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One Orthodox Church
What do you feel are the negatives and positives of having one united non specific orthodox church in the US?
Comments
Acctually, my church has a lot of new commers from Egypt so we still do use Arabic in our litergys. And i can say the same about an Ethiopian Orthodox church a friend goes to but they use thier native language.
It's in English, is traditional, apostolic and and Orthodox!
yes, that is usually the case.
The exception made in America is understandable. From a pragmatic point of view it the best deal on the table for now. Nevertheless, it is uncanonical and hopefully it will evolve into the norm – a single bishop over a certain area.
As many of you suggested the liturgy will be a challenge. Is it possible for everyone to keep their own liturgies but be under the same bishop?
In Christ
Theophilus
plus, if this were to happen i don't think it would have the same taste
This is the problem with the U.S., people want to create a culture and be all the same. Unlike here in Canada where we call ourselves multicultural and everyone is proud of his own culture.
Also, what would the hymns sound like if you say it is "non-cultural"..... a lot of our hymns are taken from Pharoanic music since we are from Egypt, and the Greek Orthodox have their music from the Greeks (i guess) ans so forth. Unless you want the music we use in this "non-cultural orthodox" to sound like the garbage in today's media - next thing you know we have hymns sounding like Hip-Hop music.
I have a question, do the British and French Orthodox churches have their own hymns and everything that suit their culture.... if they did I'd be very interested to hear a British Liturgy. I am not saying this in a bad way, i'm really interested to hear it if they do have something different. This is normal, as someone mentioned earlier, because it wouldn't be fair if we enforce our Egyptian culture on them that live in France and England. This brings us to a good point, if you are saying this for evangelism reasons then i see where you're coming from and in this case, i think it would be fine to do it; however, i wouldn't call it "non-cultural" but rather "North American" although there are still the drawbacks that were mentioned.
you know ghandi did say..and i'm parapharsin' "I would've been a Christian..if it wasn't for the Christians"
I have a question, do the British and French Orthodox churches have their own hymns and everything that suit their culture.... if they did I'd be very interested to hear a British Liturgy. I am not saying this in a bad way, i'm really interested to hear it if they do have something different. This is normal, as someone mentioned earlier, because it wouldn't be fair if we enforce our Egyptian culture on them that live in France and England. This brings us to a good point, if you are saying this for evangelism reasons then i see where you're coming from and in this case, i think it would be fine to do it; however, i wouldn't call it "non-cultural" but rather "North American" although there are still the drawbacks that were mentioned.
I believe Father Peter(or if any of you remember Anglian) had said that the British Orthodox church has the same "format" of liturgy as us, but different hymns and different tunes I believe. I hope that Father Peter can correct me if I'm mistaken.
Part of immigration process is to let go your way and absorb new ways. Applying this theory on Church would be a great idea, but unfortunately one of the features of orthodox churches is that it has lots of restraints that make this idea kind of impossible.
My assumption is that Generation Y (Millennial) and Z who speak only English will automatically change the Egyptian culture at church to an Americanized one. It is a matter of time. (I beleive the same will happen with other countries) and then, may be it would be easier to have one orthodox church.
And again you have to realize when we say one orthodox church the issue was never and is never the culture. That aspect has nothing to do with the issues that keep the orthodox churches seperated. And the seperation is between Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox based on semantics that resulted from the council of Chalcedon. Like i said before, even when we were one church, each church had its own rites and traditions and form of liturgical worship, but the faith remained the same.
Another thing I hope for will be that there is a growing sense of the urgency of evangelism within all of our local Churches, and a greater sense of responsibility for reaching out to British people in a way that they can comprehend and grow. (And of course I mean all of this for the US and Canada as well, and everywhere else in the West.
With these two movements, drawing us together and sending us out, we will surely find that at the right time God leads the bishops and faithful into developing ways in which Western people can be fully Orthodox without having to entirely take on an alien culture, and the Churches grow together so that eventually there is one Orthodox Church in each place which is also multi-cultural, probably with different parishes representing different ethnic cultures including native English speaking ones.
I hope that one of the first steps in the UK will be a local synod of all Orthodox bishops who meet with the support of their patriarchal synods to deal with the local UK Orthodox community, not only as a means of fellowship, but to slowly become the foundation of a local Orthodox multi-ethnic and multi-cultural Orthodox Church. Much or even all of the possible future developments depend on encouraging a sense of unity. My own bishop is Metropolitan Seraphim, and of course I recognise that Bishop Angaelos is a bishop of 'my' Church, but I also need to understand that the new Indian Orthodox bishop, Mar Timotheos, is also a bishop of 'my' Church, and his priests are priests of 'my' Church, and his people are 'my' brothers and sisters. We need to have joint events not only among all Coptic Orthodox in an area, but we need to make sure that we have events which all Orthodox in an area come to.
That way the development of a truly unified local Church has almost already taken place by the time any organisational changes might be considered. That way we are responding to what God has already done, rather than seeking to impose it from above. Quite clearly something like this needs to happen. It is a false ecclesiology which allows multiple bishops in the same place, if we seek to preserve such a deficient situation then we will fall into denominationalism, even a form of racism. But I don't think we need worry about how it might be resolved - that is for God to work out - as long as we seek to experience and support a growing sense of unity among all of our Orthodox brethren. If the only experience we have of Orthodoxy is within our own cultural context then we are missing out, and we will not be able to help develop a true unity.
Father Peter
lets start working together first, then each area will soon see which way they should go with regards to liturgy etc.
so, i have a challenge for you all!
he he, i always like to challenge people ;)
when did you last go to a different church?
eg indian orthodox if yr coptic, coptic if your church is greek etc etc
you know, we are the guys that can affect church unity in a BIG way, we need to meet up and share ideas and share our passion for our risen Lord who said 'this is how the world will know that you are my disciples, that you love one another'
i was speaking to my abouna yesterday and he thinks that eastern / oriental orthodox unity will happen in our time, so go out and visit the EO churches (we're not allowed to take communion yet, but it's a SMALL sacrifice for the sake of church unity) and spread the blessing of God's love.
you guys are doing really well, discussing this in a public forum, so lets put our words into action, learn a bit of greek/armenian, teach our parents/friends english (or french, dutch etc) and (this is the easier bit!) go and visit other churches! take a group of friends, youth group, Bible study group etc if your shy, or go on your own if your like me! (still shy but determined to get over it!)
GO GO GO!
:)
Christ; and the Egyptians worshipped through their culture but
in true apostolic spirit, and with the same shape of worship of
other bishoprics.
For instance, the Coptic hymns were different from the
Syrian and Latin ones... but all had the (quiet and modest spirit),
the spirit of the heavenly new hymn, containing the deepest true
dogmatic and spiritual concepts and teachings.
The (Lights) of the House of God, are another example. All
the apostolic churches in the world use lights during worship by
day and by night, especially during reading the Gospel... This is
the spirit of Tradition, which declares that Christ is the Light of
the world. The Egyptian art was evident in making the candles
of the Coptic Church, while Syrian, Latin, Greek etc. arts were
clearly shown in making theirs.
Thus, although the Orthodox Christians in the whole world
have unity of faith and preserve tradition as a living truth, but
every local church expresses this one faith by her own language,
her liturgical rites, hymns, sacred vestments etc... without
dismissing the unity of faith. The church locality has not hidden
the universal heavenly character of the Church.
In other words, the differences of traditions, in details and
not in essence do not stop the realization of the unity of the
Universal Church, as long as it has been established on the basic
unity of faith and life.
The unity between the Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox
Churches in this generation, gives a practical and accurate
lesson concerning the concept of Unity, to the theologians who
are interested in the Ecumenical Movement.
These churches have differences in some details of tradition,
but have one Faith and one Tradition. In the last years the
whole world had seen more than one time, the participation of
the Patriarchs, Bishops, Presbyters, Deacons and Laymen from
these churches in one service, giving one offer for all.
These churches must play an active role with their sisters, the
Chalcedonian Orthodox churches, to put one expression for the
one faith concerning the nature of Christ. Their views -in their
essence- have come nearer. Having done this, the Orthodox
Church should devote all her power for preaching to the whole
world.
3 - We, as an Orthodox Church -ought to think seriously of
what we should offer to the world in our preaching, when a
French man, for instance, accepts the Orthodox faith. It is our
duty to offer him how to worship in an orthodox, apostolic and
patristic mind with one spirit, but in a culture that fits him.
H.G. Gregorius, the metropolite of Newdelhi, India, in his
speech to the Orthodox Church leaders in Melbourne, said that
we have to sow Orthodox seeds in the Australian soil, so that
tree will be Orthodox Australian one(83).
4 - As the Church of Alexandria has been opened to the
outside world and thousands immigrated, the Church Mother
must study her message. She must guide and help them to
preach the Orthodox thought and life to others without any
evading from the spirit of Tradition or Rite.
She must not close herself to a local community or language
but must bear an ecumenical responsibility.
Truly, it is too accurate a mission to offer the living Tradition
to the universe with an opened heart and without any evading
or disregard. It is the urgent work of the orthodox theologians
nowadays.
--From Fr. Tadros Malaty's book.. Tradition and Orthodoxy pp. 55-57 http://www.cornerstonebookstore.org/shop/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=prodshow&ref=+Tradition+and+orthodoxy+ebook&sid=7ea1lvt511d1b25j8ih6lj77prf1a735
hope this helps :)
hos erof, i'm sorry i can't upload my paper version of the british orthodox liturgy, but i can describe it briefly.
this is how it sounds from a coptic perspective:
it is a bit shorter (never mind!) ;)
and the order looks like a mass inbetween the eastern and oriental orthodox styles.
they have the 'little entrance' (gospel), like EO, whereas we only have the 'procession of the lamb' at the beginning of the mass which seems to me to correspond to their 'great entrance'.
the music (chanting) sounds like medieval european folk music, very different to ours, while their kyrie eleisons are similar to the antiochian orthodox in tune. in fact it may all be syrian in style, but it just sounds european to me (of european descent).
they use the liturgy of st james of jerusalem, available from the british orthodox press, you can find them at http://stores.lulu.com/boc
i didn't actually find the liturgy there, but you can send them a message, and there are loads of interesting books by abba seraphim (metropolitan) who is a very learned writer and fascinating speaker. when you listen to him, you think he was actually at chalcedon and travelling with st aidan and the other saints who evangelised britain and ireland.
a note to his eminence, yes, i realise you are not actually that old! ;)
the communion is the same, i.e you receive it the same way, although the qurban and baraka seem to be in smaller pieces (though much bigger than the antiochian orthodox, who take it the eastern orthodox way together with the blood). it does feel weird not to sing 'sabehu' afterwards, otherwise the worship seems to be the same.
maybe father peter can tell us what a coptic mass looks like to him ;) i suppose it must look a bit chaotic, with loud cymbals and 3 languages and our very non-european style of the kiss of peace, which i love! i think i am becoming egyptian...
the british, of course, shake hands, anything else just wouldn't be british!
if you are in britain and you want to know if there is a british orthodox church near you, let me know and i will put you in touch, i'm very keen for us to support each other in our mission, we egyptians ;) will learn to understand british culture and the british will get great food and call everyone 'darling'!
Culture and Religion are complementary to eachother, and can coexist, they are not enemies..
I love how we can share the same faith, yet each one expresses that faith in a different way...
Some customs may be unique to one church as a result of it's unique cultural background, yet they can still be helpful for other churches of other cultures... It would be great for us to respect eachother's different cultures while preserving unity in spirit and faith
Gb
The British Orthodox Church seeks to reach British people in a culture which is more accessible to them, but it is still essentially a British-Coptic culture which we worship in. It could not be otherwise. Just as even the Coptic Church shows the marks of other ancient cultures which have influenced its development. It is, in some sense, a Copto-Graeco-Syrian culture. It is impossible to start from scratch, nor would anyone want to.
The key aspects of culture which do need to be addressed in a mission situation such as the British Orthodox Church finds itself in, and as the Coptic Church increasingly finds itself, are language, music and social culture. The other aspects of culture are much more transferable. In the British Orthodox Church we use the same services as the Coptic Orthodox Church except that our usual liturgy is the ancient liturgy of St James, which is from the Greek tradition. We chant in a much simpler manner, though we use the same hymns, and this allows visitors to join in our worship almost immediately, whatever their backgrounds. The vestments I wear are the same as Coptic ones, they came from Egypt. Probably our worship is a little more reserved, because we are British, but it is not so far from Coptic worship, because our aim is not to reject Coptic culture, but to make it accessible to British people. I think it would seem as wrong to us to try and become Egyptians while rejecting our own culture, as it would be to insist on being absolutely British and rejecting the spiritual foundation of Coptic Church culture.
Now that I am a priest, and now that I don't have my old full time job, I hope that I can get to know the local Coptic priests well, and I have been invited to the liturgy by my nearest Coptic priest. I also hope to go and visit +Angaelos soon as I have several things to talk to him about. So I am committed to an integration with the wider Coptic Church, even though I do believe that there is value in the mission of the British Orthodox Church, and that language and culture can be an obstacle to mission.
What if the Indian, Armenian, Syrian, Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox in the UK also seek to reach out to British people and also modify their culture in some way - Saturday liturgies in English perhaps, then it seems to me that there will be some convergence of approach in mission which allows these English directed missions to work together, grow together, while also being rooted in particular local Orthodox cultures. If we wish to remain here in the UK as Orthodox then we must eventually have a unified Church, and it seems to me that it is through mission to British people that the basis of a local Church culture will continue to develop that is not solely British but is a British, or several British, forms of local Orthodox worship.
Since the canons of the Church require that eventually we be one Church here in the UK and the US and Canada we had better start getting used to each other's worship. We had better start playing our part as Orthodox faithful and experience this unity now. We had better start knowing the priests and bishops of other communities.
Father Peter
I have been fortunate to participate in the worship of most of our Oriental Orthodox Churches. Not as often at Coptic liturgies as I would like because I am always busy myself on Sundays, but also Eritrean, Indian, Syrian and Armenian. My experience of the Armenian liturgy was at the enthronement of Patriarch Mesrob II of Istanbul, where I accompanied my bishop, Abba Seraphim. The wonderful thing about that event was that he was consecrated as Patriarch by bishops of all of our Oriental communion, and not only by Armenians.
Having had 15 years experience of Orthodoxy I am able to appreciate these varied forms of worship, but it is still the case that I can only fully enter into such worship if I understand it. And this is even more so for an enquirer, who is already having to overcome several cultural hurdles just to be present at our worship. Now if all of these forms were also offered in English then the obstacles are much fewer, and enquirers are able to get to the substance of what we believe and what we are offering to God. This does not mean that a community should not worship in Coptic/Arabic/Syriac/Ge'ez or whatever is their own natural language for worship, but when we set out eyes on those to whom we have been commanded to bring the Gospel then we must surely offer the Gospel in a way that can be understood.
Of course I have also worshipped in many Western forms during my lifetime, and I have learned that even these Western forms can seem odd and an obstacle to those who are enquiring about the faith, or even those who have used other forms all their lives, but at least they are usually presented in the native language of British people. Therefore I am not very much concerned about the forms as about the language. That does seem to me to be a very foundational aspect of who we are.
About the qorban, I guess we make it to an appropriate size for the congregations. If I had 200 communicants I would bake a much bigger qorban, but with 10 or 20 communicants it would be too big for reverent consumption. We use the same seal on the qorban and break it in the same way.
About the peace, I know that some/most British people prefer to shake hands, but I and others I worship with regularly pass the peace I kiss my fingers and we interlock hands. Of course I have people from different ethnic backgrounds in my own community and so their participation in sharing the peace is varied.
God bless you
Father Peter