i like history so ill give you some historical accounts of the existence of Christ outside of the Gospels. Josephus, who is jewish wrote about Christ in Antiquities of the Jews in 93 A.D. also Pliny the younger, a pagan roman wrote about how to deal with Christians, as he said " those who worship not the emporer but "Christus". and then theres Tacitus another pagan roman historian who wrote about the Christians who worshipped Christus and about how nero blamed the fire one them, and he was using the roman archives to get his information on "Christus". there are a few other pagans who mention Christ as a great and wise man. now since Christ obviously existed, according to non-Christian sources then we have to accept the Gospels and the OT prophecies concearning Him, now heres the cool part. Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies, if you just take 8 of those the probability of Him fulfilling just those 8 are 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 1x 10 to the 27th power, no human being can do that therefore Christ is God. hopefully this helps.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=8079.msg105256#msg105256 date=1249879356] i like history so ill give you some historical accounts of the existence of Christ outside of the Gospels. Josephus, who is jewish wrote about Christ in Antiquities of the Jews in 93 A.D. also Pliny the younger, a pagan roman wrote about how to deal with Christians, as he said " those who worship not the emporer but "Christus". and then theres Tacitus another pagan roman historian who wrote about the Christians who worshipped Christus and about how nero blamed the fire one them, and he was using the roman archives to get his information on "Christus". there are a few other pagans who mention Christ as a great and wise man. now since Christ obviously existed, according to non-Christian sources then we have to accept the Gospels and the OT prophecies concearning Him, now heres the cool part. Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies, if you just take 8 of those the probability of Him fulfilling just those 8 are 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 1x 10 to the 27th power, no human being can do that therefore Christ is God. hopefully this helps.
I would like to add the following to what Ioannes said:
The Roman historian Tacitus wrote, in AD 116:
Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. Ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Christianos appellabat. (15.44.2) Auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta mundique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. (15.44.3.)
The following is a translation of the above Latin text:
But, despite kindly influence, despite the leader's generous handouts, despite appeasing the gods, the scandal did not subside, rather the blaze came to be believed to be an official act. So, in order to quash the rumour, Nero blamed it on, and applied the cruellest punishments to, those sinners, whom ordinary people call Christians, hating them for their shameful behaviour. (15.44.2) The originator of this name, Christus, was sent to execution by Procurator Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius, but although checked for a moment, the deadly cult erupted again, not just in Judaea, the source of its evil, but even in Rome, where all the sins and scandals of the world gather and are glorified. (15.44.3)
Josephus: At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.
Finally, all these 'proofs' mentioned above are still worthless if one doens't have faith, and faith is a gift from God, thus just as He was the one to first reveal Himself to mankind and show them His love, He shall also help our unbelief when we ask 'Lord, I believe, help my unbelief'
It is always the case when students study about evolution. Calvary Chapel is fighting this theory and is supporting students through several DVDs and many other books that are student friendly. They are very cheap like $ 1 each and you can buy them online.
The best reference I found on the topic of Atheism and Evolution is DrDino.com. Dr. Kent Hovind in my mind is the best expert I have heard from on the topic. Click on the multimedia tab and select either "Creation Seminars" or "Debates". Dr. Hovind engaged in over 100 debates and seminars about the topic. The half dozen I have watched of him, he dispelled any doubt that *macro* evolution is the biggest farse carried out by modern society. Also, I recommend getting the movie by Ben Stein, "Expelled". Although it doesn't go into detail about proving one side or the other; however, it does an excellent job of exposing the bias in the "educational" system to STRONGLY push the evolutionary theory as fact absent of any kind of critical thinking.
Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. Ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Christianos appellabat. (15.44.2) Auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta mundique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. (15.44.3.)
The following is a translation of the above Latin text:
But, despite kindly influence, despite the leader's generous handouts, despite appeasing the gods, the scandal did not subside, rather the blaze came to be believed to be an official act. So, in order to quash the rumour, Nero blamed it on, and applied the cruellest punishments to, those sinners, whom ordinary people call Christians, hating them for their shameful behaviour. (15.44.2) The originator of this name, Christus, was sent to execution by Procurator Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius, but although checked for a moment, the deadly cult erupted again, not just in Judaea, the source of its evil, but even in Rome, where all the sins and scandals of the world gather and are glorified. (15.44.3) [/i]
Josephus: At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.
Finally, all these 'proofs' mentioned above are still worthless if one doens't have faith, and faith is a gift from God, thus just as He was the one to first reveal Himself to mankind and show them His love, He shall also help our unbelief when we ask 'Lord, I believe, help my unbelief'
God bless
thanks for that. i used that to debate an athiest, i also told him to ask himself what athiesm has done, for instance communism, an athiest ideology, has killed over 149,000,000 people, not including hitler a national socialist who killed 13,000,000. i havent gotten a response back.
Luckily I found a real piece of precious scientific documentary for a serious research and discoveries that had been challenged (for more than ten years) but no scientists could refute it on any scientific bases till now!
As a documentary it is made in a way so it's easily understood, please watch it and distribute its link. It's simply amazing, "Fingerprints of creation": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFXdqauHx3k
thanks for that. i used that to debate an athiest, i also told him to ask himself what athiesm has done, for instance communism, an athiest ideology, has killed over 149,000,000 people, not including hitler a national socialist who killed 13,000,000. i havent gotten a response back.
I don't think that's a good argument against atheism. Let's say your opponent in the debate says Christianity is false because of the crusades for instance, you should attack this argument (because the argument can be easily thrown out), and not bring op an evenly bad argument to attack atheism.
thanks for that. i used that to debate an athiest, i also told him to ask himself what athiesm has done, for instance communism, an athiest ideology, has killed over 149,000,000 people, not including hitler a national socialist who killed 13,000,000. i havent gotten a response back.
I don't think that's a good argument against atheism. Let's say your opponent in the debate says Christianity is false because of the crusades for instance, you should attack this argument (because the argument can be easily thrown out), and not bring op an evenly bad argument to attack atheism.
I have used this argument several times. For me it has held up, what IS attacked is the if the ideology is atheist in nature or not. The argument I am making is against the atheist statement "Religion has caused more bloodshed than anything else." No necessarily that atheism is not true because of this. It is more of a defense saying that the above said statement is not true, but I see what your saying.
The Bible is estimated to have been written between 1450 B.C. and 95 A.D. This chart shows scientific facts and principles referred to in the Bible, but not actually discovered by humankind until later centuries. Since people had no official knowledge or understanding of these scientific facts when the Bible was written, is this scientific proof that the Bible was inspired by God?
Scientific Fact or Principle Bible reference Date of discovery by man Both man and woman possess the seed of life Genesis 3:15 17th Century There is a place void of stars in the North Job 26:7 19th Century Earth is held in place by invisible forces Job 26:7 1650 Taxonomic classification of matter Genesis 1 1735 The Earth is round Isaiah 40:22 15th Century Day and night occur simultaneously on Earth Luke 17:34 15th Century Certain animals carry diseases harmful to man Leviticus 11 16th Century Early diagnosis of leprosy Leviticus 13 17th Century Quarantine for disease control Leviticus 13 17th Century Blood of animals carries diseases Leviticus 17 17th Century Blood is necessary for life Leviticus 17:11 19th Century Oceans have natural paths in them Psalms 8:8 1854 Earth was in nebular form initially Genesis 1:2 1911 Most seaworthy ship design ratio is 30:5:3 Genesis 6 1860 Light is a particle and has mass (a photon) Job 38:19 1932 Radio astronomy (stars give off signals) Job 38:7 1945 Oceans contain fresh water springs Job 38:16 1920 Snow has material value Job 38:22 1905, 1966 Infinite number of stars exist Genesis 15:5 1940 Dust is important to survival Isaiah 40:12 1935 Hubert Spencer's scientific principles Genesis 1 1820 Air has weight Job 28:25 16th Century Light can be split up into component colors Job 38:24 1650 Matter is made up of invisible particles Romans 1:20 20th Century Plants use sunlight to manufacture food Job 8:16 1920 Arcturus and other stars move through space Job 38:32 19th Century Water cycle Ecclesiastes 1:7 17th Century Life originated in the sea Genesis 1 19th Century Lightning and thunder are related Job 38:25 19th Century Man was the last animal created Genesis 1 15th Century
This list blew my mind as i read it and thought it would be perfect to share with you since you are struggling with atheism because of your scientific background...and i do not know if this was mentioned, i did not really read the replies but just wanted to share this.... sorry if it was already mentioned... but as you begin to delve more and more into science you will begin to realize that there must be a God...Francis crick after discovering the model of DNA realized there must be a God due to the complexity of DNA and wrote a book titled the Language of God...Albert Einstein's "biggest blunder" was his invention of the cosmological constant which proved that the universe was static(neither expanding nor contracting), and the his realization that this theory was wrong and the world was expanding and had a beginning(creation).....and i can go on and on with examples....Physics, biology, chemistry nearly every science provides evidence that there must be a God and as you begin to strengthen your relationship with God you will begin to realize his incomprehensible glory and that our minute minds will never fully grasp him and that science is our human way of trying to explain God and his creation
finally here is something i came across and found interesting about How the Bible relates to our Latest Scientific Knowledge....http://www.bibleprobe.org/science.html
Obviously, this is something serious. Your faith in Christ is on the line.
There are some questions you need to ask yourself.
How well do you undertstand the theory of evolution? If you don't, learn as much as you can. Making a decision like this, without good knowledge on the topic is wrong. It makes you ignorant.
Do you go out of your way to try to prove evolution wrong? I would have to tell you that this approach isn't necessary, and it is where many christians make the mistake. Follow the science. You will find that evolution exists to a certain extent. Where you find the gap between evolution and the beginning of life, however, is where you must place God. Whether this gap that science can't fill for you is the formation of the first cell or the initial input of the universe's energy or the formation of the first atom or the initiation of the theorized Big Bang, you need to think hard about it. Because when you obtain knowledge, you erase ignorance. Remember that God is the source of our good knowledge. He is the one who enlightens our minds. Science is not evil. It is from your God who is the source of energy. The human has discovered that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. But the human can only grasp what this energy is when they take a glimpse at the Creator. Do you understand the first chapter of Genesis? If not, take the time to read it. I found it interesting to find out how christian evolutionists interpret this chapter. It really enlightens the beginner scientist. Find out the meaning of time in genesis. (For a starter, on what day was the sun created? Doesn't the sun dictate time? What represented time before the creation of the sun? What existed before the sun? Where do these things fall in the evolutionary tree? What is the theory of plants coming on land........)
Gain knowledge. Do not be ignorant. For this is the devil's tool.
David, While I understand the logic that you used and to a certain extent agree, I do have to differ on a few points. I do agree that in order to discredit evolution you have to know it, thats a fact. I do believe that science has become evil, it isnt inherently evil. Many scientists of today accept evolution as a fact without enough evidence to support this belief. Most of this evidence has been interpreted through the mind of an evolutionist to try and pass this theory off as fact. For instance scientists use the geological column to place fossils into categories and determine the age of these fossils. The geologic column is a theory invented by Charles Lyell, that has not been proven. Scientists also allude to certain dating methods, all of them have their own particular downfall, especially when it comes to dating fossils found in layers that contain all kinds of elements that can preserve or destroy the carbon in the bones. We are then asked, why then are all the small fossils in much lower layers and the larger more complex in the top layers? We could argue that these fossils were sorted by a massive flood, which we have visual evidence of all over the world. Anywhere I have flown, even in the Sudan, I have seen evidence of massive flooding. The reason indulging in evolution, especially mixing it with religious convictions, is that it can erode the belief of a person. When someone starts believing that evolution is fact, then it contradicts what their religion teaches. Scientists make this stuff into evidence by placing their interpretation of the data onto the evidence. This is just my opinion...I could be wrong. Thanks!
We have theoretical science, currently researched science, the practical laboratory one and we have the applied science.
Science made a lot of advances so quickly in modern times, that is too fast to be all correct, especially when accompanied with what can be defined as "the supremacy of scientists" attitude.
Science must be in a state of continuous reassessment and reevaluation to be still called science, partly because what had been discovered is in fact a tiny fraction of the total knowledge to reach. In every field there are numerous question marks that are all the time arising and added daily. This is the real reason for further researches.
Science (that is interpreted by the scientists) is clearly evil in two situations: first when it is used by men for destruction instead of improvement and second when it conflicts with the word of God (good science does prove the existence and the purpose of God).
This is amplified when it is repeatedly enforced on the non scientifically oriented or the still learning students who cannot detect flaws in the details they are passively receiving.
Further, in some areas this has reached the level of taboo - not to even mention that evolution could be wrong - or else... for example I've read a few months ago that a nurse was disqualified because she dared to mention faith and prayer to comfort a patient, which disagrees with the evolution theory (because we are just another animal and there is no God), while she was known to be very successful doing her job. There is also this new trend in some medical schools to make the belief in evolution a prerequisite to the practice of medicine. I call this bullying students plain and simple.
There are some documentary clips I watched recently they are very interesting, make you wonder and help think again: Privileged planet (12 clips) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnWyPIzTOTw
Chance has nothing to do with creation because it is not chaotic and God has a purpose. Natural selection is a built-in coded mechanism for the survival of creatures helping them not to evolve but to adapt and survive the changing environments. It can lead to variations within the same type of creatures not to their morphing into different new ones. The presence of some similarities that were discovered between creatures including some DNA similarities really mean one thing: there is only one mind behind all these things, one Creator who designed and created the universe and the creatures living on our very special life supporting planet.
We are actually in a scientific dictatorship. The mere mention of anything outside of the status quo is punishable by academic persecution and character asassination.
Ioannes, you are right. This is why evolution is a theory, and its title cannot change as scientists are smart enough to recognize this. They know that they cannot take the clock, rewind, and watch the movie they theorized through something that may be attributed to hindsight bias.
My purpose, however, is not to prove evolution wrong or right.
My purpose is to make sure the ignorant or the uneducated person does not dismiss the theory by just hearing opinions like "evolution is wrong", "evolutionists are evil", or "one-time/one-phase intelligent design is the only correct model of creation."
A christian who studies herecies goes back to the bible, the church fathers, and the church authrities to study the beliefs. But the christian shouldn't stop there. The christian then goes to see what the heretic did, and points out where the heretic made the mistake.
The same process should be enacted when it comes to evolution. Your conclusion, after studying a lot of material, should then make you comfortable.
For me, (I am just a third year college student studying biochemistry and molecular biology) I still feel like I have a lot to learn. But from what I know so far, I still see God as the clear creator of life. I do not see the bible contradicting evolution (that doesn't mean I firmly believe in evolution). If evolution was proven by a time machine, I have done enough research to know that it being a fact cannot even scratch my faith in Jesus Christ.
My area of expertise is far from evolution or microbiology. I did exactly what you are talking about, did my own research, looked at the facts and honestly was confused. I really thought, "how can anyone take this seriously?". Aside from completely contradicting with scripture, this theory is just silly! The early evolutionists were clearly racist and using evolution to justify this, this is where eugenics comes from. For being a "science" I found quite a bit of speculative logic and assumptions based on interpretation of "evidence". Science has billions of years of "evidence" in which nobody observed these events, they cannot be re-created nor tested in a lab, but it is accepted. It is a make it up as you go along, just like many many other things in this day in age.
Ioannes, If you firmly believe that evolution completely contradicts the Bible, then I hope you have no trouble in persuading your thoughts the opposite side. If it works for you, then I hope you are ready with the proper knowledge. Consider this though: I don't want you to just go with the flow and assume that evolution is wrong. If you know that your God is the source of all science, and that your God cannot be proven wrong by science, and you think that you can get into a persuasive discussion with the evolutionist atheist, then I think you are strong in your faith. However, you better know your science, and you better know your bible. If you think that you can get away with saying that evolution is evil without knowing it correctly, then you don't stand a chance preaching the word of God to the evolutionist atheist.
I believe that we must not turn defensive on the topic of evolution. I believe that it makes us weak. We have God on our side, and we are better than that. Turn it into an offensive strategy. Look at how it proves God right, and maybe this will be eaier for you. Either study this theory alongside the Bible, or risk being laughed at. We are dealing with an educated society today. You have to understand that the society may know evolution, and may firmly believe in it. But it's your job, as lights of the world, salt of the earth, and stewards of Jesus Christ to tell them why God can fit. When the gentile tells you that evolution proves God wrong, I don't want you to look like a fool. You had to learn how to speak before the Holy Spirit gave you the tongue of preaching. You have to learn about evolution before the Holy Spirit gives you the words to persuade the evolutionist atheist.
I've studied in depth the theory of evolution (especially in biology and many fields, that includes biochemistry) classic or neo/modern. I've studied many and also read a lot of what's scientifically related to this theory in fields like statistics, geology and paleontology, and some in astronomy. I went through the stage of believing it's true but it was detrimental. There is no problem in studying any theory but to believe it as a scientific fact while it isn't is another thing.
From a neutral perspective I was shocked to find no real solid scientific evidence for this theory - while too many things prove its weakness and mediocrity. Then I studied it from the Christian perspective I found it cannot marry with the word of our Creator God.
There are Christians who accept it as true until otherwise - but I cannot. You may find some logical thoughts to include God within this theory as the origin of all things, only in a very distant way as the cause or the start - BUT you cannot include Jesus Christ Our Savior in it. Why? because in Genesis God says that He created Adam and Eve according to His Image, that all creation has a divine purpose and finally that the coming of Christ is tightly linked with the fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden. It is my firm belief that if all the details of God's creation as given to us in Genesis (by God who created all things) were not important to our faith He wouldn't have to describe them so clearly.
More and more scientists are finding out the problems in this theory. The most prominent of these are: uncountable irreducible complexities observed and studied in nature (that led to the strong intelligent design theory), the statistical impossibilities, the fine tuning of nature and the universe, relativity theory applied to cosmic radiation, research on "dark matter", laws of thermodynamics, entropy, the impossible temporally captured isotopes in core rocks, the earth-moon topological relationship, our sun's nuclear consumption, the discovery of many living fossils, the total absence of transitional forms (the so called missing links), the fine tuning and complexity of the simplest genetic information, the technologically advanced bio systems and bio structures, the earth's global micro ecosystem, etc. and there are more.
easier.. ..I don't want you to look like a fool
Though you address Ioannes I'll repeat what I gave many brothers before as reply: I prefer to look like a fool than risking being a fool.
I am scientifically convinced the theory of evolution is based on false science.
Even if they witness the miraculous rise of the dead some atheists will never acknowledge the metaphysical - or divine intervention.
I'm overloaded please pray for me, I had to add something here though.
John, The difference between us and the rest of creation is that God took the time to breathe into us. Why can't a being evolve and then be breathed into? Can't this make man in the image of God? Moses was raised in Egypt and there were many myths about the how creation occured (I think there's a stone or something that has all the myths wirtten). But Moses, through the enlightenment by the Holy Spirit, recorded the story of creation identical to the way in which scientists uncover the theory of evolution. (he didn't pick the one that said Darth Vader came with his lightsaver and carved a cube into the shape of the earth)
Also, I don't believe in probability as useful in this subject. It is a measure of hindsight-bias. As you are sitting in your room, I challenge you to do this math: What is the probability of all the elements that form the products of your room (your TV, your computer, your books, your desk, your lamp, etc.) having the orientation they have now? The answer is 1 because it presently happens. Now, go back 2 million years and make the prediction of this occurence. You will find its occurence almost impossible (you'd have to make all those elements from your TV (made in China), your computer (made in Japan), your desk (made in Indonesia) etc. come to the same place at the same time.)
You are right though. To believe in it as a scientific fact would be pushing it. Ironically, I believe the word that connects evolutionists and evolution is faith.
Why can't a being evolve and then be breathed into?
Let us read verses that the Lord has revealed in Genesis 1 and 2 (NKJV): 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. ... 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. 23 And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.”
God is spirit so He created a spirit for Adam according to His image (He also created a spirit for the woman Eve he made from Adam's rib). This strongly shows that the Lord created the man in many ways differently from other animals (though from the same dust) so the man's body accommodated, united and interacted with his spirit as one person, ... 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
the above verse explains that after Adam was fully created God started the man's life by breathing into his nostrils the breath of life (after He created the spirit and body).
These highly detailed events were given to us as inspired by the Lord who created man.
To summarize.. That's obviously not what's repeatedly inferred by the racist evolution theory. And, was Adam created a suckling baby or an productive adult? Was he alone at 1st or not?
In response to your 'challenge': at home it is by personal will(s) that we bought the specific sets and made their specific arrangements in the room. Even given eight billions years won't make that situation happen.
My turn to challenge you:
But Moses, through the enlightenment by the Holy Spirit, recorded the story of creation identical to the way in which scientists uncover the theory of evolution
can you fully explain this claim?
To reply more later..
Ioannes, Sorry for offending you by replying above, it's because such a comment was sent to me many times - till I found I have to make a choice and answer back. Sorry again bro.
I believe that you are making the assumption that God made man by sculpting him out of dust like an artist would carve a sculpture. After this was done, God breathed into him. It is an assumption equal to the assumption of evolution.
You're right that personal wills bring those things in your room. But that would go into the calculation. (what was the probability that you would want that computer and find it and afford it and buy it and place it on your desk etc.) This answer is like saying it is by energetically favorable chemical reactions that the first cell was formed "probably" formed.
To answer your question in a limited way:
-In gen 1:10 The water is gather together. In gen 1:11 plants arise. The theory of evolution predicts that the water was the solution for a favorable chemical reaction that formed the first cell. After this more complex organisms arose. The theory predicts that it was bacteria and plants that arose first (these forms of life have the ability to survive without oxygen). Oxygen then began to accumulate in the atmosphere (which is needed for more complex organisms to survive ie. animals)
-In gen 1:20 the water is allowed to abound with living creatures. After this, other life forms abound on the land. Evolution predicts that life evolved from the water.
I'm pretty sure you can find a better answer than that just by searching evolution and the bible.
God made man by sculpting him out of dust like an artist would carve a sculpture. After this was done, God breathed into him.
Please read carefully, Isaiah 64:8 [NKJV] But now, O LORD, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand.
and Isaiah 29:16 Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, “He did not make me”? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?
So in your opinion the theory "predicts" what the Lord had already told us?!
Let me remind you that the Lord created the earth before the sun then He shaped it to be inhabited. He separated land from seas then on the 3rd day He created plants including 'higher' fruity plants before aquatic life started along with flying creatures on the 5th day - that is birds before all the land (walking) creatures created on the 6th day, including the first man.
Genesis 1 20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
The red colored text: to emphasize that God told us He created all the creature kinds, uni or multi cellular (meaning also all major branches) at the same time: all the aquatic, all the flying etc. It is actually a must for maintaining the ecological balance.
When someone starts believing that evolution is fact, then it contradicts what their religion teaches. Scientists make this stuff into evidence by placing their interpretation of the data onto the evidence.
Various atrocities have been done in the name of science. Sterilizations, Tuskegee Experiment, Mass Radiation Poisoning of Sephardi Jews, Holocaust. Need I go on... Hundreds more could be done based on the body of science we have today. How do you know this is not occurring under a blanket of justifications? How many took the Swine Flu Vaccine. Why did not everyone take it? Think about that for yourself. Adolf Hitler, Margaret Sanger, Bertrand Russell and many more have a common ideology that is bolstered by a pseudo-science that is Eugenics. What spearheaded the development of Eugenics? Why Evolution of course. They needed a reason for their own feelings of superiority did they not?
Here is another commonly discussed scientific issue. Anthropogenic (Induced by humans) Climate Change. What will the Copenhagen Conference do but impoverish the West even further? Why is denying Man Made Global Warming akin to Holocaust denial? Why are those scientists that have evidence pointing to the contrary being persecuted?
The PR Machine is why.
Gog and Magog ladies and gentlemen. Break free from the Citadel that entraps your mind.
My brother, to give up Christ is to lose, and to be an atheist is to gain nothing at all. Let us imagine for a moment that you decide to be an atheist, and you died. If atheism is true, nothing is going to happen. You will not be around to tell the Christian "I told you so". There will be no "atheist heaven" for those who become atheists! You will simply cease to exist for all eternity. Now, if atheism is false, and here you are standing in front of Christ in all of His glory,.... I cannot imagine how a person in that case would feel like!!! You WILL crap your pants!!! You won't have any intestines in you, or any food, or any thing physical; but you will still crap your pants...!!!!! :o
Even with a little bit of logic, we can easily say that God exists! The ultiamte question is where did the universe come from??? Almost all scientists agree that the universe began about 13.5 billion years ago in an event known as the Big Bang. Now we can & must ask where did this Big Bang come from! Our options are very few: 1- we can say it came from nothing. 2- we can say it came from an unkown thing " X ". 3- we can say the universe always existed. 4- we can say it came from an eternal, intelligent, personal, all-pwerful being (God).
1 is completly ridiculous! Because from nothing comes nothing!! That one is a no-brainer..!! 2 takes us in infinite circles, because now we have to ask where did " X " come from! 3 is not supported by any modern science. Also, if you understand astronomy & the life of stars, you will see that the day is comming when all hydrogen will be fused up into heavey elements, & no more stars can form. Now if the universe is eternal, than why didn't this already come to pass?? It makes no sense.
4 is our most logical option. I admit, it doesn't make perfect sense either, but you would be retarded if you picked 1,2, or 3!!!
Now, when it comes to biology, it makes no difference how God chose to create us. We all know that no one discovered how life started. Even comming up with a bunch of organic molecules (miller urey experiment) is like comming up with some nuts & bolts for building an Enzo Ferrari!! Also, we don't know which part of the cell came first. Remember, that a cell needs all of its parts to be functional & to reproduce. Now how did it get all of its complex parts at the same time to function??? How do you get DNA without protiens, and how do you get protiens without DNA?? Short of like what came first the chicken or the egg???! Remember, the Bible is a spiritual book, it was never ment to be scientific. Imagine God telling the early Jews about evolution, electrons, or how cells function!!! The Bible would have been 100 times thicker than it is now!!! God's primary concern is that we love & choose Him, and learn to love & worship Him!
Finally, add up all of the evidence for Christ & you will see that Christianity has the most chance of being true. We cannot come up with a 100% scientific proof that Christianity is true. And this idea comes from the Bible. Hebrews 11:6 says: " 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."
What a perfect verse! It almost seems as if the writer of Hebrews knew that in the end many will come & deny the existance of God! It clearly says, those who will find God are only those who truly need Him & are willing to live by faith. It would be even better if you read the whole chapter.
Two points I believe are true: 1- God is a personal eternal being who loves others and wants to have the strongest relationship possible with others. Others meaning you & me. This is clear from many Bible verses. God could program us like robots to "love & worship" Him, but that would be fake right ?? It is like falling in love with and marrying a mannequin!!! So God created us and gives us free will. As history shows, humans used their free will to kill, hate, steal, trick, love things other than God, do many other things, and to love God. That is how God chooses for Himself a people. He only wants people who truly love Him & want nothing more than to please Him because He deserves it. 2- I am starting to believe that God designed this universe and this life of ours to divide people into two groups: those who choose God, & those who don't. Those who don't choose God do so because they don't care, think He does not exist or care, mad at God because of a tragic moment in their life, have other gods in their lives, or think that science proved the Bible wrong and their is no more need for God. Those people, through some kind of logic, decided they do not need God. We could write all kinds of reasons & ideas as to why people reject God one way or another. But the bottom line is, for those people, God is useless to them.
Now those who choose God do so because they enjoy worshiping Him, love Him, know that they need Him, know that without Him there is no eternal life, know that without Him there is no ultimate justice, they are happy with Him, they love others & are peaceful, and they know that with God, life has a great meaning. Some even accept God even though they admit that they are not convinced of every thing in the Bible; like the creation account or the flood, or some of the history in the Bible. Those people live and accept God by faith. And that is what God demands of us. The Bible says it is impossible to please God without faith. Need I underline the word "impossible"? Also, if we look at most of the stories in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, we see God tellings us don't trust man, trust Me, obey Me, & live by faith. This idea also reminds me of the verse that says, " be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Revelations 2:10". So we may come across ideas that hurt our faith in God, but we still won't give God up. Because to give Him up means, no eternal life, no meaning in this life, and no true happiness. And that is the primary reason why atheism (an ideology that is rapidly increasing in our secular society) is a hopeless philosophy. Again, atheism is a tragic, hopeless, philosophy that implies that the universe came from nothing, that all of humanity will one day no longer exist, and that our life is nothing more than a 1 in a trillion trillion trillion accident. So, why would God accept any of the other people who rejected Him even if they were "good people"? Those people do not need God enough. They want everything to be "scientifcally proven" and they want concrete evidence. They refuse to listen to God and live by faith. And our faith is not completely blind. There is evidence for the Christ, you just have to look for it. Another idea is that most people have become used to the idea of us knowing everything. That is not true. There is much we don't know about every thing from history to quantum mechanics. So it looks like those people don't want God and so they do not deserve to be with Him. They belong in hell. Now hell for the devil & his angels is all fire and suffering. But just maybe, hell won't be an eternal torture for those "good people". They will simply not have the happiness & the wonderful relationship with God that Christians will have. Now I also believe God is just & fair. We will have people who have never heard about Christ. Maybe they lived 2000 years BC in China. They had no chance to hear about Christ. Surly God would not treat them the same as He does us. They will be judged by their own moral standard. Maybe also God knows which of them would have accepted Him and which would have rejected Him. These are some general ideas of topics that could take up many books! And God has used many people to help bring the Christian message to others.
Remember, the bottom line is, it is your choice. God will never force you to choose Him.
Here is a great website: www.reasonablefaith.org You can log in for free and read & listen to many important topics in Christianity.
Christ bless!
If you have any questions or other ideas please ask me!!
Comments
i like history so ill give you some historical accounts of the existence of Christ outside of the Gospels. Josephus, who is jewish wrote about Christ in Antiquities of the Jews in 93 A.D. also Pliny the younger, a pagan roman wrote about how to deal with Christians, as he said " those who worship not the emporer but "Christus". and then theres Tacitus another pagan roman historian who wrote about the Christians who worshipped Christus and about how nero blamed the fire one them, and he was using the roman archives to get his information on "Christus". there are a few other pagans who mention Christ as a great and wise man. now since Christ obviously existed, according to non-Christian sources then we have to accept the Gospels and the OT prophecies concearning Him, now heres the cool part. Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies, if you just take 8 of those the probability of Him fulfilling just those 8 are 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 1x 10 to the 27th power, no human being can do that therefore Christ is God. hopefully this helps.
I would like to add the following to what Ioannes said:
The Roman historian Tacitus wrote, in AD 116:
Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. Ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Christianos appellabat. (15.44.2) Auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta mundique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. (15.44.3.)
The following is a translation of the above Latin text:
But, despite kindly influence, despite the leader's generous handouts, despite appeasing the gods, the scandal did not subside, rather the blaze came to be believed to be an official act. So, in order to quash the rumour, Nero blamed it on, and applied the cruellest punishments to, those sinners, whom ordinary people call Christians, hating them for their shameful behaviour. (15.44.2) The originator of this name, Christus, was sent to execution by Procurator Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius, but although checked for a moment, the deadly cult erupted again, not just in Judaea, the source of its evil, but even in Rome, where all the sins and scandals of the world gather and are glorified. (15.44.3)
Josephus:
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.
I also found this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/pliny.html
Finally, all these 'proofs' mentioned above are still worthless if one doens't have faith, and faith is a gift from God, thus just as He was the one to first reveal Himself to mankind and show them His love, He shall also help our unbelief when we ask 'Lord, I believe, help my unbelief'
God bless
http://store.calvarychapel.com/cccm_store_/catalog/display.php?cat=34&zid=1&lid=1&nlst=&olimit=0&key1=&psku=
God bless
Here's some other quick references:
Psalm 19:1, http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/galaxy/
Isaiah 40:22, Job 26: 7
Get the book "Scientific Facts in the Bible" for more references.
God bless!
Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. Ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Christianos appellabat. (15.44.2) Auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta mundique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. (15.44.3.)
The following is a translation of the above Latin text:
But, despite kindly influence, despite the leader's generous handouts, despite appeasing the gods, the scandal did not subside, rather the blaze came to be believed to be an official act. So, in order to quash the rumour, Nero blamed it on, and applied the cruellest punishments to, those sinners, whom ordinary people call Christians, hating them for their shameful behaviour. (15.44.2) The originator of this name, Christus, was sent to execution by Procurator Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius, but although checked for a moment, the deadly cult erupted again, not just in Judaea, the source of its evil, but even in Rome, where all the sins and scandals of the world gather and are glorified. (15.44.3) [/i]
Josephus:
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.
I also found this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/pliny.html
Finally, all these 'proofs' mentioned above are still worthless if one doens't have faith, and faith is a gift from God, thus just as He was the one to first reveal Himself to mankind and show them His love, He shall also help our unbelief when we ask 'Lord, I believe, help my unbelief'
God bless
thanks for that. i used that to debate an athiest, i also told him to ask himself what athiesm has done, for instance communism, an athiest ideology, has killed over 149,000,000 people, not including hitler a national socialist who killed 13,000,000. i havent gotten a response back.
http://old.orthodoxsermons.org/dmdocuments/W.O.W.HSBoys3.mp3
if u want more sermons www.orthodoxsermons.org
http://orthodoxsermons.org/sermons/crisis-faith-part-2
http://orthodoxsermons.org/sermons/crisis-faith-part-3
http://orthodoxsermons.org/sermons/crisis-faith-part-4
As a documentary it is made in a way so it's easily understood, please watch it and distribute its link. It's simply amazing, "Fingerprints of creation":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFXdqauHx3k
This one is also an interesting compilation of documentary clips "Facts of creation":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw-HxD8HVNI
All are in English.
GBU
thanks for that. i used that to debate an athiest, i also told him to ask himself what athiesm has done, for instance communism, an athiest ideology, has killed over 149,000,000 people, not including hitler a national socialist who killed 13,000,000. i havent gotten a response back.
I don't think that's a good argument against atheism. Let's say your opponent in the debate says Christianity is false because of the crusades for instance, you should attack this argument (because the argument can be easily thrown out), and not bring op an evenly bad argument to attack atheism.
How is everything? Please update us :)
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=8079.msg105449#msg105449 date=1250319079]
thanks for that. i used that to debate an athiest, i also told him to ask himself what athiesm has done, for instance communism, an athiest ideology, has killed over 149,000,000 people, not including hitler a national socialist who killed 13,000,000. i havent gotten a response back.
I don't think that's a good argument against atheism. Let's say your opponent in the debate says Christianity is false because of the crusades for instance, you should attack this argument (because the argument can be easily thrown out), and not bring op an evenly bad argument to attack atheism.
I have used this argument several times. For me it has held up, what IS attacked is the if the ideology is atheist in nature or not. The argument I am making is against the atheist statement "Religion has caused more bloodshed than anything else." No necessarily that atheism is not true because of this. It is more of a defense saying that the above said statement is not true, but I see what your saying.
Scientific Fact or Principle Bible reference Date of discovery by man
Both man and woman possess the seed of life Genesis 3:15 17th Century
There is a place void of stars in the North Job 26:7 19th Century
Earth is held in place by invisible forces Job 26:7 1650
Taxonomic classification of matter Genesis 1 1735
The Earth is round Isaiah 40:22 15th Century
Day and night occur simultaneously on Earth Luke 17:34 15th Century
Certain animals carry diseases harmful to man Leviticus 11 16th Century
Early diagnosis of leprosy Leviticus 13 17th Century
Quarantine for disease control Leviticus 13 17th Century
Blood of animals carries diseases Leviticus 17 17th Century
Blood is necessary for life Leviticus 17:11 19th Century
Oceans have natural paths in them Psalms 8:8 1854
Earth was in nebular form initially Genesis 1:2 1911
Most seaworthy ship design ratio is 30:5:3 Genesis 6 1860
Light is a particle and has mass (a photon) Job 38:19 1932
Radio astronomy (stars give off signals) Job 38:7 1945
Oceans contain fresh water springs Job 38:16 1920
Snow has material value Job 38:22 1905, 1966
Infinite number of stars exist Genesis 15:5 1940
Dust is important to survival Isaiah 40:12 1935
Hubert Spencer's scientific principles Genesis 1 1820
Air has weight Job 28:25 16th Century
Light can be split up into component colors Job 38:24 1650
Matter is made up of invisible particles Romans 1:20 20th Century
Plants use sunlight to manufacture food Job 8:16 1920
Arcturus and other stars move through space Job 38:32 19th Century
Water cycle Ecclesiastes 1:7 17th Century
Life originated in the sea Genesis 1 19th Century
Lightning and thunder are related Job 38:25 19th Century
Man was the last animal created Genesis 1 15th Century
This list blew my mind as i read it and thought it would be perfect to share with you since you are struggling with atheism because of your scientific background...and i do not know if this was mentioned, i did not really read the replies but just wanted to share this.... sorry if it was already mentioned... but as you begin to delve more and more into science you will begin to realize that there must be a God...Francis crick after discovering the model of DNA realized there must be a God due to the complexity of DNA and wrote a book titled the Language of God...Albert Einstein's "biggest blunder" was his invention of the cosmological constant which proved that the universe was static(neither expanding nor contracting), and the his realization that this theory was wrong and the world was expanding and had a beginning(creation).....and i can go on and on with examples....Physics, biology, chemistry nearly every science provides evidence that there must be a God and as you begin to strengthen your relationship with God you will begin to realize his incomprehensible glory and that our minute minds will never fully grasp him and that science is our human way of trying to explain God and his creation
finally here is something i came across and found interesting about How the Bible relates to our Latest Scientific Knowledge....http://www.bibleprobe.org/science.html
Hope this helps, God bless.
Obviously, this is something serious. Your faith in Christ is on the line.
There are some questions you need to ask yourself.
How well do you undertstand the theory of evolution? If you don't, learn as much as you can. Making a decision like this, without good knowledge on the topic is wrong. It makes you ignorant.
Do you go out of your way to try to prove evolution wrong? I would have to tell you that this approach isn't necessary, and it is where many christians make the mistake. Follow the science. You will find that evolution exists to a certain extent. Where you find the gap between evolution and the beginning of life, however, is where you must place God. Whether this gap that science can't fill for you is the formation of the first cell or the initial input of the universe's energy or the formation of the first atom or the initiation of the theorized Big Bang, you need to think hard about it. Because when you obtain knowledge, you erase ignorance.
Remember that God is the source of our good knowledge. He is the one who enlightens our minds. Science is not evil. It is from your God who is the source of energy. The human has discovered that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. But the human can only grasp what this energy is when they take a glimpse at the Creator.
Do you understand the first chapter of Genesis? If not, take the time to read it. I found it interesting to find out how christian evolutionists interpret this chapter. It really enlightens the beginner scientist. Find out the meaning of time in genesis. (For a starter, on what day was the sun created? Doesn't the sun dictate time? What represented time before the creation of the sun? What existed before the sun? Where do these things fall in the evolutionary tree? What is the theory of plants coming on land........)
Gain knowledge. Do not be ignorant. For this is the devil's tool.
Science made a lot of advances so quickly in modern times, that is too fast to be all correct, especially when accompanied with what can be defined as "the supremacy of scientists" attitude.
Science must be in a state of continuous reassessment and reevaluation to be still called science, partly because what had been discovered is in fact a tiny fraction of the total knowledge to reach. In every field there are numerous question marks that are all the time arising and added daily. This is the real reason for further researches.
Science (that is interpreted by the scientists) is clearly evil in two situations: first when it is used by men for destruction instead of improvement and second when it conflicts with the word of God (good science does prove the existence and the purpose of God).
This is amplified when it is repeatedly enforced on the non scientifically oriented or the still learning students who cannot detect flaws in the details they are passively receiving.
Further, in some areas this has reached the level of taboo - not to even mention that evolution could be wrong - or else... for example I've read a few months ago that a nurse was disqualified because she dared to mention faith and prayer to comfort a patient, which disagrees with the evolution theory (because we are just another animal and there is no God), while she was known to be very successful doing her job. There is also this new trend in some medical schools to make the belief in evolution a prerequisite to the practice of medicine. I call this bullying students plain and simple.
There are some documentary clips I watched recently they are very interesting, make you wonder and help think again:
Privileged planet (12 clips)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnWyPIzTOTw
Chance has nothing to do with creation because it is not chaotic and God has a purpose. Natural selection is a built-in coded mechanism for the survival of creatures helping them not to evolve but to adapt and survive the changing environments. It can lead to variations within the same type of creatures not to their morphing into different new ones. The presence of some similarities that were discovered between creatures including some DNA similarities really mean one thing: there is only one mind behind all these things, one Creator who designed and created the universe and the creatures living on our very special life supporting planet.
GBU
My purpose, however, is not to prove evolution wrong or right.
My purpose is to make sure the ignorant or the uneducated person does not dismiss the theory by just hearing opinions like "evolution is wrong", "evolutionists are evil", or "one-time/one-phase intelligent design is the only correct model of creation."
A christian who studies herecies goes back to the bible, the church fathers, and the church authrities to study the beliefs. But the christian shouldn't stop there. The christian then goes to see what the heretic did, and points out where the heretic made the mistake.
The same process should be enacted when it comes to evolution. Your conclusion, after studying a lot of material, should then make you comfortable.
For me, (I am just a third year college student studying biochemistry and molecular biology) I still feel like I have a lot to learn. But from what I know so far, I still see God as the clear creator of life. I do not see the bible contradicting evolution (that doesn't mean I firmly believe in evolution). If evolution was proven by a time machine, I have done enough research to know that it being a fact cannot even scratch my faith in Jesus Christ.
if you would like to hear my song based on my idea of science goto:
http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=516804&t=7495
If you firmly believe that evolution completely contradicts the Bible, then I hope you have no trouble in persuading your thoughts the opposite side. If it works for you, then I hope you are ready with the proper knowledge.
Consider this though:
I don't want you to just go with the flow and assume that evolution is wrong. If you know that your God is the source of all science, and that your God cannot be proven wrong by science, and you think that you can get into a persuasive discussion with the evolutionist atheist, then I think you are strong in your faith. However, you better know your science, and you better know your bible. If you think that you can get away with saying that evolution is evil without knowing it correctly, then you don't stand a chance preaching the word of God to the evolutionist atheist.
I believe that we must not turn defensive on the topic of evolution. I believe that it makes us weak. We have God on our side, and we are better than that. Turn it into an offensive strategy. Look at how it proves God right, and maybe this will be eaier for you.
Either study this theory alongside the Bible, or risk being laughed at. We are dealing with an educated society today.
You have to understand that the society may know evolution, and may firmly believe in it. But it's your job, as lights of the world, salt of the earth, and stewards of Jesus Christ to tell them why God can fit.
When the gentile tells you that evolution proves God wrong, I don't want you to look like a fool.
You had to learn how to speak before the Holy Spirit gave you the tongue of preaching. You have to learn about evolution before the Holy Spirit gives you the words to persuade the evolutionist atheist.
I've studied in depth the theory of evolution (especially in biology and many fields, that includes biochemistry) classic or neo/modern. I've studied many and also read a lot of what's scientifically related to this theory in fields like statistics, geology and paleontology, and some in astronomy. I went through the stage of believing it's true but it was detrimental. There is no problem in studying any theory but to believe it as a scientific fact while it isn't is another thing.
From a neutral perspective I was shocked to find no real solid scientific evidence for this theory - while too many things prove its weakness and mediocrity. Then I studied it from the Christian perspective I found it cannot marry with the word of our Creator God.
There are Christians who accept it as true until otherwise - but I cannot. You may find some logical thoughts to include God within this theory as the origin of all things, only in a very distant way as the cause or the start - BUT you cannot include Jesus Christ Our Savior in it. Why? because in Genesis God says that He created Adam and Eve according to His Image, that all creation has a divine purpose and finally that the coming of Christ is tightly linked with the fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden. It is my firm belief that if all the details of God's creation as given to us in Genesis (by God who created all things) were not important to our faith He wouldn't have to describe them so clearly.
More and more scientists are finding out the problems in this theory.
The most prominent of these are: uncountable irreducible complexities observed and studied in nature (that led to the strong intelligent design theory), the statistical impossibilities, the fine tuning of nature and the universe, relativity theory applied to cosmic radiation, research on "dark matter", laws of thermodynamics, entropy, the impossible temporally captured isotopes in core rocks, the earth-moon topological relationship, our sun's nuclear consumption, the discovery of many living fossils, the total absence of transitional forms (the so called missing links), the fine tuning and complexity of the simplest genetic information, the technologically advanced bio systems and bio structures, the earth's global micro ecosystem, etc. and there are more. Though you address Ioannes I'll repeat what I gave many brothers before as reply: I prefer to look like a fool than risking being a fool.
I am scientifically convinced the theory of evolution is based on false science.
Even if they witness the miraculous rise of the dead some atheists will never acknowledge the metaphysical - or divine intervention.
I'm overloaded please pray for me, I had to add something here though.
GBU
The difference between us and the rest of creation is that God took the time to breathe into us. Why can't a being evolve and then be breathed into? Can't this make man in the image of God?
Moses was raised in Egypt and there were many myths about the how creation occured (I think there's a stone or something that has all the myths wirtten). But Moses, through the enlightenment by the Holy Spirit, recorded the story of creation identical to the way in which scientists uncover the theory of evolution. (he didn't pick the one that said Darth Vader came with his lightsaver and carved a cube into the shape of the earth)
Also, I don't believe in probability as useful in this subject. It is a measure of hindsight-bias.
As you are sitting in your room, I challenge you to do this math:
What is the probability of all the elements that form the products of your room (your TV, your computer, your books, your desk, your lamp, etc.) having the orientation they have now? The answer is 1 because it presently happens. Now, go back 2 million years and make the prediction of this occurence. You will find its occurence almost impossible (you'd have to make all those elements from your TV (made in China), your computer (made in Japan), your desk (made in Indonesia) etc. come to the same place at the same time.)
You are right though. To believe in it as a scientific fact would be pushing it.
Ironically, I believe the word that connects evolutionists and evolution is faith.
1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
...
2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
God is spirit so He created a spirit for Adam according to His image (He also created a spirit for the woman Eve he made from Adam's rib). This strongly shows that the Lord created the man in many ways differently from other animals (though from the same dust) so the man's body accommodated, united and interacted with his spirit as one person,
...
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
the above verse explains that after Adam was fully created God started the man's life by breathing into his nostrils the breath of life (after He created the spirit and body).
These highly detailed events were given to us as inspired by the Lord who created man.
To summarize.. That's obviously not what's repeatedly inferred by the racist evolution theory. And, was Adam created a suckling baby or an productive adult? Was he alone at 1st or not?
In response to your 'challenge': at home it is by personal will(s) that we bought the specific sets and made their specific arrangements in the room. Even given eight billions years won't make that situation happen.
My turn to challenge you: can you fully explain this claim?
To reply more later..
Ioannes,
Sorry for offending you by replying above, it's because such a comment was sent to me many times - till I found I have to make a choice and answer back. Sorry again bro.
GBU
I believe that you are making the assumption that God made man by sculpting him out of dust like an artist would carve a sculpture. After this was done, God breathed into him. It is an assumption equal to the assumption of evolution.
You're right that personal wills bring those things in your room. But that would go into the calculation. (what was the probability that you would want that computer and find it and afford it and buy it and place it on your desk etc.) This answer is like saying it is by energetically favorable chemical reactions that the first cell was formed "probably" formed.
To answer your question in a limited way:
-In gen 1:10 The water is gather together. In gen 1:11 plants arise.
The theory of evolution predicts that the water was the solution for a favorable chemical reaction that formed the first cell. After this more complex organisms arose. The theory predicts that it was bacteria and plants that arose first (these forms of life have the ability to survive without oxygen). Oxygen then began to accumulate in the atmosphere (which is needed for more complex organisms to survive ie. animals)
-In gen 1:20 the water is allowed to abound with living creatures. After this, other life forms abound on the land.
Evolution predicts that life evolved from the water.
I'm pretty sure you can find a better answer than that just by searching evolution and the bible.
That's it? That's far from convincing. Only found numerous points of disagreement between evolution and the Bible.
I understand if you do not reconsider right now... perhaps we'll discuss this topic later. Meanwhile, wish you finish well your studies.
GBU
But now, O LORD, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand.
and Isaiah 29:16
Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, “He did not make me”? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?
So in your opinion the theory "predicts" what the Lord had already told us?!
Let me remind you that the Lord created the earth before the sun then He shaped it to be inhabited. He separated land from seas then on the 3rd day He created plants including 'higher' fruity plants before aquatic life started along with flying creatures on the 5th day - that is birds before all the land (walking) creatures created on the 6th day, including the first man.
Genesis 1
20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
The red colored text: to emphasize that God told us He created all the creature kinds, uni or multi cellular (meaning also all major branches) at the same time: all the aquatic, all the flying etc. It is actually a must for maintaining the ecological balance. Ioannes, I agree with you.
GBU
Here is another commonly discussed scientific issue. Anthropogenic (Induced by humans) Climate Change. What will the Copenhagen Conference do but impoverish the West even further? Why is denying Man Made Global Warming akin to Holocaust denial? Why are those scientists that have evidence pointing to the contrary being persecuted?
The PR Machine is why.
Gog and Magog ladies and gentlemen. Break free from the Citadel that entraps your mind.
Let us imagine for a moment that you decide to be an atheist, and you died. If atheism is true, nothing is going to happen. You will not be around to tell the Christian "I told you so". There will be no "atheist heaven" for those who become atheists! You will simply cease to exist for all eternity. Now, if atheism is false, and here you are standing in front of Christ in all of His glory,.... I cannot imagine how a person in that case would feel like!!! You WILL crap your pants!!! You won't have any intestines in you, or any food, or any thing physical; but you will still crap your pants...!!!!! :o
Even with a little bit of logic, we can easily say that God exists! The ultiamte question is where did the universe come from??? Almost all scientists agree that the universe began about 13.5 billion years ago in an event known as the Big Bang. Now we can & must ask where did this Big Bang come from! Our options are very few:
1- we can say it came from nothing.
2- we can say it came from an unkown thing " X ".
3- we can say the universe always existed.
4- we can say it came from an eternal, intelligent, personal, all-pwerful being (God).
1 is completly ridiculous! Because from nothing comes nothing!! That one is a no-brainer..!!
2 takes us in infinite circles, because now we have to ask where did " X " come from!
3 is not supported by any modern science. Also, if you understand astronomy & the life of stars, you will see that the day is comming when all hydrogen will be fused up into heavey elements, & no more stars can form. Now if the universe is eternal, than why didn't this already come to pass?? It makes no sense.
4 is our most logical option. I admit, it doesn't make perfect sense either, but you would be retarded if you picked 1,2, or 3!!!
Now, when it comes to biology, it makes no difference how God chose to create us.
We all know that no one discovered how life started. Even comming up with a bunch of organic molecules (miller urey experiment) is like comming up with some nuts & bolts for building an Enzo Ferrari!! Also, we don't know which part of the cell came first. Remember, that a cell needs all of its parts to be functional & to reproduce. Now how did it get all of its complex parts at the same time to function??? How do you get DNA without protiens, and how do you get protiens without DNA?? Short of like what came first the chicken or the egg???! Remember, the Bible is a spiritual book, it was never ment to be scientific. Imagine God telling the early Jews about evolution, electrons, or how cells function!!! The Bible would have been 100 times thicker than it is now!!! God's primary concern is that we love & choose Him, and learn to love & worship Him!
Finally, add up all of the evidence for Christ & you will see that Christianity has the most chance of being true. We cannot come up with a 100% scientific proof that Christianity is true. And this idea comes from the Bible. Hebrews 11:6 says: " 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."
What a perfect verse! It almost seems as if the writer of Hebrews knew that in the end many will come & deny the existance of God! It clearly says, those who will find God are only those who truly need Him & are willing to live by faith. It would be even better if you read the whole chapter.
Two points I believe are true:
1- God is a personal eternal being who loves others and wants to have the strongest relationship possible with others. Others meaning you & me.
This is clear from many Bible verses. God could program us like robots to "love & worship" Him, but that would be fake right ?? It is like falling in love with and marrying a mannequin!!! So God created us and gives us free will. As history shows, humans used their free will to kill, hate, steal, trick, love things other than God, do many other things, and to love God. That is how God chooses for Himself a people. He only wants people who truly love Him & want nothing more than to please Him because He deserves it.
2- I am starting to believe that God designed this universe and this life of ours to divide people into two groups: those who choose God, & those who don't. Those who don't choose God do so because they don't care, think He does not exist or care, mad at God because of a tragic moment in their life, have other gods in their lives, or think that science proved the Bible wrong and their is no more need for God. Those people, through some kind of logic, decided they do not need God. We could write all kinds of reasons & ideas as to why people reject God one way or another. But the bottom line is, for those people, God is useless to them.
Now those who choose God do so because they enjoy worshiping Him, love Him, know that they need Him, know that without Him there is no eternal life, know that without Him there is no ultimate justice, they are happy with Him, they love others & are peaceful, and they know that with God, life has a great meaning.
Some even accept God even though they admit that they are not convinced of every thing in the Bible; like the creation account or the flood, or some of the history in the Bible. Those people live and accept God by faith. And that is what God demands of us. The Bible says it is impossible to please God without faith. Need I underline the word "impossible"?
Also, if we look at most of the stories in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, we see God tellings us don't trust man, trust Me, obey Me, & live by faith.
This idea also reminds me of the verse that says, " be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Revelations 2:10".
So we may come across ideas that hurt our faith in God, but we still won't give God up. Because to give Him up means, no eternal life, no meaning in this life, and no true happiness. And that is the primary reason why atheism (an ideology that is rapidly increasing in our secular society) is a hopeless philosophy. Again, atheism is a tragic, hopeless, philosophy that implies that the universe came from nothing, that all of humanity will one day no longer exist, and that our life is nothing more than a 1 in a trillion trillion trillion accident.
So, why would God accept any of the other people who rejected Him even if they were "good people"? Those people do not need God enough. They want everything to be "scientifcally proven" and they want concrete evidence. They refuse to listen to God and live by faith. And our faith is not completely blind. There is evidence for the Christ, you just have to look for it. Another idea is that most people have become used to the idea of us knowing everything. That is not true. There is much we don't know about every thing from history to quantum mechanics.
So it looks like those people don't want God and so they do not deserve to be with Him. They belong in hell.
Now hell for the devil & his angels is all fire and suffering. But just maybe, hell won't be an eternal torture for those "good people". They will simply not have the happiness & the wonderful relationship with God that Christians will have.
Now I also believe God is just & fair. We will have people who have never heard about Christ. Maybe they lived 2000 years BC in China. They had no chance to hear about Christ. Surly God would not treat them the same as He does us. They will be judged by their own moral standard. Maybe also God knows which of them would have accepted Him and which would have rejected Him.
These are some general ideas of topics that could take up many books!
And God has used many people to help bring the Christian message to others.
Remember, the bottom line is, it is your choice. God will never force you to choose Him.
Here is a great website: www.reasonablefaith.org
You can log in for free and read & listen to many important topics in Christianity.
Christ bless!
If you have any questions or other ideas please ask me!!