Hello,
I am not a Coptic Christian. For all intents and purposes, I am a Protestant. I attend a non-denominational church. I am also an American. I have met this woman from Egypt and she is a Coptic. I have great respect for her and the Coptic faith.
Before I pursue a relationship I would like a little information about inter-denominational relationships.
I do not want anyone to get the wrong idea of me so I will tell a little bit about my philosophy of dating and myself. I believe that dating is an interview for marriage. I do not enter into relationships lightly (hence the post). I am a deeply religious person who tries to follow the teachings of Christ and I have the utmost respect for other Christian branches.
I thank you for responses that will help guide me in making a decision.
Salphone
Comments
Your question is a good one and is also respected in every way.
Our Church's belief is that there is simply no "inter-denominational relationships," defining relationships (dating) to be leading to marriage which have the same idea.
Think of it as the difference between protestants and Catholics. There is no union. Same with out Church; there is no union with protestants or even Catholics (and many of the Eastern Orthodox). And if there is no union in the main belief, then how can there be union in one part of the belief?!
Marriage is one of the great and important mysteries of our Orthodox Church. It is not taken lightly as it might seem these days in the world, especially in the US and Europe. It is a mystical union between a man and a woman that is blessed by God Himself. There are to much that can be said about this, but i'll leave it to this.
I had a feeling that would be the response. I understand the conflict between the two branches.
I would be lying if I said I was not disappointed.
Once again thank you.
pm me if you want to ask more qus, i will be away for a couple of days then can answer :)
it is a bit complicated. my husband is protestant but it was me who changed, after marriage.
pm me if you want to ask more qus, i will be away for a couple of days then can answer :)
Hi Mabsoota,
I think we can all learn from your experiences. Please share it with us.
I have my own opinion, but I cannot really make judgements because I have married someone who is Coptic (like me) - however, you would be best to judge.
I think also Mabsoota, if you were protestant before marriage and then you became Coptic (whilst your husband is still protestant) - it actually reduces much conflict because, when you discuss with him anything, you will not be judgemental, but understanding because you were once also protestant.
The only problem I see is as follows:
If you are both religious people who have never prayed in each other's church's before marriage, then this maybe a problem. I'm NOT recommending that you pray in other Church's but - if for example - you HAD to go to a protestant school (if you are coptic) where the culture was protestant, you would have some understanding of the issues that divide us.
It will not be easy - for sure:
* As a Copt, we have veneration of Saints. We do NOT worship saints, but we glorify God THROUGH His saints. This is very important for us. Can you imagine what prayer would be like if your spouse venerated saints whilst you objected?
* We believe that Saint Mary was the Holy Mother of God and we call her Ever Holy. She is also EVER Virgin. How would you feel when your wife says Hail Mary and you CANNOT say that with her?
* We have priesthood, and we believe in confession through a priest. We ultimately confess to God, but we acknowledge the authority of Priests to administer the sacrament of reconciliation (confession). This is the Will of Jesus Christ. Many couples confess together to their priest. Obviously, this will pose a problem if you are protestant and you do not accept priesthood anyway.
* We partake of the real Body and Blood of Christ for the remission of sins. This is fundamental. It is our spiritual food. You do not have this.
My concern is that if you do not believe in what we believe, then when you marry someone who does believe and practices these things, you will feel awkward. The unity from prayer may result in disunity/division. So, the thing that united you (your love for Christ) may be the cause of what divides you.
Although I am very very close to the Catholic Church, and I love it tremendously, and I even evangelise with them. Even yesterday, I gave tours to Notre Dame Cathedral to catholics (in fact, I had a crowd of about 100 people I was explaining it to); if my wife was NOT Coptic, I would be suffering.
I would not feel we were one spiritually. That would bother me. I'd feel we couldnt pray together. (and that's assuming if she was catholic. Of course, if she was protestant, it would be MUCH harder).
Firstly, I'd like to welcome you to the forums. I see that you truly have a respect for both the Church as well as the institution of marriage, as is evidenced both by your action in seeking counsel in these forums as well as the thoughts that you have expressed. Welcome!
I was hoping that we would be able to get a bit more clarification on the matter... namely, is the goal of the dating and the subsequent marriage to remain within your own faith, or is it possible that you will consider the faith of the woman whom you have made reference to?
Again, I thank you for inquiring about this, and I hope that God blesses you and your future.
childoforthodoxy
As a Protestant I believe that faith is a very personal thing. That does not mean that one's faith should be solely dependent upon one's personal feelings. Doctrine is very important.
"Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers." I believe this is a good warning for inter-faith relationships (Even if it mainly applies to believers with non-believers).
I would like to remain with my own faith. However, I would be willing to learn about the Coptic faith. I would hope that she would be willing to learn about my faith as well. People in a relationship should pray, and worship together. If they are not sharing that part of their lives with one another it will most likely cause problems later down the road, especially in regards to the raising of children.
I am very sensitive to this situation which is why I would like some guidance.
If anyone could give me some reference material to learn about the Coptic faith, that would be great. I have also been asking her about the Coptic faith.
http://www.copticchurch.org/sites/default/files/Introduction to the Coptic Church.pdf
http://www.copticchurch.org/sites/default/files/Story of Copts.pdf
http://www.copticchurch.org/sites/default/files/Tradtion and Orthodoxy.pdf
http://www.copticchurch.org/onlinelibrary
http://www.orthodoxbookstore.org/whatcopticorthodoxchristiansbelieve.aspx
If you would like more, just message back :)
The quote that you have used is a very appropriate one. I suppose (and forgive me if my assumption is incorrect) that if someone from your church were to see that you began to gravitate towards the Orthodox faith and thereby leave behind that which you have claimed as your own faith for what I take to be many years now, they would say that you were communing with an unbeliever, if we are to signify an unbeliever as one who does not share the same faith that you hold to be the truth faith. Similarly, I'm sure that this is the reaction that would be immediately manifested towards the woman you speak of.
For a practicing Orthodox Christian to be wed, they would have to marry another Orthodox Christian, whether they were born into the faith or just recently became inaugurated into the faith. This, of course, would be a major change in your faith, which I gather would take some time and prayer as well as a great deal of searching for the Truth; your request to learn about the Orthodox faith is an admirable one, but to learn of something as in a sort of academic means is only a beginning and would only be more fully completed through experiencing the faith.
You've indicated that you would like to remain within your own faith; don't let this dissuade you from then learning about the Orthodox faith. I can see that it hasn't and I hope that it does not in the future. As an Orthodox Christian, I wish for others who are not in the faith (and even those are within the faith but are not practicing or are not properly educated [not simply academically but as a matter of experience] in the faith) to be able to seek out earnestly with diligence that which is the Truth. Again, I admire you for your efforts and pray that God may guide you in the way which will lead you to His Kingdom.
In terms of resources concerning the Orthodox faith, I abase myself and humbly stand aside for Fr. Peter Farrington to make the proper recommendations, as I am sure he comes across subjects like this frequently. I hope that he is reading this topic, but if not, I will attempt to contact him for you.
God bless your inquiries,
childoforthodoxy
My church, in regards to inter-faith (they would say inter-denominational) marriages, believes that you must not only be yoked is simply as a Christian, but that both share similar views within Christendom. I guess that would be a very liberal interpretation of being equally yoked. If I were to enter a relationship with this woman, they would immediately say, "Be careful, listen carefully to her beliefs, respect her beliefs, and pray." From there I would make the decision on whether to continue the relationship or not. So your assumption is correct somewhat.
I am beginning to read some of the literature provided above (BTW thank you Tishori).
Thank you for trying to contact Fr. Peter Farrington.
Once again, I have nothing but respect for the Orthodox Church. The fact that the Church has endured so long, and through so much, makes me have respect for it. I would like to be honest with the woman to whom I am referencing. However, I do not think I will say anything until I am sure that I would be fully willing to attend a Coptic Church in order to experience it first hand by myself (There is one in my town). I will have to pray on it (a lot).
-salphone
I am not sure that I can add much more to the sensible advice given by many on this thread. I am from an Evangelical background and became Orthodox about 15 years ago after many years of searching and investigation. In my own experience I must agree that the Church is wise to be restrictive in the matter of marriage partners because it is not easy to be in a close relationship when there is a difference of opinion about something so important.
I know that the Salvation Army are also restrictive when it comes to one of their clergy marrying, and they must choose a partner who is also in the Salvation Army. This seems wise because so much is demanded of a minister that it would be very hard for one partner to be committed to a certain way of living and the other to not have that commitment at all.
The question is not so much as to whether or not a Coptic Orthodox christian can be in a married relationship with a non-Orthodox, it is possible (when one partner has become Orthodox) but complicates everything. The question is rather whether it is wise to begin the journey of marriage when the foundations are not entirely united and bonded together. Nor is this only a matter of Christian spirituality. If one potential partner insists that a child should never be spanked under any circumstances, while the other potential partner believes in a use of such discipline, then there will be problems in bringing up any children. If one potential partner is obsessively tidy, and the other is rather messy then this will cause problems. If one likes classical music and the other likes rock. If one likes dogs and the other hates dogs. If one wants to be rich and the other is happy with just enough income to live.
All of these are tension points in a relationship that need to be considered before marriage because they can cause it to be shipwrecked.
But for Christians the spirituality is most important because the marriage is formed in a shared relationship with God, and if we have major differences about who God is, what he wants of us, how we should live and pray etc then the marriage cannot be formed in the way that Orthodox believe God wishes it to develop.
Of course there are many Orthodox, even Coptic Orthodox, who do not live out their Christian life as they should. Is it better to be a Protestant and Coptic Orthodox couple who are both devout, or to be a Coptic Orthodox married to a Copt who doesn't practice his or her faith? I guess we are talking about what is best. And the Church believes that it should seek to protect her children from that which is not the best. This does not always work out that way. But it is what the Church is trying to do when it refuses to marry a couple who are not both Orthodox.
It would be wrong to think 'I must consider becoming Orthodox for the sake of this woman'. You should become Orthodox because you discover that it is God's will and God's way for you. I have found the riches of Orthodox spirituality immensely satisfying since I became Orthodox, and even for many years before becomig formally Orthodox. Even as a Protestant there is much which I do wholeheartedly believe would enrich your spiritual life if you feel able to take the time to discover some of it and experience it for yourself. I have found Orthodoxy to be the fulfillment of all the spiritual aspirations I had as an Evangelical.
Be assured that there are folk praying for you. I would counsel taking your time to discover what Coptic Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy more generally stands for, not only in a doctrinal sense, but finding out how we live and pray day by day. It may well be that much of our spirituality is not so foreign to you and for you. Most of the prayers, psalms and scripture readings we pray through the day are not problematic even for a Protestant. Our daily prayers are here..
http://www.agpeya.org
This is not necessarily the best translation, and others can point you towards other editions. But if you see how much we value prayer and psalms, and if you see the concerns of our prayers, even if there are phrases you perhaps cannot pray, then you will understand us a little better.
Do keep visiting here and letting us know what you are discovering and how you respond to it.
God bless you
Father Peter Farrington
Thank you very much for your post. It has given me much to think about. It would be very difficult to have a relationship with someone who has very different beliefs than I.
Though I probably will not begin a relationship with this woman, I am reading about the Coptic faith simply because you all have given me much insight and urged me to learn about the Church. Everyone here has been helpful and has not been rude. None of you condemned my beliefs or criticized my predicament.
Thank you all for your respect, and guidance. I will continue to come to this forum if I have questions while learning about the Coptic faith. There is another Coptic that I know that can teach me about the day-to-day life.
-Salphone
1. If u have children, which faith will u baptize them? this will bring a quarell!! or which church will you bring them to? dont say "we'll let the children choose" because they have no idea wat is good for them.
2. the fights will be narrow down to religion.we all stick closely to our beliefs, so we will always finalise each action to our beliefs and it will be unbearable...this happens in marriage later on the road.
3. your children will not look up to any of you..because you will fight. they will be influenced to fight with all and you will have to pay account for your children. they might possibly blame you for their problems and might even go astray because they dont want either religion.
5. the only point of getting married is to bring eachother closer to God, because marriage in itself is blessed by God by making the husband and wife, one. so if the "worldly love" is present, the marriage definately will not last(this has been proven by many cases-thus the rate of divorces getting higher).. but if there is spiritual love the marriage will be on a strong foundation, for God is love (1 john 4:8) and 1 corinthians 13:7.
5. you really need to think deeply about this matter...you can email various priests to help you on this matter.
QT PA 2T, i think i have told most of my life story ;) in my previous posts.
if looking them up is not enough, pm me.
i have nothing more to add, everyone answered really well :)