As I know it is because, God had said to Adam at Gen 2:16-17 that whenever he eats from the Tree of knowledge he'd die. Jesus dying on the cross took upon him this punishment and sin Adam committed. God is giving us a 2nd chance to return to him because we're His children.
I'm not any kind of a priest, but I hope I've helped.
Please pray for my weakness and may God bless you.
CHrist himself needed to die on our behalf to give us salvation because the wage of sin was death. No human could pay that price on behalf of all mankind and at the same time give salvation. So the only one able to save us would be god himself because he is the only one who could possibly take on all the sins of the world and free us from the bondage of satan which is why we say he destroyed death by death. His Holy death saves us because through his death joy entered into the whole world. Through his death the paradise was opened and satan was tied up and the righteous were freed from hades. His death and his sacrifice on the cross were the only things that could give us a new life. Since only the creator of life can give new life, god himself was expressed and incarnate and became man to take on our sins and to give us himself and his holy spirit and a NEW life. as we say in the friday night theotokia, " HE took what is ours, and gave us what is HIS, let us praise and glorify HIM, and exalt HIM" im not a priest but i hope that the holy spirit guided me to give the correct information. PLz father peter respond to this !
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=8373.msg106607#msg106607 date=1254122430] But what I don't understand is why did He need to die for? Especially on a cross? Why not die of old age?
Christ died the death of a sinner, the shameful execution of an evil person. His death as a criminal is symbolic of the purpose of His sacrifice: to take the blame for our sins upon Himself. It really brings home the massive irony of His situation, the King of Kings being slain as the lowest of the low.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=8373.msg106607#msg106607 date=1254122430] Why couldn't God just forgive?
I thought we inherited sin from Adam. Our natures changed and we become corrupted. Christ came to renew our natures. To give us a new birth.
As christ_rose said, the penalty for sin is death. That principle applies not only to us, but to every being God has created with free will (angels included). If God simply decided to forgive our wrongs, He would be contradicting His own law. If the penalty for sin is death, then those who sin must die. Otherwise how could we call God just? God's very nature compels Him to punish evil. The very fact that He would rather take the punishment on Himself than waive the law that demands the punishment shows us how highly He values consistency in His judgement.
I'm not a priest either :) just putting my 2c worth in
[coptic]twbh `ehryi ejwi nacwni nem na`cnyou[/coptic] Pray for me
When God said to Adam, if you eat of this tree, you will surely die; I thought it was meant in the sense that "he will die" - i.e. he will grow old and die. That was Adam's punishment: death.
It was man's sad situation - that we all die.
Why then did Christ have to go through the suffering on the Cross?
And also, why not die a "natural death"?
THe wages of sin is DEATH - not punishment. Do you see what I mean?
So, sin leads to death. Adam sin, and he died. He died a spirutual and earthly death. His punishment was that he had now to work and toil the soil to eat from it, and Eve's punishment was that she had to bear children (or something like that).
Why is everyone saying that the price of sin is death and then equating death with punishment?
Also, how does Christ's death give us life??? That's what I want to know.
I mean, OK.. let's say His death was to go and pay back the Father for the sins of the world. OK. Great. So? How does His death help us? How does it give us life??
I hope my quesiton is getting across?? I'm really interested in knowing the answer.
I agree, there is a price to pay for the sin (punishment) - fine, I CAN accept that - but also, there is a need for healing (from that sin) - i.e. the fact that we need to live. How does His Death give us life??? How does it solve the problem of us being dead (spiritually, and physically!)???
when God said to adam 'you will die' this means the spiritual death of separation from God. that's why the devil could say 'you will not die' that is you will not immediately cease to exist. Jesus had to go through a sort of separation from the father. because God can't really be properly separated, that's why He rose after that. i would write more, but will leave it for others.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=8373.msg106610#msg106610 date=1254137009] Jesus had to go through a sort of separation from the father. because God can't really be properly separated, that's why He rose after that. i would write more, but will leave it for others.
O dear. I don't think this sounds theologically correct.
God couldn't just forgive because He is a *just* God. His justice is greater than His mercy. But love is above all, so He became the sacrifice for our sins. The cross was a humiliating punishment back then, so I guess that also adds to His suffering.
[quote author=sodr2 link=topic=8373.msg106618#msg106618 date=1254150880] God couldn't just forgive because He is a *just* God. His justice is greater than His mercy.
Again, despite my limited knowledge of Theology, I do believe this answer is also theologically incorrect.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=8373.msg106619#msg106619 date=1254153108] [quote author=sodr2 link=topic=8373.msg106618#msg106618 date=1254150880] God couldn't just forgive because He is a *just* God. His justice is greater than His mercy.
Again, despite my limited knowledge of Theology, I do believe this answer is also theologically incorrect.
That is trully. God is both, just and merciful. We can't separate them and day one us higher than the other.
On Sunday last my bishop preached on the cross and said, in the end, it is a mystery. However this verse sums up the Orthodox position, so I believe;
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Heb 2 v14/15).
Am I right in thinking that Christ , who raised the dead, cannot Himself die naturally?
This is just my contibution. I look forward to Fr Peter's computer being back in service.
[quote author=aidan link=topic=8373.msg106622#msg106622 date=1254159117] On Sunday last my bishop preached on the cross and said, in the end, it is a mystery. However this verse sums up the Orthodox position, so I believe;
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Heb 2 v14/15).
Am I right in thinking that Christ , who raised the dead, cannot Himself die naturally?
I have to say, it's not a matter of "ability." God is the Pantocrator-the Almighty One. We cannot limit His authority.
I always thought of it this way: There are "rules" that everyone have to follow. Even God Himself created things and said things that He Himself will not break (as it is written "The Lord has sworn and will have no regret/ not repent."). This includes His mercy and judgment. He can't be merciful than He is just or more just than He is merciful. So His Economy fulfilled all of this.
Going back to the original question, GOd had to die as a sacrifice because in the old testament according to the Law, for the remission of sins a sacrifice had to be performed. ACcording to the hymn Fai etafenf, which is translated to " this is he who offered himself as an acceptable sacrifce on the cross for the salvation of our race" it indicates that christ was an acceptable sacrifice and that the other sacrifice did not fully purify the people of their sins because it didnt take away their original sin. God is just as we have, when he gives commandment he also follows the commandment as he says in mattew chapter 5 verse 17 he states clearly that he came abiding and empasizing the commandments of the old testament. So he had to die as a sacrifice according to the law to take away our sins and freeing us from the bondage of satan. The happenings of the cross and how they did not break his legs and how the blood cured many ppl all has to do with what god told moses in the old days. Christ fulfilled over 600 prohpecies from the old testament. If u look into the readings of holy week in the book of the treasures of the fathers they describe all of this in great detail.
The problem of us being dead from god was healed and we have new life for the following reasons.
1. when we sinned a barrier was created between us and god and we couldnt fully be with god because of that barrier that our sins created.
2 When christ died for us he broke that barrier and opened for us paradise. Instead of going to hades and dying, christ came down and broke the chains that satan had on the righteous and led them to paradise. His death gives us salvation because the price for our sins was paid and we are now free from satans bondage. His death allows us to have confession and repentance and baptism and it gives us a new life in the sense that he saved us from death. this was the ultimate sacrifice for the whole race of humans. the wage of sin is death yes but the purging of sin was by sacrifice so someone needed to die as a sacrifice and as i explained in the last post of mine that that person had to be god. there is a really nice picture that shows how the cross bridged the path btween us and christ if anyone wants it ill send it cuz i dont know how to post it
One of the purposes of the cross was to fulfill scriptures. In the OT, God established the sacrifice of animals to atone for sins. These sacrifices,however, were not enough to restore the fallen mankind to his original state. A blamess , spotless ,sinless sacrifice was needed to destroy the consequences of sin. That perfect sacrifice was Christ. The animal sacrifices serve as a symbol ,to prepare us to understand the meaning of Christ’s death on the cross for the atonement for our sins.
To understand the 'How' of the salvation is, I think a bit of a mystery. As far as I am concerned, it proves difficult to break it down logically. When mankind fell from grace, death was the punishment for sin. When Christ died on the Cross, He took upon himself that punishment. However, because He was without SIN, and therefore undeserving of the death sentence, through His death, the punishment was lifted for us. This is explained in In Matt 20:28, when Christ himself says “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” This means, by His death He ransomed mankind from the slavery of sin and redeemed us from the eternal consequences of sin which had been sustained at the Fall.
Christ paid the price of sin that no man could ever pay. God accepts the sacrifice ,not because he demands it, but to fulfill the Divine plan of our salvation. In God's justice and righteousness, death was the penalty for sin, and Christ paid that penalty. But because He was sinless, His death was not just. Therefore, He justly destroyed death.
Moreover, the devil believed he could destroy Christ like he had destroyed Adam. To accomplish his plan, he incited Judas and the Jews to put Christ to death. But Christ's death proved to be the devil's destruction because, unlike Adam or every other person who had ever lived, Christ did not deserve death. The devil destroyed man, because man was found guily of sin, but he faced inscrutable problems when he attempted to destroy the sinless Christ.As a consequences and by trying to destroy Christ unjustly, the devil achieved the exact opposite of his goals, namely, God's verdict that through His son's death, the consequences of the Fall were reversed.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=8373.msg106607#msg106607 date=1254122430] But what I don't understand is why did He need to die for? Especially on a cross? Why not die of old age?
Of old age? The Bible declares that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Christ_rose has many fine points). Christ, the innocent, died in the our place, the guilty party. As Professor Epchoise_Nai_Nai indicated, the cross was the epitome of curse and death, "cursed is everyman man that hangeth upon a tree". St Paul also says, that Christ became a curse for us. Crucification was a criminal's fate and those that were crucified were despised as death-deserving criminals. Yet, christ humbled himself and died the death that we sinners justly deserved to save us from the eternal penalty for sin. Therefore, Christ saved us by hanging on the cross not only to demonstrate to us His justice and righteousness, but also to show His great love for his creation and by the cruel death of His son, the Father accepted us unto Him.John 3:16 sums this up beautifully ," For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to death for our sake .
i agree with these fine points. i expect many people will then ask 'why did God institute animal sacrifice in the old testament?' i think it is to show that sin is so serious and so awful, that nothing a man can do can put it right. there had to be some terrible punishment, and God allowed that punishment to fall on the animal as a sign to man that sin results in death. this was to prepare the way for Jesus' great sacrifice, to show to man that nothing at all rebuild the relationship between man and God after sin, except God's amazing grace.
I might be re-iterating what some people are saying but here it is in a nutshell:
1. The punishment of sin was death --> this divine justice (which God created) was absoulte
2. God is just and this law is based on His "justness", so therefore God cannot contradict Himself by breaking this bond
3. In the old testament, God said sacrifice is required for the remission of sins (not just one sacrifice; they were also imperfect sacrifices. The people had to find a clean animal with no inffirmities and the sins of the people would be transfered to this animal)
4. Since the sacrifice was given to humans, it had to be a human (obviously!). It also had to be an sinless human otherwise it would have been impossible for a sinful man/woman to bear the sins of others, including their own. (God also required a "clean" animal in the old testament ;) )
5. Since a perfect Sacrifice is necessary for our salvation, God (who is loving and just) took the burden of all sins through the sacrifice on the cross.
6. This fulfilled all forgiveness since God's sacrifice was perfect and unlimited (hense: God is unlimited/perfect)
I hope this answers your questions. I strongly recommend you read "On the Incarnation" by St. Athansius. Correct me if I am wrong Fr. Peter
Adams punishment was physical and spiritual. If it was not spiritual he would have no punishment.. He would die to go to another paradise. Adam never went to paradise straight after his death. He went to hades the waiting place of the dead. Yes he suffered in that work was a curse for him..and he lived for even 930 so years so that sounds even good for him.. but he never died.. because he went to paradise if God could forgive without atonement.. but Abel understood God's mind and so he offered the lamb as a sacrifice.. not that he believed the blood of a lamb could atone for human sin.
Also the death of the cross was the last sign used by Jesus to ensure people could believe in him. It was the fulfillment of psalm 22. Who else would choose to die on the cross? Jesus said to those jews When I am lifted up then you will know that I am He. that was the way to seperate the true from the false.. the good shephard gives His life for the sheep.
If he did not die on the cross and he died as an old man noone would remember as psalm 22 says. All the families of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD.
And He said "and I if I am lifted up will daw all peoples to Myself"
Orthodox11 gave me the answer, I forgot what he said and then I started thinking about this topic, and now I wish I could ask him again, but he's not here.
He's left tasbeha.org.
Anyway, I just want to know how Chrit's death gives us life?
Because if you say that His death was neeeded to repay the Divine Justice, then how do we have eternal life . You see, if His death was to repay the divine justice, then how does His death give us life? it obviously pays back God's justice.. [b]but how does it solve our problem of "being dead!"???
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=8373.msg106661#msg106661 date=1254244264] Orthodox11 gave me the answer, I forgot what he said and then I started thinking about this topic, and now I wish I could ask him again, but he's not here.
He's left tasbeha.org.
Anyway, I just want to know how Chrit's death gives us life?
Because if you say that His death was neeeded to repay the Divine Justice, then how do we have eternal life . You see, if His death was to repay the divine justice, then how does His death give us life? it obviously pays back God's justice.. [b]but how does it solve our problem of "being dead!"???
it depends on how you define "death." In our belief of the physical death is just a "departure" from this world to the other, Paradise or Hades. The true ultimate DEATH is instead of departing to Paradise you depart to Hades where there is no going back. Before salvation and through the divine justice, death ruled over us where EVERYONE went to Hades, righteous and not. After salvation, that rule of death was broken over human beings. Now it (he, referring to the Devil), only have power over those who are in the true death.
So the eternal life comes through believing in Christ God where He will take you to Paradise, and not let you go to Hades.
So basically, what you are saying is that His death was to repay the Divine Justice. God needed a sacrifice of Eternal magnitude to forgive the world in order to let them into Paradise?
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=8373.msg106663#msg106663 date=1254248110] So basically, what you are saying is that His death was to repay the Divine Justice. God needed a sacrifice of Eternal magnitude to forgive the world in order to let them into Paradise?
That's basically it!?
well there is more to it. The death on the Cross fulfilled the divine justice. But then He didn't stop till there, He rose from the dead and entered heaven to do as He said "I will prepare a place for you."
It's the Economy of salvation; Part of it is to die to break the bondage of mankind from death and the rest to bring them back to their original estate.
It's all in the liturgy: "Holy, holy, holy, indeed. O Lord our God, who formed us, created us, and placed us in the paradise of joy, when we disobeyed Your commandment by the deception of the serpent, we fell from eternal life and were exiled from the paradise of joy. You have not abandoned us to the end, but have always visited us through Your holy prophets. And in the last days You manifested Yourself to us, who were sitting in darkness and the shadow of death. Through Your only-begotten Son, our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, who, of the Holy Spirit and of the holy Virgin Mary,
Was incarnate and became man, and taught us the ways of salvation. He granted us the birth from on high through water and Spirit. He made us unto Himself a congregation, and sanctified us by Your Holy Spirit. He loved His own who are in the world, and gave Himself up for our salvation unto death, which reigned over us, whereby we were bound and sold on account of our sins. He descended into Hades through the Cross.
He rose from the dead on the third day. He ascended into the heavens and sat at Your right hand, O Father. He has appointed a Day for recompense, on which He will appear to judge the world in righteousness, and give each one according to his deeds." (Saint Basil's Liturgy)
it is because the price of sin is death and sins the original sin is in us someone had to die
This person had to be: 1- sinless because if he himself sinned he would also be a sinner 2- immortal because sin is immortal 3- a part of the god because only he can forgive sins
SO THE ONLY CANDIDATE WOULD BE GOD INCARNATE(JESUS) I HOPE I HELPED :)
[quote author=Darkeye link=topic=8373.msg106665#msg106665 date=1254258886] This person had to be: 1- sinless because if he himself sinned he would also be a sinner 2- immortal because sin is immortal 3- a part of the god because only he can forgive sins
I would be carful with stastments 2 and 3.
SIN is an just an action. The consequence of sin is what ruled us and is what Christ defeated.
Jesus Christ is not part of God but HE IS God.
Also forgiveness of sins didn't save us. If it did, then His mercy exceeded His justice...which can't happen.
[quote author=Darkeye link=topic=8373.msg106665#msg106665 date=1254258886] it is because the price of sin is death and sins the original sin is in us someone had to die
This person had to be: 1- sinless because if he himself sinned he would also be a sinner 2- immortal because sin is immortal 3- a part of the god because only he can forgive sins
SO THE ONLY CANDIDATE WOULD BE GOD INCARNATE(JESUS) I HOPE I HELPED :)
Sin is not immortal, the reason was because sin was committed against an unlimited God so there needed to be an unlimited sacrifice. Not because sin is immortal.
[quote author=Godislove260 link=topic=8373.msg106672#msg106672 date=1254308021] QT please do read 'On the Incarnation' by St. Athanasius the Apostolic, you will find many answerst to your questions there..
God Bless
i have to say that this is the answer to your question.
Chapter 21 seems to have everything I need (just from the heading). However, when I read it, does NOT answer the question.
If it does, well.. I didnt get it.
Death brought to nought by the death of Christ. Why then did not Christ die privately, or in a more honourableway? He was not subject to natural death, but had to die at the hands of others. Why then did He die? Nay but for that purpose He came, and but for that, He could not have risen.
So, the question is brilliant... and he obviously has the right frame of mind - but I'm REALLY lost in his answer.
Comments
As I know it is because, God had said to Adam at Gen 2:16-17 that whenever he eats from the Tree of knowledge he'd die.
Jesus dying on the cross took upon him this punishment and sin Adam committed. God is giving us a 2nd chance to return to him because we're His children.
I'm not any kind of a priest, but I hope I've helped.
Please pray for my weakness and may God bless you.
CHrist himself needed to die on our behalf to give us salvation because the wage of sin was death. No human could pay that price on behalf of all mankind and at the same time give salvation. So the only one able to save us would be god himself because he is the only one who could possibly take on all the sins of the world and free us from the bondage of satan which is why we say he destroyed death by death. His Holy death saves us because through his death joy entered into the whole world. Through his death the paradise was opened and satan was tied up and the righteous were freed from hades. His death and his sacrifice on the cross were the only things that could give us a new life. Since only the creator of life can give new life, god himself was expressed and incarnate and became man to take on our sins and to give us himself and his holy spirit and a NEW life. as we say in the friday night theotokia, " HE took what is ours, and gave us what is HIS, let us praise and glorify HIM, and exalt HIM" im not a priest but i hope that the holy spirit guided me to give the correct information. PLz father peter respond to this !
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
I thought we inherited sin from Adam. Our natures changed and we become corrupted. Christ came to renew our natures. To give us a new birth.
But what I don't understand is why did He need to die for? Especially on a cross? Why not die of old age?
But what I don't understand is why did He need to die for? Especially on a cross? Why not die of old age?
Christ died the death of a sinner, the shameful execution of an evil person. His death as a criminal is symbolic of the purpose of His sacrifice: to take the blame for our sins upon Himself. It really brings home the massive irony of His situation, the King of Kings being slain as the lowest of the low.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=8373.msg106607#msg106607 date=1254122430]
Why couldn't God just forgive?
I thought we inherited sin from Adam. Our natures changed and we become corrupted. Christ came to renew our natures. To give us a new birth.
As christ_rose said, the penalty for sin is death. That principle applies not only to us, but to every being God has created with free will (angels included). If God simply decided to forgive our wrongs, He would be contradicting His own law. If the penalty for sin is death, then those who sin must die. Otherwise how could we call God just? God's very nature compels Him to punish evil. The very fact that He would rather take the punishment on Himself than waive the law that demands the punishment shows us how highly He values consistency in His judgement.
I'm not a priest either :) just putting my 2c worth in
[coptic]twbh `ehryi ejwi nacwni nem na`cnyou[/coptic]
Pray for me
When God said to Adam, if you eat of this tree, you will surely die; I thought it was meant in the sense that "he will die" - i.e. he will grow old and die. That was Adam's punishment: death.
It was man's sad situation - that we all die.
Why then did Christ have to go through the suffering on the Cross?
And also, why not die a "natural death"?
THe wages of sin is DEATH - not punishment. Do you see what I mean?
So, sin leads to death. Adam sin, and he died. He died a spirutual and earthly death. His punishment was that he had now to work and toil the soil to eat from it, and Eve's punishment was that she had to bear children (or something like that).
Why is everyone saying that the price of sin is death and then equating death with punishment?
Also, how does Christ's death give us life??? That's what I want to know.
I mean, OK.. let's say His death was to go and pay back the Father for the sins of the world. OK. Great. So? How does His death help us? How does it give us life??
I hope my quesiton is getting across?? I'm really interested in knowing the answer.
I agree, there is a price to pay for the sin (punishment) - fine, I CAN accept that - but also, there is a need for healing (from that sin) - i.e. the fact that we need to live. How does His Death give us life??? How does it solve the problem of us being dead (spiritually, and physically!)???
Jesus had to go through a sort of separation from the father. because God can't really be properly separated, that's why He rose after that.
i would write more, but will leave it for others.
Jesus had to go through a sort of separation from the father. because God can't really be properly separated, that's why He rose after that.
i would write more, but will leave it for others.
O dear. I don't think this sounds theologically correct.
Father Peter
God couldn't just forgive because He is a *just* God. His justice is greater than His mercy.
Again, despite my limited knowledge of Theology, I do believe this answer is also theologically incorrect.
[quote author=sodr2 link=topic=8373.msg106618#msg106618 date=1254150880]
God couldn't just forgive because He is a *just* God. His justice is greater than His mercy.
Again, despite my limited knowledge of Theology, I do believe this answer is also theologically incorrect.
That is trully. God is both, just and merciful. We can't separate them and day one us higher than the other.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Heb 2 v14/15).
Am I right in thinking that Christ , who raised the dead, cannot Himself die naturally?
This is just my contibution. I look forward to Fr Peter's computer being back in service.
In Christ
On Sunday last my bishop preached on the cross and said, in the end, it is a mystery. However this verse sums up the Orthodox position, so I believe;
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Heb 2 v14/15).
Am I right in thinking that Christ , who raised the dead, cannot Himself die naturally?
I have to say, it's not a matter of "ability." God is the Pantocrator-the Almighty One. We cannot limit His authority.
I always thought of it this way:
There are "rules" that everyone have to follow. Even God Himself created things and said things that He Himself will not break (as it is written "The Lord has sworn and will have no regret/ not repent."). This includes His mercy and judgment. He can't be merciful than He is just or more just than He is merciful. So His Economy fulfilled all of this.
The problem of us being dead from god was healed and we have new life for the following reasons.
1. when we sinned a barrier was created between us and god and we couldnt fully be with god because of that barrier that our sins created.
2 When christ died for us he broke that barrier and opened for us paradise. Instead of going to hades and dying, christ came down and broke the chains that satan had on the righteous and led them to paradise. His death gives us salvation because the price for our sins was paid and we are now free from satans bondage. His death allows us to have confession and repentance and baptism and it gives us a new life in the sense that he saved us from death. this was the ultimate sacrifice for the whole race of humans.
the wage of sin is death yes but the purging of sin was by sacrifice so someone needed to die as a sacrifice and as i explained in the last post of mine that that person had to be god. there is a really nice picture that shows how the cross bridged the path btween us and christ if anyone wants it ill send it cuz i dont know how to post it
To understand the 'How' of the salvation is, I think a bit of a mystery. As far as I am concerned, it proves difficult to break it down logically. When mankind fell from grace, death was the punishment for sin. When Christ died on the Cross, He took upon himself that punishment. However, because He was without SIN, and therefore undeserving of the death sentence, through His death, the punishment was lifted for us. This is explained in In Matt 20:28, when Christ himself says “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” This means, by His death He ransomed mankind from the slavery of sin and redeemed us from the eternal consequences of sin which had been sustained at the Fall.
Christ paid the price of sin that no man could ever pay. God accepts the sacrifice ,not because he demands it, but to fulfill the Divine plan of our salvation. In God's justice and righteousness, death was the penalty for sin, and Christ paid that penalty. But because He was sinless, His death was not just. Therefore, He justly destroyed death.
Moreover, the devil believed he could destroy Christ like he had destroyed Adam. To accomplish his plan, he incited Judas and the Jews to put Christ to death. But Christ's death proved to be the devil's destruction because, unlike Adam or every other person who had ever lived, Christ did not deserve death. The devil destroyed man, because man was found guily of sin, but he faced inscrutable problems when he attempted to destroy the sinless Christ.As a consequences and by trying to destroy Christ unjustly, the devil achieved the exact opposite of his goals, namely, God's verdict that through His son's death, the consequences of the Fall were reversed.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=8373.msg106607#msg106607 date=1254122430]
But what I don't understand is why did He need to die for? Especially on a cross? Why not die of old age?
Of old age? The Bible declares that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Christ_rose has many fine points). Christ, the innocent, died in the our place, the guilty party. As Professor Epchoise_Nai_Nai indicated, the cross was the epitome of curse and death, "cursed is everyman man that hangeth upon a tree". St Paul also says, that Christ became a curse for us. Crucification was a criminal's fate and those that were crucified were despised as death-deserving criminals. Yet, christ humbled himself and died the death that we sinners justly deserved to save us from the eternal penalty for sin. Therefore, Christ saved us by hanging on the cross not only to demonstrate to us His justice and righteousness, but also to show His great love for his creation and by the cruel death of His son, the Father accepted us unto Him.John 3:16 sums this up beautifully ," For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to death for our sake .
i expect many people will then ask 'why did God institute animal sacrifice in the old testament?'
i think it is to show that sin is so serious and so awful, that nothing a man can do can put it right. there had to be some terrible punishment, and God allowed that punishment to fall on the animal as a sign to man that sin results in death. this was to prepare the way for Jesus' great sacrifice, to show to man that nothing at all rebuild the relationship between man and God after sin, except God's amazing grace.
1. The punishment of sin was death --> this divine justice (which God created) was absoulte
2. God is just and this law is based on His "justness", so therefore God cannot contradict Himself by breaking this bond
3. In the old testament, God said sacrifice is required for the remission of sins (not just one sacrifice; they were also imperfect sacrifices. The people had to find a clean animal with no inffirmities and the sins of the people would be transfered to this animal)
4. Since the sacrifice was given to humans, it had to be a human (obviously!). It also had to be an sinless human otherwise it
would have been impossible for a sinful man/woman to bear the sins of others, including their own. (God also required a "clean" animal in the old testament ;) )
5. Since a perfect Sacrifice is necessary for our salvation, God (who is loving and just) took the burden of all sins through the sacrifice on the cross.
6. This fulfilled all forgiveness since God's sacrifice was perfect and unlimited (hense: God is unlimited/perfect)
I hope this answers your questions. I strongly recommend you read "On the Incarnation" by St. Athansius. Correct me if I am wrong Fr. Peter
God bless
Tony
Also the death of the cross was the last sign used by Jesus to ensure people could believe in him. It was the fulfillment of psalm 22. Who else would choose to die on the cross?
Jesus said to those jews When I am lifted up then you will know that I am He.
that was the way to seperate the true from the false.. the good shephard gives His life for the sheep.
If he did not die on the cross and he died as an old man noone would remember as psalm 22 says. All the families of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD.
And He said "and I if I am lifted up will daw all peoples to Myself"
He's left tasbeha.org.
Anyway, I just want to know how Chrit's death gives us life?
Because if you say that His death was neeeded to repay the Divine Justice, then how do we have eternal life . You see, if His death was to repay the divine justice, then how does His death give us life? it obviously pays back God's justice.. [b]but how does it solve our problem of "being dead!"???
Orthodox11 gave me the answer, I forgot what he said and then I started thinking about this topic, and now I wish I could ask him again, but he's not here.
He's left tasbeha.org.
Anyway, I just want to know how Chrit's death gives us life?
Because if you say that His death was neeeded to repay the Divine Justice, then how do we have eternal life . You see, if His death was to repay the divine justice, then how does His death give us life? it obviously pays back God's justice.. [b]but how does it solve our problem of "being dead!"???
it depends on how you define "death." In our belief of the physical death is just a "departure" from this world to the other, Paradise or Hades. The true ultimate DEATH is instead of departing to Paradise you depart to Hades where there is no going back.
Before salvation and through the divine justice, death ruled over us where EVERYONE went to Hades, righteous and not. After salvation, that rule of death was broken over human beings. Now it (he, referring to the Devil), only have power over those who are in the true death.
So the eternal life comes through believing in Christ God where He will take you to Paradise, and not let you go to Hades.
did you watch the movie, Chronicles of Narnia?
That's basically it!?
So basically, what you are saying is that His death was to repay the Divine Justice. God needed a sacrifice of Eternal magnitude to forgive the world in order to let them into Paradise?
That's basically it!?
well there is more to it. The death on the Cross fulfilled the divine justice. But then He didn't stop till there, He rose from the dead and entered heaven to do as He said "I will prepare a place for you."
It's the Economy of salvation; Part of it is to die to break the bondage of mankind from death and the rest to bring them back to their original estate.
It's all in the liturgy:
"Holy, holy, holy, indeed. O Lord our God, who formed us, created us, and placed us in the paradise of joy, when we disobeyed Your commandment by the deception of the serpent, we fell from eternal life and were exiled from the paradise of joy. You have not abandoned us to the end, but have always visited us through Your holy prophets. And in the last days You manifested Yourself to us, who were sitting in darkness and the shadow of death. Through Your only-begotten Son, our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, who, of the Holy Spirit and of the holy Virgin Mary,
Was incarnate and became man, and taught us the ways of salvation. He granted us the birth from on high through water and Spirit. He made us unto Himself a congregation, and sanctified us by Your Holy Spirit. He loved His own who are in the world, and gave Himself up for our salvation unto death, which reigned over us, whereby we were bound and sold on account of our sins. He descended into Hades through the Cross.
He rose from the dead on the third day. He ascended into the heavens and sat at Your right hand, O Father. He has appointed a Day for recompense, on which He will appear to judge the world in righteousness, and give each one according to his deeds." (Saint Basil's Liturgy)
This person had to be:
1- sinless because if he himself sinned he would also be a sinner
2- immortal because sin is immortal
3- a part of the god because only he can forgive sins
SO THE ONLY CANDIDATE WOULD BE GOD INCARNATE(JESUS) I HOPE I HELPED :)
This person had to be:
1- sinless because if he himself sinned he would also be a sinner
2- immortal because sin is immortal
3- a part of the god because only he can forgive sins
I would be carful with stastments 2 and 3.
SIN is an just an action. The consequence of sin is what ruled us and is what Christ defeated.
Jesus Christ is not part of God but HE IS God.
Also forgiveness of sins didn't save us. If it did, then His mercy exceeded His justice...which can't happen.
it is because the price of sin is death and sins the original sin is in us someone had to die
This person had to be:
1- sinless because if he himself sinned he would also be a sinner
2- immortal because sin is immortal
3- a part of the god because only he can forgive sins
SO THE ONLY CANDIDATE WOULD BE GOD INCARNATE(JESUS) I HOPE I HELPED :)
Sin is not immortal, the reason was because sin was committed against an unlimited God so there needed to be an unlimited sacrifice. Not because sin is immortal.
Why/How does His death on the cross benefit us? If there is more to it than paying the divine justice, then what was it?
How do we benefit from His death on the cross (Other than repayment of the Divine Justice)?
Thanks
God Bless
QT please do read 'On the Incarnation' by St. Athanasius the Apostolic, you will find many answerst to your questions there..
God Bless
i have to say that this is the answer to your question.
Here is the book on the Incarnation of the Word.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2802.htm
Chapter 21 seems to have everything I need (just from the heading). However, when I read it, does NOT answer the question.
If it does, well.. I didnt get it.
So, the question is brilliant... and he obviously has the right frame of mind - but I'm REALLY lost in his answer.