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How can a loving God send ppl to hell?
its hard to defend this point to ppl, and hard to accept,
and if we cant stand the thought of someone being tortured for eternity, how can God bear that thought who is far greater than us?
is eternal condemnation and torture fair to punish 80yrs or so of sin?
there must atleast be levels in hell?
Comments
its hard to defend this point to ppl, and hard to accept,
and if we cant stand the thought of someone being tortured for eternity, how can God bear that thought who is far greater than us?
is eternal condemnation and torture fair to punish 80yrs or so of sin?
there must atleast be levels in hell?
G.J.I. this is a very troubling question for people and often trips people up. Many people who hate God will pose this question in an attempt to demonize Him. Simple fact is God gives us every chance to repent and make things right. Richard Dawkins, one of the foremost atheists, when asked if he died and God existed and said, "Richard what have you been doing, why didnt you believe me" to which Mr. Dawkins replied, "Sir why have you taken such great pains in order to hide yourself?" This is the mentality of people who reject God, God must present Himself or He doesnt exist. I would like to think that God would then reply to him like this: "Richard, why did you not take such great pains to find me?" In sense it is we who judge ourselves, our conscious condemns us or saves us. God is a loving God and does not wish anyone be sent to hell, God also does not infringe on free will, giving us the right to choose as we wish. This is why those who willingly choose to believe God against all logic, to believe in something we cannot see, that is beautiful. Believing in God is difficult while following ones desires is simple and evil.
thanks
PPFM
G.J.I, God loves all of us soooo much, even unbelievers. Romans 2:2-16 is about the judgment of God.The Orthodox Study Bible has an article called "the basis of God's judgment" that discusses this passage. It's page 1523 in the OSB full (old and new testament) version. But just in case you don't have it, I will summarize the article for you briefly: basically it says that God will judge everyone RIGHTEOUSLY according to:
God is merciful and He gives us so many chances. He gives non-Christians many chances too. He will not come to judge the world until the gospel has been preached everywhere and everyone has been given a chance to follow Him. Remember, Christ died to save ALL of us, not just Christians, so everyone is guaranteed salvation. I think in the end we have to remember that it is all up to HIM.[li]Truth (nothing is hidden from Him) [/li]
[li]Impenitent hearts (a repentant vs a hard heart) [/li]
[li]Our deeds ("...the unity of intentions with actions, faith with works. Even unbelievers are rewarded for good works, apart from spiritual understanding.") [/li]
I hope that helps a bit... :)
GBU
To be in the presence of God is joy and delight for those who love him, but pain and torment for those who reject and hate him.
God has provided all that is necessary for man to be renewed and find spiritual health and true life, but God has also provided free will so that man must choose life. 'Choose you this day whom you will serve...' If a man chooses death and darkness then God will honour that choice, even though he does not cease knocking on the door of our hearts.
It is not God's fault or desire that men reject life and choose hell for themselves, but the possibility of choosing life requires that there is a possibility of choosing death. In the same way Adam was given all that he needed for an eternity of life with God, but he chose to worship himself rather than the creator and chose the way of death for himself.
Think of being at a party if you hated everyone there. It would be a joyous occasion for everyone else, but would be hell (in a weak analogous sense) for the person who had closed their heart and was full of hatred. Is that the fault of the host or the guest?
Father Peter
Kind of going off of what ioannes said, people choose their fate. They either pick to follow God or Satan, without a neutral. Even Jesus says you cannot half-heartedly love him, saying it is better to be against him than lukewarm. Also God is loving, but He is Just. When the people of Israel rebelled against him in the Sinai desert, he killed them and their families. Also, when asking for signs of God, I always give the example of the Virgin's apparation in Zeitoun. It is impossible to prove anything against it. Projectors were not that powerful, there is no way a human being can naturally radiate light, and the fact that government and religious officials confirmed it. It always works.
And they also cut the power to the whole area and surrounding region to try and prove it was falsified, and yet there she stood.
[quote author=coptmorous link=topic=8438.msg107238#msg107238 date=1256576227]
Kind of going off of what ioannes said, people choose their fate. They either pick to follow God or Satan, without a neutral. Even Jesus says you cannot half-heartedly love him, saying it is better to be against him than lukewarm. Also God is loving, but He is Just. When the people of Israel rebelled against him in the Sinai desert, he killed them and their families. Also, when asking for signs of God, I always give the example of the Virgin's apparation in Zeitoun. It is impossible to prove anything against it. Projectors were not that powerful, there is no way a human being can naturally radiate light, and the fact that government and religious officials confirmed it. It always works.
And they also cut the power to the whole area and surrounding region to try and prove it was falsified, and yet there she stood.
Yes they did do that
On judgment day sinners will ask Allah “How may you condemn us to eternal fire while we sinned during the short time of our life?” Allah will reply to them “Yes, you lived for a short time but if you were to live forever you would have sinned forever.”
I know this might not be in harmony with what our church teaches (if so I hope someone will correct me). Nevertheless, it shows how just God is.
In Christ
Theophilus
that you may be found just when you speak and blameless when you judge God is fair... so when a judge has to hold a trial for his son... and starts having sympathy and starts lacking his part of the trial... he is not fair... and is subject to tried himself!
so replace that judge with God!!! is accepting the life sentence or the death penalty for one crime fair?!
we accept so many things through the law and on earth but we hold against God! maybe... nothing that I want to find out first handed!!!
akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
Sin is a wrong use of the will. It is a choice apart from God. It has no existence at all. No reality. No being. It is not a thing. It is an ungodly choice.
Father Peter
I think God is everywhere by his very nature.
Sin is a wrong use of the will. It is a choice apart from God. It has no existence at all. No reality. No being. It is not a thing. It is an ungodly choice.
Father Peter
So does that mean that God, being everywhere, be in hell?
As the Scripture says...
(Psa 139:8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Father Peter
there must atleast be levels in hell?
I read a book a while ago called "23 Minutes in Hell" It explains this topic very well and has biblical sources.
But to answer your question, yes there are levels of hell (dont get excited all of them suck lol)
So, without god in the paradigm of the question, the question is no longer a thorny as the questioner has stated it.
Furthermore, I believe that theist can take the argument a few steps further. For there is nothing explicitly contradictory about god being all loving and all powerful and certain people going to hell. The argument 's potency then must be based on some underlying hidden assumptions. Well, what are those assumptions one may ask. I believe they are two fold:
That firstly, An all powerful and all-loving God exists. That such a God not only prefers the world in which no person is condemned to hell, but that such a God can actualize such a world. The argument would flow as follows:
Premise one: Necesserily, an all powerful and loving God can and prefers to create a world in which all persons freely accept His salvation and are not condemned to Hell
Premise two: God is all loving and all powerful
Premise three: Therefore, God has created a world in which all persons freely accept His salvation and are not condemned to Hell
Yet, since it is obvious that such a world is in not the actual world (at least in refrence to the Christian world and life view), the Christian god either does not exist or is not an all powerful or loving God.
Now, at first glance the argument may seem soundfully raised. However, at closer look one begins to see the fallaciousness with premise one. Is it necessarily true that God, being all powerful, can actualize a world in which a no person is damned to hell? Well, I believe that the atheist and theist alike can conclude that it's not ungrounded to assume god could actualize such a world. However, is it true that God can actualize a world in which no free agents are damned to hell? Well, not seemingly so. It simply does not follow that God can actualize such a world given the background information of human free will. So long as humans are free to choose between events that enact good and events that enact evil, I do not think one can legitimately state that God can ensure all will men will choose to always do good over evil. At most God would be able to coax or to convince free agents into doing more good over evil. For so long as there are individuals with unrestricted will in the world, God cannot logically make someone freely choose to do something. God simply cannot perform the logically impossible.
While it is possible that God could create a world in which no one disobeys his word and all men ultimately reach salvation, there is no guarantee that in such a world free agents would exist. Such a world would be more akin to a robotic or puppet-like world where all men are so compelled by God so as not to entertain any evil. Men would become like little action figures in a world of reserved space for God to inker and play with. I would hardly think that God would prefer to engage with such a lifeless and relation-less type of scenario.
Now for argument's sake, let us assume that premise one is correct. Let us grant the skeptic that it is logically possible for God to create a world in which all men freely do come into a loving, salvivic relationship with Him. Does it follow necessarily, that God prefers such a world? Well, again I cannot confidently say that in all circumstances God would indeed prefer to create such a world. For suppose such a world could only be created under certain overriding deficiencies. For instance, suppose such a world in which all men freely came to know the salvation of Christ was a world that was sparsely under- populated; a world with only one are two men. Should God therefore choose to actualize such a world in which only one are two come into a loving relationship with Him over a world were multitudes come into a loving relationship with Him? Well, I think not. What would compel God to choose a world where few are saved and none fall away over a world where many are saved and some must fall away? It is logically possible that in creating a world where all men are saved there may be certain overriding deficiencies that would incline God not to prefer such a world. Now unless one id fully aware of all the possbile contingencies of creating any given possible world, one cannot confidently state that God is unjust in creating world A (another possible world) over any given world B (our world).
Now, at this point I believe we can drop the argument and blunder any further headway of the skeptic. Yet, although one may argue that there are no implicit inconsistencies between the statements that God is all loving and some men be condemned to hell, I believe that the Theist can take the argument one step further. I believe that the Theist can allocate a possible statement that shows not merely no inconstancy but a consistent scenario that accounts for both points. I believe such a statement may go as follows: That God, in all his majesty and wisdom has offered a life redeeming hand to all men; either through general or special revelation or both; that those who should freely accept it would be granted eternal sonship with Christ and that those who should freely reject it would be given no eternal sonship with Christ. Furthermore, on the basis of what all men have chosen for themselves they are either self-consigned to a loving relationship with God in Heaven or a self-appointed division from God in the remaining factor of Hell.
In essence, so long as it is logically possible that salvation is offered to all and some freely reject it while others freely accept it, there can be no demand upon God to give an account for his sending people to the place of their choosing. For, in essence God does not send any person to Hell, rather men tend to send themselves. Once more, in so far as men have been given freedom of the will there is no guarantee that God could logically ensure all men would accept His offer of salvation. As C.S. Lewis scripts it acutely; "there are only two kinds of people in this world, those who bend the knee to God and say 'Your will be done' and those who refuse to bend the knee, to which God replies, 'Alright then, your will be done.'" Thus, so long as entrance into heaven's abode or hell's furnace is dependent upon a loving relationship with the son promulgated by free-agents, there is no basis for the claim that God sends people to hell over the claim that men refuse to accept God's hand and ultimately send themselves to hell. Unless the skeptic is able to defend his two implicit premises, there is no logical incompatibility between there be an all loving God and some people rejecting the salvation of Christ, neither explicitly nor implicitly.