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St. John Chrysostome evil?
I have read about saint john chrysostome, and though many of his sermons were beautiful, I have also read that he actually hated the Jews, and he believed that God hates the Jews. Now we know as christians that of all people we should love the Jews. God loves the Jews, they are his chosen, and they will always be his chosen, as it is written "all isreal will be saved".
When I heard that John Chrysostome hated the jews, it really turned me off, I also remembered how in our own liturgy we bless John Chrysostome. And in fact, many of our beleifs such as the bread and wine becoming the true body and blood was spoken of and explained by John Chrysostome.
Here is a quote for John Chrysostome in year 379 "God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them". If he truly believed this, than I am actually upset that the coptic church believed this man was a saint. In the words of Jesus himself, "whoever says he loves me and hates his enemy is a LIAR".
When I heard that John Chrysostome hated the jews, it really turned me off, I also remembered how in our own liturgy we bless John Chrysostome. And in fact, many of our beleifs such as the bread and wine becoming the true body and blood was spoken of and explained by John Chrysostome.
Here is a quote for John Chrysostome in year 379 "God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them". If he truly believed this, than I am actually upset that the coptic church believed this man was a saint. In the words of Jesus himself, "whoever says he loves me and hates his enemy is a LIAR".
Comments
God loves the Jews, they are his chosen, and they will always be his chosen, as it is written "all isreal will be saved".
The Jews are not God's chosen, Israel is God's chosen. You may think that just because Israel is associated with Jews that this is the case, but it is not. Israel in this verse is not the Jewish people, but rather they are the people who worship the true God (who was only God the Father to them because The Son and The Holy Spirit were not revealed to them yet). This is before the New Testament.
Now after the New Testament, there is a new Israel. Christians are the new Israel because we worship the true God, the Holy Trinity, and the Jews do not.
I have never personally heard that St. John Chrysostom hated the Jews, maybe he hated what they believed, or he hated their stubbornness because they denied Jesus as the Saviour.
I hope what i said made sense, sorry for any confusion or anything.
please pray for me and my weakness
we are NOT the "new israel" we are the gentiles, the old testament speaks of the messiah being rejected by his own people (Jews) and accepted by the gentiles. The old testament says in 2 Samuel 7 "For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee FOR EVER".
We all know the verse in revelations speaking of the second coming of the messiah, which says "and EVERY eye shall see him"
But if you go to mathew 23:39 Jesus speaking to Jerusalem and says "YOU SHALL NOT SEE ME AGAIN, UNTIL YOU SHALL SAY BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD".. and we know hes talking about the Jews because he says "o jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets"...
Jesus makes it clear that he will NOT return until the Jews accept him as the messiah. Why? People God made a covenant with them that he will NOT break.
Once again, the church has NOT REPLACED ISRAEL, this is completely unsupported by scripture. The Church is the Body of Christ consisting of redeemed Jews and Gentiles. It has nothing to do with the Jews being more special than the gentiles, it has to do with the fact that God made a covenant with the Jews that he PROMISED he would Keep for ever. And if the Church has replaced israel because of its disobedience than God might as well replace the church one day... NO, thats not how God works, he KEEPS his covenant, otherwise he wouldnt have made it. He has made an UNCONDITIONAL promise to Israel. And incase you may not get this, im talking about israel as a nation, meaning jews that dont accept Jesus NOW are not saved, but as a nation Jesus will not return untill ALL living Jews have finally accepted Jesus.
Jeremiah 30:11 For I am with you, says the Lord, to be your saviour: for I will put an end to all the nations where I scattered you, but I will not put an end to you completely: though with wise purpose I will put right your errors, and will not let you go quite without punishment.
Jeremiah 31:10 Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and KEEP HIM, as a shepherd doth his flock.
The Church has NOT replaced israel, but we have accepted their messiah, the Jewish messiah, the jews have rejected their own messiah and so salvation has not come to the Jews, but there is no replacing of any sort, and God makes it clear that he will save israel because he made a covenant with them which is an unconditional promise. Its very clear whats happening to Israel as written in romans...
Romans 11:25 For I don’t desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won’t be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written,There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. This is my covenant to them,
when I will take away their sins.” Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they may also obtain mercy. For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.
But anyways, this was not the topic, my topic was on John Chrysostome HATING the Jews believing that God hates them, if youve read the verses above you can see just how WRONG john was, and its very clear "This is my covenant to them, when I will take away their sins.” Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
In other words, the descendants of israel will ALWAYS be Gods people no matter WHAT
I'm not sure what you are saying is correct...
The Bible teaches us that there is jew nor gentile, male nor female, slave nor free, all are one in Christ, it is this unity that transcends age, colour, ethnicity, sex etc. that is so typical of Christianity.. All are equal members in the one Body... meaning there is no one who is worth more, definitly not because of their race
Also, God never breaks a covenant, but the other party can break it... God is always willing and prepared to accept jews, christians or muslims (or any other religion) who come to Him, that is His promise : Whoever comes to me, I will by no means cast out..
I don't know enough about the subject to discuss this any further, I just shared what I think to be correct, if I'm wrong, I hope some of the better informed members will correct me..
Jeremiah 31:37 [NKJV]
37 Thus says the LORD:
“ If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.
Let me try to contribute something. Heaven means earth's atmosphere or the sky we see with the clouds (heavens means the universe above the sky and the third Heaven means the spiritual world of light that is the realm of the throne of God). Thus this angle of view now may give a different meaning. Also in the NKJV God speaks of "all the seed of Israel" and "For all that they have done". We'll talk later about the things they did.
From your quoted version it may be understood that God may have meant not rejecting all the descendants of Israel. We can read this in:
Revelation 7, The Sealed of Israel
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.
(then verses saying 12000 of each tribe of Israel each by name, not everybody)
And,
Romans 11, Israel’s Rejection Not Total
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
So we read here also there was and will be a remnant but not all of Israel.
I second Godislove260 about this issue. Also the Jewish priesthood was banished when the high priest torn his holy clothes when he accused Jesus Christ of blasphemy to imply the death sentence against Him. When our Lord died on the Cross "Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom" Mark 15:38.
So what have they done and what did Christ say?
Jeremiah 2
11 Has a nation changed its gods,
Which are not gods?
But My people have changed their Glory
For what does not profit.
12 Be astonished, O heavens, at this,
And be horribly afraid;
Be very desolate,” says the LORD.
13 “ For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters,
And hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water.
Mathew 21:15
But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant.
The Temple will never be rebuilt.
It was the third and last Temple that was destroyed.
Do not believe false ideas that the end of times will occur if the Temple will be built again.
Their last try to rebuild it failed, and that was in the 4th century AC/CE.
Matthew 24:2
And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
Luke 19, Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
John 2, Jesus cleanses the Temple (the Herod's time Temple)
15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!”
17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His Body.
Christ is the Lord's definitive Temple where and with whom we gather and His Holy of Hollies and that will not be destroyed for ever.
St John Chrysostome meant it to be a clear warning and if we may not hate the Jews we do indeed hate their deeds. This means that we pray for them though we hate violence, etc. Many saints did call them the 'killer nation'. They have always fought Jesus Christ (and they still do) they refuse and mock Him since He came and they did crucify Him - remember that even Saul fervently persecuted the early Church before being struck by the miraculous vision of Christ - then he became the very zealous disciple St Paul.
Luke 11:23
He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
John 5
42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive *. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
* Jesus was probably speaking about the antichrist.
On the second coming of Christ He will come in His full Glory, i.e. in the last hour, on the fearful day of Judgment. The rapture will happen the moment Christ comes with His Angels. All the dead in the graves etc. must first rise, so the rapture will occur after the dead rise, not before. (1Thess 4:15-18)
GBU
The Bible teaches us that there is jew nor gentile, male nor female, slave nor free, all are one in Christ, it is this unity that transcends age, colour, ethnicity, sex etc. that is so typical of Christianity.. All are equal members in the one Body
I never Denied this, which is why i said the Church is the Body of christ consisting of saved jews and Gentiles (the Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ). But it is clear in the Bible, the Lord said he would preserve the Jewish nation, as I quoted before In jeremiah he said He would destroy all the nations in which he scattered the people of Israel, BUT that he would never completely destory the nation of Israel, rather discipline them UNTIL they realize their messiah.
Some may think of this as God playing favourites, he is NOT, he is simply keeping his covenant. My point is not that ALL Jews whether they believe in Jesus or not will be saved, my point is that before the second coming God will open their hearts and they will remember the true messiah whome they rejected and will weep over him.
As I quoted before in Romans "For as you in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they may also obtain mercy. For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all."
This verse is very special if you look closely it basically says, we were once disobedient (we gentiles) but because they have been disobedient and rejected their messiah, WE have become obedient by accepting their messiah, and so, God will make them "jealous", in that he will show US, the gentiles mercy, and when the jews see the mercy God has on us, so will they come believe in the true messiah and be given mercy also.
No where does it say the covenant ended, for those who rejected the messiah, theyre fate is sealed, and they are NOT saved, but Gods plan for Israel is to bring his people back to the Holy Land from which he scattered them, and make them all believers (by all I mean the righteous ofcourse). The covenant was for the descendents of Israel, even the second covenant was for Israel BUT in included the gentiles, the first covenant remains for Israel and it will not be broke. OFcourse those who dont accept christ will not be saved, whether Jew or Gentile, but as a Nation, God still has a covenant with them that he said he would NOT break no matter what Israel AS A NATION does, and thats clear in Jeremiah 31:37..
You have to remember the Jews have gone through SO much, the holocaust, the crusades, basically the entire world is against the Jews, yet they cannot be wiped out, why? Because God is preserving them as a nation, why? Because he made a covenant with them that he refuses to detroy.
But once again, back to the real topic, St. John Chrysostome, i personally do not care how evil the Jews are, if a man tells me I must hate them EVEN for their deeds, according to Jesus he is not from Jesus. Jesus said to love even your enemy, and that whoever says he hates his enemy is a liar. I just find that there is no excuse you can make for John Chrysostome that will make him sound Holy to me.
I'm wondering, where did you get this quote and impression? It's just that it was not said in English, also.
I just don't think the church would be mistaken concerning saints.
Something does not fit; God does not hate and it seems the quote is not right.
I know you're wrong here.
I await those more expert with quotes, but aside from whether or not St John Chrysostom was anti-semitic in any sense we would understand it (and I doubt this judging from the works of his I have read), the Church is the New Israel. We, the gentiles, are the wild olives grafted onto the the cultivated vine of Israel.Initiation into this 'New Israel' is by Grace and the capital,Jerusalem,is above.
I'll leave it for someone else now.
Please pray for my ignorance
Dear Meena
I know you're wrong here.
I await those more expert with quotes, but aside from whether or not St John Chrysostom was anti-semitic in any sense we would understand it (and I doubt this judging from the works of his I have read), the Church is the New Israel. We, the gentiles, are the wild olives grafted onto the the cultivated vine of Israel.Initiation into this 'New Israel' is by Grace and the capital,Jerusalem,is above.
I'll leave it for someone else now.
Please pray for my ignorance
I dont understand why all coptics believe that, its found no where in scripture, everything I have said I have quoted from the word of God, its not enough to say something you "believe" is correct, what does the Bible say. I know it doesnt say anywhere that the church is the new israel, its NOT, the church is the BODY OF CHRIST CONSISTING OF SAVED JEWS AND GENTILES.
Meena,
I'm wondering, where did you get this quote and impression? It's just that it was not said in English, also.
I just don't think the church would be mistaken concerning saints.
Something does not fit; God does not hate and it seems the quote is not right.
You can google it, But it think this was in the year 379
ask anyone who studies patrology (not me but I know someone who does) and they will tell you that you cannot trust any translation... I would appreciate it if you can find me exactly where the blessed and honoured SAINT John Chrysostom said this and I can ask about it and see if this translation is accurate. Meena_Ameen, with all due respect your first questions should have been "is this translation accurate?" and not "Why is St. John Chrysostom so evil?"
If the translation is not correct, than by all means I greatly apologize. If the translation is correct however, than I am not sayin "why is John Chrysostom so evil, rather I am trying my best to stand next to our Lord who warned us of those who have Hate in their hearts. All i want to do is stand next to Lords side on this issue, and if indeed John Chrysostome did not hate the Jews, than I apologize, but as far as the english translation goes, this is what was said. I aso heard a long sermon by a Jew who has accepted Jesus as his messiah, he has a PH.D in near eastern languages.. If you would like to hear his sermons and debates you can find them on www.realmessiah.com they are incredibly interesting.
some passages that talk about 'my people' in the old testament certainly mean the Christians, but it is not a simple replacement as can be seen from a careful reading of romans 11.
i think we should be grateful for everything we have from israel (eg much of the symbolism of the mass has it's roots in the synagogue and temple traditions as well as in the Bible), while avoiding those theories that say 'God gave israel some land so now they are allowed to rule oppressively over the current inhabitants'.
it is not a simple issue, but, in short, the jews need to understand that Jesus Christ is their Messiah.
i can't comment about john chrysostom except to say that in my limited reading (a few hours on the internet) i didn't see anything dodgy or anti-semitic. he wrote a lot of brilliant stuff, as far as i can see. of course we shouldn't hate the jews, but instead share our faith with them.
read romans 11. the church is not the 'new israel'.
some passages that talk about 'my people' in the old testament certainly mean the Christians, but it is not a simple replacement as can be seen from a careful reading of romans 11.
i think we should be grateful for everything we have from israel (eg much of the symbolism of the mass has it's roots in the synagogue and temple traditions as well as in the Bible), while avoiding those theories that say 'God gave israel some land so now they are allowed to rule oppressively over the current inhabitants'.
it is not a simple issue, but, in short, the jews need to understand that Jesus Christ is their Messiah.
i can't comment about john chrysostom except to say that in my limited reading (a few hours on the internet) i didn't see anything dodgy or anti-semitic. he wrote a lot of brilliant stuff, as far as i can see. of course we shouldn't hate the jews, but instead share our faith with them.
Thank you mabsoota, finally someone who agrees the church is not the "new israel"
Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Galatians 6
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
There is a webpage with many details on this issue, find main points for the subject here:
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/israel.html
What the_least posted about the translations of the Fathers' sayings and their sermons/teaching/books is true.
Edit: I meant if the text is somewhere unclear it's better to read other translations or the original sources or confirmed references.
GBU
You can google it, But it think this was in the year 379
Maybe we should look at the time St. John Chrysostom gave sermons; not in the 21st century, but in the late 300's.
I found this from google. (Actually from an encyclopedia on the site)
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/John_Chrysostom
"During his first two years as a presbyter in Antioch (386-387), John denounced Jews and Judaizing Christians in a series of eight sermons delivered to Christians in his congregation who were taking part in Jewish festivals and other Jewish observances. It is disputed whether the main target were specifically Judaizers or Jews in general. His homilies were expressed in the conventional manner, utilizing the uncompromising rhetorical form known as the psogos (Greek: blame).
One of the purposes of these homilies was to prevent Christians from participating in Jewish customs, and thus prevent the perceived erosion of Chrysostom's flock. In his sermons, John criticized those "Judaizing Christians", who were participating in Jewish festivals and taking part in other Jewish observances...A more recent apologetic theory is that he instead tried to persuade Jewish Christians, who for centuries had kept connections with Jews, to choose between Judaism and Christianity."
I'm not sure of the source, but it gives us a sense of the time. Considering this, it seems very important that St. John Chrysostom remain firm.
My dear brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, pray for me in my weakness.
This is an interesting topic that is fought over in the heterodox Protestantism, only because they do not have the fulness of the Faith and the Church as we Orthodox Christians are blessed to have. I could very well be wrong, for which I apologize in advance, but it only looks and seems as though we are interpreting the Scriptures and the writings and sermons of St. John Chrysostom by our own means and methods, without trusting in the grace of the Holy Spirit operating through our holy bishops throughout the ages. Comments about St. John Chrysostom being anti-Jews and evil, and thus also referring to the New Israel as something other than the Church is a type of Zionistic Protestant ecclesiology, placing Jews [who do not believe in Jesus] on the same terms as the Faithful in the Church, which is blatantly against the tradition of the Church and especially against Scripture. We mustn't forget the Church's interpretation of Romans, or any book of the Bible.
St. John Chrysostom is a Holy Father among the Saints, one of the Great Hierarchs and Ecumenical Teachers, together with Basil the Great and Gregory the Theologian.
Through the prayers of our holy Fathers, especially Sts. John Chrysostom, Basil the Great, and Gregory the Theologian, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us and save us. Amen.
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. (Matthew 3:9)
Pray for me & my weakness
In Christ
Theophilus