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sabani hobek
hi everyone. i was wondering if anyone has english text for sabani hobek ;D
Comments
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=2875
REFRAIN: (said every three part)
Your love embraced me: O pride of nations: Moses have seen you: Surprise and marvel: And the lamps are bright: With golden crosses: O Mary, Moses’ dome: O Aaron's censer.
I praise the Virgin: And explain and say: O, the origin: And the hidden Pearl: Through your Son, our Lady: Cause of salvation: We reached the goal: And you brought us joy.
Was truly Incarnate: From a Virgin girl: Crucified and died: For us at Golgotha: The fruit of my pledge: O, daughter of Zion: To love your Son: And proclaim and say.
Gabriel came: With tidings and sayings: You accepted his word: In calmness and wisdom: He dwelt by His Word: In strength and power: You became like heaven: O, daughter of Zion.
He saved Adam: After his sorrow: And has freed the world: We rejoice in you: He is glorified: And promised His Apostles: To save His people: From Satan's bondage.
Concerning you, David said: The King rejoiced in you: And took flesh from you: The Lord on His Throne: Myriads and thousands: Standing around the Throne: Ranks and orders: Saints and martyrs
Sorrow was taken away: And we're comforted: Through you O, Mary: The pride of the human race: Salome witnessed: That the Virgin gave birth: She believed and confirmed: The" mystery of mysteries.
Solomon your father: Praised in hymns and songs: And Jacob saw you: An upright ladder: The chiefs had proclaimed: O fruitful vine: You're a Virgin and a bride: As they prophesied.
Zephaniah proclaimed: That Jesus will appear: As rain and dew: While her Virginity is sealed: Eve caused Adam to stray: In tears he cried: Naked he was exiled: Without you they would not return
Your rank is up high: And great is your glory: The Lord honored you: O, Aaron's censer: Many praised you: You're the cause of all joy: You comfort everyone: Who's sorrowful and humble
My heart rejoice in you: O, Virgin Mary: Ask your Son Jesus: To protect me by His Might: Existent before the ages: Suffered and was crucified:He rose from His sleep: And the Disciples preached.
The righteous Apostles: And the four Evangelists: Preached in all nations: The tidings and rejoice: Glory is due to you: O, daughter of Joachim: You bore a great mystery: And gave birth to the Most High.
Moses and Daniel: Said many parables: And you fit all that: Mysteriously and more:You caused the world to shine: O, the pride of faith: All the creatures were free: Because of you, Mary
Gifts were offered in faith: To the King of kings: By the great Magi: Myrrh, gold and frankincense: They worshipped the born King: The Lord of lords: And Herod was terrified: And his soldiers marveled.
Do not forsake at that time: A poor and humble sinner: Your plead on Judgment Day: And for all the Christians: We ask of Him forgiveness: Faith and repentance: To be in calmness: We the believers
there is a text library here but i dont really know when its said in kiahk
http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/index.php?action=viewcat&id=32
http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/index.php?a=view&id=1300
when and how do you say it? and which lang. is it said in at church?
here is the audio.
http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns%2FFasts%2FNativity%2FSt_Mark%2C_Jersey_City%2C_NJ%2F08-sabani_hobek.1417.mp3
And it is said after the melody "Rashi o Mareia" or avmoti aro the 9th of the theotokeia. or may be in a differnt order as the time of the tasbeha.
nice hymn though thnxxx
thanks ;D
GB
It was posted on another forum long ago
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=2875
REFRAIN: (said every three part)
Your love embraced me: O pride of nations: Moses have seen you: Surprise and marvel: And the lamps are bright: With golden crosses: O Mary, Moses’ dome: O Aaron's censer.
I praise the Virgin: And explain and say: O, the origin: And the hidden Pearl: Through your Son, our Lady: Cause of salvation: We reached the goal: And you brought us joy.
Was truly Incarnate: From a Virgin girl: Crucified and died: For us at Golgotha: The fruit of my pledge: O, daughter of Zion: To love your Son: And proclaim and say.
Gabriel came: With tidings and sayings: You accepted his word: In calmness and wisdom: He dwelt by His Word: In strength and power: You became like heaven: O, daughter of Zion.
He saved Adam: After his sorrow: And has freed the world: We rejoice in you: He is glorified: And promised His Apostles: To save His people: From Satan's bondage.
Concerning you, David said: The King rejoiced in you: And took flesh from you: The Lord on His Throne: Myriads and thousands: Standing around the Throne: Ranks and orders: Saints and martyrs
Sorrow was taken away: And we're comforted: Through you O, Mary: The pride of the human race: Salome witnessed: That the Virgin gave birth: She believed and confirmed: The" mystery of mysteries.
Solomon your father: Praised in hymns and songs: And Jacob saw you: An upright ladder: The chiefs had proclaimed: O fruitful vine: You're a Virgin and a bride: As they prophesied.
Zephaniah proclaimed: That Jesus will appear: As rain and dew: While her Virginity is sealed: Eve caused Adam to stray: In tears he cried: Naked he was exiled: Without you they would not return
Your rank is up high: And great is your glory: The Lord honored you: O, Aaron's censer: Many praised you: You're the cause of all joy: You comfort everyone: Who's sorrowful and humble
My heart rejoice in you: O, Virgin Mary: Ask your Son Jesus: To protect me by His Might: Existent before the ages: Suffered and was crucified:He rose from His sleep: And the Disciples preached.
The righteous Apostles: And the four Evangelists: Preached in all nations: The tidings and rejoice: Glory is due to you: O, daughter of Joachim: You bore a great mystery: And gave birth to the Most High.
Moses and Daniel: Said many parables: And you fit all that: Mysteriously and more:You caused the world to shine: O, the pride of faith: All the creatures were free: Because of you, Mary
Gifts were offered in faith: To the King of kings: By the great Magi: Myrrh, gold and frankincense: They worshipped the born King: The Lord of lords: And Herod was terrified: And his soldiers marveled.
Do not forsake at that time: A poor and humble sinner: Your plead on Judgment Day: And for all the Christians: We ask of Him forgiveness: Faith and repentance: To be in calmness: We the believers
This translation is not accurate.
The verse goes: "Tagassad be sabaat, min set il bannat" - which is NOT translated as "Was truly Incarnate: From a Virgin girl: ".
Anyway, there's a lot of things in this song that doesnt make sense - so I wouldnt worry too much: like : "The Lamps are Bright"? WHat does that statement have to do with anything? I might as well add :"The fire is hot, and its cold outside"
Or.. "Coffee is nice, but so is tea". I mean - everyone I know has NO IDEA what it means "The lamps are bright". Yeah, they're bright, and the sun is hot, and the north pole is cold.
Another thing some people argue that the writer did not mean Zephaniah the prophet as it was not him who prophesied the coming of Jesus like dew and rain drops (I think it was Micah - Mina can confirm this). The Arabic word is "sophonia", which people debated whether it was a made up Arabic word from two words fused together, namely "sofoof el anbeya2" (= queues of prophets), or the other explanation was a word derived from the Greek "[coptic]covia[/coptic]" meaning "wise", which in both cases do not make sense.
All in all, I do agree with QT_PA_2T; not only this song, but many other Arabic ones are flawed, and full of off-putting statements as well, but hey, people do get bored of Coptic hymns, let them sing Arabic songs (compromise!).
[coptic]ere V] nai nan tyren [/coptic]
May God have mercy on us all
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
First, to clear up the "Sofonios" part; the word was probably written this way to rhyme in some specific hymns and were used in other just because the word spread that fast. The prophecy: "That Jesus will appear: As rain and dew" (and it is worded differently in many other hymns). My opinion and little research goes with what George Ghaly said on a post on coptichymns.net:
...I can not find any reference to this type of division. Besides we must remember that Zephaniah in Arabic is not "Sophonios". It is "Sophonia". I highly doubt the hymnographers, who found many, many refernces to St. Mary throughout the Old Testament would make such a mistake and oversight. I think "Sophonios" means something else. One suggestion would be that Sophonios is a corrupted form of "Sophia" (Wisdom in Greek) but this is too much of a stretch. Another suggestion would be "Sophonios" is an abbreviation of "sofof al anbeya" (Choir of the prophets). This would make sense as I'll explain below. I am not proficient enough in Arabic to confirm anything more..
Setting aside who wrote the saying, the context of the saying is found in the Bible. The text says, "He will come as rain and dew." He is refering to Jesus Christ and the event of His birth through the Virgin. Here is what the Bible says.
Rain: Hosea 6:3
"As surely as the sun rises, he will appear; he will come to us like the winter rains, like the spring rains that water the earth."
This verse really shows how Jesus will appear like rain.
Dew: Hosea 14:4,5
"I will heal their waywardness and love them freely, for my anger has turned away from them. I will be like the dew to Israel; he will blossom like a lily."
This verse shows how God will return to us and be like dew.
Rain and Dew: Deutoronmy 32:2
Let my teaching fall like rain and my words descend like dew, like showers on new grass, like abundant rain on tender plants
Although this verse speaks of God's teaching, if we are granted some leway, one can induce that God's teaching is a typology of the Logos of God. Thus, this verse would also foretell of the Incarnation of Jesus.
I would be interested to see if anybody else has any other suggestions on Sophonios.
George
I also have said:
1st, in HGB Yoannes recordings, he replaces Zephaniah with Hosea, but i only heard it in the "Burning Bush" hymn. they still said sofonios in other parts.
George, you said "One suggestion would be that Sophonios is a corrupted form of "Sophia" (Wisdom in Greek) but this is too much of a stretch. "
This is the most i can of this though. one reference i found and you did not post is:
Psalm 72:6
He shall come down like rain upon the grass before mowing, Like showers that water the earth.
Very close to Hosea 6:3. And i found that this psalm is written by king Solomon, the father of wisdom as we know.
So maybe that "Sofonios" came from "Sopheia" somehow?!
HG Bishop Youssef says: "According to the Septuagint, Zeph 1:15 describes that day of the Lord as day of cloud and vapor".....put personnel, this doesn't click into my mind!!!
nofri rompi `mberi e;bytk nem ouke ouon niben
oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Forgive me, but I feel that is important to discuss some of the things pertaining to this song, and to songs in general that have come into the Coptic Orthodox Church. I realize that many of you will take offense to this, but it is important to preserve Orthodoxy when we have the chance.
Firstly, I would like to quote ophadece:
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=4474.msg108803#msg108803 date=1262258076]
All in all, I do agree with QT_PA_2T; not only this song, but many other Arabic ones are flawed, and full of off-putting statements as well, but hey, people do get bored of Coptic hymns, let them sing Arabic songs (compromise!).
This song is indeed flawed. Raising the Virgin Mary in status that is almost equal to God, if not equal, is truly evident in this song. Let us examine some of the lines that are in this song that reflect this:
Your rank is up high: And great is your glory: The Lord honored you: O, Aaron's censer: Many praised you: You're the cause of all joy: You comfort everyone: Who's sorrowful and humble
Moses and Daniel: Said many parables: And you fit all that: Mysteriously and more:You caused the world to shine: O, the pride of faith: All the creatures were free: Because of you, Mary
Is Christ not the cause of our redemption, the joy in our salvation? Is He not the one who set mankind free from the bondage of sin? I find it interesting that this is made in reference to the Holy Virgin. Additionally, the Church is very particular in its hymnology, selecting the words to be used with the utmost care. It is through hymns that the people of the Church learn much about the beliefs of the Church. The people of the congregation assume that all that is presented to them is accurate and something that they should incorporate into their beliefs as they progress in Orthodoxy. Once we begin mixing inaccuracies in with true, Orthodox teaching, we lose this. Heretics are excommunicated over a single word, a word that represents a mindset that is incongruous with proper Orthodox teaching. How is it that we have allowed the songs to find their ways into our Church, with little or no regard to the words being presented, having the congregation stray away from the true faith without their realizing it?
Surely, there are parts of this song which are not inaccurate, but we must not mix accurate teachings with inaccurate opinions. If I take a glass of water, I can see through the glass clearly, as it has no impurities. If I take the glass of water and add just a bit of coloring dye, the water immediately reflects this murkiness. You may still be able to see through, but not as clearly. Over time, more and more of the dye is added, and we lose the clarity that was initially present.
This is not a matter of compromise; Orthodoxy is not a matter of compromise. Chanting a hymn in English or Arabic rather than Coptic is a matter of understanding, but none of the teachings of the Church are affected in this. Singing a song that does not reflect the teachings of the Church, but allowing it to remain because 1.) the people like it, 2.) it draws people to the Church, 3.) those in higher positions of authority allow and accept it... these are not acceptable reasons. Indeed, Church Fathers have written on issues such as these, in which people would suggest something that would allow for the population to grow in number while making a sacrifice or two in terms of proper Orthodoxy, and the Fathers stood firmly against this.
This problem carries over for so many of the songs, or as they are referred to in Arabic, "taraneem," that are now being sung in the Coptic churches. It is with great caution that we must examine these songs. Even one word in a song, if it is wrong, may be detrimental for the individual. Just because a song speaks about things of the Church does not mean it is from the Church; just because it has a catchy tune or because it makes me feel good does not make it acceptable.
I will not discuss the feeling of Coptic hymns being "boring" beyond saying that it is in them that we find our true faith, the instruction of our Orthodoxy, and they are not intended to be "boring" or "entertaining."
I pray that we take a more active role in preserving our Orthodoxy, not taking for granted the Pearl of Great Price that has been given to us by grace.
childoforthodoxy
First, we know that most of the hymns' written weren't necessarily clergy men or great scholars.
Second, the main and general concept is Jesus Christ came from Saint Mary. Now people would just say that many of the things that we received (grace) by Jesus, be also did through Saint Mary.....just because without her Jesus would have not appeared.
For example the verse you highlighted before, "You're the cause of all joy." "All joy" refers to Jesus Christ and the Economy of God. She is partially the cause of that Joy in the world.....it's really hard to explain.
Lets use another example that i might of heard in one of the many hymns. "You saved Adam" and "Adam was saved through you." The "you" here refers to Saint Mary. The first statement is WRONG because she didn't explicitly save Adam but Jesus did. The second statement is fine....why, because it doesn't explicitly say that she saved Adam but through Christ's birth of her, Adam was saved.
I respectfully disagree with the idea that most hymns were not written by clergy men or great scholars; to offer a few quick known examples, it is stipulated that Omonogenees (O Only Begotten) was most likely composed by St. Athanasius. The "Sarkis" that is mentioned in Aripsaleen was actually a clergy man, an ordained priest. The liturgies are attributed to Sts. Basil, Gregory and Cyril. There, indeed, is a very rich origin in the hymns, with learned men who were quite strong in their faith behind their composition, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
In terms of your second point, this is a rationalization which seeks out to cover a common heresy that most people are unaware of, namely that of attributing to the Holy Virgin the status of being Co-Redemptrix, a belief found often in Roman Catholic teachings, but never found in proper Orthodox teachings. I do not see how we can ascribe to her these characteristics.
To be termed the "cause" of all joy, as in your reasoning, we would then say that she is the absolute origin of Christ, which would then lead to the belief that He was not in existence before her, as she is the cause of His existence. Additionally, this would mean that He which is without cause, God before all ages, is now ascribed a "cause," which would mean that not only is Mary a god, but that Christ is a created being which came from her, and as such, is less than God, and therefore, not God.
Again, I believe that it is absolutely essential that we are clear in what we state as being our beliefs. If there is a point of ambiguity, it must be cleared up. Hymns have been composed to relay the beliefs of the Church and have sought to avoid any ambiguities whatsoever. The songs that are being performed today can, at best, be said to be ambiguous; in truth, they contain teachings which are not of the Orthodox faith, and are thus distracting in their aim, which would be to enlighten the individual as to what the Church believes, and thereby bring the individual closer to God by allowing them to worship Him (and only Him) properly.
I realize that people will be averse to accepting this, as many, many Copts have been raised with this firmly embedded in them as being correct. It is important that we separate our emotions from subjects as this so that we may be able to examine them more objectively and try to preserve our Orthodoxy.
childoforthodoxy
First of all thanks for quoting me - I think if you give it another thought you would never do that again :)
Anyway, I disagree with you in some points. Mina was talking about the Arabic songs not necessarily been written by clergy men, or theology students. Thence came a great new language into the church (I am not talking about the Arabic language), and a new flavour that we were not used to. Most of the examples you mentioned however, can be deemed as exaggerations to the Coptic meanings. I don't see them necessarily flawed.
When you talk about Adam being returned to his first rank, there is a verse in one of the hymns saying that Adam and Eve the Lord returned them through you Mary.
I agree with Mina that we believe that Virgin Mary is the cause not only of all joy, but peace and tranquillity as we say in the hymn "[coptic]ouon ouhelpic[/coptic]". Please note that some of the muslims who were watching the Virgin Mary's apparitions in Warraq, and without even believing have stated feeling a great sense of peace and calmness within.
We don't hail Virgin Mary as a god, but we agree that in our Orthodox faith that her rank is higher than all saints, angels, and she is only subordinate (in rank) to God Himself.
Another point to make is that [coptic]Omonogenyc[/coptic] is argued to have been written by Pope Severus of Antioch rather than Pope Athanasius, according to some new studies.
Having said all of the above, I completely and strongly agree with you that Arabic songs need a lot of refining and revamping. I don't know what to say, but I am not even sure if I start with myself and stop singing them, what the effects would be? Please let me know your opinions all.
[coptic]ere V] `cmou erwten qen tairompi `mberi ;ai
nofri rompi `mberi
oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
I respectfully disagree with the idea that most hymns were not written by clergy men or great scholars; to offer a few quick known examples, it is stipulated that Omonogenees (O Only Begotten) was most likely composed by St. Athanasius. The "Sarkis" that is mentioned in Aripsaleen was actually a clergy man, an ordained priest. The liturgies are attributed to Sts. Basil, Gregory and Cyril. There, indeed, is a very rich origin in the hymns, with quite learned mean who were quite strong in their faith behind their composition, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The kiahk arabic hymns are different then many of our church hymns. Like ophadece said, people in that blessed month introduced a new flavor of hymns/madayeh of glorification. let me give you examples: You included Fr. Sarkis. He wrote the 9 Greek interpretation of Kiahk Vespers. The 18 Bohairic ones of the same tasbeha (A and B) were written by Cantor Youhanna (i think he is the one who also wrote the coptic tafaseer that are said on the sunday theotoekia parts). The arabic hymns of that tasbeha, 9 of them where written by Abou El-Saad El-Aboutigi who "is from Aboutig in the Governorate of Asyout, Egypt, was originally a dangerous magician and then repented and became a writer of hymns." He also wrote "El-'oleka" and "Ya Ebnat Dawood kam min man qadeem" and many others including the arabic hymn that is said after Estermege, the Nativity Paramoun hymn...........
The list can go on and not finish....but my point in that they were not necessarily clergy men. Probably the way it was that one of the people wrote a madeha.....they would presented to the priest of the church and they would allow it in the tasbeha. consider that these things were before all the books we had in our churches today. the churches themselves were not as connected as today.
[/u][/b] Many can explain these and clarify the meaning of things. but we can't just oppose them and destroy them just because we don't understand them. There are a couple that you left out when it comes to hymns/madayeh....there are are factors involved....how easy they can be chanted, a rhyme of some kind and a pattern, some rules (such as the psalies for example), and including refrains that makes it easy for ALL to recite. that's why when someone is translating a madeha from arabic (unlike the coptic texts and other prayers texts), they must keep in mind that this will be chanted and that must be a little easy. any one can translate it something from a language to another......i can take a madeha to a professor in a uni. and he can translate it better then i'd ever can...but would we be able to sing it in church?! Christianity is a LIFE and not a religion. Every part of our life must be christian; mind, soul and body and everything within.
I will try to address the points that you made. I think the most important point is, indeed, the last one made by you, minagir, namely, that Christianity is a life and not a religion. Why do we rely so heavily on the Fathers, or look to our spiritual fathers who are living now for clarification and advice and so forth? It is because we wish to worship God in the correct manner using, as you stated, mind, soul, and body. We must have the correct understanding to do this properly.
If my understanding of God is not of sound doctrine, then I will worship Him improperly. This occurs quite often in songs both outside and in the Church. God is brought down in His glory to something that can be more easily related to, allowing the individual to feel good, but losing the magnificence that truly is God. On the other hand, as we have been discussing, there are songs which so glorify the Virgin that it truly does become worship. The point was made by minagir that these are simply exaggerations... but it is in exaggerations that we find heresies. I continue to come back to using the word heresy to signify the gravity of the matter; I am not referring to either of you as heretics, far from it, I just pray that we all move closer to God in the life of Christianity, the blessing that has been bestowed on us, in the proper way.
Mentioned as sources by minagir were Fr. Sarkis, Cantor Youhanna, and Abou El-Saad El-Aboutigi. I'm sure that each of the latter two had enough of a connection with the Church that the particulars of each of the hymns ascribed to them accurately reflected the dogmatic theology of the Church. Whether or not El-Aboutigi was a dangerous magician or not is of no consequence, as he repented... as did St. Cyprian, who was also a very powerful "sorcerer." As to the idea that St. Severus may be the originator of Omonogenees as provided by ophadece, I have come across such arguments, but the discussion of whether it was St. Athanasius or St. Severus who authored it is moot in our current discussion... it still stands to the fact that it was written by a learned clergyman who reflected the accurate beliefs of the Orthodox faith.
To the point that many can clarify their meaning... it is in their clarification that we find that there is indeed an issue. In my previous post, I suggested a logical progression of thought if we are to take it as true, sound belief that the Holy Virgin is the "cause" of all joy. Ophadece, you offered the Tamgeed of Owon Ohelpic in support of the argument of her being the cause of peace and tranquility... I will rely on the translation that is provided in this site which says: "All calmness in the world is through the prayers of the Theotokos Saint Mary the pure Virgin Mary." She, clearly, is not the source, but it is through her prayers that she pleads that the True Source (God) grant calmness in the world. There is no ambiguity in this, as it clearly does not state her to be the source, but rather an intercessor, and we understand her as such.
Briefly, I will say that we must not sacrifice our understanding in order to allow for something to rhyme in a more pleasing way. Again, most of the congregation will find their theology in hymns, and it is as such that extra care must be given to the hymns (or songs, as in our discussion) to accurately reflect what they should believe, so that when they do worship and integrate into their life as Christians, they do so in the proper manner. If this last point was a trivial one then no heretic should ever have been excommunicated and no councils called.
The Holy Virgin Mary's ranking, as ophadece stated, is as such in the Orthodox faith. It is in any exaggeration, as you stated earlier in the same post, that we further this ranking to her being equal with God. It is in the exaggerations that we begin to blur the lines in peoples minds, and truly lose our Orthodoxy, our worship, and our understanding of God as He has revealed it to us. We mustn't lose sight of the goal of hymns, songs, books, sermons. This is an important point and I hope that we don't take it lightly because we have simply fallen into the routine of doing them without understanding or questioning.
Ophadece, as to your question of what your reaction should be to such Arabic songs (and indeed, the English ones as well are laced with heresy), I cannot offer you a solution beyond saying that your conscience, guided by the Holy Spirit, should guide you. I see in your post that you show trepidation concerning the singing of such songs. Perhaps speaking with a spiritual father would be of benefit.
I realize that I am being quite obstinate in my stance, but let us realize that thousands have come before us that have died trying to preserve Orthodoxy against heresies concerning just a single word. Are we to allow heresies in just because we have become accustomed to them, or can rationalize them away, attempting to bridge the gap between true Orthodoxy and what is stated in a song? Don't let the effects of their martyrdom in this world be diminished.
childoforthodoxy
The first statement is WRONG because she didn't explicitly save Adam but Jesus did. The second statement is fine....why, because it doesn't explicitly say that she saved Adam but through Christ's birth of her, Adam was saved.
Oh dear!!
Eh da! You know, we all learn about Coptic Orthodoxy from the tasbeha, from the Holy Liturgy, from the songs in the CHurch, and I really fear such songs will make others falter. Eh da!
H.G. Anba Youannis made a point about EXPLICITLY telling everyone that St Mary is NOT a co-redeemer; yet such songs literally paint in her a light that is a co-redeemer.
Anyway, I'm glad my arabic is weak because I'm not into ARabic songs anyway, but what is the point of sticking to the Orthodox faith when we teach incomprehensible things to our children through such songs. Even the catholics do not go as far as saying she is a co-redeemer.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4474.msg108824#msg108824 date=1262333269]
The first statement is WRONG because she didn't explicitly save Adam but Jesus did. The second statement is fine....why, because it doesn't explicitly say that she saved Adam but through Christ's birth of her, Adam was saved.
Oh dear!!
Eh da! You know, we all learn about Coptic Orthodoxy from the tasbeha, from the Holy Liturgy, from the songs in the CHurch, and I really fear such songs will make others falter. Eh da!
H.G. Anba Youannis made a point about EXPLICITLY telling everyone that St Mary is NOT a co-redeemer; yet such songs literally paint in her a light that is a co-redeemer.
Anyway, I'm glad my arabic is weak because I'm not into ARabic songs anyway, but what is the point of sticking to the Orthodox faith when we teach incomprehensible things to our children through such songs. Even the catholics do not go as far as saying she is a co-redeemer.
where did it say she is a co-redeemer??!
There is some confusion still. Let's try another approach; I want to buy bigger house that is say, $600000. The house i have now is worth around $500000. I sell the house i have now and get 500000 from the buyer and get another 100000 from somewhere and with that i buy the house that i wanted that is 600000. Now, can you call the buyer who i sold the old house for 500000 my partner or my co-buyer in the NEW 600000 house?...NO.
Same to the Incarnation. Jesus took humanity from Saint Mary and the He saved Adam. Can we call saint Mary a co-savior?...NO!! but we can say we were saved THROUGH her becuase again, without her salvation would of not came to our race (as we say in our many hymns). I am not limiting God's authority by saying "without her"...it's just the way it is set in the Economy of God.
`nsorp men nofri rompi `mberi[/coptic]
First childoforthodoxy, thanks very much for the time you expended in writing your posts. You taught me many things through them. Let me tell you that when I disagreed with some of your points at the start, I wasn't totally opposed to what you say, or even thinking that those Arabic melodies as such provide a good framework for the true Orthodox faith. I do commend your obstinacy, if that is how you described it. As you rightly pointed out had it not been for this, ecumenical councils would not have been organised to defend against heresies. However, do I call these heresies? I am not sure these can be called as such - I may call them fallacies, which is a totally different description. I don't think those translations actually express what is written in Arabic well enough. As for "the cause of all joy" in Arabic it is written as "the start of all joy" (makes a great difference to me). As for "you saved Adam" I couldn't find it in the powerpoint presentation I downloaded. However again, having said all of that, I do agree with your zeal in opposing such fallacies and the need for clearing those songs up.
QT_PA_2T, I was surprised to hear that you agreed with childoforthodoxy in not wanting those Arabic songs, although a few months ago you were a strong opponent of Coptic hymns, and a strong proposer of translating them (well, to Arabic and then to other languages).
Mina, I think you are right in defending the theological point of Virgin Mary not having been depicted as a co-redeemer. I think that is mainly because you understand Arabic (like me), which I don't think childoforthodoxy does. The main problem seems to lie with the translation rather than the Arabic text, although I would still agree that the Arabic is full of fallacies nonetheless.
[coptic]ere V] `cmou eron tyren ouoh nai nan[/coptic]
God bless us all and have mercy on us
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
where did it say she is a co-redeemer??!
There is some confusion still. Let's try another approach; I want to buy bigger house that is say, $600000. The house i have now is worth around $500000. I sell the house i have now and get 500000 from the buyer and get another 100000 from somewhere and with that i buy the house that i wanted that is 600000. Now, can you call the buyer who i sold the old house for 500000 my partner or my co-buyer in the NEW 600000 house?...NO.
Same to the Incarnation. Jesus took humanity from Saint Mary and the He saved Adam. Can we call saint Mary a co-savior?...NO!! but we can say we were saved THROUGH her becuase again, without her salvation would of not came to our race (as we say in our many hymns). I am not limiting God's authority by saying "without her"...it's just the way it is set in the Economy of God.
Mina, you are saying that without her salvation would have not come to us. That is directly saying that God needed st. Mary (His creation) to save us. That is implying that she is a co-redeemer! There is a difference between what God's intentions were and what you are saying. God allowed man, (or in this case, woman) to have a share in taking part of salvation. This is not because He needed st. Mary, but so that He can unite us (through st. Mary) so that we can participate in His Divine plan. I am unaware of any hymns that say that we would have not been saved without her and I kindly ask if you can address any of them to me.
God bless
Tony
Mina, you are saying that without her salvation would have not come to us. That is directly saying that God needed st. Mary (His creation) to save us. That is implying that she is a co-redeemer! There is a difference between what God's intentions were and what you are saying. God allowed man, (or in this case, woman) to have a share in taking part of salvation. This is not because He needed st. Mary, but so that He can unite us (through st. Mary) so that we can participate in His Divine plan. I am unaware of any hymns that say that we would have not been saved without her and I kindly ask if you can address any of them to me.
Well i was only speaking considering that specific topic.
Tony, I still don't get much of what you are thinking. I guess it's about God needing Saint Mary....When you say "share in taking part of salvation," does that mean He would of incarnated without a human body?...am sorry, i guess my questions and what i am saying in general sounds like I am limiting God's authority and power, BUT AM NOT....It's all about His Plan for our salvation.
As i might of said before, on this post or another, there are a couple "rules" or more like characteristics for the Human that will save us and fulfill God's Divine Justice (i know that's a huge topic to). One of those is being of human flesh....which He took from Saint Mary.
God made man out of nothing. He can create anything instantly without any hesitation. What makes you think that Christ needed to dwell in st. Mary for Him to be human? He created her! As I already mentioned, God made man out of nothing. Remember that God is eternal and timeless; therefore, Christ was also eternal and timeless (since He is God). So if Christ was eternal and timeless, than He existed way before st. Mary. Does this make sense? I know this will definitely confuse some readers. Regarding your question; of course I am not implying He would have incarnated without a human body--but that's the point! He didn't need another human body (st. Mary) so that He could be human! So why did He choose st. Mary? Well, we believe that God wanted to involve mankind in His divine plan, just as He wanted us to be involved in the sacraments. He also choose st. Mary specifically because she loved Him more than anyone and that is what made her the perfect example of our human race.
God bless
Tony
Mina,
God made man out of nothing. He can create anything instantly without any hesitation. What makes you think that Christ needed to dwell in st. Mary for Him to be human? He created her! As I already mentioned, God made man out of nothing. Remember that God is eternal and timeless; therefore, Christ was also eternal and timeless (since He is God). So if Christ was eternal and timeless, than He existed way before st. Mary. Does this make sense? I know this will definitely confuse some readers. Regarding your question; of course I am not implying He would have incarnated without a human body--but that's the point! He didn't need another human body (st. Mary) so that He could be human! So why did He choose st. Mary? Well, we believe that God wanted to involve mankind in His divine plan, just as He wanted us to be involved in the sacraments. He also choose st. Mary specifically because she loved Him more than anyone and that is what made her the perfect example of our human race.
What you are saying is not something simple to understand. I still don't get your point.
First, about the Jesus and His natures. yes He existed in His divine nature but not as a human. He took the flesh from Saint Mary to be 2 natures in one, without mingling...etc (as we say in the confession in the liturgy).
YES, i know that God have the authority to do all what you are talking about. BUT HIS PLAN, that included satisfying His Divine Justice, was what happened and that including the incarnation from the current corruptible human nature. He has the authority to create another human body but that wouldn't of not been from the same nature that sinned. He, Jesus, would basically be of 2 natures, His divinity, and a humanity that the Father created and not the one that existed in sin. THAT, will not be just before God the Father because the Person that was sacrificed, Jesus, wasn't sacrificed for OUR NATURE but another one that was created.
You see what am talking about. You are not considering God's Divine Justice in all of this. This Divine Justice is where the rules i spoke about before are from.
I think you are complicating things to the point where you are confusing yourself. I am unable to give a response for the time being since I am currently studying for an upcoming exam for engineering students. I will hopefully soon reply with a response for you.
GB
Tony
In the case of this idea of God needing the Virgin Mary, it seems to me that we should consider two different uses of the word.
i. God has no needs at all. He does not need to do anything. He is totally free in all his actions, unlimited and unconstrained by any external force or agency. There is nothing he needs for his own existence, nothing and no-one he needs to fulfill his purposes. He speaks and his will comes into being. In this sense God does not need the Virgin Mary.
ii. But within what is called the 'economy of salvation', which is the working out of God's plan for mankind, we do find that God humbles himself to work with men and within the constraints of time and place. Not that this changes his eternal being, which remains unconstrained. But if I am talking to my 2 year old niece I need to speak simply and slowly and with a silly voice. Of course I do not need to in an absolute sense, I could just as easily talk to her like an adult, but I constrain myself in my relationship with her so that I accept the need to speak in a childish way.
It seems to me that God accepts certain constraints within his relationship with us, and according to the working out of his plan he chooses to speak to us like we were children, rather than always speaking like some pagan thunder God. Within the constraints of his plan he does indeed need the co-operation of the Virgin Mary. He has chosen THIS plan and not another, and THIS plan requires the co-operation of the Virgin Mary.
She is indeed not just any Jewish woman, but is the very best that humanity had to offer to God. The fruit of millenia of slowly dawning human recognition of who God is, what he wants from us and for us. Entirely given to God she had been prepared by God to be the Mother of his own Son, prepared for since even before the Fall of Adam and Eve. God had committed a great deal to this plan, but at each step he required the co-operation of those he called to obedience. If the Virgin Mary had not agreed then I am sure God would have worked out his plan in some other way, but as far as his will was concerned, he had chosen that his plan require the consent and engagement of the will of the Virgin Mary.
So there are different sense of the word need. In an absolute sense God needs nothing and no-one. But within the relationship with mankind, and for the sake of our salvation, God accepts certain constraints upon his absolute freedom. In this sense his plan needed the Virgin Mary.
God bless us
Father Peter