Hi,
I wanted to ask you where is Justice? Is there justice?
Where is God in delivering justice?
For example, today, I read a story of how a woman was murdered for no apparent reason except she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. OK... they found the killer, but even if he gets 30 years - its still no compensation.
Where is God's justice in all this? I mean, if that killer repents, he ends up in heaven with the rest of the saints. Where is the justice in that? Its so easy to repent.
I mean, there doesnt seem to be equilibrium.
If you go and watch a movie, and you watch a scene where the bad person gets away with murder, you leave the movie feeling absolutely unease. There's a strong sense of injustice, or imbalance that you cannot just shake off.
If God treats the sinner like the saint, where IS His justice?
I've seen people literally get away with murder, they say "sorry" and God forgives them. But what about the victim? What does he / she get?
And above all this, God says to us "Vengence is Mine" (i.e. its His).
What fat load of good that is when the person who is vengening for you, doesn't do anything. You might as well take the law in your own hands. I mean, even the law isn't just. The law can also get it wrong. So, what with God being "so slow to react" - and the legal system being really imbalanced and systematically rewarding violent behavior and irresponsibility, why would anyone want to depend on God, or the state for justice??
Comments
We are eternal beings. God has plenty of time to work out his justice. But if we really ask God to deal with us as deserve then are we prepared for the punishment each one of us deserves? We should be glad that God is patient and merciful because when we demand that he act in justice towards a murderer we should also be ready for him to act in justice towards us liars, cheaters, gluttons, adulterers etc etc.
God is slow to act, but this is for our salvation. Repentance is not easy. If we think it is then we do not know what repentance is. It takes a lifetime to learn, even if it takes a moment to begin. If those in prison could so easily repent then why do the vast majority not repent at all but go on to commit more crimes? If those of us outside prison could so easily repent then why have we sinned against God even today? What we all deserve and what God chooses in his mercy to do are different things. Let us be careful not to demand our own punishment when we ask God to take account of other's sins.
Father Peter
QT, you are describing the short term view. We don't only live for 30 or 50 or 70 years and that is it.
We are eternal beings. God has plenty of time to work out his justice. But if we really ask God to deal with us as deserve then are we prepared for the punishment each one of us deserves? We should be glad that God is patient and merciful because when we demand that he act in justice towards a murderer we should also be ready for him to act in justice towards us liars, cheaters, gluttons, adulterers etc etc.
God is slow to act, but this is for our salvation. Repentance is not easy. If we think it is then we do not know what repentance is. It takes a lifetime to learn, even if it takes a moment to begin. If those in prison could so easily repent then why do the vast majority not repent at all but go on to commit more crimes? If those of us outside prison could so easily repent then why have we sinned against God even today? What we all deserve and what God chooses in his mercy to do are different things. Let us be careful not to demand our own punishment when we ask God to take account of other's sins.
Father Peter
Short Term??
If someone does something bad against me, and I withhold my temper and do nothing in the hope of God's justice, and I see that God punishes that person, how much more would that draw my attention that God could also punish me for anything wrong I did. That would make us fear God.
I thought this was the case in the OT where God made an example of people so that others could learn to fear and put their trust in God??
But now God is silent. Now God is quiete, why would anyone seek His justice??
I thought - "what goes around comes around? " - but it doesn't. It stops somewhere and there seems to be a shortage of bad things going around to the bad people.
I mean, I might as well get a baseball bat and beat the life out of anyone that has done wrong things against me as I know God is SOOO slow to react and He wants my salvation, so I might as well make use of the good deal we get whilst we're alive and repent in the last minute!!??
But - where is justice in all this?? It doesnt make sense. God giving you justice is better than anything because it means He did not tolerate to see that. But when God tolerates evil, and lets it go unpunished - He sets a precedence - one where we know we can get away with murder and get rewarded for repenting for it.
Here's the justice:
Yeah, but I'm talking about the short sighted view.. not the long term.
The short term is I committed a crime - I've repented for it - what happens to the victim who trusted in God for Justice??
Look.
LET ME PUT IT TO YOU ALL SO SIMPLY:
A young kid tells you that whilst at school, they are being picked on - or bullied severely by other students. You tell the child to "pray" and let God deal "deal with it".
The child prays and then comes back and tells you: "Oh.. today, those that were bullying me were expelled from school" . You tell the child "You see!! GOd gives you your justice!!".
Now, if that same child comes back and tells you :"Gosh, those bullies are now prefects, and are leaders within the school.. " - what would you tell them ? "DO not seek vengence? " WOuld you run them past that post that Fr. Peter came out with when God's justice isn't working at full speed???
What would you do???
So, this is the short term view I'm talking about. Call it "petty" - call it "trivial" - but for a child it makes a LOT of difference, and so the same for a woman who has lost her son or daughter to violent crime.
Such a response from Fr. Peter is literally pushing anyone from saying "Gosh! To God, He equates my lying with someone murdering my son as being equal". My lie didnt kill anyone.. nor did my adultary of the heart. But someone going off and murdering someone's son is not at the same level, and to go and equate them both at the same level, and tell people to "TRUST IN GOD for JUSTICE" - is like basically drive them insane or on the verge of becoming vigilantes.
Father Peter
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8607.msg108588#msg108588 date=1261417807]
QT, you are describing the short term view. We don't only live for 30 or 50 or 70 years and that is it.
We are eternal beings. God has plenty of time to work out his justice. But if we really ask God to deal with us as deserve then are we prepared for the punishment each one of us deserves? We should be glad that God is patient and merciful because when we demand that he act in justice towards a murderer we should also be ready for him to act in justice towards us liars, cheaters, gluttons, adulterers etc etc.
God is slow to act, but this is for our salvation. Repentance is not easy. If we think it is then we do not know what repentance is. It takes a lifetime to learn, even if it takes a moment to begin. If those in prison could so easily repent then why do the vast majority not repent at all but go on to commit more crimes? If those of us outside prison could so easily repent then why have we sinned against God even today? What we all deserve and what God chooses in his mercy to do are different things. Let us be careful not to demand our own punishment when we ask God to take account of other's sins.
Father Peter
Short Term??
If someone does something bad against me, and I withhold my temper and do nothing in the hope of God's justice, and I see that God punishes that person, how much more would that draw my attention that God could also punish me for anything wrong I did. That would make us fear God.
I thought this was the case in the OT where God made an example of people so that others could learn to fear and put their trust in God??
But now God is silent. Now God is quiete, why would anyone seek His justice??
I thought - "what goes around comes around? " - but it doesn't. It stops somewhere and there seems to be a shortage of bad things going around to the bad people.
I mean, I might as well get a baseball bat and beat the life out of anyone that has done wrong things against me as I know God is SOOO slow to react and He wants my salvation, so I might as well make use of the good deal we get whilst we're alive and repent in the last minute!!??
But - where is justice in all this?? It doesnt make sense. God giving you justice is better than anything because it means He did not tolerate to see that. But when God tolerates evil, and lets it go unpunished - He sets a precedence - one where we know we can get away with murder and get rewarded for repenting for it.
this is only a reply to this post
QT, I have 2 parables to share with you, the first is The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard:
1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’
8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.” (Matthew 20:1-16)
and the second is The Parable of the Prodigal Son (but pay more attention to the older son or rather the contrast between both):
11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.”’
20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
25 “Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’
28 “But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. 29 So he answered and said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’
31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” (Luke 15:11-32)
Ask yourself if you agree with those people that are complaining or are jealous of the others whether it be the people who were working all day and wanted more than a denarius or the son who was serving his father and never transgressed his commandment and never even got a young goat to make merry with his friends!
Looking at sodr2's footer above, it says "Happiness depends on the relationship between man and God" (Pope Shenouda III) and this fits perfectly with what I am trying to convey. In the parable of the workers in the vineyard, the workers did not have this relationship with their master which is why they did not find happiness which explains them not being satisfied with just one denarius; whereas if they did have that relationship they would have found happiness in serving their master and they wouldn't EVEN care about that one denarius because they got much more than that and the same for the older son. The workers that only served for one hour missed out on all of this and also the same for the younger son. My friend, taking a baseball bat and beating all those who wronged you will not make you happy.
Also, I would like to point out that when God says, "Vengence is Mine", HE'S NOT KIDDING!
Check out this story of The Rich Man and Lazarus:
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” (Luke 16:19-31)
God Bless and pray for my weakness
Fr. Peter, our hearts are with you... may God comfort you and your family
Such a response from Fr. Peter is literally pushing anyone from saying "Gosh! To God, He equates my lying with someone murdering my son as being equal". My lie didnt kill anyone.. nor did my adultary of the heart. But someone going off and murdering someone's son is not at the same level, and to go and equate them both at the same level, and tell people to "TRUST IN GOD for JUSTICE" - is like basically drive them insane or on the verge of becoming vigilantes.
this is only a reply to the segment quoted above, not your whole post
My friend, listen to what the Bible says, "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22)
12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified
Don't forget that you're living on Earth and for whatever satisfies you now, you may regret it after. You shouldn't be considered about how the other will get punished, but instead about how he may be saved. As all know, you may see God's actions working on you when you show patience. Jesus suffered much more than us and he didn't ask from the Father to punish them, but to forgive them. Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots
I'm really sorry, but my thoughts and prayers are right now with our beloved Fr. Peter.
Can we resume this topic when he is OK? or at least when we have news about his family.
I'm actually in a bit shock.
(sorry, I don't mean to be rude and cut you off by not responding... but I won't be able to concentrate right now).
• Blessings and disasters often shared by good and bad
• The reason why the good and the wicked are equally afflicted
• Violation of chastity (Rape), without the will’s consent, cannot pollute the character
• The question of violence from others, and the lust of others suffered by an unwilling mind in a ravished body
• By what judgment of God the enemy’s lust was allowed to sin against the bodies of the chaste
In Christ
Theophilus
However, that is the annoying part - is that when we do see God's justice, it is more comforting than anything we could have wished for ourselves.
When we do not see it, it is so annoying. You feel that you should have just taken the law or the matter into your own hands.
"Against You, You only have I sinned and done this evil in your sight."
David never mentioned Bathsheba or her husband who he killed. From this, it seems that the only thing that matters is disobedience to God (ie sin). By this logic, when someone lets say has sex outside marriage, he has caused the same amount of "injustice" as someone who beheads someone. I say we should only ask where the justice is when someone disobeys God's commandments.
Which brings me back to my initial picture I posted in the thread - there's the justice. Problem solved. ;D
When pharoah's wife wanted to sin with him, he said "how can I commit before the Lord". He really feared God, despite going through a lot of injustices in life.
What made him be so obedient to God? A bishop was saying it was when he saw God's justice in his father's life.
Look at this amazing piece of justice: it so PERFECT:
Jacob DECEIVED his father to get the blessing of the 1st born. The desire was good, but deception is bad. What was Justice?
Jacob was also deceived by his uncle who married him to the wrong woman. Sure, marriage is good, but the way was full of deception. It is exactly the just punishment.
When you grow up seeing God's justice, and His punishment, you fear God and end up righteousness - like Joseph.
However, when you see systematic rewarding of irresponsibility and injustice... u cannot help but say to yourself - I might as well get justice by own hands - God will not venge for me.
That's my 2 cents anyway.
Please some one explain this to me.
A British man decides to join the military at a young age because he loves the discipline, he loves serving his country.
He sent off to Iraq. He dies.
Later on, it is revealed that Tony Blair lied to the nation, and world about weapons of Mass Destruction. Iraq actually posed no threat at all to the UK. He is questioned about why he decided to send the country to war, and he still cannot explain it. He just keeps on saying that removing Saddam from power was best for everyone. Yet, this is obviously not the case. He also justifies saying that his faith helped him make that decision.
Iraq has not appreciated being liberated from Saddam. Iraq is a worse off place than when saddam was in power.
OK. Now, here's the question:
THe family of that soldier - where is their justice when they see Tony Blair on magazines or TV having fun jet setting around the world on yachts , and having fun, whilst he is the only reason their son is dead?
For some odd reason, the world has not tried, in a court, Tony Blair and Bush, for these wars. In fact, Blair even wanted to get a job as the Head of the EU Parliment. Surely, this must add insult to injury for the family of that soldier when they see Tony Blair being rewarded in such a way?
How does God, who is "PERFECTLY JUST" - reward or punish this soldier's family? I mean, what is stopping this soldier's father from getting a gun and blowing Tony Blair's head off for revenge?
What does God have in mind for these wicked and irresponsible leaders?? WHat does he have in mind for the victims of their actions who have been righteous enough for not seeking justice on Blair themselves? Their lives will go, they will live in bitterness, they will die and NEVER SEE ONE OUNCE OF JUSTICE!!!!
Can someone explain to me what God has in mind? I'd like to know, because it is through these injustices that go by unpunished, unquestioned, unchallenged that people lose their faith in God.
Had people seen some sort of equilibrium, some sort of balance, then they would know that God truly is there watching and punishing others (and themselves). But when they don't see that - it hurts.
People want and need to believe in God because of the fact that there must be someone ultimately to judge the judges. For example, rather than impeach Blair or Bush, their governments did the exact opposite. So, there are even people in power to crooked to admit that Blair or Bush was wrong. Most likely because it would mean going against AMerica's decision for war. At the end of the day, 1000's of US and British soldiers were killed in Iraq, and it is for a reason that is unjustified - both economically, or socially.
This is just an example, but there are so many cases in life where there is injustice, and very few times we see God's hand in delivering any sort of punishment.
Just now, in Britain we are seeing soldiers on the tv, some with dreadful injuries, being hailed as heroes. Some of them no doubt are but they are also responsible (as soldiers are) for the death and destruction of lives of people far away. That's the system.
Obama came in with high hopes upon him but in the end he bows to the system and sends more troops in case the natives in Afghanistan take American/NATO power too lightly and possibly make their own voices heard.
Tony Blair will wriggle out of what would be just-a war crimes tribunal. The chances of watching him swing on Youtube are negligible. Saddam was doing the best for his country, in truth in a brutal but fairly effectual way. Unfortunately for him he was executed by the more powerful.
Over the ages injustice has reigned. Indigineous folk who never hurt a fly wiped out. Just causes (like the Pilgrimage of Grace in Henry V111's England) brutally suppressed.
That's the way things are and always have been. Why fume about Tony Blair? After all, ''Vengeance is mine, I will repay' says the Lord.' Justice is something we can only approximate down here.
P.s. I heard yesterday of an elderly couple who lost their only (15 year old) son thirty years ago and have no idea what became of him. Can you imagine how that must be? Unimaginable. What can a believer say to them if called upon to do so? Better to say nothing. However, privately,that story is part of the sorry world we live in and from which we hope to find salvation. We can also ask the Lord not to put us to that kind of test.
May God bless us all
1. it's only those iraqis who were in saddam hussein's political party who wish he didn't die. i have close iraqi friends (sunni married to shia') who told me many of the terrible things he did. most of them are too terrible to write here on a public forum. the one i can tell you is that he would send soldiers to the parents of political prisoners and anyone else unlawfully killed and they would hold up a bullet and say 'this is the bullet that killed your son/daughter, you must now pay me the cost of the bullet, so the state doesn't have to pay to get rid of the dirt of society'. one of my friends is now in iraq visiting family as it is now safe enough to visit. they say everyone they know had someone in their family unlawfully killed under the old regime. i also have Christian friends from iraq, and it was even worse for them. those i know fled from iraq before the first gulf war. it's true the war was a farce and we weren't told the truth, and it's certainly true that life in many parts of iraq is very hard, but it's not true that life was better before.
2. i was reading yesterday in luke about loving your enemies and letting your enemies take from you what's rightfully yours. it seems crazy until you realise that none of the peace and love we have from God is something we deserve. we live half-heartedly, miss out praying, take great pride in doing one good deed in a whole 24 hours and God doesn't even slap our faces. it is impossible to even imagine the suffering and the rejection Jesus our Saviour encountered on this earth let alone imagine we have experienced something similar, even if terrible things happen to us like the death of a child, this is less than the pain of Jesus seeing all the injustice and taking the blame Himself.
sodr has it right when he gives a short, simple answer. this is a difficult topic and no words can help us to understand this better than meditating on the death and resurrection of our dear Saviour.
i also watched the story of saint beshnuna yesterday. he lived a simple life (about year 1200) and did a lot of good things and was later martyred for his faith. he wasn't the strongest or bravest, as the story shows, he struggled to face his final torture and prayed to God for strength (which he received). this is an encouragement to all of us to focus our thoughts on God, and only then will our troubled hearts find relief. there are many similar movies here to watch online:
http://stmarycoptic.com/movies1.htm
in summary, i can't find the words to make sense of all the injustice in your past, but we do know the Word who makes sense of our future.
QT_?????
I would really like to know how you can talk for GOD???
I mean how can u tell others how GOD feels about random issues like the ones you have described?? Can u really say you know how GOD feels about these things and what HE is doing? You do not know what GOD is doing. HE says peoples judgement is not idle and I believe HIM!!!
What do you know??!!
Not to be rude, but really what do you know about GODS feelings and actions and such...... ???
I think you should get to know, cause GODS greatest gift to mankind is Love.
I think men should get together and find solutions to our problems instead of just complaining all the time.......the ball is in our court! We have to rise up and take control of this earth, utilizing all the endowments GOD has given us!
GODS judgements are not idle, I think mens are though and we as mankind have a duty to address and correct our situations.
I don't know what God is thinking or feeling. All I know is that there are injustices and I'd like to know where IS the justice? How does it happen?
A man's family is murdered by some violent person. It has ruined generations of a family. The murder confesses, dies and goes to heaven. Where is the justice for the victim?
WHen God says: "Vengeance is Mine" - what did He have in mind ?
WHat is God's idea of Vengeance? Why shouldn't we all go out and get a sawn off shot gun and blow the brains out of those responsible? If we repent and confess, God forgives us, and yet we have had some justice?
WHat are the benefits of waiting for God to give us Justice?
Perhaps we should take a step back and reflect on the larger picture for just a moment. It seems as though we have associated justice for vengeance in our lives, and want it to occur in such a fashion that its timing and effects are visible to us, if we are to be called the "victims" in the situation. We must keep in mind that God is outside of time, outside of its barriers, and subsequently, His actions are seen as taking "too long" at times. In a world in which immediate gratification has taken the forefront of our minds and is what we expect in nearly all facets of our lives, it is important to regain the understanding that God deals with situations in His own way, on His on time, and we need not be aware of such things. Yes, it may be more personally comforting to see that God "stands on our side" and acts seemingly as a big brother would, defending our name and honor when we are wronged... but is this spiritually beneficial?
Let us take an example. Say the preceding were to actually happen, God immediately acted, and the victim gained the comfort spoken of previously. You may say that this will bring the person closer to God, but this is done in somewhat of a false, incomplete way. The person begins to favor God (I use favor and not love because this is not love of God) because of what God has done for them, but more importantly, what they perceive God can do for them. When another situation arises in the future in which the person feels that they require the immediate assistance of God in their loves, and God "delays" in this situation, what happens to the person's faith? Do they feel that God has left them? If their only sense of God is whether or not their "big brother on the playground" is standing most apparently next to them, defending their honor, then when they cannot see him in the way that they would like, they will lose faith. This, of course, is an over generalization, but I think that it is a worthy fact to keep in mind.
Let us take another step back. When something occurs to us, we feel that we have been wronged and demand revenge, whether by our own hands or by God's; if we do not receive it, we are angered... is this not pride? We expect God to do something, we expect Him to act openly in our lifetime, in a way that we can directly see an effect has been completed. It is centered around us, and not around God. We make ourselves the center of the created universe, putting God to work for us as though He were slave and not Master, as a person to do our bidding and not as the Pantokrator. Is this not a warped vision of God? Has this not resulted from our own vision of ourselves and what we believe to be deserving of?
In brief response to your last post, QT, concerning the method of taking the situation into our own hands... I fear that this is often the mindset that we take concerning several sins in our lives, particularly those of habit. If we are on the brink of sinning, we rationalize the sin away by saying that we will simply go to confession after the sin is committed, and because God is such a loving God, He will forgive us. We have legalized confession in this regard. We have made it an "if, then" process. It is almost as though we imagine God to be a machine or computer program... if I input this, I am guaranteed this output. Where is God in this? Are we fooling God? Where is my repentance in this? Can I truly assume that I will repent after having committed the sin, whatever it may be? Repentance is a very deep action that is guided by the Holy Spirit. Let us not make God into a simple machine with expected outcomes.
Let us refocus ourselves. We were created out of God's love and are sustained by His love. I do not understand God in His fullness, nor do I understand His actions and the reasons behind them... and I am not required to. This is faith. This is trusting in God, even when I do not see the result that I desire, for He knows all and wishes for us only the best, not as we determine it in our limited minds, but as He determines it in His unlimited, infinite love.
childoforthodoxy
Tsunami: Where was God?
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/tsunami-where-was-god/4od#3018059
This link leads to an excellent 102 minutes programme entitled "Tsunami: where was God?" by the British TV Channel 4, available for 4 weeks only on this link. It is a very good summary of how different Faiths (Religions), and the Father of Atheists, Richard Dawkins, answer the question of: Why do the innocent suffer? When you click play, it will show some adverts for 1-2 minutes until it downloads the programme; be patient! Must watch the last 25 minutes they are the best, showing how Christians (sensible and extremist fanatics!) understand this dilemma. While the programme is playing, you can move the cursor forward and wait a little to get to that point in the programme if you do not want to watch the whole 102 minutes.
Hi, I just got this email that I'm posting on here as it is relevant to this topic:
Tsunami: Where was God?
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/tsunami-where-was-god/4od#3018059
This link leads to an excellent 102 minutes programme entitled "Tsunami: where was God?" by the British TV Channel 4, available for 4 weeks only on this link. It is a very good summary of how different Faiths (Religions), and the Father of Atheists, Richard Dawkins, answer the question of: Why do the innocent suffer? When you click play, it will show some adverts for 1-2 minutes until it downloads the programme; be patient! Must watch the last 25 minutes they are the best, showing how Christians (sensible and extremist fanatics!) understand this dilemma. While the programme is playing, you can move the cursor forward and wait a little to get to that point in the programme if you do not want to watch the whole 102 minutes.
i can't watch his......i live in the US and i guess they don't allow it here?!!
But after talking to many atheists and anti-Christians, the ONE thing that has led them to despair in God is "Justice".
"God allows bad things to happen - where is the compensation?"
"God asks us not to avenge and He will avenge for us - where is His vengeance?"
Why would any human being even bother believing in God if ultimately they get the feeling that there is no "Higher" justice: there is no one going to judge you or punish you for doing anything wrong. All He's going to do is forgive you for your sins.
I find this really interesting.
Look. Saint Paul executed Saint Steven. That was obviously before Saul (Paul) knew Christ. Can we call it "God's Justice" that Saint Paul died a terrible death?
Saint Mozes killed others. He also was killed. Can we call that justice? In my reasoning - yes. We can.
But outside of Biblical or religious stories, if we look at our daily lives - is ANYONE going to get any justice? If so, what is it?
Please don't tell me: "Do you know how God thinks, do you know what God is planning" - I don't know, but all I know is God wants others to believe in Him, and there doesnt seem to be any return on investment for this belief.
I'm not saying this myself. I DO believe in God.. but I'm being the devil's advocate on behalf of those who think this way. I cannot answer them. I cannot tell ANYONE: "God will give you justice.. just don't do anything wrong" - because it seems His Justice is not to punish anyway. At least not for Orthodox Christians, because we do not even believe in purgatory.
See, the catholics can answer this question easily because they have purgatory. To them, it is the place where you go to get punished because "God is fair".
i.e. - God is just.
So, for a Catholic, if I go off and murder someone and then repent my sins; I am forgiven and God will welcome me in Paradise. However, because God is fair and "just" - I still must pay for my crimes, and this means getting a grilling in purgatory before being allowed to enjoy Paradise.
But Orthodox Chrisitans, we do not have purgatory. It seems that if we commit a crime, repent and confess it, and have a peaceful death. We're straight in Paradise. No grilling, no time wasting; Boom.. we're there. So where is justice? There is no equilibrium in the Orthodox after life.
here is one example that i applaud you for although i don't really get your question:
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
I was trying to rephrase the question. But I agree with Child of Orthodoxy's answer, What I am expecting is for them to re-phrase the answer to someone who is atheist BECUASE they do not see GOd's justice. I mean, his answer, although correct etc - I think needs to be restructured for a non Orthodox audience.
Also, with each topic I write, I try and stop discussing it until i get at least 3000 views. I know its not a competition, but it is a personal goal I like to reach. I go to the stats pages each day to see which topic has the most views, and I've always wanted to beat that.
Don't get me wrong, this topic IS serious and it is on my mind, but I wanna get more people involved, and some people only join in the discussion by reading the last (most recent) post - so i always recapitulate.
WHat do u think?
Additionally, Orthodoxy is not simply "feel-good" Christianity; not everything will just be immediately pleasing for us, but I do not modify Orthodoxy to work for me. It is I who must grow through Orthodoxy. In a society where things are either quickly accepted or thrown out with little thought, this becomes difficult. No one said Orthodoxy would be easy.
In terms of purgatory, this has been discussed previously on these forums. In terms of Orthodoxy, we have also discussed toll-houses. I advise you to go and look up the posts that discussed the toll-houses.
In the liturgy that the Coptic Orthodox congregation participate in at least on a weekly basis, a line is presented which says the following... "According to your mercy, O Lord, and not according to our sins." Let us truly reflect on this.
childoforthodoxy
Hey mr Least,
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
I was trying to rephrase the question. But I agree with Child of Orthodoxy's answer, What I am expecting is for them to re-phrase the answer to someone who is atheist BECUASE they do not see GOd's justice. I mean, his answer, although correct etc - I think needs to be restructured for a non Orthodox audience.
Also, with each topic I write, I try and stop discussing it until i get at least 3000 views. I know its not a competition, but it is a personal goal I like to reach. I go to the stats pages each day to see which topic has the most views, and I've always wanted to beat that.
Don't get me wrong, this topic IS serious and it is on my mind, but I wanna get more people involved, and some people only join in the discussion by reading the last (most recent) post - so i always recapitulate.
WHat do u think?
Dear QT,
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you too
in my personal opinion, this is a bad idea. You should stop discussing when your questions have been answered and you're convinced. It's nice to see that you care about others and you want them to learn from the answers that are given to your questions just as you are learning but this is not the way. I think this is something that draws people away from these forums... when they see that the question is being asked over and over in the same forum. To be honest sometimes when I look at older forums... I skip your posts because I know they're just the same thing.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=8607.msg108782#msg108782 date=1262174169]
Hey mr Least,
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
I was trying to rephrase the question. But I agree with Child of Orthodoxy's answer, What I am expecting is for them to re-phrase the answer to someone who is atheist BECUASE they do not see GOd's justice. I mean, his answer, although correct etc - I think needs to be restructured for a non Orthodox audience.
Also, with each topic I write, I try and stop discussing it until i get at least 3000 views. I know its not a competition, but it is a personal goal I like to reach. I go to the stats pages each day to see which topic has the most views, and I've always wanted to beat that.
Don't get me wrong, this topic IS serious and it is on my mind, but I wanna get more people involved, and some people only join in the discussion by reading the last (most recent) post - so i always recapitulate.
WHat do u think?
Dear QT,
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you too
in my personal opinion, this is a bad idea. You should stop discussing when your questions have been answered and you're convinced. It's nice to see that you care about others and you want them to learn from the answers that are given to your questions just as you are learning but this is not the way. I think this is something that draws people away from these forums... when they see that the question is being asked over and over in the same forum. To be honest sometimes when I look at older forums... I skip your posts because I know they're just the same thing.
Its not that I'm not convinced.. i just don't think the explanations given really were sufficient.
I'm not at all saying this because the views haven't passed 3000.. (that was just a side joke)..
Look: why isn't God consistent with Justice? I mean - in the Bible, those who did bad things, even though they were good people, were punished severely. Where has all that gone?
You want to know where God's justice is? Look to the Cross of Christ. There's your Divine justice. Now move on.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
You want to know where God's justice is? Look to the Cross of Christ. There's your Divine justice. Now move on.
Mr K, I have no idea how to pronounce or even write your name, but I think there is a misunderstanding here.
I'm talking about Admonition as being a form of justice.
This is what our priest said:
David killed a man, and committed adultary with his wife. His own son tried to kill him and was killed himself. The son he had with that woman was also taken away (as PUNISHMENT). It says so clearly in the Bible.
Moses killed an Egyptian, and so he was denied to enter into the land as punishment.
You see??
WHy are you all telling me about Divine Justice? Divine Justice is another topic that has to do with repaying God for the sins of the World. That has NOTHING to do with admonition.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are all so far off, that this question hasn't even been answered in the slightest.
Hmn. Are you sure you don't mean when is there justice rather than where? We know where there is justice. With God. Judgement Day. That was always my impression as to when and where. Maybe "how" is an overall summary question word. How are these things that happen just??? This is a big question... However, personally, I think repenting is so difficult. You consider it easier.? What I mean is image this; if someone killed a person how do they dare pray to God? How do they manage it, how do they manage to have a pure heart, how are they forgiven? Inside us is such a struggle! How can this be easy to deal with. Nothing is impossible, however, through God!
Who else can see into every person's heart; this is the crucial attachment with justice that I think you may consider. If every judge in a court room could see into the defendent's heart, how would justice be defined as. Now keep adding on!!! What if that judge loved all his children (which would not be bias during occupation because they are all his children, who believe in him). Now, I do not know how a normal judge rules at all. The rules aren't made up by any one human judge in the system. But, for God, (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) we say God is the Word, so really, i don't know how He is Just, but we do know He set up the system.
So, really, i have no answer; i do not know. We pray in the liturgy for God to judge us according to His mercy and not our deeds.
The main thing is, there are cases that do not seem mundanely just. Just how can we determine that? Leave it up to God and trust in the Church. Right?