Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
Girls
I've been puzzled by this question. Why aren't girls allowed to go into the Ourban room?
thanxs
GBU
thanxs
GBU
Comments
I've been puzzled by this question. Why aren't girls allowed to go into the Ourban room?
thanxs
GBU
the orban room, Bethlehem, where the Lamb is made is like the Sanctuary in church. I am sure why you know why can't women enter the Sanctuary.
I don't like to use the word "unclean" referring to this.....I am sure abouna Tadrous didn't say that. But of course, the Lamb orban, the hamal, must be done by males, more specifically oghnostos deacons. In my church there are a couple of old ladies that do the small orban there by they are over sixty and were never married....i am sure you get why is all of this.
What makes one unclean is not your gender but your sins.
This has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with culture/tradition.
What makes one unclean is not your gender but your sins.
easy there habibi. Like I said. Go check the reasons why can't a woman enter the sanctuary.
anyways, i am not sure, we have different groups of people who make orban in our church kitchen, and college girls do help out. is it really wrong?
[quote author=grace08 link=topic=8715.msg109440#msg109440 date=1264005474]
This has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with culture/tradition.
What makes one unclean is not your gender but your sins.
easy there habibi. Like I said. Go check the reasons why can't a woman enter the sanctuary.
Please do not call me habibi.
There is no reason that a woman can't enter the sanctuary. Please find me any examples of this in the New testament.
Even Jesus allowed bleeding woman to touch him and be healed. But she was supposedly "unclean" and should have stayed several feet away?
Luke 8 43-48
Now a woman, having a flow of blood for twelve years, who had spent all her livelihood on physicians and could not be healed by any, came from behind and touched the border of His garment. And immediately her flow of blood stopped. And Jesus said, “Who touched Me?”
When all denied it, Peter and those with him said, “Master, the multitudes throng and press You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’” But Jesus said, “Somebody touched Me, for I perceived power going out from Me". Now when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling; and falling down before Him, she declared to Him in the presence of all the people the reason she had touched Him and how she was healed immediately. And He said to her, “Daughter, be of good cheer;your faith has made you well. Go in peace.”
There are a few things that we need to be aware of.
i. All of the local Orthodox Churches have aspects of their life which are cultural rather than purely theological and spiritual. Indeed it is impossible for theology and spirituality not to be inculturated in particular ways. It may well be the same theology and spirituality but it needs to find a home and a proper expression in each culture.
ii. There are things in our Coptic Orthodox practice which are different to those practiced in other sister Churches. This is not because one way is right and another is wrong, but because in different situations the Orthodox life is lived out in ways which are culturally appropriate.
iii. Sometimes the lesson taught by a particular practice has a value even in places where it is not culturally normal. Sometimes practices do not carry across very well at all because of a blameless difference of culture. In these cases there is room within an Orthodox theology and spirituality for a difference in practice.
iv. Sometimes as a local Church finds itself in a new cultural context, or even with the cultural changes caused by the passage of time, an Orthodox Church needs to review some practices and ask if they are still communicating a true theology and spirituality in an appropriate manner.
If we take some examples.
a. The British Orthodox Church uses the normal Western calendar for all of the feasts outside of the Lenten/Paschal/Pentecostal cycle because in our mission to British people there is a valuable point of contact in using the same, traditional and Christian calendar. Yet the Coptic Orthodox Church uses the normal Julian calendar for all dates. Is this a problem? It has not become one in the 16 year I have been a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
b. The feasts of Nativity, Theophany, and Epiphany did not develop all at once, and in different places were celebrated at different times. Even today the Armenian Orthodox practice is different to all others, yet it is the most ancient. Should all Orthodox Churches insist that everyone must keep all feasts on the same date? Or is it more important that the feasts are kept, even if local practice places them on different days?
c. It is traditional in the Coptic Orthodox Church for all communicants to remove their shoes before receiving the Holy Mysteries. Very few other Orthodox Churches observe this practice. In the British Orthodox Church this has been adopted as a custom because it is meaningful and beautifully spiritual, even if it has not been observed in the past in the British Isles. Indeed it is easy to imagine that in Northern Europe, where the floors of Churches were cold, dirty and muddy, even with the best of efforts, it was not likely that removing footwear would be practiced.
So we see that some practices are different among all Orthodox, others may be adopted because they have a wider value, others are universal among all Orthodox.
When we come to the matter of women in the Church, and especially at certain times of the month, then we find that there has been and remains something of a diversity of approaches. The very ancient and authoritative Teaching of the Apostles, for instance, states that women should be allowed to commune at any time, as does the teaching of Pope Gregory the Great of Rome in the 6th century. Yet the Alexandrian practice was always more restrictive, and in other centuries the practice of Slavic Orthodox Churches also tended to be restrictive. Those writers I have studied suggest that the Syrian view of the human body was rather different to the Semitic and Coptic view.
It is clear that the Syrian Orthodox have choirs of women, and even the Russian and other Slavic Churches among the Eastern Orthodox have women choirs. Yet the Coptic Orthodox generally do not. There does seem to be a clear cultural difference. Yet this does not give us the liberty to dismiss any particular practice as 'cultural'. The Orthodox faith can only be lived out in particular cultures, and this is how it has been formed in the context of our Coptic Orthodoxy.
There are restrictions placed on women in the Coptic Orthodox Church. But there are also restrictions placed on men. There is a particular view of the body which embraces all those who are members of the Coptic Orthodox Church. It is certainly not due to a negative view of women in particular. Now this view is not universal among all Orthodox, so we are able to say that it is not of the essence of the Orthodox Faith to hold these view - clearly other Orthodox do not. But it is part of our Coptic Orthodoxy and therefore we should be hesitant and humble in expressing a difference of opinion.
There are things which are not entirely properly ordered in our modern Coptic Orthodox Church. I have seen a wide variety of vestments worn by members of the minor orders in different ways. It is clear that the diaconate is not well organised, and we do not have the full deacons we should, and almost every other male seems to be considered a deacon when they may be only acolytes or singers. So if we wish to remind our sisters of some canonical regulations then we need to consider all those which have a bearing on men as well. There are a variety of reasons why a man should not receive communion for instance, just as there are those which impinge on a woman. It is also the case that no man should enter the altar unless he has a particular liturgical function, this is not a restriction only for women.
What should a person do if they disagree with the cultural expression of the Orthodox Faith within the Coptic Orthodox Church? I would propose that firstly it is necessary to place any such objection in context. The Coptic Orthodox Church has survived 1500 years of persecution thanks to God's grace, this does not mean it does not make mistakes, but it does mean that the issue someone might have with one aspect of the life of the Church must be placed in context and be proportionate. I can think of things which concern me about the life of our Church, but when I consider the recent history which she has had to endure then it is possible to understand how things come about and be sympathetic even while remaining concerned.
Secondly we must ensure that we are in a good relation with Christ and the members of his Body. We should not allow our concern on one matter to spoil our wider spiritual life. Nor should we allow possible disagreements with others to come between a warm sense of fellowship. God is greater than all of our concerns, whether those concerns are with matters inside or outside of the Church.
Thirdly, it is not unreasonable to ask the opinion and advice of serious minded Christians and especially priests and bishops. If we have taken the time to study whatever concerns us then our questions will show that we would value and appreciate a serious and considered answer, especially if we express the view that we do not wish to disturb the Church but do find ourselves troubled by some matter.
Fourthly, in so far as we are able, it is good to be obedient while we have concerns, unless it is a matter so serious that we are afraid it might be a matter of sin. But I mean we should seek to please God by being obedient even while seeking the advice of others, because this shows that we are not elevating our own understanding above the Church. There have been times in my life as an Orthodox when my bishop has said, 'I would like you to do this', and I have not entirely understood or agreed, but I have obeyed because I know that my own understanding is weak.
Fifthly, we do need to understand that as Coptic Orthodox there is a degree in which we must say, 'This is the way we do things here'. I am not free to say to myself, I really like that Syrian prayer I read yesterday, I think I will add it to the Liturgy'. I am not free to say, 'The Armenian vestments are so much more imperial than my own, I think I will start dressing like an Armenian priest'. If I want to follow Armenian practices then to some extent I must decide to become an Armenian Orthodox. If I want to follow Syrian practices then I must to some extent become a Syrian Orthodox. Yet there is the possibility of change.
The Coptic Orthodox Church keeps the Fast of Nineveh, but this was a Syrian fast which was adopted in Egypt. It is possible that especially in the West, as we are drawn into a closer and closer fellowship with our brothers and sisters in the other Oriental Orthodox Churches we may come to adopt some of their practices, and they adopt some of ours. But we cannot rush these things or force them.
It is the case that generally Coptic priests will adhere to the traditional understanding of how men and women should relate their own bodily functions to participation in the liturgy, and entrance into various parts of the Church building. But it is ultimately a pastoral and spiritual matter, and in the personal relationship of the spiritual father to his child it is possible that for the good of that soul some personal advice will be given, which is not meant to be universal or public.
I am not sure this is at all a definite answer to anything. It may be that especially in the West some aspects of our Orthodox practice will change over time because our Orthodoxy must take root in a new culture, just as once the Jewish Orthodox faith made allowances for the Coptic culture and allowed Orthodoxy to grow in a Coptic way.
But for now the best person to raise these issues with is one's priest. And especially if some intelligent, prayerful and humble study has been conducted by the one with concerns. If the priest says something we don't like then we always have a choice, but sometimes, indeed very often in such situations, there is a blessing that comes from cheerful obedience even if we still disagree. God will hear our prayers, whatever our concerns, and if we are humble and do not push our opinions forward as if we alone know the truth, then we leave space for God to help us and heal us.
May God bless you
Father Peter
thankyou all for your responses and sharing your knowledge.
God bless you all
the Holy Communion is not a reward for being a good boy, that is the false religion of santa claus and those people who expect all 'good' people to go to 'heaven' including their pet dog.
the Holy Communion is the gift we don't deserve, that we take seriously, after repenting, realising we will never be 'good' enough to go to heaven. through taking Holy Communion, God is present IN US and, by the power of His Holy Spirit, gives us the strength to resist the devil and live for Him.
please don't stop taking Holy Communion, if necessary, go to a coptic, indian, armenian or syriac orthodox church.
first of all: you have an orban room?!?! ahh rich churches :P
my church is a box, yet we still have one ;) are you basing this on emotion or logic? but thats the beauty of the Coptic church, just as God commanded Moses to take off his shoes Cultural expression meaning things like male genital mutilation being customary? Yeah, I disagree with that.
It is clear that the Syrian Orthodox have choirs of women, and even the Russian and other Slavic Churches among the Eastern Orthodox have women choirs. Yet the Coptic Orthodox generally do not.
This is off topic.. but some Coptic Churches do in Cali.. they let the girls (teenagers) wear uniforms (tonyaish) and stand up front and sing... but thats a whole another topic by itself :P sorry for sidetracking ;D
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8715.msg109449#msg109449 date=1264016204]
It is clear that the Syrian Orthodox have choirs of women, and even the Russian and other Slavic Churches among the Eastern Orthodox have women choirs. Yet the Coptic Orthodox generally do not.
This is off topic.. but some Coptic Churches do in Cali.. they let the girls (teenagers) wear uniforms (tonyaish) and stand up front and sing... but thats a whole another topic by itself :P sorry for sidetracking ;D
Girls chanting in a chorus is no problem AT ALL......they also do it in other Churches i seen. Because praise and chanting in church is really "the people's" job during the liturgy as you see in book's that there are the "People Response" and not the "deacons ourside responses"....and they let them wear tonai, or something similar to make them feel better/special :)
Girls chanting in a chorus is no problem AT ALL
except it sounds bad and less holy lol
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8715.msg109485#msg109485 date=1264087663]
Girls chanting in a chorus is no problem AT ALL
except it sounds bad and less holy lol
first, be carful to not get yourself in trouble with girls....egy gals are not easy at all.... ;)
second, personally, i don't see how is it "less holy"?!
can you dig it ?
maybe im just being harsh :( and lol i got 99 problems, but egytian girls aint a thang, dig what im sayin
I know we are only joking around, and I am not saying this to pick on any person at all. But I am sure that those young women who serve in Church choruses in various Churches take their service as seriously as any young men in the choirs of deacons.
Father Peter
I don't think the Ethiopian orthodox church will deteriorate in any way ever .As weak in faith as i am , Niether do i go to church to keep up appearances but to seek the one true god .
may you be very blessed, and please pray for me too, a sinner.
I still have unresolved issues with this subject. The first thing I am going to say though is that I don't think we ever received this from our Coptic forefathers in any generation and we can't just invent rites. I have to also say that the whole point, of priests and deacons being males is because Jesus Christ came to us in the form of a man. How the creation was perceived is that man is the origin, and the woman is from him. Yes, I am aware that there are deaconesses since the apostles age, but these were called such as they were helping the apostles in worldly matters (not necessarily spiritual). I am afraid that by permitting deaconesses to wear tunics and stoles, the time will come when we see female priests, and bishops. I don't think this sits right with the Coptic Orthodox church. Please let me ask a few questions, and if anyone can answer some of them, or all of them, please do:
1. those deaconesses who sing hymns - where do they get their tunics and stoles sanctified? in the altar?
2. let's say for argument sake, in one of the churches no male deacons knew the hymn evlogimenoc the great, and there was time to sing, would one deaconess lead, or sing it by herself? If it is improper, why? Would that not let them down and make them feel like subordinates?
3. let's say if there is shortage in the number of deacons, as is sometimes the case in the churches of the diaspora, will the deaconesses be allowed to read the epistles, or the gospels?
4. have we ever seen a last supper icon with women in it? even though I am sure there were some women attending, and not only the disciples (but I may be wrong), but we haven't received it in such a manner. The church does convey the pictures through our practice as well. How can there be deaconesses then?
I think the only exception to those questions is that when priests go to pray in nuns' convents. Inevitably the nuns will serve as deaconesses singing hymns after the priest, but I am pretty sure that there are other male deacons who serve inside the altar with the priest. I am not entirely clear as I have never been to one of those convents attending liturgies before.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
1. those deaconesses who sing hymns - where do they get their tunics and stoles sanctified? in the altar?
No they don't get them sanctified. It's not a real tonia but merely just a "uniform".. they are not ordained.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=8715.msg109520#msg109520 date=1264165768]
2. let's say for argument sake, in one of the churches no male deacons knew the hymn evlogimenoc the great, and there was time to sing, would one deaconess lead, or sing it by herself? If it is improper, why? Would that not let them down and make them feel like subordinates?
If the priest allows it and it's a small church then yes... This happens in my church all the time.. we have deacons that don't know simple hymns so the girls lead... the girls lead A LOT in my church. And when we do the hitenes the males say the coptic and the girls lead the english... its a very very small church, so we are all basically standing next to each other (mics are useless lol). But as I said before, the priest has to approve or else the girls shouldnt be granted permission to lead. The girls in my church also play the cymbals and triangle (also because the deacons don't know how to). I think this is just temporary until our deacons learn, then they will lead. It's a new church and not many people attend.. it's hasnt been midashin by the Pope yet.. oh and when we have guest deacons (that know alhan..etc) then they lead, not the girls.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=8715.msg109520#msg109520 date=1264165768]
3. let's say if there is shortage in the number of deacons, as is sometimes the case in the churches of the diaspora, will the deaconesses be allowed to read the epistles, or the gospels?
Not the gospel, the priest would read that... but of course you cant have a liturgy with at least ONE deacon, so either the priest of that one deacon. But there was a girls retreat and the priest allowed the girls to read the epistles... but on normal sundays or liturgy days during the week, I would assume the deacon would read it... that retreat was a special case and abouna wanted to get the girls involved shwaya.
And for your last question...
they are not deaconesses in cali, they are just there for show lol (sorry if theres anyone from cali reading this) but it's true... they really dont do anything, they just wear a uniform, stand in the front of the girls side and sing along with the deacons, they dont lead or do anything. The bishop in cali allowed this because he wanted to get the girls involved, but like I said they have no official position in church, they are just for SHOW.
I hope this clears up a few things.. I would elaborate more but I have to go to class :P
Let me know if you have any other questions!
hottchico, I think what you said is understandable. My only problem that, sometimes,just sometimes, they still call themselves "deaconesses" and that just make me go crazy because i don't want another perfect rank in the Church to be corrupted.
Thanks Mina and Ophadece.
I am glad you clarified things up for me and relieved me of my worries. I am sticking to my point nonetheless, and I hope young male deacons don't rest on their laurels and be dependent on girls. They have to learn hymns to lead on - it is unacceptable for deacons to be led on by others (although that happens every so often - but not regularly of course; especially when they ask for Arabic hymns ;)).
Dear Mina,
I am so glad that we are on the same wavelength, although you disagreed slightly when I posted my opinion in a similar thread before. Thanks man for your nice words and your support.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Dear Mina,
I am so glad that we are on the same wavelength, although you disagreed slightly when I posted my opinion in a similar thread before. Thanks man for your nice words and your support.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
i guess i tend to consider reality a little more not lose much people in arguments.