I'm dying to know what Odsah means. Why do you have to say words that only you and a few elite understand them? Remember, most of us here are still learning english.
odsoh means "his reverence" odsak is "your reverence"
I'm dying to know what Odsah means. Why do you have to say words that only you and a few elite understand them? Remember, most of us here are still learning english.
odsoh means "his reverence" odsak is "your reverence"
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110729#msg110729 date=1266368135] [quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8833.msg110723#msg110723 date=1266358317] It feels rather rude that you have quoted my comments and then posted the very opposite as if I said the opposite to what I actually did.
Let's think about this for a second. You said that kissing a priest's hand is a cultural thing. It is not a spiritual tradition, but apparently (FOR YOU!) there could be some spiritual value in doing it. There could be some spiritual value in watching the sun rise also. But at the end of the day, if its not compulsory in our Church, then we are not obliged to do it.
As I have said several times, if you do not want to kiss a priest's hand then don't. But don't dismiss the tradition of the Church just because it is not something you can accept.
WHere did I say I cannot accept it. I said that many people ask me why they HAVE TO kiss a priest's hand. I cannot tell them that it is because he holds the body of Christ that we kiss his hand because our mouths equally eat the Body of Christ.
It does have great value for most here, certainly for me.
Oh.. how interesting. What value does it have in having your hands kissed? Please tell us so we can appreciate this more, and perhaps making the effort to kiss the hands of priests.
Please tell us.
When someone kisses your hand, how do you like it done? What is it about having your hands kissed that makes it a "great value" for you? I'd love to know.
Lots of love and kisses,
CO
CertifiedOrthodox, I don't understand what's up with your rude tone to Fr. Peter. The man has done nothing but humbly answer your questions, yet you are never satisfied. Please don't take this as a judgment, but the replies to your posts never seem to be good enough for you. Unless they are in agreement with your original thoughts on the matter, then the replies don't seem to be sufficient. I don't mean to be picking on you specifically, but please keep in mind that there are young people on this site, and there are people from other denominations that visit this site. We are ambassadors for Christ, and I think we should be doing our best as Coptic Orthodox Christians to act in such a way.
Just because you end your post with "lots of love and kisses," it doesn't make what you wrote any less disrespectful. How do you know Fr. Peter wasn't talking about his experience kissing other clergy's hands as having spiritual value? Forgive me, but I couldn't let this post slide due to my own weaknesses.
"What is it about kissing of your hands that you value"?
You need to read the question in your head without making any assumptions. I only added "love and kisses" because to lighten it up. But, IN NO WAY was i being rude intentionally.
Mina or someone else would have jumped on me if I had.
I'd really like to know how he values his hands being kissed?
Oh my goodness!! Yes, I see what you mean Mansour!
You mean that Fr Peter's comment was that he values kissing other priest's hands!!!!!
OK..
That's great.
What does he value about that? But I can assume how someone can value doing that. A lot of people have replied as to benefit of kissing a priest's hand.
But I see your point. I really thought he meant he values others kissing his hands and I just wanted to know what he likes about it? That's why I ended it with "love and kisses" - sort of a small joke at the end.
Forgive me if I did in fact misinterpret your post, as I certainly didn't mean to. But it makes me think, if I misinterpreted it, how many others did the same thing as myself?
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110780#msg110780 date=1266376160] Mina or someone else would have jumped on me if I had.
I'd really like to know how he values his hands being kissed?
wow....you sound like we have history together on the forum..... BUT ANYWAYS....CertifiedOrthodox.....let's just say that i have TOO MUCH respect to abouna Peter and what odsah have told me to do
Without being judgmental and with all honesty, I felt the same way too and I was about to comment on how certifiedorthodox replies to Fr Peter. This is probably the third post that I stopped reading because of the tone of voice. Fr Peter's opinion is absolutely right when it comes to this subject and you can ask any other priest not just him; it isnt about kissing the priest's hand but kissing God's hand that works through him. And again, without being judgmental or rude, I agree with Mansour89 about how you react when someone disagrees with your opinion. Please pray for my weakness
[quote author=I am all yours Lord link=topic=8833.msg110792#msg110792 date=1266388069] Without being judgmental and with all honesty, I felt the same way too and I was about to comment on how certifiedorthodox replies to Fr Peter. This is probably the third post that I stopped reading because of the tone of voice. Fr Peter's opinion is absolutely right when it comes to this subject and you can ask any other priest not just him; it isnt about kissing the priest's hand but kissing God's hand that works through him. And again, without being judgmental or rude, I agree with Mansour89 about how you react when someone disagrees with your opinion. Please pray for my weakness
people....what's the big deal with being "judgmental".....with judgment and discernment we choose what to do, what to think and HOW WE TALK......be judgmental just don't be condemning.
CertifiedOrthodox, I would really encourage you to talk through your negative feelings towards priests with your own FOC. I am not sure if you are married, but your husband should also know if you have been mistreated by priests and/or a bishop. Your negative experiences affect the way you relate to any priest now and that is not helpful to you or others.
Strangely I had not even thought in terms of my own hand being kissed when I said that it was of value. I meant only that it was of great value when I kissed the hand of another. As I reflect on the way you have re-worded my post I have to say that I feel very humble when someone kisses my hand, and I feel a great sense of responsibility to preserve myself in holiness and obedience.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110784#msg110784 date=1266378969] [quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110780#msg110780 date=1266376160] Mina or someone else would have jumped on me if I had.
I'd really like to know how he values his hands being kissed?
wow....you sound like we have history together on the forum..... BUT ANYWAYS....CertifiedOrthodox.....let's just say that i have TOO MUCH respect to abouna Peter and what odsah have told me to do
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8833.msg110802#msg110802 date=1266394761] CertifiedOrthodox, I would really encourage you to talk through your negative feelings towards priests with your own FOC. I am not sure if you are married, but your husband should also know if you have been mistreated by priests and/or a bishop. Your negative experiences affect the way you relate to any priest now and that is not helpful to you or others.
Strangely I had not even thought in terms of my own hand being kissed when I said that it was of value. I meant only that it was of great value when I kissed the hand of another. As I reflect on the way you have re-worded my post I have to say that I feel very humble when someone kisses my hand, and I feel a great sense of responsibility to preserve myself in holiness and obedience.
Father Peter
Yes Fr. Peter,
I thought you meant that you valued your hand being kissed. Obviously that is not the case. But even if it was , asking you based on that assumption is not a bad thing. If the people gain from having your hands kissed, is there any benefit for the priest? or is it just a one-way relationship?
Concerning telling my future husband about what has happened to me by Bishops and Priests. Yes, I spoke with Sayedna Sarapion about it. Bishops protect their priests and priests tell you that what happened to me "should not have happened" - but there's no apology, no anything. Everyone just acts as if "if you cannot take and be quiet about it, you're not Coptic".
I don't hate priests. Really. I just don't think of you more than a man. That's good for you. It really is. If ever you do anything wrong, I'm sure you'd want people to see you the same way.
I understand completely the act of kissing the priest's hand but can someone please explain the part of bowing down in front of the bishop as a sign of respect? I thought we were only supposed to bow down to God and God alone.
I don't hate priests. Really. I just don't think of you more than a man. That's good for you. It really is. If ever you do anything wrong, I'm sure you'd want people to see you the same way.
I can't really agree with this at all. Indeed one of the great blessings for me when I became Orthodox was discovering the grace of the priesthood and the effect that this grace had on my growth. Of course I am sure that there are some bad priests, and even bad bishops, but I do not know who they are - God knows the hearts. But in my experience most priests have been a blessing to me.
I don't think of them as just a man, I don't think of myself now that I am a priest as just as man. That is not Orthodox Christianity. When a priest is ordained he receives a grace from God that he can use or can waste. But it is a grace, a gift from God. I do not feel myself to be the same as I was before I was ordained. I am different because I have received something from God. That does not mean I am infallible, it does not mean I must be in charge of everything and that everyone must treat me as someone important, it does not mean I am not a sinner. But it does mean that God has chosen me to serve him in a particular way and has given me the grace to do so.
If I have received a grace then I am more liable to divine judgement. If I have received the care of the Lord's flock, then I will be judged if any of them are lost through my actions. I must pray more, be more holy, be more vigilant over my life. It is a great burden to be a priest, yet one which can be a great joy. In our Orthodox Faith we do not believe that priests and bishops are just men, the Church is not a business with managers, it is a family with spiritual parents and spiritual children. I am a man with a responsibility and with a true grace to fulfill that responsibility, if I am faithful to my calling.
I don't hate priests. Really. I just don't think of you more than a man. That's good for you. It really is. If ever you do anything wrong, I'm sure you'd want people to see you the same way.
I can't really agree with this at all. Indeed one of the great blessings for me when I became Orthodox was discovering the grace of the priesthood and the effect that this grace had on my growth. Of course I am sure that there are some bad priests, and even bad bishops, but I do not know who they are - God knows the hearts. But in my experience most priests have been a blessing to me.
I don't think of them as just a man, I don't think of myself now that I am a priest as just as man. That is not Orthodox Christianity. When a priest is ordained he receives a grace from God that he can use or can waste. But it is a grace, a gift from God. I do not feel myself to be the same as I was before I was ordained. I am different because I have received something from God. That does not mean I am infallible, it does not mean I must be in charge of everything and that everyone must treat me as someone important, it does not mean I am not a sinner. But it does mean that God has chosen me to serve him in a particular way and has given me the grace to do so.
If I have received a grace then I am more liable to divine judgement. If I have received the care of the Lord's flock, then I will be judged if any of them are lost through my actions. I must pray more, be more holy, be more vigilant over my life. It is a great burden to be a priest, yet one which can be a great joy. In our Orthodox Faith we do not believe that priests and bishops are just men, the Church is not a business with managers, it is a family with spiritual parents and spiritual children. I am a man with a responsibility and with a true grace to fulfill that responsibility, if I am faithful to my calling.
Father Peter
I cannot agree with you. I had a meeting with a priest that did something I could I have sent him to prison for, and when apologising (or pitifully trying to apologize) he said: "I'm just a man and capable of sinning like anyone else".
You don't have to agree with me. I can't make you.
But our Orthodox Faith is very clear. Ordination is a sacrament. Just as baptism is not just having a wash, and the holy communion is not just sharing some food. So the grace of ordination is charged with a spiritual potential. It is not a promotion to a management position in a religious business.
It is neither here nor there that some priests are terrible sinners, and of course all priests are sinners, all baptised Christians are sinners. That does not diminish the grace.
You keep changing your point of view. One minute you say that no priest has apologised, now you are saying that he did apologise. One minute you are saying that a priest's opinion is just that of a man, now you are saying I must accept this opinion because a priest gave it. It is very confusing.
The Orthodox Faith is clear, the sacrament of ordination is a life-changing grace. It is not a matter which is liable to personal opinion.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8833.msg110813#msg110813 date=1266402559] You don't have to agree with me. I can't make you.
But our Orthodox Faith is very clear. Ordination is a sacrament. Just as baptism is not just having a wash, and the holy communion is not just sharing some food. So the grace of ordination is charged with a spiritual potential. It is not a promotion to a management position in a religious business.
OK.
It is neither here nor there that some priests are terrible sinners, and of course all priests are sinners, all baptised Christians are sinners. That does not diminish the grace.
No it doesn't. I agree.
You keep changing your point of view. One minute you say that no priest has apologised, now you are saying that he did apologise. One minute you are saying that a priest's opinion is just that of a man, now you are saying I must accept this opinion because a priest gave it. It is very confusing.
1st of all, if someone steals from you (FOR EXAMPLE) a laptop, and they apologise for stealing it, and they don't give it back - its as if they haven't apologised. "Im sorry for stealing your laptop, but I'm not giving it back" - amounts to a justification of a sin, not an apology. Especially, if they go off and steal something else.
This case, unfortunately didn't involve theft, I could let that pass. It involved more than that.
Secondly, it involved a bishop, and they didnt even apologize either.
Does that make sense, or do you want me to open a thread and explain clearly what happened?
The Orthodox Faith is clear, the sacrament of ordination is a life-changing grace. It is not a matter which is liable to personal opinion.
[quote author=servantofGod30 link=topic=8833.msg110810#msg110810 date=1266399073] I understand completely the act of kissing the priest's hand but can someone please explain the part of bowing down in front of the bishop as a sign of respect? I thought we were only supposed to bow down to God and God alone.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8833.msg110811#msg110811 date=1266399817] If I have received a grace then I am more liable to divine judgement.
What is meant by Divine Judgement? Are you saying you will be judged (you, or any priest/bishop) will be judged differently than us? So, a priest's sin is not treated the same as someone else's?
If I have received the care of the Lord's flock, then I will be judged if any of them are lost through my actions.
Let's talk about that. What happens to you?
I get the feeling that CERTAIN priests can do whatever they want. Say sorry (Say it! not even mean it) and then they are forgiven, leaving a trail of destruction behind them.
Let's say your personal actions literally kill someone. What happens to you?
I must pray more, be more holy, be more vigilant over my life. It is a great burden to be a priest, yet one which can be a great joy. In our Orthodox Faith we do not believe that priests and bishops are just men, the Church is not a business with managers, it is a family with spiritual parents and spiritual children. I am a man with a responsibility and with a true grace to fulfill that responsibility, if I am faithful to my calling.
I'm glad to see someone still cares about their flock.
[quote author=SuperMAN(BAM) link=topic=8833.msg110817#msg110817 date=1266407393] CO, in other posts you said you are from London visiting NY...
then now you said you talked to H.G. anba Sarapion... and this involves one of "his" priests... and H.G. is Bishop of California!
CO, with all due respect your stories are not consistent at all, maybe you can clarify?!
SuperbamWham,
If I told you I travelled to Spain on vacation that would really confuse you - wouldn't it?
Would it confuse you also if I said I'm not even British?
You seem someone really easily confused. No, Anba Serapion, for your information turned out to be quite just by the way, but did nothing. The impression I got is that a bishop (any bishop) will try to protect his priests - regardless of what.
But he wasn't a priest "under him". He (the bishop) just ended up getting involved.
But it is a big story SuperWhamMan - and I don't wish to bore u with the gory details.
It is not important where I am RIGHt now, or where I was a few months ago. What concerns me is what happens to a priest / bishop if they make anyone falter.
CertifiedOrthodox, you do not seem able to forgive those who did whatever happened to you. This comes out very strongly in all your posts.
If you are unable to forgive then you will never be able to move on and your spiritual life will be diminished. Indeed we are warned that when we do not forgive we will not be forgiven.
I do not doubt the seriousness of whatever it was that happened to you, But what matters is that you forgive and move on. God will deal with whatever happened in his own way and at his own time.
Of course a priest's sin is not treated the same as another's. This is surely obvious. Yet you take the comment as yet another proof that you are right about condemning all priests and bishops. You really do need to ask God to grant you the grace to forgive - and I say this here because I have no idea who you are or where you are, and your own condemnations are also made here.
When we condemn others we prevent God working in our own hearts. When we forgive others we allow God to enter our hearts and heal us. You are certainly not the only person to have been hurt by someone who should have protected us. But the way to deal with such hurt is not to blame everyone but to ask God for grace.
You will probably be angry about this post as well, but I have to say it. In fact what matters is entirely where you are, and what a bishop or priest has done does not matter so much in relation to your own salvation. We can only affect the state of our own hearts. The rest is best left to God.
That people are going to be judged differently or on a different standard is clear from the Gospels.
Consider that because Sidon and Tyre had received a "prophet" greater than Jonah, they have a stricter judgment- Matthew 12:41 "The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here"
Another verse that is much more direct: James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
Hope everything is well with you man. I can clearly see that you are hurting :( . Take care.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8833.msg110820#msg110820 date=1266408750] CertifiedOrthodox, you do not seem able to forgive those who did whatever happened to you. This comes out very strongly in all your posts.
I want justice. And God doesn't look as if he's going to give me any. When there's justice, there's closure.
I don't have that.
If you are unable to forgive then you will never be able to move on and your spiritual life will be diminished. Indeed we are warned that when we do not forgive we will not be forgiven.
I want justice. Its that simple. Yet what the Church tells us is: Oh! You want justice? But you are a sinner also. Fine. I want justice. These people literally got away with murder and being treated like saints. All this talk about forgiveness just make my blood boil.
If someone took your son, and raped him, would you just turn the other cheek!? Why don't you forgive? Wouldn't you want to at least get a baseball bat and take a few practice swings on him?
I do not doubt the seriousness of whatever it was that happened to you, But what matters is that you forgive and move on. God will deal with whatever happened in his own way and at his own time.
If they die, death is too good for them. They've escaped all responsibility. I want justice. You cannot talk to me about forgiveness without there 1st being some kind of justice.
Of course a priest's sin is not treated the same as another's. This is surely obvious. Yet you take the comment as yet another proof that you are right about condemning all priests and bishops. You really do need to ask God to grant you the grace to forgive - and I say this here because I have no idea who you are or where you are, and your own condemnations are also made here.
I'm not saying all priests are bad. My opinion is simple: a priest shouldn't be raised at a higher level if he's not prepared to take responsibility for his actions. We raise priests so much that it makes it hard for them to not only apologize, but to realise that they are human also.
When we condemn others we prevent God working in our own hearts.
I want justice. I didnt say I wanted them to go to hell...although the thought did pass through my head. yes.
When we forgive others we allow God to enter our hearts and heal us. You are certainly not the only person to have been hurt by someone who should have protected us. But the way to deal with such hurt is not to blame everyone but to ask God for grace.
And this attitude lets others get away with murder - especially priests. Look, I'm all for forgiveness, but I want justice. What's so bad about that!!!
You will probably be angry about this post as well, but I have to say it. In fact what matters is entirely where you are, and what a bishop or priest has done does not matter so much in relation to your own salvation. We can only affect the state of our own hearts. The rest is best left to God.
Fr. Peter, I'm not angry about this post. lol I just want justice.
I feel that my human rights are violated because people like you tell me to forgive than seeking justice, and I foolishly listened and now I regret not doing more to defend my human rights.
Be careful how you judge me: I would hate God to put you in any temptation/tribulation so you can know what I've gone through.
I think you like argue for the sake of argument... if that problem was really bothering you, the least you would've done is maybe have spoken to fr. Peter privately about it, but for some reason you like the commotion you are causing, I feel like you are almost feeding on the more posts you get... ready to attack anyone who calls you out on your stories... with all honesty I think its funny. I don't want to make this "argument" personal, as I might get confused in the process... but the last thing I will say is don't argue for the sake of argument... don't seek the wrong kind of attention, in better terms!
[quote author=SuperMAN(BAM) link=topic=8833.msg110826#msg110826 date=1266410248] well "Certified" Orthodox, as you might think...
I think you like argue for the sake of argument... if that problem was really bothering you, the least you would've done is maybe have spoken to fr. Peter privately about it, but for some reason you like the commotion you are causing, I feel like you are almost feeding on the more posts you get... ready to attack anyone who calls you out on your stories... with all honesty I think its funny. I don't want to make this "argument" personal, as I might get confused in the process... but the last thing I will say is don't argue for the sake of argument... don't seek the wrong kind of attention, in better terms!
I did.. he didn't answer my PM. Same as any bishop. I get the impression he would prefer we kept this hush hush and just did nothing about it.
fine... write a long juicy letter, filled with everything in details... from names to actions... and we will send it to anba Bishoy, and to the pope... if nothing happens, than take the same letter and send it to the government officials of that area.... sounds like a good plan?!
[quote author=SuperMAN(BAM) link=topic=8833.msg110828#msg110828 date=1266410603] fine... write a long juicy letter, filled with everything in details... from names to actions... and we will send it to anba Bishoy, and to the pope... if nothing happens, than take the same letter and send it to the government officials of that area.... sounds like a good plan?!
That is the part that hurts the most. The Pope knew about this. He told the priest off. He sort of apologised to me... (The Pope that is!)
But so? my human rights were violated and I was taken advantage of. I want justice. When the Pope treats u this way, you sort of just say to yourself "Ok.. perhaps I should drop this..." but I'd rather not now. I regret thinking this way. I should have treated these clergy like normal citizens and had them sent to jail.
Comments
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110741#msg110741 date=1266369886]
Look,
I'm dying to know what Odsah means. Why do you have to say words that only you and a few elite understand them? Remember, most of us here are still learning english.
odsoh means "his reverence"
odsak is "your reverence"
I thought you are coptic?!!
me too.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110744#msg110744 date=1266370302]
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110741#msg110741 date=1266369886]
Look,
I'm dying to know what Odsah means. Why do you have to say words that only you and a few elite understand them? Remember, most of us here are still learning english.
odsoh means "his reverence"
odsak is "your reverence"
I thought you are coptic?!!
me too.
good to know!!
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8833.msg110723#msg110723 date=1266358317]
It feels rather rude that you have quoted my comments and then posted the very opposite as if I said the opposite to what I actually did.
Let's think about this for a second. You said that kissing a priest's hand is a cultural thing. It is not a spiritual tradition, but apparently (FOR YOU!) there could be some spiritual value in doing it. There could be some spiritual value in watching the sun rise also. But at the end of the day, if its not compulsory in our Church, then we are not obliged to do it. WHere did I say I cannot accept it. I said that many people ask me why they HAVE TO kiss a priest's hand. I cannot tell them that it is because he holds the body of Christ that we kiss his hand because our mouths equally eat the Body of Christ.
Oh.. how interesting. What value does it have in having your hands kissed? Please tell us so we can appreciate this more, and perhaps making the effort to kiss the hands of priests.
Please tell us.
When someone kisses your hand, how do you like it done? What is it about having your hands kissed that makes it a "great value" for you? I'd love to know.
Lots of love and kisses,
CO
CertifiedOrthodox, I don't understand what's up with your rude tone to Fr. Peter. The man has done nothing but humbly answer your questions, yet you are never satisfied. Please don't take this as a judgment, but the replies to your posts never seem to be good enough for you. Unless they are in agreement with your original thoughts on the matter, then the replies don't seem to be sufficient. I don't mean to be picking on you specifically, but please keep in mind that there are young people on this site, and there are people from other denominations that visit this site. We are ambassadors for Christ, and I think we should be doing our best as Coptic Orthodox Christians to act in such a way.
Just because you end your post with "lots of love and kisses," it doesn't make what you wrote any less disrespectful. How do you know Fr. Peter wasn't talking about his experience kissing other clergy's hands as having spiritual value? Forgive me, but I couldn't let this post slide due to my own weaknesses.
Pray for me,
Mansour89
Seriously, you've really mis-interpreted my post.
Let me re-phrase it.
"What is it about kissing of your hands that you value"?
You need to read the question in your head without making any assumptions. I only added "love and kisses" because to lighten it up. But, IN NO WAY was i being rude intentionally.
Mina or someone else would have jumped on me if I had.
I'd really like to know how he values his hands being kissed?
You mean that Fr Peter's comment was that he values kissing other priest's hands!!!!!
OK..
That's great.
What does he value about that? But I can assume how someone can value doing that. A lot of people have replied as to benefit of kissing a priest's hand.
But I see your point. I really thought he meant he values others kissing his hands and I just wanted to know what he likes about it? That's why I ended it with "love and kisses" - sort of a small joke at the end.
Sorry Fr Peter if i misunderstood your post.
Thanks for drawing my attention mansour.
Pray for my weaknesses,
Mansour89
Mina or someone else would have jumped on me if I had.
I'd really like to know how he values his hands being kissed?
wow....you sound like we have history together on the forum.....
BUT ANYWAYS....CertifiedOrthodox.....let's just say that i have TOO MUCH respect to abouna Peter and what odsah have told me to do
And again, without being judgmental or rude, I agree with Mansour89 about how you react when someone disagrees with your opinion.
Please pray for my weakness
Without being judgmental and with all honesty, I felt the same way too and I was about to comment on how certifiedorthodox replies to Fr Peter. This is probably the third post that I stopped reading because of the tone of voice. Fr Peter's opinion is absolutely right when it comes to this subject and you can ask any other priest not just him; it isnt about kissing the priest's hand but kissing God's hand that works through him.
And again, without being judgmental or rude, I agree with Mansour89 about how you react when someone disagrees with your opinion.
Please pray for my weakness
people....what's the big deal with being "judgmental".....with judgment and discernment we choose what to do, what to think and HOW WE TALK......be judgmental just don't be condemning.
Strangely I had not even thought in terms of my own hand being kissed when I said that it was of value. I meant only that it was of great value when I kissed the hand of another. As I reflect on the way you have re-worded my post I have to say that I feel very humble when someone kisses my hand, and I feel a great sense of responsibility to preserve myself in holiness and obedience.
Father Peter
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110780#msg110780 date=1266376160]
Mina or someone else would have jumped on me if I had.
I'd really like to know how he values his hands being kissed?
wow....you sound like we have history together on the forum.....
BUT ANYWAYS....CertifiedOrthodox.....let's just say that i have TOO MUCH respect to abouna Peter and what odsah have told me to do
lol. But I know you.
I'm sure I know you.
CertifiedOrthodox, I would really encourage you to talk through your negative feelings towards priests with your own FOC. I am not sure if you are married, but your husband should also know if you have been mistreated by priests and/or a bishop. Your negative experiences affect the way you relate to any priest now and that is not helpful to you or others.
Strangely I had not even thought in terms of my own hand being kissed when I said that it was of value. I meant only that it was of great value when I kissed the hand of another. As I reflect on the way you have re-worded my post I have to say that I feel very humble when someone kisses my hand, and I feel a great sense of responsibility to preserve myself in holiness and obedience.
Father Peter
Yes Fr. Peter,
I thought you meant that you valued your hand being kissed. Obviously that is not the case. But even if it was , asking you based on that assumption is not a bad thing. If the people gain from having your hands kissed, is there any benefit for the priest? or is it just a one-way relationship?
Concerning telling my future husband about what has happened to me by Bishops and Priests. Yes, I spoke with Sayedna Sarapion about it. Bishops protect their priests and priests tell you that what happened to me "should not have happened" - but there's no apology, no anything. Everyone just acts as if "if you cannot take and be quiet about it, you're not Coptic".
I don't hate priests. Really. I just don't think of you more than a man. That's good for you. It really is. If ever you do anything wrong, I'm sure you'd want people to see you the same way.
I don't think of them as just a man, I don't think of myself now that I am a priest as just as man. That is not Orthodox Christianity. When a priest is ordained he receives a grace from God that he can use or can waste. But it is a grace, a gift from God. I do not feel myself to be the same as I was before I was ordained. I am different because I have received something from God. That does not mean I am infallible, it does not mean I must be in charge of everything and that everyone must treat me as someone important, it does not mean I am not a sinner. But it does mean that God has chosen me to serve him in a particular way and has given me the grace to do so.
If I have received a grace then I am more liable to divine judgement. If I have received the care of the Lord's flock, then I will be judged if any of them are lost through my actions. I must pray more, be more holy, be more vigilant over my life. It is a great burden to be a priest, yet one which can be a great joy. In our Orthodox Faith we do not believe that priests and bishops are just men, the Church is not a business with managers, it is a family with spiritual parents and spiritual children. I am a man with a responsibility and with a true grace to fulfill that responsibility, if I am faithful to my calling.
Father Peter
I don't think of them as just a man, I don't think of myself now that I am a priest as just as man. That is not Orthodox Christianity. When a priest is ordained he receives a grace from God that he can use or can waste. But it is a grace, a gift from God. I do not feel myself to be the same as I was before I was ordained. I am different because I have received something from God. That does not mean I am infallible, it does not mean I must be in charge of everything and that everyone must treat me as someone important, it does not mean I am not a sinner. But it does mean that God has chosen me to serve him in a particular way and has given me the grace to do so.
If I have received a grace then I am more liable to divine judgement. If I have received the care of the Lord's flock, then I will be judged if any of them are lost through my actions. I must pray more, be more holy, be more vigilant over my life. It is a great burden to be a priest, yet one which can be a great joy. In our Orthodox Faith we do not believe that priests and bishops are just men, the Church is not a business with managers, it is a family with spiritual parents and spiritual children. I am a man with a responsibility and with a true grace to fulfill that responsibility, if I am faithful to my calling.
Father Peter
I cannot agree with you. I had a meeting with a priest that did something I could I have sent him to prison for, and when apologising (or pitifully trying to apologize) he said: "I'm just a man and capable of sinning like anyone else".
But our Orthodox Faith is very clear. Ordination is a sacrament. Just as baptism is not just having a wash, and the holy communion is not just sharing some food. So the grace of ordination is charged with a spiritual potential. It is not a promotion to a management position in a religious business.
It is neither here nor there that some priests are terrible sinners, and of course all priests are sinners, all baptised Christians are sinners. That does not diminish the grace.
You keep changing your point of view. One minute you say that no priest has apologised, now you are saying that he did apologise. One minute you are saying that a priest's opinion is just that of a man, now you are saying I must accept this opinion because a priest gave it. It is very confusing.
The Orthodox Faith is clear, the sacrament of ordination is a life-changing grace. It is not a matter which is liable to personal opinion.
Father Peter
You don't have to agree with me. I can't make you.
But our Orthodox Faith is very clear. Ordination is a sacrament. Just as baptism is not just having a wash, and the holy communion is not just sharing some food. So the grace of ordination is charged with a spiritual potential. It is not a promotion to a management position in a religious business.
OK. No it doesn't. I agree. 1st of all, if someone steals from you (FOR EXAMPLE) a laptop, and they apologise for stealing it, and they don't give it back - its as if they haven't apologised. "Im sorry for stealing your laptop, but I'm not giving it back" - amounts to a justification of a sin, not an apology. Especially, if they go off and steal something else.
This case, unfortunately didn't involve theft, I could let that pass. It involved more than that.
Secondly, it involved a bishop, and they didnt even apologize either.
Does that make sense, or do you want me to open a thread and explain clearly what happened? OK. Fine. I don't have a problem with that.
Thanks.
I understand completely the act of kissing the priest's hand but can someone please explain the part of bowing down in front of the bishop as a sign of respect? I thought we were only supposed to bow down to God and God alone.
I think that's for deacons. I'm not sure though.
If I have received a grace then I am more liable to divine judgement.
What is meant by Divine Judgement? Are you saying you will be judged (you, or any priest/bishop) will be judged differently than us? So, a priest's sin is not treated the same as someone else's? Let's talk about that. What happens to you?
I get the feeling that CERTAIN priests can do whatever they want. Say sorry (Say it! not even mean it) and then they are forgiven, leaving a trail of destruction behind them.
Let's say your personal actions literally kill someone. What happens to you? I'm glad to see someone still cares about their flock.
then now you said you talked to H.G. anba Sarapion... and this involves one of "his" priests... and H.G. is Bishop of California!
CO, with all due respect your stories are not consistent at all, maybe you can clarify?!
CO, in other posts you said you are from London visiting NY...
then now you said you talked to H.G. anba Sarapion... and this involves one of "his" priests... and H.G. is Bishop of California!
CO, with all due respect your stories are not consistent at all, maybe you can clarify?!
SuperbamWham,
If I told you I travelled to Spain on vacation that would really confuse you - wouldn't it?
Would it confuse you also if I said I'm not even British?
You seem someone really easily confused. No, Anba Serapion, for your information turned out to be quite just by the way, but did nothing. The impression I got is that a bishop (any bishop) will try to protect his priests - regardless of what.
But he wasn't a priest "under him". He (the bishop) just ended up getting involved.
But it is a big story SuperWhamMan - and I don't wish to bore u with the gory details.
It is not important where I am RIGHt now, or where I was a few months ago. What concerns me is what happens to a priest / bishop if they make anyone falter.
If you are unable to forgive then you will never be able to move on and your spiritual life will be diminished. Indeed we are warned that when we do not forgive we will not be forgiven.
I do not doubt the seriousness of whatever it was that happened to you, But what matters is that you forgive and move on. God will deal with whatever happened in his own way and at his own time.
Of course a priest's sin is not treated the same as another's. This is surely obvious. Yet you take the comment as yet another proof that you are right about condemning all priests and bishops. You really do need to ask God to grant you the grace to forgive - and I say this here because I have no idea who you are or where you are, and your own condemnations are also made here.
When we condemn others we prevent God working in our own hearts. When we forgive others we allow God to enter our hearts and heal us. You are certainly not the only person to have been hurt by someone who should have protected us. But the way to deal with such hurt is not to blame everyone but to ask God for grace.
You will probably be angry about this post as well, but I have to say it. In fact what matters is entirely where you are, and what a bishop or priest has done does not matter so much in relation to your own salvation. We can only affect the state of our own hearts. The rest is best left to God.
Father Peter
That people are going to be judged differently or on a different standard is clear from the Gospels.
Consider that because Sidon and Tyre had received a "prophet" greater than Jonah, they have a stricter judgment- Matthew 12:41 "The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here"
Another verse that is much more direct:
James 3:1
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
Hope everything is well with you man. I can clearly see that you are hurting :( . Take care.
CertifiedOrthodox, you do not seem able to forgive those who did whatever happened to you. This comes out very strongly in all your posts.
I want justice. And God doesn't look as if he's going to give me any.
When there's justice, there's closure.
I don't have that.
I want justice. Its that simple.
Yet what the Church tells us is: Oh! You want justice? But you are a sinner also. Fine. I want justice. These people literally got away with murder and being treated like saints. All this talk about forgiveness just make my blood boil.
If someone took your son, and raped him, would you just turn the other cheek!? Why don't you forgive? Wouldn't you want to at least get a baseball bat and take a few practice swings on him? If they die, death is too good for them. They've escaped all responsibility. I want justice. You cannot talk to me about forgiveness without there 1st being some kind of justice. I'm not saying all priests are bad. My opinion is simple: a priest shouldn't be raised at a higher level if he's not prepared to take responsibility for his actions. We raise priests so much that it makes it hard for them to not only apologize, but to realise that they are human also. I want justice. I didnt say I wanted them to go to hell...although the thought did pass through my head. yes. And this attitude lets others get away with murder - especially priests. Look, I'm all for forgiveness, but I want justice. What's so bad about that!!! Fr. Peter, I'm not angry about this post. lol
I just want justice.
I feel that my human rights are violated because people like you tell me to forgive than seeking justice, and I foolishly listened and now I regret not doing more to defend my human rights.
Be careful how you judge me: I would hate God to put you in any temptation/tribulation so you can know what I've gone through.
I think you like argue for the sake of argument... if that problem was really bothering you, the least you would've done is maybe have spoken to fr. Peter privately about it, but for some reason you like the commotion you are causing, I feel like you are almost feeding on the more posts you get... ready to attack anyone who calls you out on your stories... with all honesty I think its funny. I don't want to make this "argument" personal, as I might get confused in the process... but the last thing I will say is don't argue for the sake of argument... don't seek the wrong kind of attention, in better terms!
well "Certified" Orthodox, as you might think...
I think you like argue for the sake of argument... if that problem was really bothering you, the least you would've done is maybe have spoken to fr. Peter privately about it, but for some reason you like the commotion you are causing, I feel like you are almost feeding on the more posts you get... ready to attack anyone who calls you out on your stories... with all honesty I think its funny. I don't want to make this "argument" personal, as I might get confused in the process... but the last thing I will say is don't argue for the sake of argument... don't seek the wrong kind of attention, in better terms!
I did.. he didn't answer my PM.
Same as any bishop. I get the impression he would prefer we kept this hush hush and just did nothing about it.
fine... write a long juicy letter, filled with everything in details... from names to actions... and we will send it to anba Bishoy, and to the pope... if nothing happens, than take the same letter and send it to the government officials of that area.... sounds like a good plan?!
That is the part that hurts the most. The Pope knew about this. He told the priest off. He sort of apologised to me... (The Pope that is!)
But so? my human rights were violated and I was taken advantage of. I want justice. When the Pope treats u this way, you sort of just say to yourself "Ok.. perhaps I should drop this..." but I'd rather not now. I regret thinking this way. I should have treated these clergy like normal citizens and had them sent to jail.
And then I would forgive them.