Why is asking for justice or seeking justice somehow a sinful act for you!?
If we had justice there would be peace. When you are taken advantage of, and silenced by people who have power, it is the most hurtful thing ever.
And then to add insult to injury, we are told to forgive and that we are not perfect.
Imagine if someone comes to you & kills your brother. And you want justice. How would you feel when a priest tells you : "Ahh.. but you are also a sinner" Would a priest tell me this if the criminal was not another priest/bishop??
I doubt it!
Is it me, or isn't that the most INFURIATING thing to hear???
We are all sinners, even the person judging the criminal and the person closing the light at night in his cell... so what? Where is justice!?
You'd think we learned something from the Catholic priests scandals and the Orthodox Church of America scandal.
Anyway, CO, God is interested in justice. Look at stories such as Sussana and the two Elders or Judges; the story of King David, and many other kings of Israel.
I assure you man, whatever happens in secret will be declared in the rooftops. God hears your cry for justice- it will come- not for your sake, but for God, because the person that was victimized was Jesus. It was His name that was profaned. God will take that seriously.
Yes, to whom more is given, more is expected.
Anyway, I guess, try to be compassionate as you would to others who wronged you. Don't judge others in hypocrisy. And remember what we pray: "Forgive us our trespasses as we have forgiven those who trespass against us."
We can not hide behind a cloak or title in the eternal court room, if not the human court.
[quote author=clay link=topic=8833.msg110831#msg110831 date=1266411280] You'd think we learned something from the Catholic priests scandals and the Orthodox Church of America scandal.
What they (the RC) did wrong was they protected their priests rather than bringing them to justice. All this backfired in their faces. The people were not happy with that. It would have been better for the priest to have been defrocked privately rather than this public humiliation.
Anyway, CO, God is interested in justice. Look at stories such as Sussana and the two Elders or Judges; the story of King David, and many other kings of Israel.
Thanks Clay.
I assure you man, whatever happens in secret will be declared in the rooftops. God hears your cry for justice- it will come- not for your sake, but for God, because the person that was victimized was Jesus. It was His name that was profaned. God will take that seriously.
Thanks Clay.
Yes, to whom more is given, more is expected.
Thanks Clay.
Anyway, I guess, try to be compassionate as you would to others who wronged you. Don't judge others in hypocrisy. And remember what we pray: "Forgive us our trespasses as we have forgiven those who trespass against us."
OK. Thanks Clay.
We can not hide behind a cloak or title in the eternal court room, if not the human court.
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110808#msg110808 date=1266397882] [quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110784#msg110784 date=1266378969] [quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110780#msg110780 date=1266376160] Mina or someone else would have jumped on me if I had. I'd really like to know how he values his hands being kissed?
wow....you sound like we have history together on the forum..... BUT ANYWAYS....CertifiedOrthodox.....let's just say that i have TOO MUCH respect to abouna Peter and what odsah have told me to do
lol. But I know you. I'm sure I know you.
lovely......many people do.....Know yourself before you search about others from words that are typed on a publish Christian forum.
now let me go read these 2 fullllll pages
And CO, you are in your early 20s, your a female, AND were involved in a problem with the Pope and a huge problem with Anba Serapion and many other priest.....AWESOME........Really, you don't find that around here where there are tons of probles with clergy members....
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110838#msg110838 date=1266423803] [quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110808#msg110808 date=1266397882] [quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110784#msg110784 date=1266378969] [quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110780#msg110780 date=1266376160] Mina or someone else would have jumped on me if I had. I'd really like to know how he values his hands being kissed?
wow....you sound like we have history together on the forum..... BUT ANYWAYS....CertifiedOrthodox.....let's just say that i have TOO MUCH respect to abouna Peter and what odsah have told me to do
lol. But I know you. I'm sure I know you.
lovely......many people do.....Know yourself before you search about others from words that are typed on a publish Christian forum.
now let we go read these 2 fullllll pages
Maybe its someone else. Someone told me that I should see a guy called Mina for the tasbeha times. Perhaps its another mina?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110838#msg110838 date=1266423803] And CO, you are in your early 20s, your a female, AND were involved in a problem with the Pope and a huge problem with Anba Serapion and many other priest.....AWESOME........Really, you don't find that around here where there are tons of probles with clergy members....
Hey, Anba Serapion didnt do anything wrong. I ended up seeing the Pope about it, who sort of felt bad for me. He shouted at the priest in question. I give him that much.
You'll prob. think this is a small problem, but I feel that I was taken advantage of.
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110840#msg110840 date=1266424592] [quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110838#msg110838 date=1266423803] And CO, you are in your early 20s, your a female, AND were involved in a problem with the Pope and a huge problem with Anba Serapion and many other priest.....AWESOME........Really, you don't find that around here where there are tons of probles with clergy members....
Hey, Anba Serapion didnt do anything wrong. I ended up seeing the Pope about it, who sort of felt bad for me. He shouted at the priest in question. I give him that much.
You'll prob. think this is a small problem, but I feel that I was taken advantage of.
actually, i don't think that at all. I mean this problem WAS BIG enough to get to the Pope.
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110839#msg110839 date=1266424374] Maybe its someone else. Someone told me that I should see a guy called Mina for the tasbeha times. Perhaps its another mina?
it would help if you can provide a last name for that person....maybe pm his phone number to get to him for you!!!!
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110842#msg110842 date=1266424968] [quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110840#msg110840 date=1266424592] [quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110838#msg110838 date=1266423803] And CO, you are in your early 20s, your a female, AND were involved in a problem with the Pope and a huge problem with Anba Serapion and many other priest.....AWESOME........Really, you don't find that around here where there are tons of probles with clergy members....
Hey, Anba Serapion didnt do anything wrong. I ended up seeing the Pope about it, who sort of felt bad for me. He shouted at the priest in question. I give him that much.
You'll prob. think this is a small problem, but I feel that I was taken advantage of.
actually, i don't think that at all. I mean this problem WAS BIG enough to get to the Pope.
Yeah. That's true. But it wasn't all about "me".. i just ended up in the middle of it.
It would help if I could give you the last name of which person?
Do we want God to be just with us? If He treated us as we deserve then we would be beyond hope. But the fact is that we are forgiven by God, and we treat Him much more badly than anyone could treat us. When he hung on the cross it was for my sins, and it was for your sins. Did he deserve that? Was it fair on Him? Why did He not insist on treating us as we deserved?
Why do you want justice? What will it change in terms of you seeking forgiveness from God for your own sins - which is the main thing we should be concerned about.
This is not to diminish anything that might happen to us. But most of us suffer indignities, injustices, bad treatment from others. Yet we are taught not to allow these things to cast us down.
1 Peter 2:19-25 For it is a fine thing if, when moved by your conscience to please God, you suffer patiently when wronged. (20) What credit is it if you sin and patiently receive a beating for it? But if you suffer for doing good and take it patiently, you have God's approval. (21) This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in his steps. (22) "He never committed a sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." (23) When he was insulted, he did not retaliate. When he suffered, he did not threaten but made it his habit to commit the matter to the one who judges fairly. (24) He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to those sins and live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. (25) For you were like sheep that kept going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8833.msg110855#msg110855 date=1266440328] Why do you want justice?
Because it soothes my soul
Do we want God to be just with us?
Yes. and He has!
If He treated us as we deserve then we would be beyond hope. But the fact is that we are forgiven by God, and we treat Him much more badly than anyone could treat us. When he hung on the cross it was for my sins, and it was for your sins. Did he deserve that? Was it fair on Him? Why did He not insist on treating us as we deserved?
Fr. This is a dangerous game. As you are judging me in my need to seek justice (which is COMPLETELY LAWFUL), Do you not fear God who can also treat you with the same measure you are treating me??
So, are you telling me that if someone killed someone SO BELOVED to you, you wouldn't seek that he faces trial for that? You wouldn't bother??
So why are the Copts around the world seeking justice over Nag Hammadi. Why don't they just let muslims kill them!? After all, its the IDEAL situation to show love. Isn't it!?
Why do you want justice? What will it change in terms of you seeking forgiveness from God for your own sins - which is the main thing we should be concerned about.
It will mean that someone will face up to their actions. No matter us all being sinners, we shouldn't be negligent towards one another. We have a responsibility for our actions, and part of that responsibility is to shoulder the choices we make in life.
You do not seek justice. THat's fine for you. Seeking justice for me is within my rights as a European, as an overseas student in the USA, and as a Human Being under international law.
I have rights, and they were violated.
And it is infuriating to be told NOT to seek justice by the very people I'm seeking justice from!
This is not to diminish anything that might happen to us. But most of us suffer indignities, injustices, bad treatment from others. Yet we are taught not to allow these things to cast us down.
Some things are So drastic, so severe that you need to see justice.
1 Peter 2:19-25 For it is a fine thing if, when moved by your conscience to please God, you suffer patiently when wronged. (20) What credit is it if you sin and patiently receive a beating for it? But if you suffer for doing good and take it patiently, you have God's approval. (21) This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in his steps. (22) "He never committed a sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." (23) When he was insulted, he did not retaliate. When he suffered, he did not threaten but made it his habit to commit the matter to the one who judges fairly. (24) He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to those sins and live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. (25) For you were like sheep that kept going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Christ's suffering was for our sins. My suffering is for someone's irresponsibilty, carelessness and lawlessness.
Look, that's the end of this discussion. I'm not asking for anything more than what is due to me. Father Peter
But when we insist on justice we are not asking for what is due to us.
If we received from God what is due to us then we would be in trouble.
You are free to seek justice in the courts if you wish. I have no idea what your issue is, nor with which priests or bishops. Since I have no idea who you are or where you live, I can have no personal involvement in this unknown incident involving unknown people. But even if you had recourse to the courts it is a matter of experience over the centuries and millenia that this would not suddenly allow you to forgive, and without being able to give forgiveness you will not be able to grow spiritually.
If you remember, the parents of those killed at Nag Hammadi DID forgive those who killed their children. I can think of no greater exercise and example of forgiveness.
Greetings in Our Lord, who continues to strengthen us in all of our struggles that we pass through daily, seeking to do His will and finding Him freely awaiting our requests. I am a bit reserved in joining this particular conversation, as I feel that I have little to add from my own thoughts, but I pray that perhaps the words in this message will find you well and willing to view things in a slightly different light.
CertifiedOrthodox, I understand the struggle you face, though not aware of what the specific accusation is. We all have an inherent tendency as sons and daughters of Adam to want to react very strongly to things that we consider to be wrongdoings acted against us. We feel hurt that someone would ever consider doing any sort of negative act towards us, and understandably so. In a world in which justice and revenge is sought after several times on a daily basis, we are quickly absorbed into this mentality, making it our own since we were but children in the world. But I ask you, do we consider ourselves to be of this world?
Allow me to be a bit facetious in my example... I hope that it sheds light on all of our eyes, as we find ourselves often in a state of blindness or, in what is often the best case, dimmed sight. Let us say that I am standing outside of my Church, conversing with my fellow brethren in Christ, and another congregation member comes up to me and strikes me in the face. Do I remember the words of Christ to turn the other cheek in obedience to Christ's words, or do I think to myself... "I will let him strike me again, so that my case is strengthened when I take this in front of a judge. Perhaps people didn't see him strike me the first time, but this will certainly get their attention and I will have them as witnesses for my case." I understand that this appears to be a very extreme example, and perhaps ridiculous in some sorts, but it may be that it takes an extreme example so that we may learn more readily.
In Matthew 18:15, it states the following: "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother." Do we make this effort? I feel that, often times, we are quick to run to tell our faults to others, drawing more attention to a situation that may have been more appropriately ameliorated if we followed the words of the Word.
In James 5:19-20: "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." What if we were to view the stumblings of our fellow brethren as opportunities to bring them back to the faith, to restore their faith in God, not only in what we naturally think of as belief but in practice as well. Do we wish to save the souls of our brethren?
It is my opinion that much of the dealings that we have between one another is rooted more in ourselves rather than in the other. When we are angered with someone, do we reprimand them out of anger, wishing that they receive their just desserts, or do we speak to them out of love? Are our actions rooted in love? Should not all of our actions be rooted in love?
I am not discounting your feelings, nor am I saying that there should be no justice, but I ask that, in this time of the Great Lent, we take a deep look into ourselves, our hearts, our minds, our souls, and our spirits, and seek the root of our actions. If the source of our thoughts, the source of our feelings, and the source of our actions is our own selves, then we are too strongly involved with our own selves. A man who relies only on himself will fall every time. If we find, though, that our source is God, be strengthened in your faith, knowing that you progress towards God, sometimes in times of ease and sometimes in times of struggle.
I ask that we put ourselves aside for just a moment, perhaps as we read this message, and truly ask if we have God as the source of our actions and thoughts.
May we all seek the love of God both within our own selves and the actions that we serve amongst our fellow sojourners in this world, desiring to become firmly rooted in our faith, with the strength of the Father, the humility of the Son, and the grace of the Holy Spirit guiding us in our lives,
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8833.msg110860#msg110860 date=1266442002] But when we insist on justice we are not asking for what is due to us.
If we received from God what is due to us then we would be in trouble.
You are free to seek justice in the courts if you wish. I have no idea what your issue is, nor with which priests or bishops. Since I have no idea who you are or where you live, I can have no personal involvement in this unknown incident involving unknown people. But even if you had recourse to the courts it is a matter of experience over the centuries and millenia that this would not suddenly allow you to forgive, and without being able to give forgiveness you will not be able to grow spiritually.
If you remember, the parents of those killed at Nag Hammadi DID forgive those who killed their children. I can think of no greater exercise and example of forgiveness.
Father Peter
Free those that killed their children in Nag Hammadi, and reward them openly. Let nothing bad happen to them. And then let me know whether the parents still forgive.
I would ask that you do not speak disrespectfully of the parents of those whose children were martyred at Nag Hammadi.
They HAVE forgiven those who took away their children's lives, and I can see no evidence that their act of forgiveness was contingent on the murderers being captured.
If you feel that you must take the matter which has disturbed you to court then do so. You live in a free country. If you cannot forgive then you will not want to listen to what anyone here says. So you are free to do what you think you must. But it is not helpful to you or this forum to keep saying over and over that you have been denied justice. If you seek justice for yourself above all else then write to His Holiness the Pope and ask that he do something more than he has done.
Again, none of us know you, or what has caused you so much pain, so we are not judging the matter or you. But you are clearly very upset and hurt and this affects your view of the whole of the Coptic Orthodox Church. I would wish that you had a FOC with whom you can discuss all of this, it is not entirely appropriate that it keep spilling out onto a semi-public forum.
I am not sure that anyone here can say anything that will fundamentally help you, since in the end the beginning of your healing lies with you and with the desire to forgive those that have hurt you, even while wishing justice be done.
I am not sure that anyone here can say anything that will fundamentally help you, since in the end the beginning of your healing lies with you and with the desire to forgive those that have hurt you, even while wishing justice be done.
God bless you
Father Peter
Clay did an excellent job until you responded.
Just stop. Khallas. I'm no longer interested in hearing what you have to say concerning this topic. You had the chance to respond to my PM and you chose not to, and rather than just let me be, you insist to lecture me on what I should/should not do.
And you were not even interested in responding to my PM's!!!
Why say this? I have replied to many of your PMs. But I am not your FOC, and don't even know who you are or where you are, therefore I cannot even have a personal relationship with you. Presently I am working 12-15 hour days and cannot physically reply to every message, email or PM I receive. I spend too much time on Tasbeha as it is. :-) But I feel a responsibility to the folk here.
I think that if you add up all of the responses to messages here on Tasbeha you would find that actually most people are spending most of their time trying to post messages in answer to your questions and problems. You are hardly being ignored, by me or by anyone.
Looking back in my Inbox I see that the last PM from you was on the 13th and was about the Atonement, and nothing to do with this topic. The one before that was on the 8th and concerned the issue you have raised several times here already, therefore I answered it here. So I am not sure which PM you consider I have ignored. I cannot be available 24/7 to answer PMs for just one person, there are others here also I have not yet answered, God only provides 24 hours in the day.
And you were not even interested in responding to my PM's!!!
Why say this? I have replied to many of your PMs. But I am not your FOC, and don't even know who you are or where you are, therefore I cannot even have a personal relationship with you. Presently I am working 12-15 hour days and cannot physically reply to every message, email or PM I receive. I spend too much time on Tasbeha as it is. :-) But I feel a responsibility to the folk here.
I think that if you add up all of the responses to messages here on Tasbeha you would find that actually most people are spending most of their time trying to post messages in answer to your questions and problems. You are hardly being ignored, by me or by anyone.
Father Peter
I never force anyone to respond. They just do!? Maybe its because I choose the most contentious issues to talk about??
Not sure. But I love those people from Nag Hammadi who have lost loved ones. You have no right to tell me I'm disrespecting them. I was crying all day just watching the requiem mass.
But from suffering similar fate as them, I can tell you it WILL BE INSULT TO INJURY if they free the murderers and reward them publicly. This will hurt like hell. I know.. I've BEEN THERE!!!
Speaking of forgiveness... you yourself made this very inspiring post just a couple of weeks ago.
According to the interviews shown on TV of the families of the victims, they all have forgiven the murderers.
If this isn't a miracle, nor a fruit of God's Holy Spirit, I don't know what is.
They all have said they remarkably feel comforted, and although sad, they have nothing against those who carried out this act of violence and terror.
Forgiveness is part of our raison d'etre as Christians. It says in the Bible that God's ways is foolishness to man - and I see that. It doesnt make sense why anyone would want to forgive; but you have to look at it this way:
Those who killed really need our prayers so they can repent, how will they know God unless through our actions? And our actions in which they are expected to know God is through us showing love, forgiveness, kindness and charity.
These are the tools we use to evangelise our faith.
What has led you to change your mind so radically over the course of two or three weeks?
Certified orthodox, this question may seem out of place, but did you have another username that you used on this website? The only reason I am asking is because we had another person who suffered the same problem.
Aside from that question, without condemning anyone, I feel that you want justice but you are afraid to seek it whether because of the consequences that might happen or you are not sure if thats what you really want. Discussing your "issue" on this forum for days and days will not bring you justice; it will grant you gratification to know that your point is well understood and not opposed by anyone. But like many said before, seek justice if you like. If any of you remember where in corinthians, but there is a passage about how believers should not seek judgment from non-believers against believers. Basically, unless its really extreme, then everything should be dealt with inside the church. Personally, I think that as humans we are very very limited compared to God. We have limited knowledge, understanding, power etc... So to seek justice and want to carry it on my own is rather not wise. The justice I might seek could be very harmful to me; when in fact God has planned the perfect justice for every wrong action that happens on earth. Therefore, if I seek justice and not want to forgive then I am basically telling God, I can handle this stay out of it. The righteous Joseph wouldnt have been this famous if he seeked justice on his own. When he was sold by his brothers, he could have easily said that he isnt a slave and it was very easy for him to prove that he is their brother. But he remained silent because he knew that God prepared the best outcome for him. So if Joseph hadnt stayed silent; no one would even know about him today.
Let us all pray that God may grant us a forgiving heart filled with love pray for me
With all due respect Certified, I don't understand why you are complaining on here? Do you think you will find justice on this forum? If so you are mistaken. Are you looking for sympathy or are you just trying to bash on Coptic priests? Either way you seem to have had a rough time, which I'm sorry you had to go through. But complaining on here and disrespecting Fr. Peter is not going to help you in anyway. This seems to be a private matter so keep it that way. I don't understand why you feel it appropriate to post this to the world. You have had/complained about this matter for a LONG time and in almost every post now you bring it up. Again, whatever happened to you I'm sorry for but you need to give it a rest. Nobody on here can truly help except through prayer or they really know you. So if its possible, leave your drama to the side and discuss things that are relevant to the topic. Forgive me
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet[d] and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’[e] 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”[f]
Comments
Why is asking for justice or seeking justice somehow a sinful act for you!?
If we had justice there would be peace. When you are taken advantage of, and silenced by people who have power, it is the most hurtful thing ever.
And then to add insult to injury, we are told to forgive and that we are not perfect.
Imagine if someone comes to you & kills your brother. And you want justice. How would you feel when a priest tells you : "Ahh.. but you are also a sinner"
Would a priest tell me this if the criminal was not another priest/bishop??
I doubt it!
Is it me, or isn't that the most INFURIATING thing to hear???
We are all sinners, even the person judging the criminal and the person closing the light at night in his cell... so what? Where is justice!?
Anyway, CO, God is interested in justice. Look at stories such as Sussana and the two Elders or Judges; the story of King David, and many other kings of Israel.
I assure you man, whatever happens in secret will be declared in the rooftops. God hears your cry for justice- it will come- not for your sake, but for God, because the person that was victimized was Jesus. It was His name that was profaned. God will take that seriously.
Yes, to whom more is given, more is expected.
Anyway, I guess, try to be compassionate as you would to others who wronged you. Don't judge others in hypocrisy. And remember what we pray: "Forgive us our trespasses as we have forgiven those who trespass against us."
We can not hide behind a cloak or title in the eternal court room, if not the human court.
You'd think we learned something from the Catholic priests scandals and the Orthodox Church of America scandal.
What they (the RC) did wrong was they protected their priests rather than bringing them to justice. All this backfired in their faces. The people were not happy with that.
It would have been better for the priest to have been defrocked privately rather than this public humiliation. Thanks Clay. Thanks Clay. Thanks Clay. OK. Thanks Clay. OK. Thanks Clay.
You post here, and then you post the same things to me in PMs. If you only posted in PMs I would reply only in PMs.
Father Peter
CertifiedOrthodox, I have replied to many of your PMs.
You post here, and then you post the same things to me in PMs. If you only posted in PMs I would reply only in PMs.
Father Peter
its ok. Don't worry about it. You're not my FoC anyway. This problem shouldn't concern you.
Thanks anyway for taking the time to explain to us about kissing the hands of priests.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110784#msg110784 date=1266378969]
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110780#msg110780 date=1266376160]
Mina or someone else would have jumped on me if I had.
I'd really like to know how he values his hands being kissed?
wow....you sound like we have history together on the forum.....
BUT ANYWAYS....CertifiedOrthodox.....let's just say that i have TOO MUCH respect to abouna Peter and what odsah have told me to do
lol. But I know you.
I'm sure I know you.
lovely......many people do.....Know yourself before you search about others from words that are typed on a publish Christian forum.
now let me go read these 2 fullllll pages
And CO, you are in your early 20s, your a female, AND were involved in a problem with the Pope and a huge problem with Anba Serapion and many other priest.....AWESOME........Really, you don't find that around here where there are tons of probles with clergy members....
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110808#msg110808 date=1266397882]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110784#msg110784 date=1266378969]
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110780#msg110780 date=1266376160]
Mina or someone else would have jumped on me if I had.
I'd really like to know how he values his hands being kissed?
wow....you sound like we have history together on the forum.....
BUT ANYWAYS....CertifiedOrthodox.....let's just say that i have TOO MUCH respect to abouna Peter and what odsah have told me to do
lol. But I know you.
I'm sure I know you.
lovely......many people do.....Know yourself before you search about others from words that are typed on a publish Christian forum.
now let we go read these 2 fullllll pages
Maybe its someone else. Someone told me that I should see a guy called Mina for the tasbeha times. Perhaps its another mina?
And CO, you are in your early 20s, your a female, AND were involved in a problem with the Pope and a huge problem with Anba Serapion and many other priest.....AWESOME........Really, you don't find that around here where there are tons of probles with clergy members....
Hey, Anba Serapion didnt do anything wrong. I ended up seeing the Pope about it, who sort of felt bad for me. He shouted at the priest in question. I give him that much.
You'll prob. think this is a small problem, but I feel that I was taken advantage of.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110838#msg110838 date=1266423803]
And CO, you are in your early 20s, your a female, AND were involved in a problem with the Pope and a huge problem with Anba Serapion and many other priest.....AWESOME........Really, you don't find that around here where there are tons of probles with clergy members....
Hey, Anba Serapion didnt do anything wrong. I ended up seeing the Pope about it, who sort of felt bad for me. He shouted at the priest in question. I give him that much.
You'll prob. think this is a small problem, but I feel that I was taken advantage of.
actually, i don't think that at all. I mean this problem WAS BIG enough to get to the Pope.
Maybe its someone else. Someone told me that I should see a guy called Mina for the tasbeha times. Perhaps its another mina?
it would help if you can provide a last name for that person....maybe pm his phone number to get to him for you!!!!
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8833.msg110840#msg110840 date=1266424592]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110838#msg110838 date=1266423803]
And CO, you are in your early 20s, your a female, AND were involved in a problem with the Pope and a huge problem with Anba Serapion and many other priest.....AWESOME........Really, you don't find that around here where there are tons of probles with clergy members....
Hey, Anba Serapion didnt do anything wrong. I ended up seeing the Pope about it, who sort of felt bad for me. He shouted at the priest in question. I give him that much.
You'll prob. think this is a small problem, but I feel that I was taken advantage of.
actually, i don't think that at all. I mean this problem WAS BIG enough to get to the Pope.
Yeah. That's true. But it wasn't all about "me".. i just ended up in the middle of it.
It would help if I could give you the last name of which person?
"the guy called Mina"
Oh its not important.. i just didnt find the tasbeha time table on the wall. I mean .. its no big deal.
I just assumed it was you for some reason.
I want to quote something that's been said in this thread, that perhaps people may have overlooked: ^^Everyone should be doing this constantly.
And let me just point to this verse:
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. Romans 12:19
Wow Certified Ortho, I'm actually really curious as to what happened lol
I want to quote something that's been said in this thread, that perhaps people may have overlooked: ^^Everyone should be doing this constantly.
And let me just point to this verse:
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. Romans 12:19
Brother, I want justice. I don't someone to take me for a ride, and get away with it.
There's a saying I've picked up here in the USA that really expresses how I feel and been treated by the priesthood:
"Don't piss down my back and tell me its raining."
Do we want God to be just with us? If He treated us as we deserve then we would be beyond hope. But the fact is that we are forgiven by God, and we treat Him much more badly than anyone could treat us. When he hung on the cross it was for my sins, and it was for your sins. Did he deserve that? Was it fair on Him? Why did He not insist on treating us as we deserved?
Why do you want justice? What will it change in terms of you seeking forgiveness from God for your own sins - which is the main thing we should be concerned about.
This is not to diminish anything that might happen to us. But most of us suffer indignities, injustices, bad treatment from others. Yet we are taught not to allow these things to cast us down.
1 Peter 2:19-25 For it is a fine thing if, when moved by your conscience to please God, you suffer patiently when wronged. (20) What credit is it if you sin and patiently receive a beating for it? But if you suffer for doing good and take it patiently, you have God's approval. (21) This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in his steps. (22) "He never committed a sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." (23) When he was insulted, he did not retaliate. When he suffered, he did not threaten but made it his habit to commit the matter to the one who judges fairly. (24) He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to those sins and live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. (25) For you were like sheep that kept going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Father Peter
Why do you want justice?
Because it soothes my soul Yes. and He has! Fr. This is a dangerous game. As you are judging me in my need to seek justice (which is COMPLETELY LAWFUL), Do you not fear God who can also treat you with the same measure you are treating me??
So, are you telling me that if someone killed someone SO BELOVED to you, you wouldn't seek that he faces trial for that? You wouldn't bother??
So why are the Copts around the world seeking justice over Nag Hammadi. Why don't they just let muslims kill them!? After all, its the IDEAL situation to show love. Isn't it!? It will mean that someone will face up to their actions. No matter us all being sinners, we shouldn't be negligent towards one another. We have a responsibility for our actions, and part of that responsibility is to shoulder the choices we make in life.
You do not seek justice. THat's fine for you. Seeking justice for me is within my rights as a European, as an overseas student in the USA, and as a Human Being under international law.
I have rights, and they were violated.
And it is infuriating to be told NOT to seek justice by the very people I'm seeking justice from! Some things are So drastic, so severe that you need to see justice. Christ's suffering was for our sins. My suffering is for someone's irresponsibilty, carelessness and lawlessness.
Look, that's the end of this discussion. I'm not asking for anything more than what is due to me.
Father Peter
If we received from God what is due to us then we would be in trouble.
You are free to seek justice in the courts if you wish. I have no idea what your issue is, nor with which priests or bishops. Since I have no idea who you are or where you live, I can have no personal involvement in this unknown incident involving unknown people. But even if you had recourse to the courts it is a matter of experience over the centuries and millenia that this would not suddenly allow you to forgive, and without being able to give forgiveness you will not be able to grow spiritually.
If you remember, the parents of those killed at Nag Hammadi DID forgive those who killed their children. I can think of no greater exercise and example of forgiveness.
Father Peter
Greetings in Our Lord, who continues to strengthen us in all of our struggles that we pass through daily, seeking to do His will and finding Him freely awaiting our requests. I am a bit reserved in joining this particular conversation, as I feel that I have little to add from my own thoughts, but I pray that perhaps the words in this message will find you well and willing to view things in a slightly different light.
CertifiedOrthodox, I understand the struggle you face, though not aware of what the specific accusation is. We all have an inherent tendency as sons and daughters of Adam to want to react very strongly to things that we consider to be wrongdoings acted against us. We feel hurt that someone would ever consider doing any sort of negative act towards us, and understandably so. In a world in which justice and revenge is sought after several times on a daily basis, we are quickly absorbed into this mentality, making it our own since we were but children in the world. But I ask you, do we consider ourselves to be of this world?
Allow me to be a bit facetious in my example... I hope that it sheds light on all of our eyes, as we find ourselves often in a state of blindness or, in what is often the best case, dimmed sight. Let us say that I am standing outside of my Church, conversing with my fellow brethren in Christ, and another congregation member comes up to me and strikes me in the face. Do I remember the words of Christ to turn the other cheek in obedience to Christ's words, or do I think to myself... "I will let him strike me again, so that my case is strengthened when I take this in front of a judge. Perhaps people didn't see him strike me the first time, but this will certainly get their attention and I will have them as witnesses for my case." I understand that this appears to be a very extreme example, and perhaps ridiculous in some sorts, but it may be that it takes an extreme example so that we may learn more readily.
In Matthew 18:15, it states the following: "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother." Do we make this effort? I feel that, often times, we are quick to run to tell our faults to others, drawing more attention to a situation that may have been more appropriately ameliorated if we followed the words of the Word.
In James 5:19-20: "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." What if we were to view the stumblings of our fellow brethren as opportunities to bring them back to the faith, to restore their faith in God, not only in what we naturally think of as belief but in practice as well. Do we wish to save the souls of our brethren?
It is my opinion that much of the dealings that we have between one another is rooted more in ourselves rather than in the other. When we are angered with someone, do we reprimand them out of anger, wishing that they receive their just desserts, or do we speak to them out of love? Are our actions rooted in love? Should not all of our actions be rooted in love?
I am not discounting your feelings, nor am I saying that there should be no justice, but I ask that, in this time of the Great Lent, we take a deep look into ourselves, our hearts, our minds, our souls, and our spirits, and seek the root of our actions. If the source of our thoughts, the source of our feelings, and the source of our actions is our own selves, then we are too strongly involved with our own selves. A man who relies only on himself will fall every time. If we find, though, that our source is God, be strengthened in your faith, knowing that you progress towards God, sometimes in times of ease and sometimes in times of struggle.
I ask that we put ourselves aside for just a moment, perhaps as we read this message, and truly ask if we have God as the source of our
actions and thoughts.
May we all seek the love of God both within our own selves and the actions that we serve amongst our fellow sojourners in this world, desiring to become firmly rooted in our faith, with the strength of the Father, the humility of the Son, and the grace of the Holy Spirit guiding us in our lives,
childoforthodoxy
But when we insist on justice we are not asking for what is due to us.
If we received from God what is due to us then we would be in trouble.
You are free to seek justice in the courts if you wish. I have no idea what your issue is, nor with which priests or bishops. Since I have no idea who you are or where you live, I can have no personal involvement in this unknown incident involving unknown people. But even if you had recourse to the courts it is a matter of experience over the centuries and millenia that this would not suddenly allow you to forgive, and without being able to give forgiveness you will not be able to grow spiritually.
If you remember, the parents of those killed at Nag Hammadi DID forgive those who killed their children. I can think of no greater exercise and example of forgiveness.
Father Peter
Free those that killed their children in Nag Hammadi, and reward them openly. Let nothing bad happen to them. And then let me know whether the parents still forgive.
I would ask that you do not speak disrespectfully of the parents of those whose children were martyred at Nag Hammadi.
They HAVE forgiven those who took away their children's lives, and I can see no evidence that their act of forgiveness was contingent on the murderers being captured.
If you feel that you must take the matter which has disturbed you to court then do so. You live in a free country. If you cannot forgive then you will not want to listen to what anyone here says. So you are free to do what you think you must. But it is not helpful to you or this forum to keep saying over and over that you have been denied justice. If you seek justice for yourself above all else then write to His Holiness the Pope and ask that he do something more than he has done.
Again, none of us know you, or what has caused you so much pain, so we are not judging the matter or you. But you are clearly very upset and hurt and this affects your view of the whole of the Coptic Orthodox Church. I would wish that you had a FOC with whom you can discuss all of this, it is not entirely appropriate that it keep spilling out onto a semi-public forum.
I am not sure that anyone here can say anything that will fundamentally help you, since in the end the beginning of your healing lies with you and with the desire to forgive those that have hurt you, even while wishing justice be done.
God bless you
Father Peter
I have nothing but admiration and sympathy for the parents of those young men killed.
OK. Let me put it to you this way:
Why on earth did the Coptic Orthodox Church decide to protest in all the countries in the Diaspora against Injustices against Copts in Egypt? Why!?
After what you are saying, it seems that we should not be looking for justice.
I want my rights... so what is the problem!!??
And you were not even interested in responding to my PM's!!!
I am not sure that anyone here can say anything that will fundamentally help you, since in the end the beginning of your healing lies with you and with the desire to forgive those that have hurt you, even while wishing justice be done.
God bless you
Father Peter
Clay did an excellent job until you responded.
Just stop. Khallas. I'm no longer interested in hearing what you have to say concerning this topic. You had the chance to respond to my PM and you chose not to, and rather than just let me be, you insist to lecture me on what I should/should not do.
I think that if you add up all of the responses to messages here on Tasbeha you would find that actually most people are spending most of their time trying to post messages in answer to your questions and problems. You are hardly being ignored, by me or by anyone.
Looking back in my Inbox I see that the last PM from you was on the 13th and was about the Atonement, and nothing to do with this topic. The one before that was on the 8th and concerned the issue you have raised several times here already, therefore I answered it here. So I am not sure which PM you consider I have ignored. I cannot be available 24/7 to answer PMs for just one person, there are others here also I have not yet answered, God only provides 24 hours in the day.
Father Peter
I think that if you add up all of the responses to messages here on Tasbeha you would find that actually most people are spending most of their time trying to post messages in answer to your questions and problems. You are hardly being ignored, by me or by anyone.
Father Peter
I never force anyone to respond. They just do!? Maybe its because I choose the most contentious issues to talk about??
Not sure. But I love those people from Nag Hammadi who have lost loved ones. You have no right to tell me I'm disrespecting them. I was crying all day just watching the requiem mass.
But from suffering similar fate as them, I can tell you it WILL BE INSULT TO INJURY if they free the murderers and reward them publicly. This will hurt like hell. I know.. I've BEEN THERE!!!
Father Peter
Forgivness is one thing and the need for justice is another.
Aside from that question, without condemning anyone, I feel that you want justice but you are afraid to seek it whether because of the consequences that might happen or you are not sure if thats what you really want. Discussing your "issue" on this forum for days and days will not bring you justice; it will grant you gratification to know that your point is well understood and not opposed by anyone. But like many said before, seek justice if you like.
If any of you remember where in corinthians, but there is a passage about how believers should not seek judgment from non-believers against believers. Basically, unless its really extreme, then everything should be dealt with inside the church.
Personally, I think that as humans we are very very limited compared to God. We have limited knowledge, understanding, power etc... So to seek justice and want to carry it on my own is rather not wise. The justice I might seek could be very harmful to me; when in fact God has planned the perfect justice for every wrong action that happens on earth. Therefore, if I seek justice and not want to forgive then I am basically telling God, I can handle this stay out of it.
The righteous Joseph wouldnt have been this famous if he seeked justice on his own. When he was sold by his brothers, he could have easily said that he isnt a slave and it was very easy for him to prove that he is their brother. But he remained silent because he knew that God prepared the best outcome for him. So if Joseph hadnt stayed silent; no one would even know about him today.
Let us all pray that God may grant us a forgiving heart filled with love
pray for me
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet[d] and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’[e] 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”[f]