In the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God, Amen.
Everyone take a chill pill.
Sorry I didnt have time to respond to each post, but I was so busy in the last few days.
I will try and answer everyone on here.
OK.. apparently, I sound like someone who had an ID on here.. I think I know what happened. I share this account with my brother, and he's always on here. He's a bit naughty, but he has SUCH A GOOD HEART! So please be nice to him!!
Anyway, concerning me and my "drama" - let me tell you: Christianity involves topics such as Justice, Righteousness, commandments, Good, Evil, self control, pain, suffering, and Holiness. These are a few keywords I think of when thinking about Christianity. DO YOU NOT think that people will draw upon their life's experiences when trying to make sense of what God's ideal is for them concerning these issues??
So, although it wasn't my intention, I cannot help but think and draw from my own experiences in life in discussing some of these issues.
Now, for the main point: You guys have it WRONG.
110% wrong.
When I'm asking for justice, you are all telling me that we should not be asking for that, and that we should forgive.
You are all mixing things up.
I'll prove it to you all.
I'm not asking for REVENGE. If I was asking for revenge, then you should tell me to forgive. But I'm asking for justice. It is NOT revenge.
JUstice != Revenge. Is that clear??
So, let's say that someone steals from me $10000 USD. Revenge, for those that may need help with this, would be that I steal from him the same amount.
Justice is not repaying evil with evil. This is revenge, and when you forgive, you do not seek to harm the person the way he/she has harmed you.
But Justice is different. Justice is not being taken for a ride. Justice is where I make a person realise that him stealing from me 100000 USD against my own will, against my authority and permission, is NOT a loan, it is STEALING.
Justice is what Copts have been seeking in Egypt for centuries against discrimination?
Why don't you go and tell Copts not to demand equal rights in Egypt? Why don't you tell them to go and forgive??? When Nag Hammadi happened, all copts around the world demanded equal rights for Copts. They demanded religious freedom and equality AND protection. In doing so, this causes an embarrassment to the Egyptian Government, but it is their rights.
The Pope himself asked for the culprits / murderers of Nag Hammadi massacre to face a speedy trial to ensure that people NEED to see justice being served to calm them.
So, let's recap:
Justice IS NOT revenge! I can forgive and DEMAND JUSTICE at the same time. Forgiveness means I will not repay them back for what they've done. I will not kill those who killed those I love, and I will not steal from those who have stolen from those I love. But I will seek justice so that they are aware they face up to the responsibility of their actions, and apologize.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8833.msg110874#msg110874 date=1266445396] Speaking of forgiveness... you yourself made this very inspiring post just a couple of weeks ago.
According to the interviews shown on TV of the families of the victims, they all have forgiven the murderers.
If this isn't a miracle, nor a fruit of God's Holy Spirit, I don't know what is.
They all have said they remarkably feel comforted, and although sad, they have nothing against those who carried out this act of violence and terror.
Forgiveness is part of our raison d'etre as Christians. It says in the Bible that God's ways is foolishness to man - and I see that. It doesnt make sense why anyone would want to forgive; but you have to look at it this way:
Those who killed really need our prayers so they can repent, how will they know God unless through our actions? And our actions in which they are expected to know God is through us showing love, forgiveness, kindness and charity.
These are the tools we use to evangelise our faith.
What has led you to change your mind so radically over the course of two or three weeks?
Father Peter
The People of Nag Hammadi STILL need to see JUSTICE!!! When we say they have forgiven, it means, in my mind, that they do not seek revenge. They are not going to go out on a rampage and kill every muslim they see.
But it does not mean they do not want justice. It does not mean they will accept silently someone telling them that the massacre was done by crazy men who need your prayers. It does not mean they will accept the culprits to walk free.
You are asking of me A LOT here Fr. Farrington! I have HUMAN RIGHTS, and they should not be trivialised.
I am not sure that any one has human rights. I have never believed this to be the case. It seems to me that human rights are an excuse for human rights lawyers to get very rich.
Our Lord has shown us the example that we should follow. It is not an easy way, but it is the way of salvation.
I can't think of any of our martyrs who insisted on seeing justice done, rather than leaving justice to God, in His own time and His own way.
I am immediately drawn to think of the desert father who came back to his cell and found he was being robbed. He didn't shout 'Stop thief!', he went into his cell and found that they had left a small bundle and ran after them to give it to them. He assisted in the injustice being done to himself!
This cannot be made a rule. You have already been advised by several people here that if you believe the matter which has affected you is so serious that it requires further intervention then follow your conscience. But as a rule, the history of the Church and of the martyrs and confessors, teaches us that we do not need to see justice done to believe that God's justice will prevail and to be able to forgive those who wrong us.
PS. I am not sure what you mean about someone sharing your account. All of your posts seem to be by you. The other person that people are referring to closed his account just before you started posting so you may not know him and may not have read any of his posts. But he had a very similar background to you, Franco-Egyptian, living in the UK, had a relative who was a bishop, knows the works of Dr Hany Mina Mikhail very well, and had suffered at the hands of priests and bishops and demanded justice. This is why people are mentioning the similarities.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8833.msg110941#msg110941 date=1266581011] I am not sure that any one has human rights. I have never believed this to be the case. It seems to me that human rights are an excuse for human rights lawyers to get very rich.
Wow.. you do not believe in human rights?
I should organize a small meeting with you and anba Souriel of Australia as he talks about human rights often.
Our Lord has shown us the example that we should follow. It is not an easy way, but it is the way of salvation.
I can't think of any of our martyrs who insisted on seeing justice done, rather than leaving justice to God, in His own time and His own way.
I'll PM you my response.
I am immediately drawn to think of the desert father who came back to his cell and found he was being robbed. He didn't shout 'Stop thief!', he went into his cell and found that they had left a small bundle and ran after them to give it to them. He assisted in the injustice being done to himself!
I'm not a monk.
This cannot be made a rule. You have already been advised by several people here that if you believe the matter which has affected you is so serious that it requires further intervention then follow your conscience. But as a rule, the history of the Church and of the martyrs and confessors, teaches us that we do not need to see justice done to believe that God's justice will prevail and to be able to forgive those who wrong us.
OK.
PS. I am not sure what you mean about someone sharing your account. All of your posts seem to be by you. The other person that people are referring to closed his account just before you started posting so you may not know him and may not have read any of his posts. But he had a very similar background to you, Franco-Egyptian, living in the UK, had a relative who was a bishop, knows the works of Dr Hany Mina Mikhail very well, and had suffered at the hands of priests and bishops and demanded justice. This is why people are mentioning the similarities.
Oh.. no. I was talking about the same account. I just noticed that someone had sent messages from my outbox - but its OK. My brother and I know the same people. I'd rather not mention people's names on a public forum Fr. Peter, you can PM me.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8833.msg110941#msg110941 date=1266581011] I can't think of any of our martyrs who insisted on seeing justice done, rather than leaving justice to God, in His own time and His own way.
Oh I can!
Read the story of how st Paul demanded to be treated fairly and not taken advantage of!!!
Read it in Acts 16:
6Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." 18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her. 19When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities. 20They brought them before the magistrates and said, "These men are Jews, and are throwing our city into an uproar 21by advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice."
22The crowd joined in the attack against Paul and Silas, and the magistrates ordered them to be stripped and beaten. 23After they had been severely flogged, they were thrown into prison, and the jailer was commanded to guard them carefully. 24Upon receiving such orders, he put them in the inner cell and fastened their feet in the stocks.
25About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them. 26Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everybody's chains came loose. 27The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped. 28But Paul shouted, "Don't harm yourself! We are all here!"
29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family.
35When it was daylight, the magistrates sent their officers to the jailer with the order: "Release those men." 36The jailer told Paul, "The magistrates have ordered that you and Silas be released. Now you can leave. Go in peace."
37But Paul said to the officers: "They beat us publicly without a trial, even though we are Roman citizens, and threw us into prison. And now do they want to get rid of us quietly? No! Let them come themselves and escort us out."
Even Saint Paul himself demanded to be treated fairly. This "fair treatment" is justice (in my opinion). He didn't just say to them: OK.. you accused me unfairly, please punish me also unfairly...
I know we are now a little bit off topic from the main title but I thought I would share with you something that a wonderful monk once told me and my mum.
My mum was having a difficult time at work. Her boss was supposed to be training her for some exams but instead he was difficult and unkind to her. This upset her very much. Eventually, at the end of her job with him she was thinking about what she should write about him in her feedback form.. should she make a formal complaint? So one day this monk came to our house to bless it, we sat and talked together. My mum told him that she was having trouble deciding what to do about this man should she speak up so that he stops acting like this or should she stay silent and forgive. Either way she should forgive but should she stay silent?
Abouna then said to her that different people differ... some are kind and gentle and want to stay at peace with everyone and not upset anyone whilst others are stronger in a sense and want to speak up when things are wrong. Both ways are right, either the gentler way like Moses who begged for God to have mercy on His people when they sinned or the stronger way like Elijah who prayed that God would strike down the wicked. They are very different ways but both good as long as they are walking towards God (like different lanes in a road) both take you towards God. The gentler type would be uneasy speaking up and would hurt himself by complaining about someone else to get justice for him/herself, whilst the stronger type wants to speak up and get justice and fairness. God works with both types He will support and defend you whether you choose the gentler or stronger way. However, when it comes to other people's rights it is not for us to be quiet and let injustice continue. We cannot give up their rights but we should speak up for the weak and helpless. We can remain silent when our own rights are denied or justice is denied to us but when it comes to other people's rights it is not up to us. God created each of us and our characters and He likes to work with us when we walk towards Him He will let us take the path that is comfortable for us and true to our character. If we are the gentler quieter type He will support us and defend us and if we are the stronger type He will also support us when we speak up for justice.
that is all that I wrote down that He said.. and I find much peace and wisdom in it. I apologise for the iffy English, he was speaking in arabic at the time so i can't tell you the exact words he said (+im not sure if he spoke in terms of rights but what i mean is when someone treats you badly unfairly).
deciding whether to speak up when people treat you badly is a difficult thing. May Christ be our guide and our light. Turn to God with your hurt and ask Him to stand by you and help you. If you speak up, speak with grace, love, gentleness, peace, wisdom and strength so that those who hear you do not become defensive but learn from you and see the truth in your words. In this way you may lead them to repentance and bring them also closer to Christ.
Be courageous and know that God is with you. Peace and love! =)
Comments
Everyone take a chill pill.
Sorry I didnt have time to respond to each post, but I was so busy in the last few days.
I will try and answer everyone on here.
OK.. apparently, I sound like someone who had an ID on here.. I think I know what happened. I share this account with my brother, and he's always on here. He's a bit naughty, but he has SUCH A GOOD HEART! So please be nice to him!!
Anyway, concerning me and my "drama" - let me tell you: Christianity involves topics such as Justice, Righteousness, commandments, Good, Evil, self control, pain, suffering, and Holiness. These are a few keywords I think of when thinking about Christianity. DO YOU NOT think that people will draw upon their life's experiences when trying to make sense of what God's ideal is for them concerning these issues??
So, although it wasn't my intention, I cannot help but think and draw from my own experiences in life in discussing some of these issues.
Now, for the main point: You guys have it WRONG.
110% wrong.
When I'm asking for justice, you are all telling me that we should not be asking for that, and that we should forgive.
You are all mixing things up.
I'll prove it to you all.
I'm not asking for REVENGE. If I was asking for revenge, then you should tell me to forgive. But I'm asking for justice. It is NOT revenge.
JUstice != Revenge. Is that clear??
So, let's say that someone steals from me $10000 USD. Revenge, for those that may need help with this, would be that I steal from him the same amount.
Justice is not repaying evil with evil. This is revenge, and when you forgive, you do not seek to harm the person the way he/she has harmed you.
But Justice is different. Justice is not being taken for a ride. Justice is where I make a person realise that him stealing from me 100000 USD against my own will, against my authority and permission, is NOT a loan, it is STEALING.
Justice is what Copts have been seeking in Egypt for centuries against discrimination?
Why don't you go and tell Copts not to demand equal rights in Egypt? Why don't you tell them to go and forgive??? When Nag Hammadi happened, all copts around the world demanded equal rights for Copts. They demanded religious freedom and equality AND protection. In doing so, this causes an embarrassment to the Egyptian Government, but it is their rights.
The Pope himself asked for the culprits / murderers of Nag Hammadi massacre to face a speedy trial to ensure that people NEED to see justice being served to calm them.
So, let's recap:
Justice IS NOT revenge!
I can forgive and DEMAND JUSTICE at the same time. Forgiveness means I will not repay them back for what they've done. I will not kill those who killed those I love, and I will not steal from those who have stolen from those I love. But I will seek justice so that they are aware they face up to the responsibility of their actions, and apologize.
I hope this clear.
Speaking of forgiveness... you yourself made this very inspiring post just a couple of weeks ago. What has led you to change your mind so radically over the course of two or three weeks?
Father Peter
The People of Nag Hammadi STILL need to see JUSTICE!!! When we say they have forgiven, it means, in my mind, that they do not seek revenge. They are not going to go out on a rampage and kill every muslim they see.
But it does not mean they do not want justice. It does not mean they will accept silently someone telling them that the massacre was done by crazy men who need your prayers. It does not mean they will accept the culprits to walk free.
You are asking of me A LOT here Fr. Farrington! I have HUMAN RIGHTS, and they should not be trivialised.
Our Lord has shown us the example that we should follow. It is not an easy way, but it is the way of salvation.
I can't think of any of our martyrs who insisted on seeing justice done, rather than leaving justice to God, in His own time and His own way.
I am immediately drawn to think of the desert father who came back to his cell and found he was being robbed. He didn't shout 'Stop thief!', he went into his cell and found that they had left a small bundle and ran after them to give it to them. He assisted in the injustice being done to himself!
This cannot be made a rule. You have already been advised by several people here that if you believe the matter which has affected you is so serious that it requires further intervention then follow your conscience. But as a rule, the history of the Church and of the martyrs and confessors, teaches us that we do not need to see justice done to believe that God's justice will prevail and to be able to forgive those who wrong us.
PS. I am not sure what you mean about someone sharing your account. All of your posts seem to be by you. The other person that people are referring to closed his account just before you started posting so you may not know him and may not have read any of his posts. But he had a very similar background to you, Franco-Egyptian, living in the UK, had a relative who was a bishop, knows the works of Dr Hany Mina Mikhail very well, and had suffered at the hands of priests and bishops and demanded justice. This is why people are mentioning the similarities.
Father Peter
I am not sure that any one has human rights. I have never believed this to be the case. It seems to me that human rights are an excuse for human rights lawyers to get very rich.
Wow.. you do not believe in human rights?
I should organize a small meeting with you and anba Souriel of Australia as he talks about human rights often. I'll PM you my response. I'm not a monk. OK. Oh.. no. I was talking about the same account. I just noticed that someone had sent messages from my outbox - but its OK. My brother and I know the same people. I'd rather not mention people's names on a public forum Fr. Peter, you can PM me.
Thanks
I can't think of any of our martyrs who insisted on seeing justice done, rather than leaving justice to God, in His own time and His own way.
Oh I can!
Read the story of how st Paul demanded to be treated fairly and not taken advantage of!!!
Read it in Acts 16: Even Saint Paul himself demanded to be treated fairly. This "fair treatment" is justice (in my opinion). He didn't just say to them: OK.. you accused me unfairly, please punish me also unfairly...
I know we are now a little bit off topic from the main title but I thought I would share with you something that a wonderful monk once told me and my mum.
My mum was having a difficult time at work. Her boss was supposed to be training her for some exams but instead he was difficult and unkind to her. This upset her very much. Eventually, at the end of her job with him she was thinking about what she should write about him in her feedback form.. should she make a formal complaint? So one day this monk came to our house to bless it, we sat and talked together. My mum told him that she was having trouble deciding what to do about this man should she speak up so that he stops acting like this or should she stay silent and forgive. Either way she should forgive but should she stay silent?
Abouna then said to her that different people differ... some are kind and gentle and want to stay at peace with everyone and not upset anyone whilst others are stronger in a sense and want to speak up when things are wrong. Both ways are right, either the gentler way like Moses who begged for God to have mercy on His people when they sinned or the stronger way like Elijah who prayed that God would strike down the wicked. They are very different ways but both good as long as they are walking towards God (like different lanes in a road) both take you towards God. The gentler type would be uneasy speaking up and would hurt himself by complaining about someone else to get justice for him/herself, whilst the stronger type wants to speak up and get justice and fairness. God works with both types He will support and defend you whether you choose the gentler or stronger way.
However, when it comes to other people's rights it is not for us to be quiet and let injustice continue. We cannot give up their rights but we should speak up for the weak and helpless. We can remain silent when our own rights are denied or justice is denied to us but when it comes to other people's rights it is not up to us.
God created each of us and our characters and He likes to work with us when we walk towards Him He will let us take the path that is comfortable for us and true to our character. If we are the gentler quieter type He will support us and defend us and if we are the stronger type He will also support us when we speak up for justice.
that is all that I wrote down that He said.. and I find much peace and wisdom in it. I apologise for the iffy English, he was speaking in arabic at the time so i can't tell you the exact words he said (+im not sure if he spoke in terms of rights but what i mean is when someone treats you badly unfairly).
deciding whether to speak up when people treat you badly is a difficult thing. May Christ be our guide and our light. Turn to God with your hurt and ask Him to stand by you and help you. If you speak up, speak with grace, love, gentleness, peace, wisdom and strength so that those who hear you do not become defensive but learn from you and see the truth in your words. In this way you may lead them to repentance and bring them also closer to Christ.
Be courageous and know that God is with you.
Peace and love!
=)
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8833.msg110699#msg110699 date=1266347232]
I didn't know we do Matonia's to a bishop?! What for?
I asked the same question to a monk in Texas and he told me that we are honouring Christ in the Bishop.
Pray for me