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decent people

aidanaidan
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Having just been closely connected with a funeral of a relation of mine I was impressed by the kindness and decency of all his colleagues and relatives.(He was a common British type of Christian-a non practising Anglican).

In general I would say that people are kind, decent and hospitable from whichever culture or religious grouping they come.

However being decent is not enough to warrant salvation. We need living faith.

I was sad when my uncle died. He was more charitable than me (an Orthodox Christian). He was kinder and always went the extra mile to help.Obviously I pray for his repose but if one is saved by being decent what is the point of struggling with the Faith? I wish there was universal salvation, as Origen taught. The Church condemned this teaching so where are our grounds for hope with those we are close to who are decent but not active Christians.

Please pray for me, as this issue has caused me trouble all my life.

Comments

  • PaulSamirPaulSamir
    One of the most dangerous things to do is compare yourself with other people such as your Uncle. As you said your Uncle was a very charitable person, the reason he was so charitable was because he was given more. When we compare ourselves with others it will never match up because each of us have been given different opportunities to do good. Let's say I don't have my drivers license yet but one of my friends does and he goes to church all the time to serve, if i compare myself to him its not right because I might not be able to serve at all because of parents schedule and the fact I don't have a license or a car, but i can still serve around the house or neighborhood like washing dishes or shoveling snow :).

    Hope I helped in some way. Pray for me and God Bless
  • aidanaidan
    Thanks for that.

    Let me clarify. The sin is on our part making judgements whereas its quite clear from scripture and the Fathers that we 'judge not'.

  • mabsootamabsoota
    i heard from a doctor this weekend that he had a difficult patient who was very unhealthy, smoking, drinking etc. he encouraged the patient to seek God, but the patient wasn't interested, so the doctor kept dishing out the pills and the health warnings. a few years later the patient died, which was not surprising, as it seemed he never listened. after the funeral a friend of the patient came to the doctor saying, 'my friend told me i must tell you that he found God as he lay in the hospital, sick'.
    so we never know what happens in the final moments.
    we do know that God is faithful and WILL give everyone the right chances before they die. this doesn't mean they will take them, but God knows their hearts, He knows if it is rebellious or open.
    may God give you peace in this hard time, and i pray you will be united with your uncle in paradise.
  • CertifiedOrthodox
    Aiden,

    The worst, most wicked people i've ever come across in my life happen to be Coptic Orthodox. From priests, to bishops. From servants to just anyone.

    I don't think religion makes a difference.

    In fact, the worst experiences in my life was in the Coptic Church.

    I was just talking to a sunday school teacher who is a well respected theologian, and he was saying that those that obey the law are saved, not necessarily those who know it (Christians). It is keeping the law that saves you, not knowing it.

    I hope that's the case, [Moderated: inappropriate language]

    If the admins decide to erase this, I'll post it EVERYWHERE. Its the truth. Get over it. You're not perfect.
  • coptic youthcoptic youth
    CertifedOrthodox,
    I am sorry to hear that you have had a terrible experience in your home church. I hope things are better for you.

    @ Aiden: I pray for your peace and comfort. Dont forget that God looks at the heart not by ur classifaction, or race.

    Pray for me,

    Coptic youth!
  • teji aflio
    CertifiedOrthodox,

    Sorry to hear you've had bad experiences in the Church, but I must say I've had the opposite experience. While nobody's perfect, I've seen so many good people do so many good things in my Coptic Church.

    Also, I think we should be a little careful about saying any person is among the "worst, most wicked people". How can you say that? If you feel in your heart that someone is wicked, then something is wrong. This is the definition of judging. Who can determine who is wicked except God? How do you know their hearts? David himself committed adultery and murder. I'm almost certain you would consider him wicked, but God called him a "man after His own heart".

    I'm really not trying to defend the people who have wronged you; I'm just trying to help you get an easier judgement i guess (“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7:1-2)

    Hope I didn't offend!
  • CertifiedOrthodox
    [quote author=teji aflio link=topic=8827.msg111101#msg111101 date=1266884593]
    CertifiedOrthodox,

    Sorry to hear you've had bad experiences in the Church, but I must say I've had the opposite experience. While nobody's perfect, I've seen so many good people do so many good things in my Coptic Church.

    Also, I think we should be a little careful about saying any person is among the "worst, most wicked people". How can you say that? If you feel in your heart that someone is wicked, then something is wrong. This is the definition of judging. Who can determine who is wicked except God? How do you know their hearts? David himself committed adultery and murder. I'm almost certain you would consider him wicked, but God called him a "man after His own heart".

    I'm really not trying to defend the people who have wronged you; I'm just trying to help you get an easier judgement i guess (“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7:1-2)

    Hope I didn't offend!


    THanks Teji,

    I know how the argument goes: no one is perfect - we are all sinners, and therefore we must forgive one another. However, I feel I've really been paying for my sins. God hasn't let anything pass.

    I just want justice. That's all. Not revenge.
  • coolboy1000gcoolboy1000g
    I believe its all about perspective and how we look at things. If we look at things through a loving eye, we would not be able to see the other people sin. I just recalled a story I read, one time one of the youth went to his FOC and he was in pain and agony because his constant temptations with physical lusts. He couldnt overcome them and during the confession, he mentioned to his priest that he thinks all his coptic friends are the same and they are all tempted with bodily desires. At the end, he mentiones that he doesnt think that any of them are pure. So his FOC asks him to pray and struggle hard and to ask God for wisdom and love. A few months pass by and he comes back to the priest with a completely different perspective. He realized how much of a sinner he is and he constantly asks God for forgiveness and because of that he told his FOC I believe I am the only sinner in the church and all the other youths are filled with purity and holiness. He is the same person but how he looks/judges others completely changed when he realized his own mistakes.
    Thats why we cannot generalize and say that all coptic people are good or bad. But we have to remember that in the first place the church is created and built for the sick and unhealthy. Christ came and died for the patients not for those who are in no need for his help. Plus heaven rejoices when one sinner repents, thats why I wouldnt be disappointed if the church is full of sinners because we (the sick) are the most people that need help.
    So let us all pray that God will always bestow his mercy on us that we would be able to see the true light before our day comes when we have to leave the earth and stand before the almighty God.


    Pray for me
  • teji aflio
    [quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8827.msg111102#msg111102 date=1266886202]

    THanks Teji,

    I know how the argument goes: no one is perfect - we are all sinners, and therefore we must forgive one another. However, I feel I've really been paying for my sins. God hasn't let anything pass.

    I just want justice. That's all. Not revenge.


    Hi CO,

    That's admirable that you don't want revenge, but what is justice? For example, I am a sinner. If someone comes and  beats me senseless, and then escapes and faces no consequences, then justice would appear to have been forsaken. However, if I forgive this person, and on judgement day, God forgives me because I forgave my attacker, then have I not been granted justice?

    Certainly I have! Justice is administered regardless of the state of the attacker. I have been given exactly what I gave (forgiveness), and that is the definition of justice. Do not think much of earthly justice. What will that get you? 30-40 years of gratification? These couple of decades of satisfaction from earthly justice are literally and mathematically zero when compared to the eternal and infinite satisfaction you will gain from divine justice.

    I know this is easy for me to say, since I haven't experienced your hardships, but I really think if you pin your hopes on divine justice rather than earthly justice...
    a) you will not be disappointed
    b) you will be at rest, fully confident that the Almighty and eternally just God will give you your due

    "Do not put your trust in princes,
            Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.
    His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;
            In that very day his plans perish.       
    Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help,
            Whose hope is in the LORD his God" (Psalm 146:3-5)

    Sry for the length. Again, hope I didn't offend.
  • CertifiedOrthodox
    [quote author=teji aflio link=topic=8827.msg111117#msg111117 date=1266923817]
    [quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8827.msg111102#msg111102 date=1266886202]

    THanks Teji,

    I know how the argument goes: no one is perfect - we are all sinners, and therefore we must forgive one another. However, I feel I've really been paying for my sins. God hasn't let anything pass.

    I just want justice. That's all. Not revenge.


    Hi CO,

    That's admirable that you don't want revenge, but what is justice? For example, I am a sinner. If someone comes and  beats me senseless, and then escapes and faces no consequences, then justice would appear to have been forsaken. However, if I forgive this person, and on judgement day, God forgives me because I forgave my attacker, then have I not been granted justice?

    Certainly I have! Justice is administered regardless of the state of the attacker. I have been given exactly what I gave (forgiveness), and that is the definition of justice. Do not think much of earthly justice. What will that get you? 30-40 years of gratification? These couple of decades of satisfaction from earthly justice are literally and mathematically zero when compared to the eternal and infinite satisfaction you will gain from divine justice.

    I know this is easy for me to say, since I haven't experienced your hardships, but I really think if you pin your hopes on divine justice rather than earthly justice...
    a) you will not be disappointed
    b) you will be at rest, fully confident that the Almighty and eternally just God will give you your due

    "Do not put your trust in princes,
             Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.
    His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;
             In that very day his plans perish.         
    Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help,
             Whose hope is in the LORD his God" (Psalm 146:3-5)

    Sry for the length. Again, hope I didn't offend.


    Thanks Teji.

    God bless you for your kind response.

    I suppose you are right. However, just a small question: On judgement day, you said "God will forgive you for your sins" - but what if you have never ever beat anyone senseless like what happened to you?

    Do you get a voucher instead to spend it on something else? OK.. sorry, how does it work?
  • mabsootamabsoota
    sorry, i don't have time for long posts for the next few months (work+study) but the main answer to that question is in 1 corinthians 3:14, talking about building on the foundation (which is Jesus) and what will happen in eternal life if a person builds well.
    'if anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward'.
  • teji aflio
    [quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8827.msg111102#msg111102 date=1266886202]

    Thanks Teji.

    God bless you for your kind response.

    I suppose you are right. However, just a small question: On judgement day, you said "God will forgive you for your sins" - but what if you have never ever beat anyone senseless like what happened to you?

    Do you get a voucher instead to spend it on something else? OK.. sorry, how does it work?


    Hi CO,

    So sorry for the long delay; I haven't had a chance to visit in a while. Very interesting question regarding God's judgement. I don't think He judges the same way we judge. We judge according to what people do (or what we think they do). God judges according to what people do with what He gave them. This is what is meant by the parable of the talents. So, it is possible that, in the eyes of God, simply having an angry thought for one person is equivalent to beating someone senseless for someone else, depending on what they've been given.

    This story about St. Pishoy says the same thing (hope you understand Arabic. If not, let me know)

    The other thing is, even if I went my entire life without committing a sin, I would still be more indebted to God than the one who beat me senseless would be indebted to me. Why? Because I am a man. The story of Adam (which means man) is not just the story of one guy; it is the story of each of us. God created me from dust and gave me paradise to enjoy and withheld nothing from me. He told me not to eat from just one tree, but I ate and earned the sentence of death. Now I have sinned against God and am indebted to Him. But this debt is infinite, because the One whom I owe is infinite, and His judgement is infinite. So no matter what I do, I cannot pay by myself. Fortunately, God sent His Only-Begotten Son to pay this for me.

    So now I'm good, right? No debt! Kind of. I still have to accept Jesus' paying of my debt by living in Him and like Him. If I don't, I rejected His offer to pay my debt. Part of living like Him is forgiving like Him. Otherwise, I'm asking for someone to forgive me an infinite debt without being willing to forgive someone a finite debt. THIS is not justice. This is the exact meaning of the parable of the unforgiving servant - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew 18:21-35&version=NKJV  (keep in mind, 10,000 talents is an impossible amount of money)

    So basically, it doesn't matter what anyone does to us. We have to forgive them no matter what, even if they are literally killing us (like Jesus Himself, or St. Stephen). As long as we forgive, God will give us justice.
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