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Why did our all- knowing God create the angel Lucifer in the first place?
This question is way over my head. I know.
Keeping in mind God is All- Knowing, He knows everything before anything was created.
He knew that the angel Lucifer will become Satan and his angels will become his devils...
He knew that Adam and Eve will sin...
He knew that this would be a fallen world...
He knew that some of us will go down to hell for eternity and suffer for eternity because of our lack of repentance and confession...
He knew that He will have to send Himself to die the worst death to save us from our sins... And He also knew that some people will not believe this... And He knew that the system of this world will be under Satan’s system.
He knew that many will be cast into the lake of fire...
Then why did He create us in the beginning? And that aside, why did He create Lucifer?
It’s either this is a wisdom way over my head, or I am missing something... I’m not completely fluent with all theological concepts but maybe there is a theological concept to explain this? Perhaps we were in a worse state but this is the best state? Perhaps it’s a matter of personal choice? There is this one verse in the Bible that always comes up when I think this, "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." (John 15:19) (Jesus also said that He was not from this world, "My kingdom is not from here" etc.). So does that mean that there are people of this world and people not of this world? Were we chosen? And how do we know that? Is that related to the Holy Sacrament of Confirmation?
Don’t get me wrong, I am glad He created us so we can feel the joy of family, learn and grow and there are so many benefits including a chance to enter heaven and see God. But there are not so good things about our existence also, like sin, suffering, a chance that one might end up in the lake of fire and burn and be eaten by the worms that never die that I ask myself sometimes, if God, knowing that the angel Lucifer one day and kicked out of heaven for his sin of pride and become Satan and cause the destruction of the world along with the fall of Adam and Eve and then move on to destroy the people of the world with his system, why did He create him in the first place?
I know I shouldn't be lifting heavy objects and asking huge questions, but I want to have a solid answer when this question comes up the future from children, Sunday school students, friends and colleagues.
Keeping in mind God is All- Knowing, He knows everything before anything was created.
He knew that the angel Lucifer will become Satan and his angels will become his devils...
He knew that Adam and Eve will sin...
He knew that this would be a fallen world...
He knew that some of us will go down to hell for eternity and suffer for eternity because of our lack of repentance and confession...
He knew that He will have to send Himself to die the worst death to save us from our sins... And He also knew that some people will not believe this... And He knew that the system of this world will be under Satan’s system.
He knew that many will be cast into the lake of fire...
Then why did He create us in the beginning? And that aside, why did He create Lucifer?
It’s either this is a wisdom way over my head, or I am missing something... I’m not completely fluent with all theological concepts but maybe there is a theological concept to explain this? Perhaps we were in a worse state but this is the best state? Perhaps it’s a matter of personal choice? There is this one verse in the Bible that always comes up when I think this, "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." (John 15:19) (Jesus also said that He was not from this world, "My kingdom is not from here" etc.). So does that mean that there are people of this world and people not of this world? Were we chosen? And how do we know that? Is that related to the Holy Sacrament of Confirmation?
Don’t get me wrong, I am glad He created us so we can feel the joy of family, learn and grow and there are so many benefits including a chance to enter heaven and see God. But there are not so good things about our existence also, like sin, suffering, a chance that one might end up in the lake of fire and burn and be eaten by the worms that never die that I ask myself sometimes, if God, knowing that the angel Lucifer one day and kicked out of heaven for his sin of pride and become Satan and cause the destruction of the world along with the fall of Adam and Eve and then move on to destroy the people of the world with his system, why did He create him in the first place?
I know I shouldn't be lifting heavy objects and asking huge questions, but I want to have a solid answer when this question comes up the future from children, Sunday school students, friends and colleagues.
Comments
Father Peter
And how about all these souls out there that do not believe in God and do not involve themselves in confession or repentance? Did He create them for love as well even though He knew from before they were conceived that some will end up in the lake of fire and suffer for eternity?
Does any one else think that free will is more of a curse than a blessing?
Because to be quite honest on one hand, I would not have wanted to be born in the first place to find out at the end of my life which will be <100 years I will be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity, but on the other hand its enough motivation to keep me going in the right track of repentance and confession and the right way to love God back.
Then this gets me to another question, why does God give us a short time on earth (measured in years) and repay us with eternity (FOREVER AND EVER)? So if X lived a righteous life for say 70 years, he will be repayed with heaven in the presence of God for all eternity. Also, say Z lived a sinful life for 70 years, he will be repayed with hell for all eternity, when he was only sinful for 70 years on earth, what the Bible calls a "vapour"...? Is our eternity measured upon something that the Bible calls a vapour?
Sorry father Peter, I know I can ask alot of questions.
We know that we are in danger when we reject God's love, but let us be careful not to even attempt to determine for ourselves how God will judge others. Once we have heard of God's love and understood it then we are liable for how we respond. But it is not for us to say how God will judge those who have not clearly heard the Gospel. It is not for us to say whether or not God will show mercy on this or that person. It is enough for us to seek God with all our hearts and minds and energy.
If you do not have free will then you do not exist as a human person. You are no more a person than a book or a tree. It is only because of free will that we have the possibility of being united with God. This is a blessing, and through the misuse of our will it has brought us into bondage to sin. But this is our fault, not God's. God gives us all that we need to live a life of holiness and obedience, if we fail to make use of his gifts and grace then he is not to blame.
Do you love a child, even though it has the possibility of turning out bad? Do you cease loving the child when it turns out bad? We cannot even imagine what it is like to be God, in particular the sense of being outside of time and therefore seeing and knowing all things at once. What we can say is that God is merciful and just, and all will be well in the will of God. It is not for us to know how the will of God for all men will be worked out. It is not for us to decide who will be cast into the lake of fire. We will undoubtedly be very wrong.
True faith does not consist in doing things to avoid punishment. We do not love God because we are afraid. We love God because he is entirely worthy of our love and our worship.
I think that on the one hand it is not for us to enquire too much about the judgements of God. He will do always what is merciful and just. Some Fathers do suggest that there is the possibility that all will in the end be brought to repentance, no Orthodox writers of any standing - and Augustine is not an Orthodox Father - seem to me to accept that God creates people only for punishment. But I do think that the Agpeya and the Fathers teach us the right way to view our lives in relation to eternity. They say that it is a blessing that we live such a short life because we are liable to do so much evil, but equally it is only 70 years to do good. Can we not even manage 70 years of service? If we cannot be faithful for 70 years do we think that given 700 years we would all become saints? We are not punished because of our sin, rather the quality if our life, whether or not we are turned towards God or not, determines whether or not in eternity we will delight in God's presence or shrink from it.
The thief on the cross was granted salvation in the last moments of a generally bad life. This does not excuse us, but it does show that God wills to be merciful in accordance with justice whenever he is able. according to his own will. I know of converts from Islam who have become believers by the revelation of God to them. There are others, pagans even, in history, who have had revelations of God which they have believed and received, even whole tribes. It seems to me that God looks for the turning of a heart towards him, and pours grace out on those who respond.
This is a mystery. It is not liable to narrow definition. Mostly it is a matter which is hidden from us. We cannot say that the Orthodox Christian Faith is not necessary. We cannot say that our Lord Jesus Christ is not the only Way, the only Truth and the only Life. But there are hints in the scripture that those who do not know the truth - and we will be judged for not sharing it - will be judged in accordance with their response to the truth that God has revealed to them. The life that they may or may not receive is still that of Christ, they can have no other Saviour even if they do not know him well. Indeed none of us know Christ well. There is much ignorance even among Orthodox Christians. There is superstition even. There are those who have been baptised but live as if they were Christians only on Sunday. If God chooses to grant life to a thief as he dies, then clearly we are not saved because of what we do. We cannot earn salvation. And if we cannot earn salvation, and must only seek God with faith and hope, then perhaps he will show mercy to those even more ignorant than us, even less able to embrace the life of the Church, who nevertheless seek God and wish that they knew him better than they do. Such a person would not be saved by Hinduism or Islam or whatever, they would only be saved by Christ, and by their incoherent cry to the God they do not know - Lord, have mercy.
What does this mean? Only, don't worry about the salvation of others, worry about your own. Seek the Holy Spirit in your own life above all else. Share your faith, and believe that God is love, and that God so loved the world - the whole world - that he sent his only begotten Son to be the Saviour of the world. How he works out this love in accordance with his justice is beyond our comprehension. Thank God we do not have to have all the answers.
What will God do to those who have not heard of Christ - he will do what is loving and just. What will he do to those of us who have had every benefit of life in the Church and who do not live Christian lives - he will do what is loving and just.
Father Peter
GOD created the Angels but Lucifer seperated himself by envy. I believe we have free will to follow Jesus because we decide to accecpt or reject his truth. I believe the Angels had the same free will and Satan had taken some Angels with him; devils and bought them to earth. It was Satan who bought sin into the world by coming here, so seperating us from GOD through sin just like Satan is seperated, although his is permanant.
Through Jesus Christ we have the free will to be brought back to GOD. Jesus asks us to follow and says how to do it and proves that our souls can be brought back to GOD. We become strong and mature when we make the right decisions through Jesus's teachings. The starting point is free will, then disicion, then with the right decision a return to GOD and his truth.
Envy despises what someone else has. GOD has all the power, but free will is the starting point GOD gave us because we are different from the animal kingdom just like the Angels are different. Both seem to be very intelligent. Questions are either worldly or Spiritual depending on the way you think. So you either hear or don't hear what is being said.
I pray that you grow in the strength of Jesus Christ
I forgot to note that the Deciples also had the free will to follow Jesus. To accept or reject his miracles which are a spiritual thing.
GOD bless you.
1.We cannot imagine what it is like to be God.
2.Living a short life is for our own advantage, a blessing because we are liable to do so much sin if we are given a longer period to live.
3. He works out this love in accordance with his justice is beyond our comprehension.
4. What will God do to those who have not heard of Christ - he will do what is loving and just. What will he do to those of us who have had every benefit of life in the Church and who do not live Christian lives - he will do what is loving and just.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8883.msg111258#msg111258 date=1267198372]
The thief on the cross was granted salvation in the last moments of a generally bad life. This does not excuse us, but it does show that God wills to be merciful in accordance with justice whenever he is able. according to his own will. I know of converts from Islam who have become believers by the revelation of God to them. There are others, pagans even, in history, who have had revelations of God which they have believed and received, even whole tribes. It seems to me that God looks for the turning of a heart towards him, and pours grace out on those who respond.
This is a mystery. It is not liable to narrow definition. Mostly it is a matter which is hidden from us. We cannot say that the Orthodox Christian Faith is not necessary. We cannot say that our Lord Jesus Christ is not the only Way, the only Truth and the only Life. But there are hints in the scripture that those who do not know the truth - and we will be judged for not sharing it - will be judged in accordance with their response to the truth that God has revealed to them. The life that they may or may not receive is still that of Christ, they can have no other Saviour even if they do not know him well. Indeed none of us know Christ well. There is much ignorance even among Orthodox Christians. There is superstition even. There are those who have been baptised but live as if they were Christians only on Sunday. If God chooses to grant life to a thief as he dies, then clearly we are not saved because of what we do. We cannot earn salvation. And if we cannot earn salvation, and must only seek God with faith and hope, then perhaps he will show mercy to those even more ignorant than us, even less able to embrace the life of the Church, who nevertheless seek God and wish that they knew him better than they do. Such a person would not be saved by Hinduism or Islam or whatever, they would only be saved by Christ, and by their incoherent cry to the God they do not know - Lord, have mercy.
Now this is epic. I never knew we cannot earn salvation and we are not saved because of what we do. I would like to ask, how about the verse "faith without works is dead"? Does that relate to earning salvation or not? If not, what does it relate to?
Joshuaa, I think I see now that a free will is not a curse because it allows us to be brought back to God after sin and its also the difference between the animal kingdom, the angels and ourselves. I see, thanks. But just would like to further ask you, why did Lucifer separate himself by envy when he was right next to God, in the Bible it mentions Lucifer to be one of God's highest ranking angels, how could he sin or think of sinning when he was so close to God's throne, glory and power? I read somewhere before that the absence of Good is the presence of evil as cold is the absence of heat and darkness the absence of light. With that in mind, how could he have sinned with God right next to him?
in other words the faith comes first, then our good works are out of gratitude to God.
surely if we really trust in God and love Him, we will do good deeds. this is what saint james is saying, it's crazy to think that you can just get baptized, stand in church and think, there, that's me done, i'm saved now, i can take it easy.
yes, we work out our salvation, it is a continuous process, but we don't earn it, none of us is good enough.
Envy starts with jealousy. Jealousy is a posessive thing in which you either want what someone else has, or already has it, and won't share it. To deny getting what you want can turn to envy which is a hatred that someone else has it and you don't.
GOD wants us to have a relationship with him. Since he is our creator then he is the Father of us all. Like any parent, they want their children bought up well and is forgiving on mistakes that are made. We can have a relationship with him by relating to him. He wants to share his love with us. So we can understand him to a point. When I was a child my father knew much more the me but there is so much more he could of shared.
I am a Deacon in the Church so I am a servant for GOD and so I do GOD'S will for good, freely, and there is not me trying to control a situation. Once I start taking control then I am exerting my power or will.
Maybe Lucifer realised his own power so didn't serve GOD according to his will. So a seperation occured. Jealousy is also a competitive thing wanting the same thing. So not getting it turns to the hatred of envy. GOD is the supreme being.
May you be blessed with a strong relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
In the same way Our Master, is the physical manifestation of the Love of God the Father. He is the Incarnate Word.
As for the original topic, I've wondered a lot about this. I wondered why an Omniscient God would take an action (creation with free will) that would have negative results for Him (our fall and the need for Him to come and be crucified to save us). Then I realized, that is not a negative result for Him. He wanted to save us from the beginning. Maybe, as the true personification of love, He found it the most desirable result to be able to save us from death through His suffering (even more desirable than the result of us simply never falling into sin).
This verse kind of lead me to believe what I'm saying:
"I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance." (Luke 15:7)
These are just my thoughts and I may be wrong, so someone please correct me if I am.
Some people who responded, although I appreciate your responses and just strengthens what I already know, it still didn't answer my primary question of why our Omniscent God would take an action that would have some negative results... but now that we have established it could have been "most desirable by God" and the true personification of love and that has answered my question.