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Talking
Selam everyone
I was wondering why the desert fathers always talk about silence being important
How can you be a light in the world if your always being quiet?????????
I always wonder this question
May God bless you all
I was wondering why the desert fathers always talk about silence being important
How can you be a light in the world if your always being quiet?????????
I always wonder this question
May God bless you all
Comments
We don't need to speak very much to be doing God's work. Generally when we speak we say too much and draw attention to ourselves and not to God.
Mostly people are helped by having someone listen to them, not talk at them. We should consider when we are in a conversation, am I talking all the time? Am I thinking about what I am going to say next? Am I just waiting to tell my story? These are all signs that we are talking too much. But that doesn't mean we have to be entirely withdrawn. We can ask people what they did over the weekend and mean it, and then actually listen to them, and ask a few questions that allow them to describe their weekend some more. That way we are not dominating the conversation, people don't say 'Why is so-and-so quiet?'. Instead they appreciate being around us and come to trust us to listen - and at some point they may need someone to listen.
Father Peter
"Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify our Father in heaven".
We don't need to speak very much to be doing God's work. Generally when we speak we say too much and draw attention to ourselves and not to God.
Mostly people are helped by having someone listen to them, not talk at them. We should consider when we are in a conversation, am I talking all the time? Am I thinking about what I am going to say next? Am I just waiting to tell my story? These are all signs that we are talking too much. But that doesn't mean we have to be entirely withdrawn. We can ask people what they did over the weekend and mean it, and then actually listen to them, and ask a few questions that allow them to describe their weekend some more. That way we are not dominating the conversation, people don't say 'Why is so-and-so quiet?'. Instead they appreciate being around us and come to trust us to listen - and at some point they may need someone to listen.
Father Peter
hi,
Do you have any references from the desert fathers on this? I find it interesting that you say when we speak, we draw attention to ourselves, and not to God. That is most definately true. However obvious it may seem, I never saw that.
Thanks
Father Peter
i am trying to keep silent more often in church and after church.... talk less, banter less, wiggle my way into conversations less. and it helps!
staying quiet helps us be more grateful for church, and less focused on the social and the selfish.
Father Makarious (Makar) said to his monks after a Liturgy, " Run, Run" and his disciples said, " Run from where, we have left the world and came here" but he replied saying Run to your cell, so you donot lose the blessing you just received. He was talking about how one should leave right after Church once receiving communion, not chatting and talking and joking around and losing the blessing he/she just received. ( This is not to be confused with Sunday school and Church Service)
Some brothers were coming from Scetis to see Abba Anthony. When they were getting into a boat to go there, they found an old man who also wanted to go there. The brothers did not know him. They sat in the boat, occupied by turns with the words of the Fathers, Scripture and their manual work. As for the old man, he remained silent. When they arrived on shore they found that the old man was going to the cell of Abba Anthony, too. When they reached the place, Anthony said to them, "You found this old man a good companion for the journey?" Then he said to the old man, "You have brought many good brethren with you, father." The old man said, "No doubt they are good, but they do not have a door to their house and anyone who wishes can enter the stable and loose the donkey." He meant that the brethren said whatever came into their mouths.
Pope Sheounda has two sermons; Speaking and Speaking 2..they are really good about silence, how and when to talk in conversation. I really recommend them.
Pray for me
Yes those were the passages I had in mind. Thank you for taking the time to post them here.
I don't have Arabic. And I know others don't here. It would be helpful for someone to make some notes from His Holiness' sermons on this subject and post them here so that we benefit from his teaching. May the Lord grant a blessing to anyone able to do so.
I know that in my own relationships with family members I almost always say too much and do not keep silent when I should. I rarely get into trouble by saying too little.
One thing that we can do is to ask others open ended questions rather than closed ones. So instead of saying 'Did you see the football match last night', expecting an answer of 'Yes' or 'No' so that we ourselves can launch into a presentation of our own opinion, we can ask, 'What did you think of the match last night?' and allow the other person to speak. And then we can ask subsidiary questions to prompt them to explain a little more.
I have used a trivial example, but in many cases we are dealing with non-Christian friends, colleagues and family and it seems to me to be good for us to develop a reputation as a listener, not as a know-it-all who always has an opinion. Even online it is good to not always respond to every post on which we have an opinion.
I wonder if there is a sense that when we speak we go out of ourselves and can easily lose our spiritual equilibrium if we do not speak with an awareness of God's presence? If we speak with God, (and I don't mean always speaking in a pseudo-spiritual way) but if we speak out of an interior prayerfulness then we are able to share that stillness with others.
Likewise when we become listeners, we can either listen to all manner of gossip etc and find our inner peace disturbed, or we can be listeners in a way that allows others to enter into our stillness before God.
This would require that we always sought to be in a prayerful state through the use of the Jesus Prayer or some other short prayer.
I know that online I am trying to put into practice a degree of caution and hesitancy in replying to people. It is better not to post in haste. And if in doubt it is better not to post a response at all.
If someone could post the substance of His Holiness' sermons of Speaking let me again say that it would be a blessing for those of us who cannot understand Arabic.
Father Peter
That is not right. But I want to get passages about that in particular.
Serving in Church is not a field trip for our egos - nor should it be used to bring people to God because of us.
I honestly found the statement Fr. Peter made very compelling about talking, and it has made me think a lot about this issue.
St Paul did not speak like one of the big Protestant TV evangelists, and some despised him for it. But his words were full of power to those who were spiritual and did not only consider the outward appearance of a man. I don't ever tell jokes when I preach. In the liturgy of St James, which is my usual liturgy, I pray each time..
And grant that without condemnation the word that has been declared by you may be proclaimed by me to the people in Christ Jesus our Lord, with whom you are blessed, together with your all-holy, good, life-giving and consubstantial Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages.
And I try to take this seriously when I preach. That I am delivering the word of God to the people, and that he is speaking through me, therefore as far as possible I should not draw attention to myself. Therefore I personally don't use jokes, and don't use a lot of anecdotes apart from those taken from the lives of the saints and fathers. As far as possible I think that the homily should be as theologically and spiritually rich as the rest of the liturgy, and should never become entertainment.
Father Peter
There is a danger of presenting ourselves rather than Christ when we preach.
St Paul did not speak like one of the big Protestant TV evangelists, and some despised him for it. But his words were full of power to those who were spiritual and did not only consider the outward appearance of a man. I don't ever tell jokes when I preach. In the liturgy of St James, which is my usual liturgy, I pray each time..
And grant that without condemnation the word that has been declared by you may be proclaimed by me to the people in Christ Jesus our Lord, with whom you are blessed, together with your all-holy, good, life-giving and consubstantial Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages.
And I try to take this seriously when I preach. That I am delivering the word of God to the people, and that he is speaking through me, therefore as far as possible I should not draw attention to myself. Therefore I personally don't use jokes, and don't use a lot of anecdotes apart from those taken from the lives of the saints and fathers. As far as possible I think that the homily should be as theologically and spiritually rich as the rest of the liturgy, and should never become entertainment.
Father Peter
That's really good.
No doubt you are giving St Paul's character as an example of how to preach, and you are saying that he was despised for NOT being charismatic. Other than the part where he says "I did not baptise you in my name" do you have any other references as to the importance of us being vessels for God's Holy Spirit rather than God's Holy Spirit being a channel to convey our personalties?
A person might criticize someone over and over and the other person might not say anything back but his heart will be sorrowful. At least if he says nothing, God will speak on his behalf.
Therefore, Father Arthanious says, “Many times have I spoken and I have regret, but for my silence, I have never regret."
We all know this quote but how strong is this quote in our hearts, lives, and actions. It is easy to tell Arthanious story but not easy to live his life, easy to recite the quote but hard to make it as part of his life.
Therefore, there are words in life that make a person regret, but as I said before there are things people say but cannot retake it. They said it and it is out of their control and will be condemn for it. What is worst is that a person sin and not feel regret at all. What is even harsher than both is a person to sin and not know he has sinned.
Therefore, a person that does not know his sin will keep on doing the same sin not known what is right or wrong. That’s why our apostle Jacob says hard words about the tongue, saying that it can be a poison, with it we praise God and with it we curse people that have the image of God.
There is a danger of cursing people with words. For people are not just humans but they are made with the image of God. So when you curse, you sin against God Himself. In the Bible, any bad words is considered cursing.
So an uncontrolled tongue is fire, poison, death, and uncleanse. Because what comes out of the mouth is what defiles the body.
In the psalms talk about the sin of tongue in a harsh way; saying sinful words are like arrows shooting but worst of all is their mouth is an open tomb.
Therefore, there two different types of people, one you like to talk to and another you feel that you are getting hurt by his words, and you try to always stay alert next to him. Words show what a person is, it shows his character and his heart from inside. Like the Bible say, Out of the Heart speaks the mouth. And again, your language shows who you are.
In the Monastery, a law was giving that during eating or work time, a complete silence and the elder would read from a book (usually paradise of the Fathers) or any spiritual book. This so the mind would be occupied by spiritual growth and that no monk can be insulted from gossip, or lose their spirituality because of harsh words. This is wisdom from the Fathers. This is for Monastery.
But for living our lives; a person should look towards this quote from Father Antony, “Let everyone bless you” This comes either from your actions or from your kind words. Let this be a head quote in our lives.
For the People, get everything that is beneficial from everyone, and for the Oneself, bless but donot curse. Say a kind word but never a hurtful one. Therefore, there are some rules in the conversation that a person should do.
First of all, if you talk, your aim should not be winning the conversation or showing off your knowledge or taking glory from your talk, for all this is false glory.
A person that talks about every topic is wrong. For example, if one talks about politics, he talks about it. Even if he doesnot know about it, he still talks, even if he knows weak info or not guarantee. WE SHOULD NOT ALWAYS TALK IN EVERY TOPIC. But in polite matter we listen when one speak about something we donot know and show them we are listening.
On the other hand, the Bible say if the fool stays quiet, he becomes wise. So if we talk about something we donot know and someone corrects us, we will look like fools but if we stay quiet, we will gain knowledge.
Sometimes we have to say “I do not know” Father Antony praised Abba Joseph when he said “I do not know” When Abba Antony asked the monks about a certain verse, they all said their opinion but Abba Joseph, the oldest among them said, “I donot know” and Abba Antony told him,” Indeed, Abba Joseph has found the way, for he has said: ’I do not know.’”
Pope Sheounda remembers one time during the year 1958 about a guy asking him and three others, questions about life and death. Pope Sheounda came to a point where he said, ”Believe me, the most honest statement is that I do not know,” even though he wrote 2 more pages after that but he still said again I do not know, for all this was an idea but I do not know the truth in it. The question was, does the spirit has a shape? And Pope Sheounda said he doesnot know but from spiritual readings and Church Fathers, one can only give an opinion but it is still not solid.
It is not wrong to say I am not sure, or I can tell you my opinion but it is not one hundred percent right. Some people can not say I donot know, it is heavy on his tongue and think it will bring him down. In fact, you will look down upon if you say follish words, which can damage the truth.
A sin of the tongue is when someone just talks about anything and what is worst is when someone gives fake prove and now is lying. And if someone corrects him, he starts to curse and get angry and lose it. It is better to say I donot know.
Let your silence be more faithful than your words. And let your silence be more than your words and let your Silence show your glory.
Respectful to the conversation, If you talk with someone, donot cut him off. And if you talk with someone, donot try to get the conversation on your side, like donot silent others because you know more. Humble yourself and let others always feel that you are benefiting from them. Even if someone say things you know beforehand, let him say it, as you did not know. Because if you say I know what you going to say, is basically saying stop talking, which is not polite.
Thank everyone for every word you benefit from and if you talking to someone and he is saying wrong words, do embarrass him in front of anyone and donot hurt his feelings. And if you have to correct him, let it be in an indirect way or take him in the corner. Otherwise, people wouldnot talk to you if you always embarrass others.
If the truth is in on the other side, donot be stubborn. But thank the person for saying the right thing.
In the conversation, your aim shouldnot be to win the conversation but to get to the truth. This is why Father Pepemos (Def spelled it wrong) won so many people in his conversation and that’s why he brought many people to the Christian faith from pagans because of his respectful conversation.
If you talk to someone, donot destroy him or bring him down. Because if you do, God will say, from your hands, I ask for his blood.
For Christianity is not a cross we put around our necks or a name we have but a life we must live. A person shows he is Christian by the actions and words one says.
If you speak, be the last to say anything, donot always be the first but let others go infront of you. In some conversation, it be better if you talk to someone individually than in group.
In your conversation, watch the time. The other person might have things to do. If someone is wrong, just donot mind it if no need to. Donot stick to every little point.
In your words, do not talk about one point that doesnot deserve so much time. So donot give a lecture if something only needs one sentence. Talk according to the need of the subject and the available time of the other person.
Talk softly, and kindly.
This is talking about the negative words (Speaking by HH Pope Sheounda), still we have to talk about the positive words. (Speaking 2 by HH Pope Sheounda)
Pray for me
St. Francis of Assisi says:
Preach the gospel at all time, and when necessary use words.
Talking is a talent, and that is why there are preachers and there are those who are to stay silent, remember the story of Moses, he was not a preacher, while Saint Peter with one sermon converted three thousand!
so if you are given this talent and not use it, God will hold it against you... and just like any other talent, if given this talent you have the free will to also misuse for heretical and idle talk! Arius was given the talent of singing and preaching, but used it for the heretical teaching. Also with Preaching and "talking" the church set the heresies of Arius right to the believers!
now we see a few examples of how preaching is good and bad, and there are also situations where silence is good and bad, for example what if all these martyrs who shed their blood, were silent and hadn't proclaimed God's name? even these "spoken" teachings about silence, how would we have known them with out speech?! etc...
in my opinion teaching cannot be reached without silence... which brings us to Balance!
St. Paul before he preached stayed three years in the desert, Jesus before He preached stayed silent in the city before preaching, and also in the desert for forty days... Moses before he led the people to God's "way" he stayed forty years in the desert not known to many people except his wife's family... and so on, there are many examples! Even in creation, God spoke six days, and rested on the seventh day!
we should be like them, we need our silent time, we need to balance from teaching and/or speaking and silence!
I never understood how to hear God in silence, until I tried it... and I ask you to try it also... set aside thirty minutes in one of your days, shut all of your lights, and everything... sit there and tell God to speak to you, and through that silence you will feel the peace of God, through that silence you will start noticing things about yourself that you need to fix for God, through this silence you will understand things and be led to understand many things from the Holy Spirit!
also if I spend all of my time teaching and talking, do you think it would be healthy on my mind? where is the "MY" time... we forget about "MY" too many times... we forget about "MY" salvation... if I preach others, am I going to be saved? or if I stay silent, am I going to be saved? do what will help your salvation!
another thing, if/when you preach, are you talking or is it God talking?! if you are talking... then I'm sorry to say, but do I pity you and this person receiving the teaching... but if God is talking, then how is He talking to you, if you are not giving Him silence to speak to you first?!
this is a long topic, I can keep going, but I though I should bring this post to an end... so why not be more specific to what kind of silence are you talking about?! and what kind of preaching would you want to preach?
neshkor Allah, akhadna el barak!
&
In silence the Holy Spirit Speaks loudly!
God Bless
Bish
www.stnoufer.wordpress.com