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GIRLS' ANSWERS REQUESTED!!
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Comments
Women saints are shown much honour in our Church and we have praises for many other women saints like St. Mary, St. Demiana, St. Marina and St. Rebecca. There are also stories of amazing women in the Synaxarium as well.
We have special feasts for St. Mary and many songs to praise her, she sits at Christ's right hand and our church often asks for her intercession. We love her very much and have named many churches after her and lots of Coptic girls are called Mary, Mirium, Mariam, Mariane, Marianna and Maria after her :).
Our Church often has readings from St. Luke's Gospel which speaks about Jesus' encounter with women and the respect and love He showed them e.g. the adulterous woman, the Samaritan woman, the widow who's son had died, Martha and Mary and St. Elizabeth.
Many of the church fathers speak highly of the women who were with Jesus, they were with Him at the foot of the cross when others had fled, it was the women who woke up early to go to visit the tomb and they were the first to witness the Resurrection.. (There is a saying one of the fathers said about women being equal.. about if God wanted women to be less than men Eve would have been made from Adam's toe, or higher then maybe from his head, but God in His wisdom made us equal by making Eve from Adam's rib ;D)
Even the teachings of the church say that a husband should love his wife like Christ loved the church and that they should lay down their lives for her.. the church asks men to love their wife that much!! So even though we are given different roles, the church teaches that we are equals.
However, sadly in practice sometimes there is some inequality but i reckon that it is mainly cultural stuff (Egyptianness :-\) as opposed to what is really Christian Orthodox. So try and just focus on the Christian stuff, the rest if just due to human faults..
i hope i helped a little. God bless u lots!!
[quote author=jerusalem2 link=topic=9017.msg112438#msg112438 date=1269610011]
Our Church often has readings from St. Luke's Gospel which speaks about Jesus' encounter with women and the respect and love He showed them e.g. the adulterous woman, the Samaritan woman, the widow who's son had died, Martha and Mary and St. Elizabeth.
I listened to this sermon engendering the above and absolutely loved it because it helped me! It might help you too.
http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/sermons/a-day-miracles
Its more effective if you watch the video, because Father Anthony Messeh shows diagrams.
Maybe taking it as though your doing it for God and forgetting about the prejudice side will help? Suffer for Christ ..?
I find it so amazing how different we can be culturally!?
In my part of the world women are definately the more practical. It is because alot of girls are raised by their fathers though! Sad to say that the boys tend to be raised by mothers, grandmothers; because even if they are fortunate enough to have a 'live-in' father, he is too busy working to teach his son the valuable life lessons he needs. It's very perplexing that many fathers are not interested in raising their sons or the mothers will keep sons away from their fathers out of spite! Makes for a very confused society!
Not to get off the point though.....I think that bad cultural habits should not be allowed to infiltrate the perfect doctrines of the Holy Church; then what is the point of it? What is the purpose? I was reading the Great Lent scriptures and something that has stayed in my mind is that God said the sons of Eli....the spoiled rotten priests, are cursed forever, "never to be forgiven"!!! That is a very serious charge! I think the Church, the Orthodox Church especially is the place where bad habits are broken and I think prejudice and sexism are bad habits.
I mean, the men are supposed to be our strength! Treating us as Christ treated the women in His life....as the sermon by Abuna Messeh said....'Christ picked up the sinful woman, healed her and set her on the right path.' The faithful women He praised for their faith and added to their reward.
I like these verses in the Songs of Solomon: 8 & 9 - "We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: What shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for? If she be a wall, we will build upon her a palace of silver : and if she be a door, we will inclose her with boards of cedar."
If only our men honored and respected us like this, whatever walk of life we find ourselves in, helping us to righteousness; not further degrading us and pulling us down!!??!
One of these great days!
Almighty God please help us to overcome adversity and live in Faith, Hope and Love!!!
What man is pulling you down!!!?
Exactly, i still fail to see what exactly is people are complaining about here. What "cultural" stuff? i find this sexist, its not good to make generalizations like this
well, first of all you guys need to calm down and sodr2 i can see where you are going with this but you are doing it in an offensive way. I am no better than any of you, but we all need to calm down. If we just insult people's parents and mock people we aren't going anywhere. And back to subject, i don't think that the church is sexist in any way. I see how the women can think that because they pretty much don't do anything like the guys, but if we just think about it we realize it doesn't matter. Like being a deacon, something the girls are forbidden to be, no matter how good your voice is and how many hymns you know this will not get you into heaven. What really matters is what gets us to our eternal goal, not what we are allowed to do in church and what we aren't. I am a deacon in church and this is my point of view. Btw sorry for the long post.
Pray for me
Sorry i really don't understand the problem.
Women have a diverse role in the church some of which men cannot do. Just because men serve in the altar or read during the mass does not mean that the church is sexist or our culture is either.
If you would like to elaborate a bit more mabey i am misunderstanding your concern.
thanks
ppfm
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
And also:
"Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. (Colossians 3:9-11)
[quote author=yousiegtennis link=topic=9017.msg112423#msg112423 date=1269575929]
Girls...if you have ever experienced this, please help me out! How did you overcome feeling like a victim of prejudice and sexism in church? I am not trying to attack church teachings or anything, it's just something that I am struggling with. Please help and thank you!!
Although I'm a guy, and so can't directly empathize with you here, I can imagine where you're coming from: the clergy are all male, and it seems that the job of women is to clean up and tidy and cook etc. etc. But dear sister, you mustn't confuse two things here: the way the Church's hierarchy is set up and the Egyptian culture that we as second-generation Copts are living in (I'm making an assumption here, forgive me if I'm wrong).
[quote author=yousiegtennis link=topic=9017.msg112895#msg112895 date=1270609969]i said the church is sexist because we have to wear the head thing
This has a scriptural basis:
"2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her[a] for a covering. 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God." (1 Corinthians 11:2-16). You are absolutely correct and I agree with you here: according to the correct Church tradition, the only people permitted to enter the Altar are those of the priesthood (priests, bishops, pope), deacons (and I mean those who have reached the actual rank of [coptic]diakon[/coptic] or [coptic]ar,idiakon[/coptic]) and Orthodox kings anointed with the Holy Myron. Ordinary men and deacons below the rank of [coptic]diakon[/coptic] should not be allowed to enter. But consider the resources: there are no Orthodox kings anointed with the Holy Myron today, there are very very few deacons who have attained the rank of [coptic]diakon [/coptic]or higher - it would simply be impossibly impractical for the priest to have to manage the Altar on his own (cleaning, fetching the censer, all of the rites). Again, there is a scriptural basis: "And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence." (1 Timothy 2:12).
There is in fact a rank of Reader in the Church "[coptic]i`anagnwctyc[/coptic]" - it is not for any "deacon" to read the from the pulpit and preach to the people, only those of the rank. This is because the Reader should practise what he reads, and should understand the meaning, speaking without hypocrisy. Again the resources issue comes in here again - but as this is a lower rank, there are usually enough people to read who are actually Readers (e.g. we are quite a small church, but have 4 of us of this rank). Now I know this is true, and there is a reason for this that I don't actually know. I suspect it is much the same as the prohibition of any sort of activity after the Mass that may cause the loss of the Body and Blood of Christ from your system (e.g. swimming, spitting): as the woman know she will bleed that day, then she should not take of the Holy Communion? But then, it could be argued that a person who gets shot and bleeds to death after the Holy Communion is guilty of the same thing... or perhaps not as he didn't know in advance that he would bleed? I'm not sure on this one. I'll leave it to someone more knowledgeable to answer. Another reference: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission." (1 Timothy 2:11) and also: "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Now please do not misunderstand this as meaning that in the Church women are less equal before men in the eyes of God. With the first verse at the beginning of my post, we know that all are equal before God, there is no discrimination. I remember hearing H.G. Bishop Paula talk about this, off the top of my head it was something along the lines of: The relationship between husband and wife (and so man and woman) is similar to the relationship between Christ and the Father in a way. They are both equal, as Christ IS God and God is Christ - same with woman and man, for woman was created from man, they are the same flesh ("This is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh"). Christ despite his equality with the Father obeyed the Father's will until death. Woman also is charged to submit to man, not because she is inferior, but because only one set of hands must steer the boat (in reference to the household). It all comes down to different occupations that God has given us. Just as man is called to the clergy, women are called to the service within the church. Both are jobs that need doing, both are a calling to holiness. i know and have seen many couples like this, it's not just my family, otherwise i wouldn't be saying it (and i've seen the sexism reach worse levels). yes, of course they went to school, my point was that they do so much all at the same time...i'm not only describing poor people, they are rich, middle class, and poor, all alike. i thought that it was only my family...sadly, it's not, i've heard that statement more than enough from plenty of people. why don't you try doing all the house chores and being a full time student at a college and see how it feels.
This is simply the structure of Egyptian society. I cannot really say much here except that God gives us all rewards according to our pains for him. A woman or man who works hard at their job, raises their children in the fear of God, continually struggles with sin will be rewarded by God. God is just - although it may seem unfair now, it'll be worth it in the end.
I would check out this article by H.G. Bishop Angelos: http://www.coptichymns.net/module-library-viewpub-tid-1-pid-544.html
Hope that was of some value please pray for me
joe
if you really have thoughts like this, well, just know it's from the devil of course. And try to think of the things women actually do. Like you know the aghapy meal right, when there is a feast or a special occasion and after church there is a FEAST. That aghaby meal is actually part of the church rites. Now think about our meal if the women did not cook it. I myself am a guy, but sorry to say, if the guys had to cook the aghaby meal i wouldn't go back to church, i would be in the doctor's office. That is only one of the many things. There are some things actually that you guys do that we can't. I can't really think of any.
Sorry for the long post, just one more thing. We have just celebrated the Resurrection feast. And guess who was the first person to have Jesus appear to them. Well, it was Mary Magdalene. She by the way is a woman. Why would Jesus go to a woman first, well, the fathers of the church say that because Eve fell into satan's trap and ate the fruit and caused sin to come into the world, the woman will bring back life by telling everybody about the Lord's resurrection. It went something like that.
Hopefully i helped,
Pray that we will learn one day to control our thoughts
... just thought I should remind you ;D
and sodr2 i can see where you are going with this but you are doing it in an offensive way.
she's the one claiming men are nothing but a bunch of lazy slobs who dont do chores or go to college, and think men ignore the rules in church
srry to bump this so late, lol <<<<<<<________<<<<<<<
I'm a pharmacy student currently living alone...try not to make assumptions like this next time
As I see it, the husbands are the ones taking out the garbage, fixing the broken pipe in the bathroom and make trips to the local garage to fix the car...whereas you're probably complaining about women doing chores such as taking the kids to school, fixing a meal and buying a light bulb from the local DIY shop....so you know what, i'll be complaining that it is women who are the lazy gender just in families alone...dont even get me started on what women have "contributed" to society
"men are lazy" give me a break
and btw, IMO, i wouldnt judge anyone even if they appear to have broken any rules...you should focus on your own faults instead of others
somewhere in the bible it says "Before you take the spec out of your brothers eye take the plank out of your own"
THERE IS NO SEXISM OR PREJUDICE IN THE CHURCH.
If one cannot appreciate their role in the Church, they will presume their failed understanding as a fault in the Church.
lol i love you more!!!! but hey, we just learned this in biopsych...you know that the default sex is female ;D
how awesome is that?? meaning that everyone starts out as a girl and then if the SRY gene is present, you become male...that's so cool.
hahaha I know!
Short story(irrelevant):I was with Somebody- male (tell you who later) got into a conversation with a begging homeless guy and stated that fact, the homeless man started yelling "mannn you're gonna go to hell!!" and kept repeating it as he took his bike and riding away looking back at us. haha funny thing is he was quoting the Bible earlier in the conversation, while he being a muslim. The homeless man thought he was homosexual. ;D
that post hurt me more, lol
okie dokie, i will stop replying right after this one,
I will pray for you guys
but if you don't pray for me, well, just hope you do
[quote author=geomike link=topic=9017.msg113216#msg113216 date=1271199935]
i think we have went away from the subject completely, we aren't how men are slobs or who is what, she asked a simple question, answer it or don't post
if you read the first page, the OP went on talking about that topic, and plus all these women started coming out saying absurd things like, and i quote "the church is sexist" and "men degrade and put us down"
and i dont know what gave anyone the idea that i was offended or angry. this will be my last post in this thread anyways. some thoughts (not regarding the OP's original question, though i'd love to have helped): personal experiences doesn't count as evidence for anything (eg. guess what? this one guy didn't help us move, therefore all men are unable to "carry tables, couches, beds, etc.")...i never said women were lazy in general...saying men know nothing about cleaning or taking care of kids either stems from ignorance or dishonesty (though i assume you were being sincere, which is disappointing) this is a bit shocking. forgive me if im misunderstanding you, but to me this sounds like saying "he broke the rules! that's not fair, i want to break the rules!" please dont think that it's unfair you're not "allowed to break the rules" 1- be happy that you are following the rules, 2- ignore how everyone else behaves in church, men and women, you're in Church alone for God.
[humorous friendly tone] PS -- When people have to jump start their car everyday, they usually go in for a permanent fix, unlike you who jump starts your car EVERYDAY ONLY to prove that you knew how to jump start cars. [/humorous friendly tone]
OH! and srry for this long reply, but one last thing... im not sure what this means really...can i have a specific situation where you had to "submit to a man"?
You're truely, sodr2.