do you mean like Catholics or Baptists who are killed for their faith in Christ?
in this case, though the descision is ultimately up to God, i would venture "it is possible, if not likely".
but a person who dies for their non-Christian faith, such as a Buddhist monk or a Hindu, the issue is different. this person was estranged from God in Christ, and however devoted they were to their beliefs, those beliefs were not God-honoring, or true.
[quote author=jibrahim23 link=topic=9078.msg112887#msg112887 date=1270603329] No i mean like say you were a muslim and you got shot protecting a priest would God make an acception? [coptic]Je Nai Nan[/coptic]
Good question... there's probably an answer, (im not sure myself), but i just leave it in God's hands...remember there is outward religion and inward religion...if a muslim laid down his life for the sake of someone (greatest love), then I'm sure God will look to the heart of the person and judge accordingly...i still dont know though but what i do know is that exceptions do exist...perhaps the answer is that only God can judge
i know most christians give muslims a bad rep, based on the actions of MANY of their radical fellows but, we can't make such a generalization.
to be honest, and based on my first hand experiences; i trust my life in the hands of some of my muslim friends over the hands of my fellow christians.
but gettin back to the point lol... i believe they'd be considered as martyrs of some sort [sorta like the children of bethlehem]
Guys, not to offend anyone but what does this question have to do with any one of us? Why should it concern us? I feel like we are going through cycles like these on this forum because we wonder about things that will not help us grow spiritually at all.
All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty. Proverbs 14:23.
This verse tells us that idle talk like this will lead us to losing our spirituality. We must be cautious and laboring to find Christ in all we do. It's when we talk in this manner about topics that, as mentioned above "really hard and well thought out question" that we begin to lose our peace and spirit in the Lord, even if we don't mean to.
Sorry if I sound harsh, and I don't mean to focus on this specific question, it's just this forum as we all know is a great spiritual benefit for many of us. Strive for your relationship with Christ alone as it says in the verse to always be hard working. Forgive me, and pray for me!
I completely agree with Tishori's post. We must think of what benefit will a new thread bring to everyone in the community (including the person posting, of course).
I think its wonderful, how people can come here and ask the religion-based questions that are on their minds. Personally, these are the kinda questions that I'd want to know the answers to [just so I can know a little more about my religion.] Odds are these seemingly 'trivial' questions would never be discussed openly in a church [because lets face it, who would confront a priest with them], and so i believe one of the great things about this forum is the fact that it gives answers to questions that we wouldn't ask else where.
i don't think it was a trivial question. coz it's about where people go when they die. however, in the Bible, the things that are important are faith in Jesus Christ who is God, the things we do in our lives (the narrow path) and repentance from the heart. if someone from another religion or an atheist (they are both equally mistaken) jumps in front of the priest to save him as part of an act of true repentance, maybe they will be saved. but i think (and there are no official church answers to back me up as far as i have seen) that if that person despises the death and resurrection of Jesus and jumps in front of a priest because his or her religion teaches that a big good deed like this can cancel out their bad deeds, then they are not saved. so it matters if there is any repentance at the time. of course this is something we can't know without looking into someone's heart.
so i can't really answer the question 'will that person be saved?' but what our Christian faith does teach us is that it is our attitudes that matter more than our deeds. saint paul says in 1 corinthians 13, that if i give my body to be burnt (i.e. some sort of martyr) but have not love, i gain nothing. Jesus said, 'if you love me, you will obey my commandments'. so, love and faith will lead to repentance, which will lead to a changed life, and if God gives you the privilege to be martyred, that is a bonus.
[quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=9078.msg113364#msg113364 date=1271394330] I think its wonderful, how people can come here and ask the religion-based questions that are on their minds. Personally, these are the kinda questions that I'd want to know the answers to [just so I can know a little more about my religion.] Odds are these seemingly 'trivial' questions would never be discussed openly in a church [because lets face it, who would confront a priest with them], and so i believe one of the great things about this forum is the fact that it gives answers to questions that we wouldn't ask else where.
I agree that we can talk about things that aren't usually brought up in a public setting, or even in private with our FOC's, but for a question like this, how are we supposed to know the answer. You said that the odd "trivial" questions are fun to discuss, but who are we to decide on a question like this, because none of it would be Bible based, since the heart and soul of the Bible focuses on nothing like this. This random topic along with many others aren't talked about because they neither concern us, nor can we answer them using any sources. The Bible nor the Church Father have no concern for topics such as these. We have to grow spiritually and strive for deeper fruit from the word of God.
I think it's important to remember what St. Paul says to the Corinthians:
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
So again, not to be harsh but we have to strive to become mature in spirit and not be concerned with something God Himself obviously doesn't want us thinking about, or else he would have made it clear to us! Remember:
"I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you."
The Logos of God the Father has told us Himself that he hasn't hidden anything from us, so I think it is important to focus on what He's taught us and to stay away from what Christ saw as unimportant for our soul's benefit.
hey, this thread reminds me, what is the Coptic Orthodox doctrine of salvation?
meaning, does the Coptic Church have a doctrine similar to "non-Christians may also be saved by God's mercy" or "all will be eventually saved through Christ"?
i know so many dear, kind, loving people. they do not know Christ and do not obey Him, but they do their best, treat others kindly, and appreciate the life that God has given them. on the other hand, we know the only way to be reconciled to God is through Christ, and that only in Christ can we see, know, and obey God personally.
i know so many dear, kind, loving people. they do not know Christ and do not obey Him, but they do their best, treat others kindly, and appreciate the life that God has given them. on the other hand, we know the only way to be reconciled to God is through Christ, and that only in Christ can we see, know, and obey God personally.
I agree that we can talk about things that aren't usually brought up in a public setting, or even in private with our FOC's, but for a question like this, how are we supposed to know the answer. You said that the odd "trivial" questions are fun to discuss, but who are we to decide on a question like this, because none of it would be Bible based, since the heart and soul of the Bible focuses on nothing like this.
The Logos of God the Father has told us Himself that he hasn't hidden anything from us, so I think it is important to focus on what He's taught us and to stay away from what Christ saw as unimportant for our soul's benefit.
Pray for me.
i disagree...spiritual based questions (like this one) should be answerable by the church...it has the gift of the Holy Spirit to assist her in her guidance of the faithful...are you saying that any topic outside of "what benefits our soul" to be unimportant? How is the Holy Trinity one...should we stay away from that question because it doesn't benefit our soul?
The study of the Holy Trinity is of course benefit to your spiritual life! How can you possibly worship what you do not know? All the attributes and working together of the persons of the trinity. Knowing these things will show you a more wondrous and glorious God than you could ever imagine! Just because a topic can be studied analytically, doesn't mean it is not for benefit. We cannot say such a deep topic such as the Trinity is not for our spiritual benefit.
That is besides the point. How is this a spiritually based question? Some random scenario that doesn't concern us at all? Forget that it doesn't benefit us, what does it have to do with us? The fact that we are curious about things not for our minds will affect us negatively spiritually, whether it is apparent or not. And why would the this be a question for the church? I'm almost positive if anyone were to ask their father of confession this question, they would simply tell you not to worry about it. Not out of ignorance, but out of guidance for your own well being. Idle talk like this is useless.
On the other hand the post made by Gracia would be very helpful. It is important that we know our faith, through the guidance of the Word and Spirit of God and the wisdom of the church Fathers.
I never meant for an argument of any sort, I just wanted to point out there is no reason for idle talk on these forums. Pray for my weakness.
[quote author=sodr2 link=topic=9078.msg113396#msg113396 date=1271439415]what do you mean they do not "know" him?
meaning, they do not know Christ for who He is- Lord, Saviour, King, Redeemer, God, and Ransom - in their own lives. they may be aware that there is a Jesus, or that Christians believe in Him, but there's no personal connection for them.
this is my brief answer (maybe oversimplified..) we don't believe in salvation except through Jesus Christ our Saviour and His church, but we believe that God can reveal things directly to people and people can have a saving experience even at the last moment, like the theif of the cross to whom Jesus said 'today you will be with me in paradise'. we do not believe all people on earth will eventually be saved (unless they all believe and are baptised).
The theif is not a good example as last minute, there is no point where someone is saved, salvation is a life long struggle. People have said well, the theif wasn't baptized didn't confess and such like that. However this is simply not true, the theif was baptized. What is baptism, death burial and resurrection with Christ. The theif literally died with Christ. He confessed he was worthy of death and repented. He had faith, by asking Christ to remember him in His kingdom. So when we say, he stole the kingdom, it was not something so simple but there where many aspects of this that allowed him to enter paradise.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=9078.msg113601#msg113601 date=1271796372] this is my brief answer (maybe oversimplified..) we don't believe in salvation except through Jesus Christ our Saviour and His church, but we believe that God can reveal things directly to people and people can have a saving experience even at the last moment, like the theif of the cross to whom Jesus said 'today you will be with me in paradise'. we do not believe all people on earth will eventually be saved (unless they all believe and are baptised).
Mabsoota, thank you. i have heard that some theologians essentially outside of Orthodoxy (like Theodore of Mopsuestia) taught eventual universal salvation, but wasn't sure if that was a Coptic belief, as well.
is there anything in the Coptic Church akin to the Catholic idea of Purgatory, or is that a wholly non-Orthodox concept?
again, many thanks for your patient and thorough answers!
[quote author=Gracia link=topic=9078.msg113769#msg113769 date=1272212853]is there anything in the Coptic Church akin to the Catholic idea of Purgatory, or is that a wholly non-Orthodox concept?
There is nothing akin to Purgatory in the Coptic Church. I have never heard or encountered such an idea, and am certain it isn't Orthodox. There is Heaven and there is Hell.
we don't consider theodore of mopsuestia to be an orthodox church father. his teachings were taken up by the nestorian church (really long story) who basically fell into heresy for believing that the divine and human natures of Jesus Christ were somehow separated. maybe he said some good stuff as well, i don't know about that, but we generally (i.e all orthodox and catholic) don't follow his writings.
as for purgatory, joe is right, we don't believe in it, but we do believe that the soul may 'escape as if from fire' (1 corinthians 3: 11-15) if someone believes but does not build well on the foundation Jesus has laid. there are many orthodox interpretations of this, some suggesting that the path of the soul towards heaven is not straightforward, but we do not go so far as to teach purgatory.
from my own study on doctrine, the catholic and orthodox doctrines are otherwise quite similar. the other main difference is that we believe the virgin saint mary, although the most loved of all the saints was a normal jewish young woman, not someone who had a special conception without the human tendancy to sin. we also don't think that everything our pope says when teaching Christian doctrine is guaranteed to be without fault. having said that, i am sure he ever said anything dodgy, but we don't put that pressure on him to be superhuman.
ok thank you, that does help! essentially it's heaven or hell, nothing in between. i can see why Catholics would want to believe in Purgatory, but then if it's not true, then it isn't a real place.
Comments
in this case, though the descision is ultimately up to God, i would venture "it is possible, if not likely".
but a person who dies for their non-Christian faith, such as a Buddhist monk or a Hindu, the issue is different. this person was estranged from God in Christ, and however devoted they were to their beliefs, those beliefs were not God-honoring, or true.
No i mean like say you were a muslim and you got shot protecting a priest would God make an acception?
[coptic]Je Nai Nan[/coptic]
Good question... there's probably an answer, (im not sure myself), but i just leave it in God's hands...remember there is outward religion and inward religion...if a muslim laid down his life for the sake of someone (greatest love), then I'm sure God will look to the heart of the person and judge accordingly...i still dont know though but what i do know is that exceptions do exist...perhaps the answer is that only God can judge
Looks like we will have to bring out the BIG GUNS(Fr. Peter).
lol
Pray for me
In Christ
Theophilus
to be honest, and based on my first hand experiences; i trust my life in the hands of some of my muslim friends over the hands of my fellow christians.
but gettin back to the point lol... i believe they'd be considered as martyrs of some sort [sorta like the children of bethlehem]
All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty. Proverbs 14:23.
This verse tells us that idle talk like this will lead us to losing our spirituality. We must be cautious and laboring to find Christ in all we do. It's when we talk in this manner about topics that, as mentioned above "really hard and well thought out question" that we begin to lose our peace and spirit in the Lord, even if we don't mean to.
Sorry if I sound harsh, and I don't mean to focus on this specific question, it's just this forum as we all know is a great spiritual benefit for many of us. Strive for your relationship with Christ alone as it says in the verse to always be hard working. Forgive me, and pray for me!
however, in the Bible, the things that are important are faith in Jesus Christ who is God, the things we do in our lives (the narrow path) and repentance from the heart.
if someone from another religion or an atheist (they are both equally mistaken) jumps in front of the priest to save him as part of an act of true repentance, maybe they will be saved. but i think (and there are no official church answers to back me up as far as i have seen) that if that person despises the death and resurrection of Jesus and jumps in front of a priest because his or her religion teaches that a big good deed like this can cancel out their bad deeds, then they are not saved.
so it matters if there is any repentance at the time.
of course this is something we can't know without looking into someone's heart.
so i can't really answer the question 'will that person be saved?'
but what our Christian faith does teach us is that it is our attitudes that matter more than our deeds. saint paul says in 1 corinthians 13, that if i give my body to be burnt (i.e. some sort of martyr) but have not love, i gain nothing.
Jesus said, 'if you love me, you will obey my commandments'.
so, love and faith will lead to repentance, which will lead to a changed life, and if God gives you the privilege to be martyred, that is a bonus.
I think its wonderful, how people can come here and ask the religion-based questions that are on their minds. Personally, these are the kinda questions that I'd want to know the answers to [just so I can know a little more about my religion.] Odds are these seemingly 'trivial' questions would never be discussed openly in a church [because lets face it, who would confront a priest with them], and so i believe one of the great things about this forum is the fact that it gives answers to questions that we wouldn't ask else where.
I agree that we can talk about things that aren't usually brought up in a public setting, or even in private with our FOC's, but for a question like this, how are we supposed to know the answer. You said that the odd "trivial" questions are fun to discuss, but who are we to decide on a question like this, because none of it would be Bible based, since the heart and soul of the Bible focuses on nothing like this. This random topic along with many others aren't talked about because they neither concern us, nor can we answer them using any sources. The Bible nor the Church Father have no concern for topics such as these. We have to grow spiritually and strive for deeper fruit from the word of God.
I think it's important to remember what St. Paul says to the Corinthians:
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
So again, not to be harsh but we have to strive to become mature in spirit and not be concerned with something God Himself obviously doesn't want us thinking about, or else he would have made it clear to us! Remember:
"I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you."
The Logos of God the Father has told us Himself that he hasn't hidden anything from us, so I think it is important to focus on what He's taught us and to stay away from what Christ saw as unimportant for our soul's benefit.
Pray for me.
meaning, does the Coptic Church have a doctrine similar to "non-Christians may also be saved by God's mercy" or "all will be eventually saved through Christ"?
i know so many dear, kind, loving people. they do not know Christ and do not obey Him, but they do their best, treat others kindly, and appreciate the life that God has given them. on the other hand, we know the only way to be reconciled to God is through Christ, and that only in Christ can we see, know, and obey God personally.
what does the Church say on these things?
i know so many dear, kind, loving people. they do not know Christ and do not obey Him, but they do their best, treat others kindly, and appreciate the life that God has given them. on the other hand, we know the only way to be reconciled to God is through Christ, and that only in Christ can we see, know, and obey God personally.
what does the Church say on these things?
what do you mean they do not "know" him?
I agree that we can talk about things that aren't usually brought up in a public setting, or even in private with our FOC's, but for a question like this, how are we supposed to know the answer. You said that the odd "trivial" questions are fun to discuss, but who are we to decide on a question like this, because none of it would be Bible based, since the heart and soul of the Bible focuses on nothing like this.
The Logos of God the Father has told us Himself that he hasn't hidden anything from us, so I think it is important to focus on what He's taught us and to stay away from what Christ saw as unimportant for our soul's benefit.
Pray for me.
i disagree...spiritual based questions (like this one) should be answerable by the church...it has the gift of the Holy Spirit to assist her in her guidance of the faithful...are you saying that any topic outside of "what benefits our soul" to be unimportant? How is the Holy Trinity one...should we stay away from that question because it doesn't benefit our soul?
That is besides the point. How is this a spiritually based question? Some random scenario that doesn't concern us at all? Forget that it doesn't benefit us, what does it have to do with us? The fact that we are curious about things not for our minds will affect us negatively spiritually, whether it is apparent or not. And why would the this be a question for the church? I'm almost positive if anyone were to ask their father of confession this question, they would simply tell you not to worry about it. Not out of ignorance, but out of guidance for your own well being. Idle talk like this is useless.
On the other hand the post made by Gracia would be very helpful. It is important that we know our faith, through the guidance of the Word and Spirit of God and the wisdom of the church Fathers.
I never meant for an argument of any sort, I just wanted to point out there is no reason for idle talk on these forums. Pray for my weakness.
meaning, they do not know Christ for who He is- Lord, Saviour, King, Redeemer, God, and Ransom - in their own lives. they may be aware that there is a Jesus, or that Christians believe in Him, but there's no personal connection for them.
we don't believe in salvation except through Jesus Christ our Saviour and His church, but we believe that God can reveal things directly to people and people can have a saving experience even at the last moment, like the theif of the cross to whom Jesus said 'today you will be with me in paradise'. we do not believe all people on earth will eventually be saved (unless they all believe and are baptised).
yes it's important to stress salvation is a lifelong process :)
this is my brief answer (maybe oversimplified..)
we don't believe in salvation except through Jesus Christ our Saviour and His church, but we believe that God can reveal things directly to people and people can have a saving experience even at the last moment, like the theif of the cross to whom Jesus said 'today you will be with me in paradise'. we do not believe all people on earth will eventually be saved (unless they all believe and are baptised).
Mabsoota, thank you. i have heard that some theologians essentially outside of Orthodoxy (like Theodore of Mopsuestia) taught eventual universal salvation, but wasn't sure if that was a Coptic belief, as well.
is there anything in the Coptic Church akin to the Catholic idea of Purgatory, or is that a wholly non-Orthodox concept?
again, many thanks for your patient and thorough answers!
There is nothing akin to Purgatory in the Coptic Church. I have never heard or encountered such an idea, and am certain it isn't Orthodox. There is Heaven and there is Hell.
pray for me
joe
as for purgatory, joe is right, we don't believe in it, but we do believe that the soul may 'escape as if from fire' (1 corinthians 3: 11-15) if someone believes but does not build well on the foundation Jesus has laid. there are many orthodox interpretations of this, some suggesting that the path of the soul towards heaven is not straightforward, but we do not go so far as to teach purgatory.
from my own study on doctrine, the catholic and orthodox doctrines are otherwise quite similar. the other main difference is that we believe the virgin saint mary, although the most loved of all the saints was a normal jewish young woman, not someone who had a special conception without the human tendancy to sin. we also don't think that everything our pope says when teaching Christian doctrine is guaranteed to be without fault. having said that, i am sure he ever said anything dodgy, but we don't put that pressure on him to be superhuman.