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Express Mass? Are you being serious??
Hey,
I don't know if this only happens at one church or not but sometimes the priest says things quickly in the liturgy and tells the deacons to speed things up all because he wants to finish at a certain time. Personally, it doesn't feel spiritual and sometimes things are skipped, like the hitenis for example.
People at church jokingly call it "express mass" but I cringe at that phrase because it takes the spirituality out of it because it is the BLOOD AND BODY OF THE LORD JESUS: THE KING OF KINGS at the heart of all this. Therefore there must be love, respect and fear. When an abouna prays things quickly, there is room for mishearing by the congregation and lack of deep spiritual reflection (and I speak from experience).
My question is why is this happening? Where else is this happening? How do you deal with it if it is happening to you?
I don't know if this only happens at one church or not but sometimes the priest says things quickly in the liturgy and tells the deacons to speed things up all because he wants to finish at a certain time. Personally, it doesn't feel spiritual and sometimes things are skipped, like the hitenis for example.
People at church jokingly call it "express mass" but I cringe at that phrase because it takes the spirituality out of it because it is the BLOOD AND BODY OF THE LORD JESUS: THE KING OF KINGS at the heart of all this. Therefore there must be love, respect and fear. When an abouna prays things quickly, there is room for mishearing by the congregation and lack of deep spiritual reflection (and I speak from experience).
My question is why is this happening? Where else is this happening? How do you deal with it if it is happening to you?
Comments
Priests these days forgive me, have totally lost the plot, they think if they make the mass shorter it will be more attractive to the youth, well hello it doesnt. If anything it takes away from the mass.
People will flock to a place where they benefit, and express masses ridicule God, and make no one benefit.
Its time priests pray the mass outve love not a duty! They aint employed by man , theyre employed by God and eventually theyll answer to him.
Sorry if i sounded harsh but the actions of many clergy recently is very distressing!
Bish
www.stnoufer.wordpress.com
The Mysteries are themselves despite of of saying the hetins or not. the hymns are for us but they are not necessary in this case. Everywhere.... nothing you can do about....if it is wrong as much as you say, it wouldn't be happening everywhere.
you don't like...that's fine...you just go to the long liturgy that you'd want and enjoy. it's that simple.
One story. M Ibrahim El-gohari, one of the great arkhons of the church a couple of centuries ago; he had a high position in the government. he was in a liturgy once and the priest was spending more time in prayer. He sent a deacon inside to tell the priest speed up things a little because there are people where who have jobs to go to. The priest said, NO. So M Ibrahim just got out and latter built a church, with the permission of the Pope of course, and made sure that there is an early fast liturgy for those who have jobs, especially on Sundays where sunday is NOT an official off day in government jobs.
I don't mean to attack your post in any way, but this can result in a sin of anger/disagreement with a priest, and you can possibly (eventually) hold a grudge against him because he's not "holy" or respecting God.
If you had a strong relationship with God, you would actually WANT the liturgy to be faster.. would you rather wait 4 hours before meeting Christ, or an hour or two?! Hurry up, I want Christ in me! I'm not saying all liturgies should be fast. There are certain orders in church, and they should be followed according to the correct rites, but sometimes priests get really excited for communion! Someone asked Abouna Bishoy Kamel once whether he enjoyed long or short liturgies. His response was "We wait the entire liturgy to partake of the Body and Blood of Christ, why would I want to wait longer to meet him?"
If you're not satisfied with your church, then either attend a different one or pray that God grants you His wisdom to not see the negatives and focus on our main goal in life.
Christ IS risen!
Pray for me.
However, like I said I really believe that there needs to be a balance. If the liturgy is rushed because people are too lazy to spend the time in church or for other insignificant reasons, then you have a problem.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=9092.msg113032#msg113032 date=1270827423]
If you had a strong relationship with God, you would actually WANT the liturgy to be faster.. would you rather wait 4 hours before meeting Christ, or an hour or two?! Hurry up, I want Christ in me! I'm not saying all liturgies should be fast. There are certain orders in church, and they should be followed according to the correct rites, but sometimes priests get really excited for communion! Someone asked Abouna Bishoy Kamel once whether he enjoyed long or short liturgies. His response was "We wait the entire liturgy to partake of the Body and Blood of Christ, why would I want to wait longer to meet him?"
I'm very sceptical of things like this. We have to remember that the liturgy is used to PREPARE ourselves for the sacrament that we receive at the end of it. Abouna Bishoy was a very holy man and was in a constant state of preparation to receive Christ. But what about a sinner like myself? I can't say that I'm in that constant state of preparation, so I need the vespers prayers, tasbeha, confession etc. to prepare myself properly. The body and blood isn't something to be taken lightly and we should ALWAYS prepare ourselves as best as we can.
Pray that God helps us find the balance. Whether the liturgy is long or short, we should always seek to be prepared for it and benefit from it as much as possible.
Matthew
A family friend who is a priest, was known for taking an 'eternity' to pray his mass, to the point that his congregation complained and begged him to speed up. So that Sunday he zipped through the mass, and as he was dispensing the water saying "Oh angel of this sacrifice..." he saw an angel speed up through the roof, as if it was running away.
I believe that this event didn't void his mass, it just pointed out that he altered it because he put people instead of God first. I know that monks in the monasteries finish their masses, rather quickly [but that's there norm]. I don't believe that takes away from it's holiness?
Hey,
I don't know if this only happens at one church or not but sometimes the priest says things quickly in the liturgy and tells the deacons to speed things up all because he wants to finish at a certain time. Personally, it doesn't feel spiritual and sometimes things are skipped, like the hitenis for example.
People at church jokingly call it "express mass" but I cringe at that phrase because it takes the spirituality out of it because it is the BLOOD AND BODY OF THE LORD JESUS: THE KING OF KINGS at the heart of all this. Therefore there must be love, respect and fear. When an abouna prays things quickly, there is room for mishearing by the congregation and lack of deep spiritual reflection (and I speak from experience).
My question is why is this happening? Where else is this happening? How do you deal with it if it is happening to you?
this bothers me sooo much. it happens in my church all of the time. I ask myself, "how do we put a time on God. We are barley at church and the only time we are, we have to speed it up" Sometimes I even say that we'd might as well not have the liturgy if we are going to say it just get it done. it makes no sense to me. if the priest has something to do after liturgy, he should have known better and scheduled better. that is no excuse for going quickly.
this bothers me sooo much. it happens in my church all of the time. I ask myself, "how do we put a time on God. We are barley at church and the only time we are, we have to speed it up" Sometimes I even say that we'd might as well not have the liturgy if we are going to say it just get it done. it makes no sense to me. if the priest has something to do after liturgy, he should have known better and scheduled better. that is no excuse for going quickly.
you say there is no excuse for going quickly i can say there no excuse for taking forever either. Using spirituality argument is not gonna work because it's never quantity in our church but quality.
As i said, there are reasons for everything we do.....don't just through out statements that can easily be falsified.
Well, we should never forget that the fathers priests have other obligations outside the church building, like visiting the sick, the imprisoned,adminstering Holy Communion to those who are terminally ill and can not attend church,minister those drifting away from faith, guide the elderly and frail, the widowed and orphaned,serve the poor and needy, many many things..It takes great dedication and love of God to serve as a priest.Thus,there is alaways valid reason as to why the liturgy is sometimes fast.
1. Hard to stay focused for so many hours (that's why a lot of people go late).
2. Children can't sit still and start running around and misbehaving.
3. Church becomes gossip ground where everyone is looking at each other and some even start talking and socializing while mass is going on.
4. People have to take frequent bathroom breaks going in and out of church causing distraction to others.
etc.
Having a shorter mass does not mean that I don't have time for God. As a Christian God should be with me all day long and not just when I am at Church.
Thanks all for your views on this. A normal litugy at my church would take 3 hours, from 8am-11am, with nothing skipped and everything said at an appropriate speed.
In reply to Minagir and TITL, who mentioned Pope Kyrillos and Father Pishoy Kamel: What I can say is that everyone is at a different spiritual level and some need more time to prepare in order to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist, after a quick mass, I barely feel prepared because clearly I am not at the spiritual level of these saints. For them it is about meeting God quicker for me its about taking time to be ready to recieve the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus.
I'll give an example: in the liturgy when abouna says "Lift up your hearts" the reply "Our hearts are with the Lord" normally would take 10 seconds, just enough to completely empty my brain of the world's thoughts or where I parked the car and focus on God only. For a saint, they indeed need <1 second because they are constantly in that state.
TITL, I was actually speaking about myself. Abouna’s quick way (although it might be valid for his spirituality), it’s not valid for my spirituality and affects me (the one at the lower spiritual level) and doesn’t help me to prepare because out of experience I speak this: I don’t feel I am loving, respecting and fearing as well as I should because I am mishearing what is prayed and ultimately not focusing on God. Please know that I never criticized anyone, just overly zealous about my spirituality and preparation to recieve the King of kings because I know what its like to live without the Eucharist. I started going to church at the age of 16 because of family issues and it was nothing in my control until I was old enough to make a decision and carry it out by myself to come to church. God is the only judge of our hearts. All I know is that I need more time to prepare to receive Holy Communion and benefit, as Matthew put it because I am not in that constant state of preparation of holy people like monks in the monastery.
Minagir, in our church there is a quick mass on Saturday and I avoided that but it seems that Sunday liturgy’s is kind of becoming the same thing. So minagir, there are opportunities for people on Saturday to come and have a quick mass from 5am- 7am, so there is no reason that this would be transferred to Sunday also.
Gregory the Sinner, please tell me where I can find the priest who takes ‘eternity’ to pray the liturgy!
I agree with Hezekiel, there is probably a reason that this sometimes happens. But it is just happening more and more often more than when I first attended this church and am afraid that the Sunday Liturgy’s will be like the Saturday ones. Indeed as Matthew said let us pray that God will help us find the balance.
Coptic mass is just too long and has resulted in the following:
1. Hard to stay focused for so many hours (that's why a lot of people go late).
2. Children can't sit still and start running around and misbehaving.
3. Church becomes gossip ground where everyone is looking at each other and some even start talking and socializing while mass is going on.
4. People have to take frequent bathroom breaks going in and out of church causing distraction to others.
etc.
Having a shorter mass does not mean that I don't have time for God. As a Christian God should be with me all day long and not just when I am at Church.
Many things in the church are 'hard' for some, that however is no reason to dismiss them. Many for example find the many fasts in our church 'hard', shoud be make them shorter then? .. or what about the services in the Holy Week, sometimes we spend almost the whole day at church, that may be found 'hard' too by some...should we cut it all shorter because it's difficult to concentrate, or boring, or hard, or tiring???
I agree that every church has to adapt somewhat to the needs of the congregation, in Egypt for example, some churches do special liturgies very early in the morining for students during the exam period, sometimes certain situations ask for a shorter liturgy, exceptions are thus possible, but to say that the liturgy should be cut short generally because we find it too long is something I cannot agree with...
If we cannot free 2-3 hours of our time at least once each week (and I'm speaking to myself here also) for God, then maybe we should reconsider whatever keeps us from doing so instead of blaming it on the length of the liturgy.
The words said in the liturgy all have a meaning and a purpose, otherwise priests would have just given out the Holy Communion directly without any prayer beforehand. Consider also that during the liturgy, we all stand together as one church with both its heavenly and its earthly members, and pray in a unified spirit with one voice as the Body and Bride of Christ...
I personally prefer the shorter mass as I can't concentrate for 4 hours with all the noise, kids and action going on around me. I also don't feel like I benefit more just by being in church for an extra 2 hours. It's like attending a class in college that's 1 hour long 3 times a week or attending a 3 hour class once a week. I tend to benefit more from the shorter class session.
I also don't like what goes on in church with the long mass and people hanging out for long periods at church. It becomes less of a house of God and more of a nady/park.
I also don't like what goes on in church with the long mass and people hanging out for long periods at church. It becomes less of a house of God and more of a nady/park.
I agree with you, but it's the people who need to change here, not the liturgy!
For example, on Good Friday, we elongate tunes and sing very long hymns which could be said quite quickly. I think the Good Friday Service could be completed in much less than half the time that we spend in church that day. So why do we do it ? Because we want to spend every moment with Christ that day, who endured so much suffering for our sins!
Now, compare this to the 'express Mass'. Is Christ not there on that altar, giving up his life; his body and blood that we might partake in Him ? Is this really that different from our Good Friday service ? I don't think, however, that a mass should be elongated or shortened..
Think about it... The tempo of the service is set by the priest.. now do you really think that priest (who is chosen by God) would disrescpect the Body and the Blood that he is holding? I think not! I think that that priest is praying the mass at a tempo at which they benifit the most... So some of us might benifit more from longer masses and some of us shorter, there is not one tempo that fits all. The important thing is that we are focussed, we lift our hearts and be prepare for communion !
Sorry for dragging on, but my point is we cannot judge that a priest is 'rushing'. That may be how they benifit most from praying and what they believe their congregation benifits from. If you do not fit into that category, attend a different priests mass !
+God Bless.
For all those arguing in favor of the long mass, I just want to ask a question do you attend the full mass from the beginning?
What would anyone gain from such a question? Its not battle of who is the holiest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.frantonios.org.au/2010/02/17/fast-or-slow/
[quote author=grace08 link=topic=9092.msg113071#msg113071 date=1270919697]
For all those arguing in favor of the long mass, I just want to ask a question do you attend the full mass from the beginning?
What would anyone gain from such a question? Its not battle of who is the holiest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's a simple question and not a battle.......don't get it twisted. ATTENDING MASS EARLY DOES NOT MAKE YOU HOLYIER THAN OTHERS. So please DO NOT interpret it in a way that I did not intend.
[quote author=✞LoveConquersAll✞ link=topic=9092.msg113103#msg113103 date=1270976052]
[quote author=grace08 link=topic=9092.msg113071#msg113071 date=1270919697]
For all those arguing in favor of the long mass, I just want to ask a question do you attend the full mass from the beginning?
What would anyone gain from such a question? Its not battle of who is the holiest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's a simple question and not a battle.......don't get it twisted. ATTENDING MASS EARLY DOES NOT MAKE YOU HOLYIER THAN OTHERS. So please DO NOT interpret it in a way that I did not intend.
actually, I do. I do not understand how people would wake up at 5 am if they had to take the SAT (hypothetically) but they would not wake up at 6 or 7 to attend Liturgy from the beginning. For deacons, you must be at church before the Absolution of the Servants to be a deacon. People come after the Acts and expect their tonia to be blessed. For deacons, there is no excuse to be late. Father Bishoy Demetrious (May the Lord rest his soul) told everyone in his church that if you come after the gospel you cannot take communion. I understand where he is coming from. I do not agree completely. Everything before the Gospel is part of the Liturgy of the Word. People are supposed to be attending it to learn from the Word of God. If it was my choice which it isn't, I would say come from the beginning or do not take communion.
I liked that article by Father Antonios. I still stand on my opinion on not speeding during God's time
[quote author=✞LoveConquersAll✞ link=topic=9092.msg113103#msg113103 date=1270976052]
[quote author=grace08 link=topic=9092.msg113071#msg113071 date=1270919697]
For all those arguing in favor of the long mass, I just want to ask a question do you attend the full mass from the beginning?
What would anyone gain from such a question? Its not battle of who is the holiest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's a simple question and not a battle.......don't get it twisted. ATTENDING MASS EARLY DOES NOT MAKE YOU HOLYIER THAN OTHERS. So please DO NOT interpret it in a way that I did not intend.
I'm sorry but I still don't get what would anyone gain from such a question. Say of those who like NORMAL LENGTH masses, 50% attend from the beginning and 50% attend from the Sinixar?? WHAT BENEFIT WOULD THAT BE TO ANYONE??!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about those people, like many people I know, who pick up all the eldery people and arrive a bit later than the beginning? How about those who are sick with some disease, how about those who are using public transport?? THAT QUESTION IS NOT SO SIMPLE AFTER ALL IS IT??!!!!!!!!!!
[quote author=Hizz_chiilld link=topic=9092.msg113113#msg113113 date=1270998533]
OO YAY ! Look what I just found :)
http://www.frantonios.org.au/2010/02/17/fast-or-slow/
Thanks Hizz Child for the link! That's a really good article.
[quote author=grace08 link=topic=9092.msg113117#msg113117 date=1271002667]
[quote author=✞LoveConquersAll✞ link=topic=9092.msg113103#msg113103 date=1270976052]
[quote author=grace08 link=topic=9092.msg113071#msg113071 date=1270919697]
For all those arguing in favor of the long mass, I just want to ask a question do you attend the full mass from the beginning?
What would anyone gain from such a question? Its not battle of who is the holiest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's a simple question and not a battle.......don't get it twisted. ATTENDING MASS EARLY DOES NOT MAKE YOU HOLYIER THAN OTHERS. So please DO NOT interpret it in a way that I did not intend.
I'm sorry but I still don't get what would anyone gain from such a question. Say of those who like NORMAL LENGTH masses, 50% attend from the beginning and 50% attend from the Sinixar?? WHAT BENEFIT WOULD THAT BE TO ANYONE??!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about those people, like many people I know, who pick up all the eldery people and arrive a bit later than the beginning? How about those who are sick with some disease, how about those who are using public transport?? THAT QUESTION IS NOT SO SIMPLE AFTER ALL IS IT??!!!!!!!!!!
When an answer to a question is a yes or no, then to me it is a simple question. But I keep forgetting that nothing is simple with Egyptians. The point I was trying to make is that people should practice what they preach.
[quote author=✞LoveConquersAll✞ link=topic=9092.msg113140#msg113140 date=1271029854]
[quote author=grace08 link=topic=9092.msg113117#msg113117 date=1271002667]
[quote author=✞LoveConquersAll✞ link=topic=9092.msg113103#msg113103 date=1270976052]
[quote author=grace08 link=topic=9092.msg113071#msg113071 date=1270919697]
For all those arguing in favor of the long mass, I just want to ask a question do you attend the full mass from the beginning?
What would anyone gain from such a question? Its not battle of who is the holiest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's a simple question and not a battle.......don't get it twisted. ATTENDING MASS EARLY DOES NOT MAKE YOU HOLYIER THAN OTHERS. So please DO NOT interpret it in a way that I did not intend.
I'm sorry but I still don't get what would anyone gain from such a question. Say of those who like NORMAL LENGTH masses, 50% attend from the beginning and 50% attend from the Sinixar?? WHAT BENEFIT WOULD THAT BE TO ANYONE??!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about those people, like many people I know, who pick up all the eldery people and arrive a bit later than the beginning? How about those who are sick with some disease, how about those who are using public transport?? THAT QUESTION IS NOT SO SIMPLE AFTER ALL IS IT??!!!!!!!!!!
When an answer to a question is a yes or no, then to me it is a simple question. But I keep forgetting that nothing is simple with Egyptians. The point I was trying to make is that people should practice what they preach.
Generalisations, generalisations, generalisations, why diss Egyptians, it's like that everywhere, there will be elderly people who are too old to drive and need lifts from the younger youth everywhere, there will be people in a strict financial situation and don't have a car and thus need to use public transport on Sunday mornings everywhere, there are people with diseases and can't stand up in church for 20 minutes without collapsing so they have to make it later to church to take Holy Communion everywhere- this doesn't take anything away from them and they are just as well and eager as those who are at the doors before the chruch opens. Life for everyone is not as easy as getting into a car at 7:40am, travel for 20 minutes and come to church at 8am. People in this forum are mostly anonymous. When they share a concern, they are not preaching. Don't judge people and don't place the "practice what you preach" sign. People from all walks of life populate this forum so please be sensitive in your questions.
I reason I picked up on what you wrote because it directly affected me. Towards this issue I feel like hardyakka and selah feel, when you said why dont you attend the mass from the beginning I felt it affected me and I couldn't believe what I was reading because I am handicapped. We don't have a car that accomodates my wheelchair so we have to use public transport on a sunday morning and the mass starts at 8am the earliest bus that gets me there is at 9:15am about the time when the Sinixarium is read, it moves from the bus stop 100m away from my porch at 8:45am. I wish that one day I could attend a mass from the beginning because I know how hardyakka and Selah feel when things are said quickly during a mass, I believe in a 3 hour liturgy every Sunday where I can prepare myself to recieve Holy Communion and I wish to attend a mass from the beginning. I don't like it when I come at 9:15am and find that I am up to the Heavenly Hymn and missed the Gospel because my Abouna had sped it up. I tell my Sunday school children to come to church early, now is it possible for me to practice what I preach? Please think. And I am not even preaching on this forum am I? Just to the Sunday school kids.
To Selah
Sorry Selah for writing all this on the thread, I just want people to be sensitive to others reading this forum. In reply to your questions, you asked how to deal with this, well maybe you would like to make a quick conversation with your abouna about this, and perhaps come on here and tell us what he said so we could learn from the conversation. Maybe also print out the article that Hizz Child provided and present it to abouna. Maybe also pray more for the balance Father Antonios was talking about, afterall God's wisdom is infinite and He has the answer. Pray for me.
Christ is Risen
Firstly THANKYOU!! Hizz Child for finding that article it was very informative and answered all my questions :)
loveconquersall, sorry to hear about your ordeal however I am glad you share the passion I have for reasonably lengthed liturgys as opposed to quick ones. Indeed we do need time to prepare to recieve the King of kings and we do need to preserve the traditions held in the church for thousands of years. I will show the article to my abouna and present all of the helpful analogies that Father Antonios presented and hopefully God's infinite wisdom will shine through the decision making. Please keep me in your prayers.
To those who have told me to go to another church, the option is not available for me as I am involved in the Sunday school services and the closest church aside other than the one I go to at the moment is a 3 hour drive. If that option had been available to me I wouldnt have shared my concern or asked for help. I do not start threads for no reason. Thank you all for your help, its been wonderful.
God bless
Quality is the main factor.
I like quality. It does not make a difference long or short.
Quality is the main factor.
thank you...thank you....thank you.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=9092.msg113233#msg113233 date=1271212343]
I like quality. It does not make a difference long or short.
Quality is the main factor.
thank you...thank you....thank you.
Define quality.