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Bread and Wine
Agapy everyone!
Could anyone explain why we use bread and wine and not something else or as the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ? Is any reason behind it?
agapy!
Could anyone explain why we use bread and wine and not something else or as the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ? Is any reason behind it?
agapy!
Comments
Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
He told us to do soo and therefore we use the bread and wine to resemble his Holy Body and Blood after being prayed and transformed into the real body and blood, not just bread and wine.
It's simply because He told us to do so in order to remeber Him. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
He told us to do soo and therefore we use the bread and wine to resemble his Holy Body and Blood after being prayed and transformed into the real body and blood, not just bread and wine.
thanks marina! but I still do not understand why our Lord chose bread instead of ;say fish or meat products and sanctify it,but wine instead of milk ,water or other fluid?
agapy!
(Correct me if I am wrong) Didn't Jesus Christ use bread because it is was Mozes and the children of Israel used for passover lamb -as a sacrifice to God. And Christ was our last life-eternal sacrifice. And the prist (Which is also Christ) took the blood of the passover lamb into the holy of holies (where God is present) , and offered it unto God for the forgiveness of sins -but Christ's blood has broken the veil which seperated man from the Holy of Holies and God. I don't know why He chose wine to "transform" it into His Holy and precious blood, it could be to what jydeacon typed. God bless everyone, please pray for me
The bread is a prototype of the lamb, but there isn't a correlation, I wouldn't think between bread and a lamb. The passover sacrifice was in fact a lamb, the lamb itself is a symbol of Christ. They than took this blood and put it on the door posts of the houses, so the angel of death would "passover" the children of Israel saving them.
The Eucharist is a Holy Sacrament, a mystery of the Orthodox Chruch of God. We see ourselves eating the bread and drinking the wine, He sees His Body and Blood in communion with us, a grace bestowed upon us because He is the Living Sacrifice:
Revelation 5:6 "And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth."
This is my own personal contemplation and I am not sure if it is right or not, forgive me if its not: Bread is such a simple food composed of flour, water and yeast. It has a similar feel of flesh when you press it. Wine is also simple, fermented grape juice. It has a similiar colour to blood. I guess God is trying to make it easier for us to make the connection and see what He sees when we are in the Holy Communion. They additionally have not passed through an animal or of an animal because it is the covenant of the New Testament as opposed to the Old Testament where a lamb offering was used to forgive sins. As a matter of fact, everything after the death and resurrection of the Lord changed because He has reconciled God and man, and lamb offerings were no longer needed to forgive sins as Jesus payed the debt on the cross which is why He came to Hades to retreive all the righteous prophets from awaiting the destruction of hell, all that is needed now is repentance and confession and partaking of the Holy Sacrament of Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Jesus Himself for the forgiveness of sins.
Ephesians 1:7 "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace"
Other graces were bestowed upon us after the death and resurrection of our Lord is prayer. In the old testament, ordinary people like you and I would have to go to a prophet to communicate to God, now we are able to do this by ourslelves from anywhere at anytime.
There's a lot of meanings behind the use of bread and wine. One of them being that both bread and wine are made out of a huge number of grain/grapes. Yet they are all united into one bread/cup. In the same way we as a large number of congregation are united in the One Christ.
Woah, thats deep. Thanks for sharing, Hos Erof!
I agree with everybody, but why isnt wine like alcoholic product, isnt there a wine that isnt alcoholic?
The wine we use does not have a high alcohol content, at least shouldn't, it should be less than half a percent or something.
[quote author=Godislove_ link=topic=9108.msg113308#msg113308 date=1271362443]
I agree with everybody, but why isnt wine like alcoholic product, isnt there a wine that isnt alcoholic?
The wine we use does not have a high alcohol content, at least shouldn't, it should be less than half a percent or something.
Wow. The wine we use is 17.5% content ;D
Wow. The wine we use is 17.5% content ;D
17.5% lol..that is fortifed wine..meaning,there is schnapps (spirit) in it..One can sense it in the taste,I guess..
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=9108.msg113321#msg113321 date=1271368442]
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=9108.msg113316#msg113316 date=1271367185]
[quote author=Godislove_ link=topic=9108.msg113308#msg113308 date=1271362443]
I agree with everybody, but why isnt wine like alcoholic product, isnt there a wine that isnt alcoholic?
The wine we use does not have a high alcohol content, at least shouldn't, it should be less than half a percent or something.
Wow. The wine we use is 17.5% content ;D
17.5% lol..that is fortifed wine..meaning,there is schnapps (spirit) in it..One can sense it in the taste,I guess..
Ah, fair enough man. Although as you only get a spoonful and its watered down anyway, there's no real risk of getting tipsy (unless you're a mega lightweight :P).
Lol, I don't have the exact alcohol level haha but i would think it should def be lower than 17.5% alcohol. I would think at least less than 5. I know here in the US at least, Christian book stores and Christian stores in general sell specific wine with low alcohol content for use in Liturgies.
I do wonder if the wine should be pure ,as additives are added to the wine to prevent it from going bad.
Hey,
The Eucharist is a Holy Sacrament, a mystery of the Orthodox Chruch of God. We see ourselves eating the bread and drinking the wine, He sees His Body and Blood in communion with us, a grace bestowed upon us because He is the Living Sacrifice:
Revelation 5:6 "And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth."
This is my own personal contemplation and I am not sure if it is right or not, forgive me if its not: Bread is such a simple food composed of flour, water and yeast. It has a similar feel of flesh when you press it. Wine is also simple, fermented grape juice. It has a similiar colour to blood. I guess God is trying to make it easier for us to make the connection and see what He sees when we are in the Holy Communion. They additionally have not passed through an animal or of an animal because it is the covenant of the New Testament as opposed to the Old Testament where a lamb offering was used to forgive sins. As a matter of fact, everything after the death and resurrection of the Lord changed because He has reconciled God and man, and lamb offerings were no longer needed to forgive sins as Jesus payed the debt on the cross which is why He came to Hades to retreive all the righteous prophets from awaiting the destruction of hell, all that is needed now is repentance and confession and partaking of the Holy Sacrament of Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Jesus Himself for the forgiveness of sins.
Ephesians 1:7 "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace"
Other graces were bestowed upon us after the death and resurrection of our Lord is prayer. In the old testament, ordinary people like you and I would have to go to a prophet to communicate to God, now we are able to do this by ourslelves from anywhere at anytime.
Nice contemplation Selah!
do you seriously think that the color of wine has anything to do with the color of blood in this case? I think not. For some reason,I still feel that this question is unanswered.As someone suggested I checked in Genesis to find parallel in the story of melchiezedek.The verse only says Melchiezedek brought out bread and wine, blessed Abram, and received tithes from him.This may be something prophetic,but I do not get in what ways that has anything to do with the bread and wine of our Lord?
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=9108.msg113305#msg113305 date=1271356282]
There's a lot of meanings behind the use of bread and wine. One of them being that both bread and wine are made out of a huge number of grain/grapes. Yet they are all united into one bread/cup. In the same way we as a large number of congregation are united in the One Christ.
what exactly are those meanings? for all i know, bread could also made with one type of grain; wheat.Wine undergoes certain processes,but so does beer or whiskey or other drinks.
agapy!
On a side note, I cannot remember where, but I had read a contemplation saying that since Melchizedek had no genealogy and was the Word Himself blessing Abraham, and used bread and wine in the same manner He did in New Testament. Would it make sense to say that the order of Melchizedek is an everlasting priesthood if he was human? I'm not sure, my two cents. So that is the connection I was referring to by the story of in Genesis.
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=9108.msg113305#msg113305 date=1271356282]
There's a lot of meanings behind the use of bread and wine. One of them being that both bread and wine are made out of a huge number of grain/grapes. Yet they are all united into one bread/cup. In the same way we as a large number of congregation are united in the One Christ.
what exactly are those meanings? for all i know, bread could also made with one type of grain; wheat.Wine undergoes certain processes,but so does beer or whiskey or other drinks.
agapy!
http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/images/grain.jpg makes http://patricklynch.net/recipes/graphics/roastred-garlic-bread.jpg (pretend thats a picture of orban)... we are many (like the grain), but we make one Body in Christ, as Hos Erof said "congregation is united in One Christ".. same thing with wine.. you make it using many grapes (representing the congregation).. idk, i hope that makes a little more sense. lol i feel like i just reiterated what Hos Erof said.. maybe someone else can explain this better lol
Look in Exodus: On Passover, God directed the ancestors of the Jews to eat unleavened bread, the rapid departure from Egypt did not allow for the fermentation of dough.
but I still do not understand why our Lord chose bread instead of ;say fish or meat products and sanctify it,but wine instead of milk ,water or other fluid?
To add a sentence to what others said, the Lord did not say I am the fish of life,but the bread of life ( today's Gospel reading), and He did not say I am the true water or milk,but the true Vine.To understand it fully, you have to refer to the Old testament to find prophecies that explain it including Melchezedak.
Lol, I don't have the exact alcohol level haha but i would think it should def be lower than 17.5% alcohol. I would think at least less than 5. I know here in the US at least, Christian book stores and Christian stores in general sell specific wine with low alcohol content for use in Liturgies.
the wine in my church is 12%.Correct me if I am wrong with any of this. I am pretty sure we are drinking the Blood of Christ, Not wine. It changed into the blood from wine. Last time I checked Christ's blood is pure and does not have alcohol in it. Therefore, even if it is 5% or 50% (hypothetically), it is still the blood of Christ so there is no alcohol in the end.
We receive Christ in the form of bread and wine so that we are able to consume his Body and Blood. If it were bloody flesh which we consume then we would not be able to.
We truly receive the Body and Blood of Christ, but what we consume is not simple flesh and blood.
The fact that there are occasional miracles when the bread does appear to the celebrating priest as flesh, or as an infant, or sometimes as filled with light, shows that ordinarily we consume that which has the appearance and texture of bread and wine.
Father Peter
In regard to the thought about what we actually receive in the eucharist, he says...
It was fitting therefore for Him to be in us both divinely by the Holy Spirit, and also, so to speak, to be mingled with our bodies by His holy flesh and precious blood: which things also we possess as a life-giving eucharist, in the form of bread and wine. For lest we should be terrified by seeing (actual) flesh and blood placed upon the holy tables of our churches, God, humbling Himself to our infirmities, infuses into the things set before us the power of life, and transforms them into the efficacy of His flesh, that we may have them for a life-giving participation, and that the body of (Him Who is the) Life may be found in us as a life-producing seed.
And do not doubt that this is true, since Himself plainly says, "This is My body: "This is My blood:" but rather receive in faith the Saviour's word; for He, being the Truth, cannot lie. And so will you honour Him; for as the very wise John says, "He that receives His witness has set his seal that God is true. For He Whom God sent speaks the words of God." For the words of God are of course true, and in no manner whatsoever can they be false: for even though we understand not in what way God works acts such as these, yet He Himself knows the way of His works. For when Nicodemus could not understand His words concerning holy baptism, and foolishly said, "How can those things be?" he heard Christ in answer say, "Verily I say to you, that we speak that which we know, and testify that which we see, and you receive not our testimony. If I have spoken to you the earthly things, and you believe not, how will you believe if I tell you the heavenly things?" For how indeed can a man learn those things which transcend the powers of our mind and reason? Let therefore this our divine mystery be honoured by faith.
I have highlighted a couple of sentences. It seems to me that St Cyril is teaching us that in a manner which requires faith Christ is bodily and spiritually present in the bread and wine, which remain in the form of bread and wine so that we might not be terrified, but which are truly infused in some way with the reality of his bodily and spiritual presence, which is life and power to us and in us. The bread and wine become the means by which we receive the body and blood of Christ, and they are truly the body and blood of Christ even while we receive this gift in the form of bread and wine.
In the same way the waters of baptism become a life-giving fountain, and yet to a heart without faith the baptistery is no different to any other bath, yet we believe the waters are infused with a divine power and become something other than mere water, although they do not cease being water.
In the same way those who had known our Lord from his infancy said of him, 'We know this man, he is the son of Joseph the Carpenter, how can he say he has come down from heaven?' His divinity was veiled from those who had no faith, while to those who believed even while he died upon the cross the spirit in them cried out, 'Truly this man was the Son of God'.
Faith is not a vague wish that things be so. It is not like hoping we have won the lottery.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Here the Scriptures remind us that faith is not wishful thinking, but a trust and confidence in God based on evidence and substance. We have good reasons for trusting God, not philosophical ones - though they are also helpful - but the reality of what we have already experienced of God is evidence to us that our faith is not in vain. And so at the eucharist we receive what looks like and tastes like and smells like bread and wine, but we know better than to believe that it is only or most importantly just bread and wine. We know, because we have the experience in our own lives of having received Christ in the eucharist, that this is truly the body and blood of Christ. The one who considers only the bread and wine receives no blessing. Those of us who have faith meet Christ in the eucharist and believe that the Holy Spirit descends upon the altar and the congregation so that through receiving this heavenly food we truly receive Christ Himself.
But as with all of our Christian life, God does not choose to make himself known in an irrefutable manner. He comes in a hidden manner among us, he is a still, small voice, easily ignored. He still gives himself to us in bread and wine. But not mere bread and wine. Not simply as a symbolic gesture. But truly being present in bread and wine which is infused and transformed into life and power without ceasing also to have the form of bread and wine.
I have stood beside a priest at the altar who clearly had such transforming faith that he wept as he prayed the fraction. I hope that the Lord will grant me enough years to also share that quality of faith, which not only acknowledges the theological fact that Christ is present in the eucharist, but with every single fibre of being sees and feels and experiences Christ present as Lord and God in the eucharist. To know with the mind is one thing, but to believe with the heart and soul is another.
Pray for me that I become such a priest.
Father Peter
We are not drinking blood, we are drinking the blood of Christ under the form of wine.
We receive Christ in the form of bread and wine so that we are able to consume his Body and Blood. If it were bloody flesh which we consume then we would not be able to.
We truly receive the Body and Blood of Christ, but what we consume is not simple flesh and blood.
The fact that there are occasional miracles when the bread does appear to the celebrating priest as flesh, or as an infant, or sometimes as filled with light, shows that ordinarily we consume that which has the appearance and texture of bread and wine.
Father Peter
I know it is 100% the blood and body of Christ. In the confession, we say "Amen Amen, I believe I believe I believe and confess to the last breath that this is life giving of flesh of your only begotten Son our Lord our God and our Savior Jesus Christ". When Saint Cyril says it is in the form of bread and wine, that means it looks like bread and wine only. It does not mean it is bread and wine. During the Epiclesis (not sure about spelling) in the Institution Narrative, the Priests says "And this bread He changes into His Holy Body" and "And the mixture in this cup into the precious blood of His new covenant". Therefore as it only looks like wine and it is the true blood of Christ, alcohol content does not matter.
Please correct me if I am wrong; this is how I interpreted it.
Pray for me.
But after reading a lot of Fathers last night I am not at all sure that the question as to whether the wine retains its alcoholic content is appropriate to ask. None of the Fathers have asked this question, but have preferred to veil this mystery without making it subject to rational explanation.
It is better to say - we don't know.
Because if we made the eucharist liable to human scientific investigation we would not be acting in faith. Certainly the Blood of Christ looks like wine. If it was studied under a microscope would it cease to look like wine? If it was studied under an electron microscope would we not still see the molecular structure of wine, which includes the molecular constituents of alcohol? Who would dare to do such a thing!
As far as I can see the Fathers do say both that it looks and tastes like bread and wine, and is truly the Body and Blood of our Lord.
I am not sure we should say anything else.
Father Peter