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DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Dear all,
I have a problem and I desperately need any help/advice/comment/prayer I can get from you. Writing about the details of this issue may take ages; therefore, I will try to tell you what this is about in a nutshell.
I have a friend that I have known all my life. I am very close to him (let’s call him Mister X) and enjoy the time I spend with him. Mister X has always been a popular person with great qualities. However, Mister X has had a major problem ever since he was a kid: he constantly lies, exaggerates and makes up fake stories that shed the best light on him. For instance, he can say that he went to do humanitarian work in Africa for 2 weeks when in reality, he never took a trip to Africa in his life. Mister X can describe the details of his fake trip with complete confidence as if it were really true. I am writing this example simply to demonstrate the seriousness of the lies. I know about ALL his lies, I spend so much time with him that I know whether or not he is lying.
Mister X is not a kid; he is in his mid twenties. Only the people extremely close to him realize that he is lying. When you question Mr. X about his lies, he becomes angry, defensive and talks behind your back. Me and 2-3 other close friends have always known about the lying problem of Mister X; however, we subconsciously neglected it and pretended as if it were not there. It’s also very important to mention that WE DID NOT realize the seriousness of this situation up until the past few weeks.
Basically what happened is that we put the pieces of the puzzle together and did our research and we are now convinced that Mr X suffers from the “pathological lying disorder”. What triggered us to solve this puzzle were the beyond ridiculous fake stories Mister X was inventing lately. Mr. X gets praised and credit for the fake stories he tells people.
We love Mister X and we REALLY want to help him. We have absolutely no idea what to do. We are the only ones who know about his problem. Please do not tell me that “maybe he does not have a disorder” or that “you are not a psychologist” because, as certain we are about the color of milk, we are certain about his problem. We have never confronted him as we are scared that he will get defensive and eliminate us from his life. We love him so much and this could not be said enough. We are never going to tell anyone about this problem unless we are certain that there will be a good outcome.
Any ideas? We thought about speaking to our father of confession and leaving Mister X’s name anonymous. Please, please let us know what you think. We think we have a responsibility to help him but the question is how? Pray for us...Thank you in advance.
I have a problem and I desperately need any help/advice/comment/prayer I can get from you. Writing about the details of this issue may take ages; therefore, I will try to tell you what this is about in a nutshell.
I have a friend that I have known all my life. I am very close to him (let’s call him Mister X) and enjoy the time I spend with him. Mister X has always been a popular person with great qualities. However, Mister X has had a major problem ever since he was a kid: he constantly lies, exaggerates and makes up fake stories that shed the best light on him. For instance, he can say that he went to do humanitarian work in Africa for 2 weeks when in reality, he never took a trip to Africa in his life. Mister X can describe the details of his fake trip with complete confidence as if it were really true. I am writing this example simply to demonstrate the seriousness of the lies. I know about ALL his lies, I spend so much time with him that I know whether or not he is lying.
Mister X is not a kid; he is in his mid twenties. Only the people extremely close to him realize that he is lying. When you question Mr. X about his lies, he becomes angry, defensive and talks behind your back. Me and 2-3 other close friends have always known about the lying problem of Mister X; however, we subconsciously neglected it and pretended as if it were not there. It’s also very important to mention that WE DID NOT realize the seriousness of this situation up until the past few weeks.
Basically what happened is that we put the pieces of the puzzle together and did our research and we are now convinced that Mr X suffers from the “pathological lying disorder”. What triggered us to solve this puzzle were the beyond ridiculous fake stories Mister X was inventing lately. Mr. X gets praised and credit for the fake stories he tells people.
We love Mister X and we REALLY want to help him. We have absolutely no idea what to do. We are the only ones who know about his problem. Please do not tell me that “maybe he does not have a disorder” or that “you are not a psychologist” because, as certain we are about the color of milk, we are certain about his problem. We have never confronted him as we are scared that he will get defensive and eliminate us from his life. We love him so much and this could not be said enough. We are never going to tell anyone about this problem unless we are certain that there will be a good outcome.
Any ideas? We thought about speaking to our father of confession and leaving Mister X’s name anonymous. Please, please let us know what you think. We think we have a responsibility to help him but the question is how? Pray for us...Thank you in advance.
Comments
That's interesting. I've met a few people like that.
A technique is you have to make ready a topic to talk about at all times. Sometimes, awkward silences may cause someone to think that they need to work to get someone interested in them so they talk more (even unnessesarily) and make you interested in them, even if they have to lie.
Its always good to see the causes of this and tell him you like him the way he is and talk about the things that are true about him, like his job/ study, family, and most importantly, make God a constant in your conversations. I'll post more soon.
This situation is in my prayers and I wish you all the best. Take care.
Dear all,
I have a problem and I desperately need any help/advice/comment/prayer I can get from you. Writing about the details of this issue may take ages; therefore, I will try to tell you what this is about in a nutshell.
I have a friend that I have known all my life. I am very close to him (let’s call him Mister X) and enjoy the time I spend with him. Mister X has always been a popular person with great qualities. However, Mister X has had a major problem ever since he was a kid: he constantly lies, exaggerates and makes up fake stories that shed the best light on him. For instance, he can say that he went to do humanitarian work in Africa for 2 weeks when in reality, he never took a trip to Africa in his life. Mister X can describe the details of his fake trip with complete confidence as if it were really true. I am writing this example simply to demonstrate the seriousness of the lies. I know about ALL his lies, I spend so much time with him that I know whether or not he is lying.
Mister X is not a kid; he is in his mid twenties. Only the people extremely close to him realize that he is lying. When you question Mr. X about his lies, he becomes angry, defensive and talks behind your back. Me and 2-3 other close friends have always known about the lying problem of Mister X; however, we subconsciously neglected it and pretended as if it were not there. It’s also very important to mention that WE DID NOT realize the seriousness of this situation up until the past few weeks.
Basically what happened is that we put the pieces of the puzzle together and did our research and we are now convinced that Mr X suffers from the “pathological lying disorder”. What triggered us to solve this puzzle were the beyond ridiculous fake stories Mister X was inventing lately. Mr. X gets praised and credit for the fake stories he tells people.
We love Mister X and we REALLY want to help him. We have absolutely no idea what to do. We are the only ones who know about his problem. Please do not tell me that “maybe he does not have a disorder” or that “you are not a psychologist” because, as certain we are about the color of milk, we are certain about his problem. We have never confronted him as we are scared that he will get defensive and eliminate us from his life. We love him so much and this could not be said enough. We are never going to tell anyone about this problem unless we are certain that there will be a good outcome.
Any ideas? We thought about speaking to our father of confession and leaving Mister X’s name anonymous. Please, please let us know what you think. We think we have a responsibility to help him but the question is how? Pray for us...Thank you in advance.
Hi. I knew someone like that. Each time I approached him about his lie, he'd be SO mad (at Me!). He'd tell lies, as you said, to make him feel good.
In fact, this person's father also bore the same traits.
I wish, looking back, that I never really was this person's friend. Its not a psychological disorder. (in his case it wasn't). All sins we do are disorders of some kind anyway.
This friend (ex friend) of mine always loves to show off, and show himself in the best light possible.
But I noticed one thing with this guy: he LOVED to criticise me, and he didnt really care about me. He wouldn't think twice about telling me anything hurtful, no matter how true it was, and whenever I'd draw his attention about his lying, he'd become VERY mad.
You can pray for him, but its best not to be their friends. If he consistently lies, and it is part of his character, I would advise you to make better judgements when choosing friends. Sometimes we feel that because we've grown up with someone from Church, we are all more than friends... brothers and sisters. But you will be hurt. He is not being fair with you. Your friendship is not based on truth either.Its not a normal friendship. It seems to be one of "master and slave". He needs you for his ego, but he doesn't really need you.
If his lying reaches the point where it is disrespectful, find another friend.
in my experience, psychologists and psychiatrists can't help people very much if they don't want any help or if they deny there is a problem.
unless the person is going to hurt someone else or attept suicide, it probably won't help to force them to face the problem and get medical help.
what i would suggest is to act like the problem is not so bad, and call it 'story-telling', so when you are away from other people and your friend is lying to you, you could say something like, 'you know, i heard enough stories for today, i'm tired, tell me what you think of ...' (eg the bishop's lecture, the weather, the political situation in your country, anything).
this way you will get to know the real person behind the stories, and he will feel accepted for himself. only then will he open up and start to be real with you and maybe a long time after (eg if you're talking about how to make friends or how to get to know God better) then you could say something like 'you know you're a really interesting person just how you are, you don't need so many stories'.
i want to warn you again, this person may be so insecure and disturbed, he could hurt you by lying about you to your other friends or cutting off the friendship, if he thinks you have realised he is lying. so if you are going to try and help him in this way, take the advice of abouna (yes, you can leave his name out though i expect abouna will know who you are talking about!) and any other mature Christian friend who can give good advice.
i think it's lovely you want to help, you have a sweet heart.
may God give you wisdom and protect you, your sister in Christ :)
Also pray =]
One of my friends that ive known all my life does that too..it gets on my nerves sooo much...
but it was just the way she was u know?
ill pray for u & also for my friend too =]
First of all, I would like to thank you all for taking the time to reflect on this situation and actually write out a reply. However, there are a few things I would like to mention:
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9146.msg113672#msg113672 date=1271923512]
You can pray for him, but its best not to be their friends. If he consistently lies, and it is part of his character, I would advise you to make better judgements when choosing friends. Sometimes we feel that because we've grown up with someone from Church, we are all more than friends... brothers and sisters. But you will be hurt. He is not being fair with you. Your friendship is not based on truth either.Its not a normal friendship. It seems to be one of "master and slave". He needs you for his ego, but he doesn't really need you.
If his lying reaches the point where it is disrespectful, find another friend.
Zoxasi, you are absolutely right when you say that we will be hurt, we have already been hurt several times now...and you are also right when you say that Mister X uses us for his ego. Although most of what you said was true, there is no way that we will terminate our friendship with him. It is true that his constant lies are indeed a form of disrespect (just like you said) but ending our friendship due to this problem is simply not an option.
He has a problem and we now recognize that. His lies are actually unintentional in a way; it is part of his disorder. We just want to help but we don’t know how. My friends and I have read multiple threads about “pathological lying”, it can take years of therapy to overcome. Of course, we believe that God is alive and God can perform miracles. We want to remain friends with him, I just really hope that we don’t reach a point where we can’t stand his lies because I know for a fact that most of the people he will turn to will not recognize the seriousness of his disorder. Again Zoxasi, thank you for taking the time to comment.
Mabsoota, thanks for your comment and your kind words..
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=9146.msg113679#msg113679 date=1271964666]
what i would suggest is to act like the problem is not so bad, and call it 'story-telling', so when you are away from other people and your friend is lying to you, you could say something like, 'you know, i heard enough stories for today, i'm tired, tell me what you think of ...' (eg the bishop's lecture, the weather, the political situation in your country, anything).
I would be so happy if this would work, but the reality of the situation is that if we would dare say that “we have heard enough stories for today” he would never ever change subjects. He would get extremely defensive and say something along the following lines “ story telling? U don’t believe me? OK ask person A or B or C and you will see that I’m right and you are wrong”
This can get very frustrating and that is why I completely understand Zoxasi when he says we need to stop being friends...but my 2 close friends and I really can’t do this.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=9146.msg113679#msg113679 date=1271964666]
i want to warn you again, this person may be so insecure and disturbed, he could hurt you by lying about you to your other friends or cutting off the friendship, if he thinks you have realised he is lying. so if you are going to try and help him in this way, take the advice of abouna (yes, you can leave his name out though i expect abouna will know who you are talking about!) and any other mature Christian friend who can give good advice.
You’re right, he is disturbed. He gets extremely defensive when you question anything he has to say. Even if your questioning is innocent and has no intention of calling him out on his lies, he will still get angry and defensive. He does not want to be questioned; he lives in the twisted world he created for himself. It’s quite frightening when you think about it. This can be a great friendship turn off especially when you know that what he is saying isn’t true and he is getting angry and defensive when he has no reason to be that way. We just try to keep in mind that “it’s not his fault...” or “poor him, he is suffering mentally..” the most worrying thing is that he seems to believe his own lies.
Sometimes we feel like sponges, we’re just sitting there and absorbing lie after lie after lie... we can’t call him out because we think he will be extremely angry & defensive and he would just go out there and bad mouth us to other people (like you said Mabsoota).
I guess we’ll try talking to our f.o.c...Thank you again, please pray
If anyone else has experienced a similar situation or has any idea on how to resolve the issue, please, please let us know...
God be with you. I felt that although we can pray for each other (and we should!), unless your friend has the desire to live in some sort of modest/humble way and not lie then prayer will not change him; and this could frustrate you - as a friend. Prayer changes you. If I have a tendency to lie, and I want to stop, then I pray for God's Grace to help me stop lying. But you praying for someone who has no desire to change, nor to accept any criticism will not be constructive.
I feel life is too short to spend it in such ways. Distancing yourself from such a friendship, is not at all weakness.
I just don't get it. No one is perfect - we agree - but you have the right to choose your friends. If he was a member of your family, I would not give u this advice. But as a friend, whose actions COULD make you sin, then it would be wiser to "remove your right hand" if your right hand is causing you to sin.
By distancing yourself, you will most likely have a greater impact on his life than by staying friends as it is humilation to be with someone who constantly lies and treats you as if you have an IQ of a 2 year old.
Finally, Christ asked us to ask him "DO not lead us into temptation(tests)". You are assuming you can handle this friendship. If you can - that's great. I don't know your spiritual level, but the fact that you are "assuming you can handle it" does not show your spiritual level in good light. It would be wiser to run away from any temptation, or from anyone capable of causing you to stumble.
Please remember - St Peter also had good intentions... yet he couldn't even manage to witness for Christ, and he ended up denying Him THREE times.
Friendships are so valuable, and wonderful, especially in your age. I am concerned that whilst you could be enjoying your youth with friends who deserve your company, you will be wasting it unfruitfully in this relationship. It is your life. I hope that God simply guides you at least.
Good Luck!
Friends do not carry out these deceptions.
If the person does not want to get help, then that is their business.
If you do not want to walk away, after warning and seeing the pathological state, then you
become your own issue.
It's not a friendship.
Friends do not carry out these deceptions.
If the person does not want to get help, then that is their business.
If you do not want to walk away, after warning and seeing the pathological state, then you
become your own issue.
I would agree with ILoveStMark on this.
Daughter of Emmanuel, Christ taught us to love one another. He didnt say "you must be friends with others".
St Paul teaches us to "live with another in peace as far as possible".
Why is not being friends with this fellow not an option for you? It doesn't make sense. It cannot be a friendship. It defies the term friendship already. There is no friendship here if there is no respect, nor if there is no honesty or truth between you.
By NOT being friends, it does NOT mean you should stop loving NOR praying for him. On the contrary! He is your brother, not your friend. We all need good Christian friends in life, people to help us grow spiritually and correct us, but your sincerity is being trampled upon, and your self respect. (in my opinion).
I hope that we still have the blessings of the fast that we recently completed continuing with us, and are journeying through these Holy Fifty days with Christ in our minds. I have been following this thread over the last few days and I feel that it is important that we keep a few things in mind so that we can all learn from one another and continue in our paths towards Christ, not only as individuals, but as individuals who are members of the Body of Christ, struggling to reach a common goal.
In our lives, it is quite easy for us to see those who are around us who fall outside of normal social or spiritual conduct and quickly ascribe some sort of judgment to these people: those classmates or colleagues of ours who are weird or simply seem to be using others for their own betterment, that extended family member who seems to always gossip about the rest of the family and paints a bad portrait of us, that servant at Church who appears to us to be hypocritical in his or her ways. I'm sure that we all have encountered people of this caliber, and it is easy for us to want to distance ourselves from these people. Sometimes, this may be the best mode of action for us to do that will benefit everyone involved, but this certainly is not always the case, and I would venture to say that almost always, this should not be the way that we should approach the situation.
I cannot say definitively what it is that the person suffers from in terms of a psychological diagnosis, but I think it is clear to see that this person most certainly is struggling with a sin that seems to have overtaken their life. Before I continue, I ask that we all recollect within our own minds those sins which have overtaken our lives, those which have become habits, those which may not necessarily separate us from our friends in such an apparent sense as this situation, but which most certainly distances ourselves from God. We are all subject to certain struggles within our lives; some struggles are more obvious than others. If we have children that we're serving in Church, we will soon notice that certain children have things that they will struggle with; it is most assuredly the simplest of alternatives to simply focus on the "good" kids, as the others would require too much work. How would I feel if I was the one struggling with a particular sin, a sin that has overtaken my life, and those who were around me gave up on me?
God bless you and your friends for not abandoning this particular friend. Yes, he does need your support. He needs your prayers, your love, your kindness, your understanding; he needs the image of Christ within you. This is not a matter of keeping our distance from the other person, per se. The Orthodox life is a life of struggling, against our own wants and along with those who we surround ourselves with. It is important to remember that we all have our shortcomings, and that we support one another in the endeavor to reach the Kingdom of Heaven. If I have broken my arm, would I cut it off, or would I put it into a cast, allow it to heal, and have it reintegrate fully back into my normal every day actions? Surely, it would be foolish to cut it off. Why would I do this for a member of the Body of Christ?
I pray that God strengthens you and your friends as you deal with this issue. Just as the four friends in the Gospel brought their sinful, paralyzed friend before Christ after struggling to lower him from the roof, so too should we approach God with the problems of those who we see are struggling and in need of His assistance, which is truly everyone. There may be medical and psychological efforts that may be necessary to adequately address this issue, but these are adjuncts (though necessary ones) to our constant prayers. Approach with a strengthened faith, knowing that God wishes to have His child return to Him once again, just as you wish to do the same.
Pray for my weaknesses and for each other's weaknesses, that we all may strive for and successfully reach eternal life with our Loving God,
childoforthodoxy
"What profits a man if gains the whole world, and loses himself."
I want to ring in here from a psychiatric/psychological point of view. I think it is often difficult for believers to differentiate sin and a personality disorder. I understand this. However, there are such things as the latter, and your friend seems to have behavior that is quite in keeping with there being an underlying disorder. It may be partly learned (so many things are), as you mention the father is the same way. I do think that most of us know there is a difference between, say, lying when you have been caught doing something--"Did you eat the last cookie?" "Me? No!" (said while wiping away the telltale crumbs around the mouth! ha!)--and this kind of lying--"I was in Africa doing humanitarian work for two weeks!" They are qualitatively different lies. (And yes, we know that, as far as "sin" goes, lying is lying, but we are talking about something deeper.)
Pathological liars often have other things going on. A good mental health professional would be able to make a diagnosis, but the trouble is, first of all, that your friend probably will refuse to even acknowledge that he has any type of problem, and in fact, may accuse YOU of having a problem. You may want to google "narcissistic personality disorder" to see how many of the symptoms fit your friend; people with this disorder often try to make themselves look much better than they really are, and much better than everyone else; it stems from significant self-esteem issues. I also understand that the American board of psychiatry is considering including pathological lying as a separate diagnosis to include in the DSM-IV or V. Here is a link to personality disorders:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/personality-disorders/DS00562
The one thing I would caution you about is that it is nothing you can "cure" or get the person to even admit. You can certainly pray for your friend, but you should be cautious about enmeshing yourself into that person's life/issues, since that is a life based on the inability to dwell in TRUTH. It is sad. Often times people who lie will manipulate others and become like chameleons themselves to fit the situation.
Love covers a multitude of sins, it is true, and it is good to pray for and to extend grace to your friend, but to also detach in order to not get sucked into a deleterious friendship.
God bless you--
ZA
what we should do is think of our own sins and confess them, study the Bible regularly and learn much at church and then, as much as we are able, help those around us.
if we do this with the help of our spiritual advisor/ father of confession then whoever is advising us can see if we are in fact becoming like the other person instead of being a good influence on them, then, we may have to keep our distance for a while.
i think we can't generalise and say 'we should always stay friends with the difficult person' or 'we should always stay away'.
i think, if you pray about the situation and try to give God the glory and ask other friends for help, then God will reward your compassion and care.
People who do not know God NEED LOVE. That's all they need. Being patient with someone IS a form expressing love. Not criticising them, nor teaching them anything is also good. They need a friend.
After today's sermon, I felt motivated and inspired to love beyond boundaries.
However, I do not see this sermon applying to your situation. I see the verse "Do not throw your precious stones before pigs" applying to your situation. Really. Your friend ALREADY is a Christian. He is already baptised, and practicing. This is a worry!! We should be growing in TRUTH and HUMILITY...
Above all, we should not criticise one another, yet , with love , draw the attention to others - the same way that Christ attracted the Samarian Woman's attention about her infidelity in having 5 husbands. With all modesty, with all the kindness and love in the world, he drew her attention to her sin. You have done the same, and he has rejected your correction. Above all, he knows Christ. There is a problem here. Why isn't the Holy Spirit convicting his heart? What is going on? Why isn't this working with him? The reason is that unless he prays for God's mercy to help him with this sin, your prayers will not have any effect. You can perhaps pray that HE PRAYS for God's mercy in helping him with this sin, but he needs to reach a point where HE WANTS TO CHANGE.
Finally, concerning you:
The Bible says: "Love your neighbour as yourself"
It doesn't say "Love your neighbour MORE than yourself". You love your neighbour MORE than yourself where you end up lowering your own self esteem and sinning in helping him to stop sinning. That is not right.
I was thinking about the verse "turn the other cheek" - and tried to understand what God wants from us. After reading the Bible, and reading all the different translations, I realised that they all have one thing in common:
Each translation says "offer" the other Cheek.
The keyword here is to "offer" the other cheek. It doesn't say "if someone slaps you on one cheek, let him slap you on the other". No!
When you "offer" the other cheek, I can really imagine the sitaution: how humbling it must be for the person to slap you a 2nd time when you offer it. But there's no gain if they slap you, and you just let them slap you.
In fact, this is what our Church fathers have said about this:
Christ said "if someone slaps you on your right cheek, offer him the left also".
In order to be slapped on your right cheek, the person would have had to slap you from behind. So, you'd have to turn around and face him (and deal with the problem) - which is apparently what you've already done.
More than this, you are not depending on God's Grace, you are depending on your own good intentions. Why?
What is wrong with telling him "I love you, and Im not perfect, NO ONE is perfect, but your consistent lying really hurts me. It makes me feel low, and its as if you treat me as if I have the intelligence of a 2 year old, so I've told you, and you still keep on doing it. This hurts me so much, I cannot be your friend until you deal with this issue. If you need help, I can pray for you, and help you, but if you INSIST on it, it means you want to be that way".
What is wrong with that??
It is clear that you are very fervent and zealous in your faith, and I commend you for that. I pray that God continues to strengthen you as you journey towards Him, which you clearly do so voluntarily and happily. I am also glad that the sermon that you heard today provided you with the energy to want to go out and immediately practice that which has fallen onto your ears, as the seeds of the Word of the Lord fall on good soil.
Allow me to present a couple of verses from the Gospel of John: "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" (John 13:34-35). I certainly agree with you that "love your neighbor as you love yourself" is a true commandment, provided since the times of the Old Testament. Christ, though, in presenting us with the way that we should live as true Christian men calls us to a higher order in a new commandment: not only are we to love those who are around us as much as we love ourselves, but truly, we are to love them even more than ourselves; we are to love them as God Himself loves us. My own love to myself may be flawed, but the perfect Love with which God Loves us is true and complete, and this is what we are called to show those who are around us. I do not personally see how doing something like this would lead one into sin, as it is a commandment of God, who strengthens us in our persevering journey towards Him, guiding our footsteps on the path of righteousness which He has revealed to us. If one does something with the love of God acting within the act, then the appearance of compromising one's own self-esteem by being lowered in others eyes is only that: an appearance. There is great strength to this, as God empowers those who follow His commandments, not out of obligation but out of true love.
One will also begin to realize as they become more immersed within the service of the Church, in serving youth in particular, that there are people who tend to have a tremendous struggle with particular sins. Simply because they are part of the Church does not mean that they are shielded from these struggles; similarly, it is through the Mystery of Repentance and the subsequent Confession that we renew that which we were endowed with in the Mysteries of Baptism and Chrismation. Some people need a tremendous amount of help; yes, it is important that we pray to God and ask for His Grace and guidance in helping those people around us, but it is also important to realize that God may be using you as the instrument to effect this change. As such, it is of great importance that we help those who are around us when we are capable of doing so; I speak in terms of capability because some people may not be within that realm of service and responsibility to do so, or may be too young to address such issues adequately without the help of older servants and such. Even the older servants rest on each other's advice.
We must continue to strive to bring people closer to God. It is not a magical key which we employ that we attempt to turn in a lock once and if it does not unlock, we simply walk away. This in itself is a struggle. It may take years to see an effective change. What is important is that we are honest in ourselves to ensure that in doing so, we ourselves are not brought into sin as a result. Sometimes this means that we will distance ourselves from the people, but I believe that it is more important for us to simply be consciously aware of such a risk and avoid sinning subsequently at all costs.
Let us remember the words in the epistle of James: "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins" (James 5:19-20). Note that he is addressing Christians, Christians who interact with other Christians who, having received the truth, have fallen away, and the reward of bringing them back into the faith. If it was a simple task, surely the reward would not be so great, namely that of saving our brother's soul from death. It is in the love that we show our brothers and sisters that they will begin to experience and see the love of God. We are called to be lights to the world, not emanating our own light, but reflecting the light of the True Light, our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, who displayed true Love when He came for us, condescending to our level in order to allow us to rise with Him.
Pray for my weaknesses,
childoforthodoxy
I'm glad you think it is best for this person to be long suffering - that's good for anyone, but - for me, my advice is based on thing alone:
FRIENDSHIP.
Friendship is the love of commonality. Does this person also lie? Is lying a good basis for friendship? That's not right. I depend on my friends, and we are honest with each other. We do not lie. You are asking them to be friends with someone who does not respect them, and then telling them to be long suffering. This is not their brother or sister or cousin. You can choose friends.
I have quoted scriptures, and even from the fathers: Turning the other cheek doesn't mean allowing someone to walk over you!
ChildofOrthodoxy, I respectfully disagree. But I honestly asked elders in my Church before posting, and they insisted that this is "no friendship".
It is not a friendship at all.
I’m sorry I haven’t been posting anything in the past few days; I am trying to reflect on what you guys have written. Thank you so much for all your replies, my friends and I really appreciate any guidance we may receive to solve this particular struggle.
Before posting any comments on Tasbeha, my close friends and I unanimously agreed that we have to stand by Mister X’s side no matter what. We knew that something had to be done...we just did not know what exactly. Even now, we still remain unsure regarding the exact method of approaching this. Reading through the comments, it was not difficult for me to see that there are differing opinions going around. Initially, when I wrote the first message, I said that I will tell you the story in a “nutshell”. The fact that I have reduced the lifelong struggle of Mister X to a couple of paragraphs may be the reason why opinions differ. Let me just comment on a few posts...this may give additional important information about the issue at hand.
ZanAmrikai said the following:
“I want to ring in here from a psychiatric/psychological point of view. I think it is often difficult for believers to differentiate sin and a personality disorder. I understand this. However, there are such things as the latter, and your friend seems to have behavior that is quite in keeping with there being an underlying disorder.”
I think it is exceedingly important to keep this in mind. Mister X has a disorder, a serious one for that matter. In my first post, I told you an example of a lie that Mister X said about serving in Africa; this did indeed paint a picture of the seriousness of the disorder; however, this is ONLY the tip of the iceberg regarding the amount of lies Mister X has completely made up. There are hundreds, even thousands of lies ranging from the littlest things like what Mr. X ate on a particular day to huge things like serving in Africa.
When I read the symptoms of the pathological lying disorder (PLD), it was as if I read an exact detailed description of that person. Mister X is sick in a way and we need to help him. Just like Child of Orthodoxy said:
“If I have broken my arm, would I cut it off, or would I put it into a cast, allow it to heal, and have it reintegrate fully back into my normal every day actions? Surely, it would be foolish to cut it off. Why would I do this for a member of the Body of Christ?”
Lying is the essence of PLD, it is uncontrollable and unintentional in a certain way. If you guys had a friend who had cancer and as a result of that particular cancer would snap on you every time you were with him, would you abandon your sick friend? Especially if you know that he is sick?
I highly doubt it. Why? Because you would know that it is the cancer who is provoking this type of behaviour and not your friend. I know you probably all think this example is extreme, but I promise you this is a valid comparison. I think many people sometimes overlook the seriousness of personality/mental disorders. People who have schizophrenia will have a bunch of unpleasant behaviours but this is no reason for you to turn your back on them as it is the schizophrenia disease that is enabling this behaviour and not the person itself. Now Mister X does not have schizophrenia but I still believe that this comparison is definitely valid. He needs help.
Zoxassi, your right, our friendship with Mister X might not be based on truth. However, we have known him long enough to be able to say that we see the real person behind the dark clouds, behind the tonne of lies that are said to us every day. We know how good a person he is. Even if he lies about many things, if you need anything for any matter he will genuinely help you out, out of sincerity and truth and not out of lie. I know this is hard to comprehend... you really need to be in our exact shoes to get a feel of who he really is.
Zoxassi said the following:
“What is wrong with telling him "I love you, and Im not perfect, NO ONE is perfect, but your consistent lying really hurts me. It makes me feel low, and its as if you treat me as if I have the intelligence of a 2 year old, so I've told you, and you still keep on doing it. This hurts me so much, I cannot be your friend until you deal with this issue. If you need help, I can pray for you, and help you, but if you INSIST on it, it means you want to be that way".
What is wrong with that??”
Zoxassi, what you are suggesting is approaching Mister X extremely humbly and kindly and you have put it in the nicest way possible. We have thought about this many times. Saying these things may be ideal with a person who does not have PLD, but in this case, this will be his exact reply: “ LIEEEEEEES???WHAT LIES??? (and then you would confront him on a particular lie) THATS TRUEE!! I WAS THERE THAT DAY, ASK MISS Y SHE SAW ME THERE AND WE HUNG OUT TOGETHER (now you would tell him that you already spoke to Miss Y and she denied it) SHE IS LYING SHE JUST DOES NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT SHE WENT THERE blablabla....” then he would get angry and speak behind your back.
If you read about PLD, this is the way most people with this disorder act when being confronted. We are still unsure about what to do... I have not finished writing everything I wanted to...but I have to go, I guess I’ll try to complete this tonight or tomorrow. In the meantime, if anyone has anything on their minds..please share it as it may be of help.
Thank you all so much for replying....we really appreciate it. Pray for us.
remember the problem is God's and you are helping Him (not the other way round!)
so pray, do what you can, and leave the rest to God.
i need to give myself that advice too, i worry more than i should ;)
we will pray.
remember the problem is God's and you are helping Him (not the other way round!)
so pray, do what you can, and leave the rest to God.
i need to give myself that advice too, i worry more than i should ;)
I was in the same position as you DaughterOfChrist, my friend, at the time, I still love and wish him the best, but he lost a lot of respect amongst his peers. Anyone that was his friend also ended up getting hurt because people couldn't help but judge me according to my friends.
Anyway, put it this way: why don't you ask abouna? This is what he's there for. He knows you and him personally, and will advise you. Or a Sunday School Teacher.
I did ask the elders in my CHurch (casually) about this situation, and they felt it was definately not a wise friendship, and you being friends with him will not help him, nor you.
But then, we do not know your exact situation, so I can pray for you, but abouna who knows you will be able to tell you exactly what the wisest thing to do is.
Take care
We knew that something had to be done...we just did not know what exactly. Even now, we still remain unsure regarding the exact method of approaching this.
There are some psychological strategies people use called defense mechanisms to cope with reality and to maintain his/her self -image intact. In the case of your friend, they are
Distortion - a gross reshaping of external reality to meet internal needs.
Denial - a refusal to accept external reality because it is too threatening. If you try to confront Mr. x he will deny the lies so I would not be keen to confront him.
Delusional Projection - frank delusions about external reality, usually of a persecutory nature. If you keep insisting to disclose his motive, Mr. x will assume you are his enemy.
He needs someone with authority to understand the underlying causes and help him without making him feel threatened.
Mark 12:30-31
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Try this if possible (the long hard narrow path):
*Pray together on a daily basis (even for a few minutes before a selected activity).
*With God's Grace, gradually engage together as a group in practical social charity activities, help the poor, feel their needs, their pain, also feel their happiness when you support them. Behave as servants (or become so). Do not drop this work half-way, with time alleviating others' difficulties will counteract any moral problems and anti social aspects. You know your friend, so you're the best one to know how to convince him.
*Make use of your friend's vivid imagination to put down a nice way for helping others, e.g. the homeless, needy children, orphans etc. - but first test together the practicability and your possibilities, and together rectify plans while remembering to always respect each other and each one's preferences.
*Discovering self esteem: make your friend find out slowly and alone he's very useful as he appreciates doing good things to others, that's the reward (but avoid overloading him).
*Though your friend seeks self-attention, explain after some time not to expect to be always accepted by the needy persons you help (the reactions of those helped vary a lot). Work as a group, keep good distance from dangerous situations and dangerous people. Learn to seek socially useful advice.
* One important thing: no one is to become a 'leader' but everyone's responsible.
May the Lord grant you His blessings.
GBU