[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=9121.msg114312#msg114312 date=1273560034] u know, sometimes u get shy in the presence of clergy, esp if they are very busy. i know i am sometimes shy even of my own bishop because he is so busy and tired and everyone wants to talk to him, i feel like i want to give him a break! so i understand, zoxsasi, i also think i will go up and say hello, but sometimes i don't! btw i hope 2 meet u next time 2! ;D
Hmmm, I understand the shyness part. I think,we should not be shy when it comes to meeting Church fathers and bishops.I always think,they are the best to rely on for prayers and spritual matters for they are the closest people to God, so I try to use every possible opportunity to receive their blessings.Of course, I take into account the situation as well,like seeing lots of people trying to get to talk to them.But not always.If holy Bishops like Anba Elia of Khartoum are in town,you would not like to miss them ;).In the case of this festival,I would not think to leave without at least saying hello to Fr Peter whom we all know from here ,for the chance is rare. Having missed such an opportunity,I can not expect him to remember the person who held the door open for him and others.
I thought there were too few people in the festival.Maybe we should fill it up next year or in the years to come.Looking forward to meeting you too..I am not shy :D
I'm not shy at all, I just felt that Fr. peter had more important things to do than to talk to me on that particular day. It was a day to celebrate our Orthodox faith in all its cultural diversities. He was busy talking to some other member of the clergy, and I had the blessing of at least opening the door for him.
I tried to say hi, but it was not practical at that time.
Then, being married with kids, I had to take care of my family also. So, I left.
This is a big shame as there were many pressing issues I wanted to discuss with Fr. Peter concerning our faith, and problems within our Church, and I never got the chance. I wanted to talk about the importance for Church servants taking a certificate in theology from our Coptic College in Stevenage to help them discern between anything they may hear outside the Church or even within the Church and assume it is correct orthodox doctrine.
I did enjoy Burger King, but I thought I'd return back to the Church, but it never happened. Never mind.
Yes, there were too few there. Even though it was a blessing.
Next year we need to try and make sure that more bishops are able to clear their diaries, and that laity from Oriental Orthodox congregations all over make the effort to come. I know that even after having contacted clergy quite a few times there were laity who still didn't know about the event either at all or only at the last moment. We had first agreed the date in the autumn of last year.
The British Orthodox had people from as far as Portsmouth and Doncaster, and it would be easy enough to arrange coaches even for people to come as congregations. I am not sure which Coptic congregations were represented. I would love to see the cathedral completely full next year.
Yes, there were too few there. Even though it was a blessing.
Next year we need to try and make sure that more bishops are able to clear their diaries, and that laity from Oriental Orthodox congregations all over make the effort to come. I know that even after having contacted clergy quite a few times there were laity who still didn't know about the event either at all or only at the last moment. We had first agreed the date in the autumn of last year.
The British Orthodox had people from as far as Portsmouth and Doncaster, and it would be easy enough to arrange coaches even for people to come as congregations. I am not sure which Coptic congregations were represented. I would love to see the cathedral completely full next year.
Father Peter
Fr Peter, I do agree that it is always a great blessing when we do things for the glory of God.Where two or three are gathered together in My Name, I will be amidst them, says the Lord.
I am not sure how the date for the festival was set. For example, a friend of mine who studies in Bristol was looking forward to attend the Oriental festival this year, but he could not. I understand his reasons. As you may be aware,this time of the year, in the UK tough exams are in progress. April and May 3 years ago, I myself was in the same situation in London. If it were today, I too would miss a great opportunity to take part in this unique festival. It is virtually impossible for students at this time of the year to do something else other than to study hard. Some colleges like Bristol are very demanding. Then, we have the month of June which is traditionally reserved for O's and A's exams. This may partly explain why few people were in attendance. I think, the youth would benefit much more from such festival.
Having said this, I was wondering about any evangelization ministry of the BOC in the english speaking world such us the US,Canada and Australia. Due to common ancesteral ,cultural and lingual ties, it appears to me that the BOC is in a better position to evangelise and succeed in these countries.Has there been any efforts along these lines?
You make some useful and helpful points. The date was set at a Council meeting last year, and the main factors were avoiding Lent and Pascha on the one hand, and Pentecost on the other. This may not perhaps be the best means of selecting the best date.
The British Orthodox Church only has a mandate to be a local diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate here in the UK. And we do not have resources to do more in any case. I guess we are always concerned to be interested in, and supportive of, members of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate doing evangelism anywhere in the world. I hope many here know Victor Beshir and his inspiring activities in developing opportunities for Coptic Orthodox to take part in evangelism and see it as a normal Orthodox Christian activity.
Hezekiel brings a great point across, that the BOC would be more suited say than the COC in english speaking countries.. Not to say the COC isnt good enough! It is just from what i read a little more relaxed and could engage youth more! Does that mean you cannot spread the BOC further than the UK? How would you as a priest find it if say you travelled down here to Australia and prayed a liturgy in the coc?
what i would like to see is EVERY orthodox Christian reaching out to the communities around them. it is time that we as copts (and also as other Christians on these forums) reach out to our communities and worship in the language of the countries we are in more often (ok, don't eliminate arabic altogether, there are those non-arabs who need to learn it for their future travel).
we should prioritise Bible study and have weekend Bible studies where people can invite their non-orthodox friends. if your priest does not speak english well, don't worry, just get someone to translate, and add in english songs at the end, or the beginning. this can be on a sat afternoon, sun evening, weekday evening etc and put up a poster outside the church advertising the time.
we all need to work hard at this! don't wait for someone else to do it. ask permission to get together with your friends and start a monthly or weekly group to pray the agpeya or Bible study, together with a church servant, or reader/singer who has the blessing of abouna to lead a small prayer group in the church. don't worry if no visitors come at first, keep praying and studying and God will lead in those who need to hear the message.
if this is hard in your church, you can do like my friend did, he just invites his work colleagues about every 2 weeks to his house (athiests and people from other religions) and they drink coffee, read a short Bible passage and he answers their many questions about what he believes. if you are scared about this, still invite your friends around and if the questions are too hard just go to abouna with the questions and give the answer to that person next week. it may be good to warn abouna in advance you're going to do this, so he can be ready with answers.
the fields are white ready for harvest, pray to the Lord that He will send more labourers!
There are some advantages for the BOC in reaching British people, but there are also disadvantages. Our resources are much smaller, for instance, so we cannot do as much as we would like. I have to work to earn a living because my congregation is presently too small to support me.
But there is a sense in which Coptic worship is somewhat foreign to British people. I like to be with people from all ethnic backgrounds in our Oriental Orthodox Church - we ARE one Church - but I am culturally always slightly at a distance, though not necessarily in spiritual terms. I do, generally, need to know the words I am praying. And this has ALWAYS been the way in which the Orthodox Church has grown.
Copts do not worship in Aramaic, Ethiopians do not worship in Coptic or Greek, English people do not worship most easily in a foreign language either. Music is also a subtle cultural thing. There are some recordings I have heard of Coptic chant which is almost familar to a Western ear, but there are others which sound too Arabic and Middle Eastern.
I am not sure that there is anything else within the Coptic Christian culture which is problematic for evangelism, and even these elements are not always shop stoppers for people. But if the chant were Westernised so that it was the same tune but for a Western ear, and in good English, then everything else within our Orthodox worship becomes accessible.
Evangelistic Bible studies, under priestly supervision, are something which every congregation could conduct. I am not in favour of Bible Studies being held apart from close priestly supervision, and ideally being led by a priest or senior deacon (that doesn't mean they have to say everything). Prayer from the Agpeya in English is accessible and useful in an evangelistic context. Some congregations have used the Liturgy of the Word as a means of remaining Orthodox and yet reaching out. Good (I mean broadcast) quality films in English is another method. Talks on various subjects by Orthodox, perhaps from various backgrounds, who have good spoken English. With testimonies from English speaking converts. Victor Beshir has many ideas and is encouraging wonderful activities through the Coptic Evangelistic Fellowship of North America.
What is required, it seems to me, (apart from much constant prayer and the working of the Holy Spirit) is to make our Orthodoxy accessible to people 'where they are' and in the language they ordinarily use. They need to see that Orthodoxy is meaningful and transformational for people like them. And they need to be taught about our Lord Jesus Christ, much more than exotic architecture, strange music and unusual art. If they seek Jesus Christ then Orthodoxy will become a home for them. If they are interested only in the externals of our faith then they will not take root and will move on with the next interesting idea.
Nothing at all prevents Coptic Orthodox from doing evangelism. It is what we should all be concerned about and all seeking to participate in. It does not mean that we should all do the work of an evangelist. Just inviting people to something like the Orthodox Festival can be entirely natural and evangelistic. We do need to put ourselves in other's shoes. We do need to make sure that in our evangelism we are not making what is important to us, in terms of culture, an obstacle to people who are interested in Orthodoxy but not interested in becoming an Egyptian, or an Ethiopian, or an Armenian etc.
In every country in the ancient world Orthodox people came and brought the Orthodox Gospel and helped to establish a Church that was just right for those people and that place in terms of culture. That is the very reason why there is a Coptic Orthodox Church, and not an Aramaic Orthodox Church in Egypt. That is why I am most comfortable as a member of the British Orthodox Church diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. That is why French people have the French Coptic Orthodox Church etc etc. But this does not mean that the Coptic Church cannot become rooted in British and Western Culture, but just that if it is to properly engage in mission then it does need to support daughter congregations and communities which are English through and through in terms of culture, while being rooted in Coptic faith, doctrine and spirituality. There is plenty of scope for both. There is scope for Arabic language liturgies and Coptic language liturgies and English language liturgies. There is scope for daughter congregations who worship entirely in English but come together with a mother congregation to worship in a mixed language liturgy on feast days for instance as a mark of the common faith which is shared.
There is a British Orthodox priest in Australia, Father Gregory.
IIRC there are two new English language only missions just started in the US. It seems to me that this is the way forward. There is no need for an either/or, but each community should worship in the language(s) that best suit it. I am sure that in the US itself there will eventually be Spanish language Coptic missions, as there are in Mexico. But this would not require all Arabic and Coptic language worship to cease, there is room for all if we are humble and do not seek to make language and culture a matter of controversy.
Hey everyone, I finally got around to writing a summary of the Oriental Orthodox Festival on my livejournal if anyone wants to have a read. It is a bit late, but better late than never. http://dan-mm.livejournal.com/1374.html
Daniel, thanks for posting your journal, wow, it really is a shame I couldn't attend this festival because it looks just wonderful... But hopefully I will in the years to come, we could all go as the 'Tasbeha-delegation' lol
Thank you for your clarification on the missionary actvity of the BOC. I truely did not know the great challenges that face the BOC. I merley thought, the BOC should be a great position, since its foundation goes back to the 19th century (If I am not mistaken). My info is that the BOC had been around for a long time, until it decided to join the COC Patriarchate in 1994(?).Be it as it may, I think the BOC is the best thing that happened to the COC in the last few decades.I believe,the BOC can do wonders evangelising and ministering to the english speaking world.
For example ,here is an excerpt from an article written by Fr Pishoy Salama ( Brother of HG Bishop David)
"It is amazing to hear the story of preaching Christianity to Ethiopia in the fourth century and how St. Athanasius the Apostolic (20th Pope of Alexandria enthroned from 328A.D. – 373 A.D.) had a vision which was both theologically and culturally sound to propagate the faith in this land. When Frumentius and Aedesius were washed to shore after their shipwreck on the Ethiopian coast, they were taken to the royal palace where they became the king’s private secretary and cupbearer respectively . Frumentius became the private teacher of the child prince Ezan, the son of King Ella Amida, and had the opportunity to teach Prince Ezan basic tenants of Christianity. After a while, the two brothers Frumentius and Aedesius were permitted to travel back to their homeland, Tyre in Phoenicia (modern Lebanon), went through the Nile and stopped in Egypt to meet with St. Athanasius the Apostolic. There, they requested of the saint to send missionaries to Ethiopia where the ground was fertile for the indigenous peoples to accept the faith. St. Athanasius in his wisdom wanted to ordain someone who would know the true Orthodox faith, be familiar with the language, culture, and traditions of the land. Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, he ordained St. Frumentius, who became known as Bishop Salama, as the first bishop and missionary to Ethiopia. The newly ordained bishop preached the Orthodox faith, theology, and dogma but permitted the people to express them in a way which was culturally relevant. It is still refreshing to witness an Ethiopian service that is embedded with their native cultural signs, musical instruments, and language while being assured that they are one with us in the faith and we can both share in the most holy sacraments
St Athansius had many options to ordain other Bishops for a ministry in Ethiopa. But he wisely chose someone who already knows the land and whom the people of Ethiopa are already familiar with.As we know,the rest is history. I think, that HH Pope Shenouda has the same wisom and vision as St Athansius. I believe, if there had been few more Popes in the calibre of St Athanasius, maybe the Ethiopian church would not have sought independece friom the COC during the time of Emperor Haile Selaise. One aspect is that,the Ethiopians resent the fact that the COC had appointed only an Egyptian national, someone who neither speaks the language nor had proir knowsdlge of the land as their Bishop, but never an Ethiopian national. However, looking at the success of Coptic missions in Africa, I see a St Athanisius in the leadership of His Holiness Pope Shenouda. In light of this, I strongly think,that the BOC is best suited to approach the English speaking world to bring them the true faith of our Lord. Maybe not now or anytime soon, but not withstanding the challenges , it definately must be one of the top future plans.With God everything is possible.
Finally,given that you also have to work to support yourself,-and I do not know how you manage to be here with us to attend to our needs and we do certainly seem to take it for granted, thank you for your spritual guidance .May the LORD be loyal to you in return and reward you with his unfailing love.
In the mean time, please let us know of any fund raising events and activities to help support your parish.
As I was reading the last post I came across much distorted information on the article written by Fr. Pishoy Salama and I couldn’t resist but post a reply. What gets me the most is that people, be it a bishop or a layman, write any thing that supports their idea with out doing a thorough research on the topic they are writing about. For instance, After King Ella Amida passed away; it was not just on prince (Ezana) who became a king, it was the twin brothers (Ezana and Seizana. After they were baptized, they were called Abraha and Atsbaha). Another distorted fact is that when King Alla Amida died the two brothers (Frumentius and Aedesius) were given the freedom to do whatever they wanted but the twin kings were very young (in their teens) that the kings mother asked if Frumentius and Aedesius help here in guiding her sons since they have been in the palace when her husband, King Ella Amida, was alive and they have a very good knowledge of how to run the kingdom. Both Frumentius and Aedesius did not accept the request from the queen. Aedesius decided to go back to his country but Frumentius stayed with the twin kings teaching them about Christianity and assisting the queen guiding the young kings. There is one important thing to note. That is, Christianity was preached by the assistant of the queen of Ethiopia in the first century as it is written in the Bible (In the Gosple of Luke) and practiced amongst the common people. The only thing that was lacking was there was no Holy sacrament because there were no ordained priests and deacons. The two kings decide to request a bishop so that priests and deacons will be ordained and the Holly Sacrament will be administered in churches. To do this they have to have some one who knows Christianity as well as the Arabic language very well and the kings decided to send St. Frumentius to Alexandria. Through the Will of God, St. Athanasius decided to teach St. Frumentius for five years every thing he needed to know to qualify him to be a bishop, ordained him as bishop Selama and sent him back to Ethiopia. Another distorted history is, I quote: “It is still refreshing to witness an Ethiopian service that is embedded with their native cultural signs, musical instruments, and language while being assured that they are one with us in the faith and we can both share in the most holy sacraments.” Fr Pishoy Salama This is just misleading information. The signs, Hymnal instruments (we do not call it musical instruments!) that are being used to this day came out of the Bible itself. The hymns we use in the church are guided by the Holly Spirit. As a matter of fact, the church is a source of development of anything in Ethiopia including the music and musical instrument, not vise versa. Speaking of the language, as I said before, the people were Christians already with a well developed sophisticated language so that they did not need any other language to borrow. The other fact that is overlooked is that Judaism was a widely accepted religion in the country they used to have Synagogues around the country to worship God. These Synagogues are now converted to churches during the twin kings and are still being in use to this day in different part of the country. I hope that this post does not offend any body but it would be nice to post any supporting ideas with caution.
I find it very important to let you know Fr Pishoy Salama whom I know is not the type of a person who distorts facts for any reason. I take offense at your characterization. If he made any mistakes,then they were honest mistakes and not purposive action to mis-inform.If you find some untruth in the story, it is not his fault. It might interest you to know that the source of his information is derived from "Ethiopian Christianity: A History of the Christian Church in Ethiopia".
You write: [quote author=Tewahedo link=topic=9121.msg115429#msg115429 date=1276275908] There is one important thing to note. That is, Christianity was preached by the assistant of the queen of Ethiopia in the first century as it is written in the Bible (In the Gosple of Luke) and practiced amongst the common people.
Since you speak of facts , may I ask you what historical evidences exist that supports the claim that the assistant of the Queen of Ethiopia refers to the Ethiopia of today? In other words, what evidence is there that shows biblical Ethiopia is the same location as modern day Ethiopia?
The signs, Hymnal instruments (we do not call it musical instruments!) that are being used to this day came out of the Bible itself. The hymns we use in the church are guided by the Holly Spirit. As a matter of fact, the church is a source of development of anything in Ethiopia including the music and musical instrument, not vise versa. "
very important point to note .Thank you tewahdo.I don't think many people realize the spiritual meanings of our kebero ,tsenasil,mequamia the movement etc... if you are well rounded regarding this please explain the holy meaning embedded in it .
Cool down man. You don’t need to be worked up like this. I am as much of a Christian as you are. I know how much of a respect, let alone a bishop, an ordinary human being deserves. I did not characterize the bishop in any ways but I have commented on the quote you used on you earlier post. If you want to know historical facts all you have to do is go to Axum where the arc of the covenant is placed. There are many books that are written in Geez (the ancient Ethiopian language) that support the fact I posted earlier. This is the place where the twin kings were ruling the country from, this is the place where St. Bishop Selama started teaching, ordaining deacons and priests and later went out to the rest of the country. Just so you know that St Bishop Selama was a Syrian origin, not Lebanese. He was also a deacon before he came to the country. Even The twin kings themselves were martyred in the southern part of the country while preaching the Gospel. There is a church built after them in the northern part of the country. All this information is written in a book called Kebra Nagast and other religious books. As you mentioned, the source of information si derived from "Ethiopian Christianity: A History of the Christian Church in Ethiopia". But if you go to the website and see the sources, all of them were written by foreigners. I have cut and paste the sources used below. Regarding your question, it seams to me that you want to take the conversation to a different direction which I don’t have time for. I have cut and paste the sources used for the article below.
This page was based on the following sources, which you can consult for more detailed information: Aziz S. Atiya, History of Eastern Christianity. Notre Dame, Indiana: University of Notre Dame Press, 1968 pp 146-66 Adrian Hastings, The Church in Africa: 1450-1950. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1994. Ch 1, 4, 6. Elizabeth Isichei, A History of Christianity in Africa from Antiquity to the Present. London: SPCK, 1995. pp. Encyclopedia Britannica s.v. "Ethiopia" Links: General: http://www.unesco.org/whc/exhibits/afr_rev/africa-l.htm http://www.tbwt.com/profiles/ethiopia.htm This is a secular site with a brief history of Ethiopia and a nice map which includes the major religious sites. http://www.casema.net/~spaansen/ http://web.mit.edu/afs/athena.mit.edu/user/r/e/redingtn/www/yared/eth.html Regarding your question, it seams to me that you want to take the conversation to a different direction which I don’t have time for. Either you can see our conversation in a productive way. Once again if I offended you I ask you forgiveness in God’s name. One thing I want to say is that any thing that is found on the internet is not correct.
Had you used a different word other than "distort", I would not have been bothered to say anything.I understand distortion to mean wilful misrepresentation of the truth.
[quote author=Tewahedo link=topic=9121.msg115435#msg115435 date=1276295306] If you want to know historical facts all you have to do is go to Axum where the arc of the covenant is placed.
I am not trying to steer off the topic into a different direction.I asked you a simple question to see what you mean when you accuse others of not having the facts on the ground before they say anything. Now I see what you call 'Historical facts',when you say.
[quote author=Tewahedo link=topic=9121.msg115435#msg115435 date=1276295306] If you want to know historical facts all you have to do is go to Axum where the arc of the covenant is placed.
History is based on facts. There is NO evidence that suggests the Ark is in Ethiopia! The world has no evidence of that. Neither the Bible nor other important manuscripts tell us anything about the Ark going to Ethiopia. If anything, I and the world do not buy a story that is only told by the Ethiopian church about a Queen of Sheba visiting king Solomon resulting in the birth of a son who had brought the ark with him to Ethiopia. Finally, NO ONE has seen the Ark. So facts please, if that is what you expect honorable priest like Fr Pishoy Salama to do.
All this information is written in a book called Kebra Nagast and other religious books
If Kebra Nagast is the book called the Glory of kings, I have read it. I find the book is to be nothing, but a collection of fairy tales ala Harry Potter.If I remember correctly,it is the same book that speaks of Ethiopian Kings descending from the dynasty of King David and Solomon.It is the book that details how the Ark of Covenant was stolen from Jerusalem by Sheba's son. It is important to note this book was written around the 13th century to support a new dynasty of powerful Abyssinian clan and in attempt to legitimitize their devine right to the throne by claiming direct ancestory to the anointed kings of Israel. There is no independent FACTUAL evidences to your assertions! Therefore,the book is not qualified to be called historical.
Show me Scientific findings that fully corroborate ,even remotely,any of your claims!
This is just misleading information. The signs, Hymnal instruments (we do not call it musical instruments!) that are being used to this day came out of the Bible itself
. You are reading too much into it. It is not a grave mistake ,and certainly 'not misleading' to say "musical instruments" instead of "hymnal instruments'.Hymnal instrumenst could be musical instruments one way or the other.Stringed instruments like the harp,lyre ,trumpets,lute are musical instruments. The triangle is a musical percussion instrument.I dont see any reason why you find it offensive.
Look, Whether you and the world believe that the ARC is in Ethiopia is not my problem. You have your free will to accept it or not. But what is sad is that when you say “If anything, I and the world do not buy a story that is only told by the Ethiopian church about a Queen of Sheba visiting king Solomon resulting in the birth of a son who had brought the ark with him to Ethiopia. Finally, NO ONE has seen the Ark.” It indicates that the Ethiopian priests and monks including our Bishops are liars. Do you know that St Tekle Himanot whom the Coptic Church accepts as a saint (I hope you also accept him as a saint) also believed that Ethiopia has the Arc. I know that our religious leaders are not telling us just a story. If you don’t believe that the Arc is in the ancient city of Axum that is your choice. No one is forcing you to do so. Neither I nor any Ethiopian will care whether you believe it or not. In my church upbringing, we are taught to call things appropriately.
You are reading too much into it. It is not a grave mistake ,and certainly 'not misleading' to say "musical instruments" instead of "hymnal instruments'.
Hymns are not songs or music, and hymnal instruments are not musical instruments because every thing that is used in the church has religious meanings. I am not worried about what the world calls them. Since the church does not call them musical instruments I don’t call them either because I follow my church teachings. Speaking of the links, if you search the title of the article you quoted in your previous article online, you will find the website and the links.
You guys, i just wanna know what difference does it make where the ARC is? Nothing. Exactly. Don't get yourselves worked up on a matter that will not determine whether we go to Heaven or hell. Just focus on your bible reading and prayers. I know people are curious to know if the ARC is really there, but we don't need to call monks and priests liers, and we certainly don't need to get angry at each other about this matter. This was a thread about the "Oriental Orthodox Festival in the UK" not about where the ARC is. Please, just stop this foolish behavior, it really grieves me sometimes on Tasbeha.org when people get into heated arguments about things that don't even matter. Just so you all know, NOBODY KNOWS WHERE IT IS. JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE SAY IT IS IN AXUM DOESN'T MEAN IT IS AND IT ALSO DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT.
Comments
i wasn't there
:o
but don't tell anyone
;)
OK.. I won't tell anyone, but do you realise that you've just told everyone you were not there yourself??
Fr. Peter, I've got loads of videos from the event, I'll post them up on my facebook page.
Thanks
u know, sometimes u get shy in the presence of clergy, esp if they are very busy. i know i am sometimes shy even of my own bishop because he is so busy and tired and everyone wants to talk to him, i feel like i want to give him a break!
so i understand, zoxsasi, i also think i will go up and say hello, but sometimes i don't!
btw i hope 2 meet u next time 2! ;D
Hmmm, I understand the shyness part. I think,we should not be shy when it comes to meeting Church fathers and bishops.I always think,they are the best to rely on for prayers and spritual matters for they are the closest people to God, so I try to use every possible opportunity to receive their blessings.Of course, I take into account the situation as well,like seeing lots of people trying to get to talk to them.But not always.If holy Bishops like Anba Elia of Khartoum are in town,you would not like to miss them ;).In the case of this festival,I would not think to leave without at least saying hello to Fr Peter whom we all know from here ,for the chance is rare. Having missed such an opportunity,I can not expect him to remember the person who held the door open for him and others.
I thought there were too few people in the festival.Maybe we should fill it up next year or in the years to come.Looking forward to meeting you too..I am not shy :D
I'm not shy at all, I just felt that Fr. peter had more important things to do than to talk to me on that particular day. It was a day to celebrate our Orthodox faith in all its cultural diversities. He was busy talking to some other member of the clergy, and I had the blessing of at least opening the door for him.
I tried to say hi, but it was not practical at that time.
Then, being married with kids, I had to take care of my family also. So, I left.
This is a big shame as there were many pressing issues I wanted to discuss with Fr. Peter concerning our faith, and problems within our Church, and I never got the chance. I wanted to talk about the importance for Church servants taking a certificate in theology from our Coptic College in Stevenage to help them discern between anything they may hear outside the Church or even within the Church and assume it is correct orthodox doctrine.
I did enjoy Burger King, but I thought I'd return back to the Church, but it never happened. Never mind.
But you didn't say you were going.
Father Peter
Yes, there were too few there. Even though it was a blessing.
Next year we need to try and make sure that more bishops are able to clear their diaries, and that laity from Oriental Orthodox congregations all over make the effort to come. I know that even after having contacted clergy quite a few times there were laity who still didn't know about the event either at all or only at the last moment. We had first agreed the date in the autumn of last year.
The British Orthodox had people from as far as Portsmouth and Doncaster, and it would be easy enough to arrange coaches even for people to come as congregations. I am not sure which Coptic congregations were represented. I would love to see the cathedral completely full next year.
Father Peter
Hezekiel,
Yes, there were too few there. Even though it was a blessing.
Next year we need to try and make sure that more bishops are able to clear their diaries, and that laity from Oriental Orthodox congregations all over make the effort to come. I know that even after having contacted clergy quite a few times there were laity who still didn't know about the event either at all or only at the last moment. We had first agreed the date in the autumn of last year.
The British Orthodox had people from as far as Portsmouth and Doncaster, and it would be easy enough to arrange coaches even for people to come as congregations. I am not sure which Coptic congregations were represented. I would love to see the cathedral completely full next year.
Father Peter
Fr Peter, I do agree that it is always a great blessing when we do things for the glory of God.Where two or three are gathered together in My Name, I will be amidst them, says the Lord.
I am not sure how the date for the festival was set. For example, a friend of mine who studies in Bristol was looking forward to attend the Oriental festival this year, but he could not. I understand his reasons. As you may be aware,this time of the year, in the UK tough exams are in progress. April and May 3 years ago, I myself was in the same situation in London. If it were today, I too would miss a great opportunity to take part in this unique festival. It is virtually impossible for students at this time of the year to do something else other than to study hard. Some colleges like Bristol are very demanding. Then, we have the month of June which is traditionally reserved for O's and A's exams.
This may partly explain why few people were in attendance. I think, the youth would benefit much more from such festival.
Having said this, I was wondering about any evangelization ministry of the BOC in the english speaking world such us the US,Canada and Australia. Due to common ancesteral ,cultural and lingual ties, it appears to me that the BOC is in a better position to evangelise and succeed in these countries.Has there been any efforts along these lines?
You make some useful and helpful points. The date was set at a Council meeting last year, and the main factors were avoiding Lent and Pascha on the one hand, and Pentecost on the other. This may not perhaps be the best means of selecting the best date.
The British Orthodox Church only has a mandate to be a local diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate here in the UK. And we do not have resources to do more in any case. I guess we are always concerned to be interested in, and supportive of, members of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate doing evangelism anywhere in the world. I hope many here know Victor Beshir and his inspiring activities in developing opportunities for Coptic Orthodox to take part in evangelism and see it as a normal Orthodox Christian activity.
Father Peter
Hezekiel brings a great point across, that the BOC would be more suited say than the COC in english speaking countries.. Not to say the COC isnt good enough! It is just from what i read a little more relaxed and could engage youth more! Does that mean you cannot spread the BOC further than the UK? How would you as a priest find it if say you travelled down here to Australia and prayed a liturgy in the coc?
it is time that we as copts (and also as other Christians on these forums) reach out to our communities and worship in the language of the countries we are in more often (ok, don't eliminate arabic altogether, there are those non-arabs who need to learn it for their future travel).
we should prioritise Bible study and have weekend Bible studies where people can invite their non-orthodox friends. if your priest does not speak english well, don't worry, just get someone to translate, and add in english songs at the end, or the beginning. this can be on a sat afternoon, sun evening, weekday evening etc and put up a poster outside the church advertising the time.
we all need to work hard at this!
don't wait for someone else to do it.
ask permission to get together with your friends and start a monthly or weekly group to pray the agpeya or Bible study, together with a church servant, or reader/singer who has the blessing of abouna to lead a small prayer group in the church.
don't worry if no visitors come at first, keep praying and studying and God will lead in those who need to hear the message.
if this is hard in your church, you can do like my friend did, he just invites his work colleagues about every 2 weeks to his house (athiests and people from other religions) and they drink coffee, read a short Bible passage and he answers their many questions about what he believes. if you are scared about this, still invite your friends around and if the questions are too hard just go to abouna with the questions and give the answer to that person next week. it may be good to warn abouna in advance you're going to do this, so he can be ready with answers.
the fields are white ready for harvest, pray to the Lord that He will send more labourers!
There are some advantages for the BOC in reaching British people, but there are also disadvantages. Our resources are much smaller, for instance, so we cannot do as much as we would like. I have to work to earn a living because my congregation is presently too small to support me.
But there is a sense in which Coptic worship is somewhat foreign to British people. I like to be with people from all ethnic backgrounds in our Oriental Orthodox Church - we ARE one Church - but I am culturally always slightly at a distance, though not necessarily in spiritual terms. I do, generally, need to know the words I am praying. And this has ALWAYS been the way in which the Orthodox Church has grown.
Copts do not worship in Aramaic, Ethiopians do not worship in Coptic or Greek, English people do not worship most easily in a foreign language either. Music is also a subtle cultural thing. There are some recordings I have heard of Coptic chant which is almost familar to a Western ear, but there are others which sound too Arabic and Middle Eastern.
I am not sure that there is anything else within the Coptic Christian culture which is problematic for evangelism, and even these elements are not always shop stoppers for people. But if the chant were Westernised so that it was the same tune but for a Western ear, and in good English, then everything else within our Orthodox worship becomes accessible.
Evangelistic Bible studies, under priestly supervision, are something which every congregation could conduct. I am not in favour of Bible Studies being held apart from close priestly supervision, and ideally being led by a priest or senior deacon (that doesn't mean they have to say everything). Prayer from the Agpeya in English is accessible and useful in an evangelistic context. Some congregations have used the Liturgy of the Word as a means of remaining Orthodox and yet reaching out. Good (I mean broadcast) quality films in English is another method. Talks on various subjects by Orthodox, perhaps from various backgrounds, who have good spoken English. With testimonies from English speaking converts. Victor Beshir has many ideas and is encouraging wonderful activities through the Coptic Evangelistic Fellowship of North America.
What is required, it seems to me, (apart from much constant prayer and the working of the Holy Spirit) is to make our Orthodoxy accessible to people 'where they are' and in the language they ordinarily use. They need to see that Orthodoxy is meaningful and transformational for people like them. And they need to be taught about our Lord Jesus Christ, much more than exotic architecture, strange music and unusual art. If they seek Jesus Christ then Orthodoxy will become a home for them. If they are interested only in the externals of our faith then they will not take root and will move on with the next interesting idea.
Nothing at all prevents Coptic Orthodox from doing evangelism. It is what we should all be concerned about and all seeking to participate in. It does not mean that we should all do the work of an evangelist. Just inviting people to something like the Orthodox Festival can be entirely natural and evangelistic. We do need to put ourselves in other's shoes. We do need to make sure that in our evangelism we are not making what is important to us, in terms of culture, an obstacle to people who are interested in Orthodoxy but not interested in becoming an Egyptian, or an Ethiopian, or an Armenian etc.
In every country in the ancient world Orthodox people came and brought the Orthodox Gospel and helped to establish a Church that was just right for those people and that place in terms of culture. That is the very reason why there is a Coptic Orthodox Church, and not an Aramaic Orthodox Church in Egypt. That is why I am most comfortable as a member of the British Orthodox Church diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. That is why French people have the French Coptic Orthodox Church etc etc. But this does not mean that the Coptic Church cannot become rooted in British and Western Culture, but just that if it is to properly engage in mission then it does need to support daughter congregations and communities which are English through and through in terms of culture, while being rooted in Coptic faith, doctrine and spirituality. There is plenty of scope for both. There is scope for Arabic language liturgies and Coptic language liturgies and English language liturgies. There is scope for daughter congregations who worship entirely in English but come together with a mother congregation to worship in a mixed language liturgy on feast days for instance as a mark of the common faith which is shared.
There is a British Orthodox priest in Australia, Father Gregory.
http://britishorthodox.org/aboutus/clergy/
He lives in Petersham, NSW.
IIRC there are two new English language only missions just started in the US. It seems to me that this is the way forward. There is no need for an either/or, but each community should worship in the language(s) that best suit it. I am sure that in the US itself there will eventually be Spanish language Coptic missions, as there are in Mexico. But this would not require all Arabic and Coptic language worship to cease, there is room for all if we are humble and do not seek to make language and culture a matter of controversy.
Father Peter
Thanks for the insight. So im a little confused, does Fr. Gregory pray in the COC? How does that work?!
http://dan-mm.livejournal.com/1374.html
Father Peter
Father Peter
Thank you for your clarification on the missionary actvity of the BOC. I truely did not know the great challenges that face the BOC. I merley thought, the BOC should be a great position, since its foundation goes back to the 19th century (If I am not mistaken). My info is that the BOC had been around for a long time, until it decided to join the COC Patriarchate in 1994(?).Be it as it may, I think the BOC is the best thing that happened to the COC in the last few decades.I believe,the BOC can do wonders evangelising and ministering to the english speaking world.
For example ,here is an excerpt from an article written by Fr Pishoy Salama ( Brother of HG Bishop David)
"It is amazing to hear the story of preaching Christianity to Ethiopia in the fourth century and how St. Athanasius the Apostolic (20th Pope of Alexandria enthroned from 328A.D. – 373 A.D.) had a vision which was both theologically and culturally sound to propagate the faith in this land. When Frumentius and Aedesius were washed to shore after their shipwreck on the Ethiopian coast, they were taken to the royal palace where they became the king’s private secretary and cupbearer respectively . Frumentius became the private teacher of the child prince Ezan, the son of King Ella Amida, and had the opportunity to teach Prince Ezan basic tenants of Christianity. After a while, the two brothers Frumentius and Aedesius were permitted to travel back to their homeland, Tyre in Phoenicia (modern Lebanon), went through the Nile and stopped in Egypt to meet with St. Athanasius the Apostolic. There, they requested of the saint to send missionaries to Ethiopia where the ground was fertile for the indigenous peoples to accept the faith. St. Athanasius in his wisdom wanted to ordain someone who would know the true Orthodox faith, be familiar with the language, culture, and traditions of the land. Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, he ordained St. Frumentius, who became known as Bishop Salama, as the first bishop and missionary to Ethiopia. The newly ordained bishop preached the Orthodox faith, theology, and dogma but permitted the people to express them in a way which was culturally relevant. It is still refreshing to witness an Ethiopian service that is embedded with their native cultural signs, musical instruments, and language while being assured that they are one with us in the faith and we can both share in the most holy sacraments
St Athansius had many options to ordain other Bishops for a ministry in Ethiopa. But he wisely chose someone who already knows the land and whom the people of Ethiopa are already familiar with.As we know,the rest is history. I think, that HH Pope Shenouda has the same wisom and vision as St Athansius. I believe, if there had been few more Popes in the calibre of St Athanasius, maybe the Ethiopian church would not have sought independece friom the COC during the time of Emperor Haile Selaise. One aspect is that,the Ethiopians resent the fact that the COC had appointed only an Egyptian national, someone who neither speaks the language nor had proir knowsdlge of the land as their Bishop, but never an Ethiopian national. However, looking at the success of Coptic missions in Africa, I see a St Athanisius in the leadership of His Holiness Pope Shenouda. In light of this, I strongly think,that the BOC is best suited to approach the English speaking world to bring them the true faith of our Lord. Maybe not now or anytime soon, but not withstanding the challenges , it definately must be one of the top future plans.With God everything is possible.
Finally,given that you also have to work to support yourself,-and I do not know how you manage to be here with us to attend to our needs and we do certainly seem to take it for granted, thank you for your spritual guidance .May the LORD be loyal to you in return and reward you with his unfailing love.
In the mean time, please let us know of any fund raising events and activities to help support your parish.
Hez.
As I was reading the last post I came across much distorted information on the article written by Fr. Pishoy Salama and I couldn’t resist but post a reply. What gets me the most is that people, be it a bishop or a layman, write any thing that supports their idea with out doing a thorough research on the topic they are writing about. For instance, After King Ella Amida passed away; it was not just on prince (Ezana) who became a king, it was the twin brothers (Ezana and Seizana. After they were baptized, they were called Abraha and Atsbaha). Another distorted fact is that when King Alla Amida died the two brothers (Frumentius and Aedesius) were given the freedom to do whatever they wanted but the twin kings were very young (in their teens) that the kings mother asked if Frumentius and Aedesius help here in guiding her sons since they have been in the palace when her husband, King Ella Amida, was alive and they have a very good knowledge of how to run the kingdom. Both Frumentius and Aedesius did not accept the request from the queen. Aedesius decided to go back to his country but Frumentius stayed with the twin kings teaching them about Christianity and assisting the queen guiding the young kings. There is one important thing to note. That is, Christianity was preached by the assistant of the queen of Ethiopia in the first century as it is written in the Bible (In the Gosple of Luke) and practiced amongst the common people. The only thing that was lacking was there was no Holy sacrament because there were no ordained priests and deacons. The two kings decide to request a bishop so that priests and deacons will be ordained and the Holly Sacrament will be administered in churches. To do this they have to have some one who knows Christianity as well as the Arabic language very well and the kings decided to send St. Frumentius to Alexandria. Through the Will of God, St. Athanasius decided to teach St. Frumentius for five years every thing he needed to know to qualify him to be a bishop, ordained him as bishop Selama and sent him back to Ethiopia.
Another distorted history is, I quote:
“It is still refreshing to witness an Ethiopian service that is embedded with their native cultural signs, musical instruments, and language while being assured that they are one with us in the faith and we can both share in the most holy sacraments.” Fr Pishoy Salama
This is just misleading information. The signs, Hymnal instruments (we do not call it musical instruments!) that are being used to this day came out of the Bible itself. The hymns we use in the church are guided by the Holly Spirit. As a matter of fact, the church is a source of development of anything in Ethiopia including the music and musical instrument, not vise versa. Speaking of the language, as I said before, the people were Christians already with a well developed sophisticated language so that they did not need any other language to borrow.
The other fact that is overlooked is that Judaism was a widely accepted religion in the country they used to have Synagogues around the country to worship God. These Synagogues are now converted to churches during the twin kings and are still being in use to this day in different part of the country. I hope that this post does not offend any body but it would be nice to post any supporting ideas with caution.
Pray for me the sinner.
I find it very important to let you know Fr Pishoy Salama whom I know is not the type of a person who distorts facts for any reason. I take offense at your characterization. If he made any mistakes,then they were honest mistakes and not purposive action to mis-inform.If you find some untruth in the story, it is not his fault. It might interest you to know that the source of his information is derived from "Ethiopian Christianity: A History of the Christian Church in Ethiopia".
You write:
[quote author=Tewahedo link=topic=9121.msg115429#msg115429 date=1276275908]
There is one important thing to note. That is, Christianity was preached by the assistant of the queen of Ethiopia in the first century as it is written in the Bible (In the Gosple of Luke) and practiced amongst the common people.
Since you speak of facts , may I ask you what historical evidences exist that supports the claim that the assistant of the Queen of Ethiopia refers to the Ethiopia of today? In other words, what evidence is there that shows biblical Ethiopia is the same location as modern day Ethiopia?
Thanks.
" very important point to note .Thank you tewahdo.I don't think many people realize the spiritual meanings of our kebero ,tsenasil,mequamia the movement etc... if you are well rounded regarding this please explain the holy meaning embedded in it .
wo sibhat le Egziabher
This page was based on the following sources, which you can consult for more detailed information:
Aziz S. Atiya, History of Eastern Christianity. Notre Dame, Indiana: University of Notre Dame Press, 1968 pp 146-66
Adrian Hastings, The Church in Africa: 1450-1950. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1994. Ch 1, 4, 6.
Elizabeth Isichei, A History of Christianity in Africa from Antiquity to the Present. London: SPCK, 1995. pp.
Encyclopedia Britannica s.v. "Ethiopia"
Links:
General:
http://www.unesco.org/whc/exhibits/afr_rev/africa-l.htm
http://www.tbwt.com/profiles/ethiopia.htm
This is a secular site with a brief history of Ethiopia and a nice map which includes the major religious sites.
http://www.casema.net/~spaansen/
http://web.mit.edu/afs/athena.mit.edu/user/r/e/redingtn/www/yared/eth.html
Regarding your question, it seams to me that you want to take the conversation to a different direction which I don’t have time for. Either you can see our conversation in a productive way. Once again if I offended you I ask you forgiveness in God’s name. One thing I want to say is that any thing that is found on the internet is not correct.
God Bless.
Had you used a different word other than "distort", I would not have been bothered to say anything.I understand distortion to mean wilful misrepresentation of the truth.
[quote author=Tewahedo link=topic=9121.msg115435#msg115435 date=1276295306]
If you want to know historical facts all you have to do is go to Axum where the arc of the covenant is placed.
I am not trying to steer off the topic into a different direction.I asked you a simple question to see what you mean when you accuse others of not having the facts on the ground before they say anything. Now I see what you call 'Historical facts',when you say.
[quote author=Tewahedo link=topic=9121.msg115435#msg115435 date=1276295306]
If you want to know historical facts all you have to do is go to Axum where the arc of the covenant is placed.
History is based on facts. There is NO evidence that suggests the Ark is in Ethiopia! The world has no evidence of that. Neither the Bible nor other important manuscripts tell us anything about the Ark going to Ethiopia. If anything, I and the world do not buy a story that is only told by the Ethiopian church about a Queen of Sheba visiting king Solomon resulting in the birth of a son who had brought the ark with him to Ethiopia. Finally, NO ONE has seen the Ark. So facts please, if that is what you expect honorable priest like Fr Pishoy Salama to do. If Kebra Nagast is the book called the Glory of kings, I have read it. I find the book is to be nothing, but a collection of fairy tales ala Harry Potter.If I remember correctly,it is the same book that speaks of Ethiopian Kings descending from the dynasty of King David and Solomon.It is the book that details how the Ark of Covenant was stolen from Jerusalem by Sheba's son. It is important to note this book was written around the 13th century to support a new dynasty of powerful Abyssinian clan and in attempt to legitimitize their devine right to the throne by claiming direct ancestory to the anointed kings of Israel. There is no independent FACTUAL evidences to your assertions! Therefore,the book is not qualified to be called historical.
Show me Scientific findings that fully corroborate ,even remotely,any of your claims! .
You are reading too much into it. It is not a grave mistake ,and certainly 'not misleading' to say "musical instruments" instead of "hymnal instruments'.Hymnal instrumenst could be musical instruments one way or the other.Stringed instruments like the harp,lyre ,trumpets,lute are musical instruments. The triangle is a musical percussion instrument.I dont see any reason why you find it offensive.
BTW, your links do not work.
Whether you and the world believe that the ARC is in Ethiopia is not my problem. You have your free will to accept it or not. But what is sad is that when you say “If anything, I and the world do not buy a story that is only told by the Ethiopian church about a Queen of Sheba visiting king Solomon resulting in the birth of a son who had brought the ark with him to Ethiopia. Finally, NO ONE has seen the Ark.” It indicates that the Ethiopian priests and monks including our Bishops are liars. Do you know that St Tekle Himanot whom the Coptic Church accepts as a saint (I hope you also accept him as a saint) also believed that Ethiopia has the Arc. I know that our religious leaders are not telling us just a story. If you don’t believe that the Arc is in the ancient city of Axum that is your choice. No one is forcing you to do so. Neither I nor any Ethiopian will care whether you believe it or not. In my church upbringing, we are taught to call things appropriately.
Hymns are not songs or music, and hymnal instruments are not musical instruments because every thing that is used in the church has religious meanings. I am not worried about what the world calls them. Since the church does not call them musical instruments I don’t call them either because I follow my church teachings. Speaking of the links, if you search the title of the article you quoted in your previous article online, you will find the website and the links.
God Bless.