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The Watchtower Society LOL

IoannesIoannes
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
The other day I checked my mail and seen that I got something from the local kingdom hall. This letter was from a nice lady named "alma" and in this letter she told me she had the answers to lifes questions, exiciting huh? She gave me her number and said that I can call anytime.......so I did. Unfortunately I did not get "alma", but I got her voicemail and left a nice message so that she might call back. I am going to record our "conversation" or as I like to call these things, verbal beat downs. What I was wondering is, is it wrong to crush somebodies beliefs? I have zero tolerance for these worms, and will not hold back anything in my attempt to utterly destroy their heretical belief system.

Am I in the wrong for doing this? I have done this before to Jehovah Witness' and they had nothing to say, nothing to combat anything I said. Is this one instance where my tenacity and insanity can be used?
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  • [Deleted User]
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  • geomike
    well, it's ok, but i don't think it's right to call them "worms". You also need to be sensitive to their feelings when u first contact them, then when you get to know them you can then be a little harsh.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9491.msg116952#msg116952 date=1279896933]
    The other day I checked my mail and seen that I got something from the local kingdom hall. This letter was from a nice lady named "alma" and in this letter she told me she had the answers to lifes questions, exiciting huh? She gave me her number and said that I can call anytime.......so I did. Unfortunately I did not get "alma", but I got her voicemail and left a nice message so that she might call back. I am going to record our "conversation" or as I like to call these things, verbal beat downs. What I was wondering is, is it wrong to crush somebodies beliefs? I have zero tolerance for these worms, and will not hold back anything in my attempt to utterly destroy their heretical belief system.

    Am I in the wrong for doing this? I have done this before to Jehovah Witness' and they had nothing to say, nothing to combat anything I said. Is this one instance where my tenacity and insanity can be used?


    Go for it
  • jerusalem2jerusalem2
    'Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving; meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.
    Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time. Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.' Colosians 4:2-6

    'And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.' 2 Timothy 2:24-26

    'Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. Let all that you do be done with love.'
    1 Corinthians 16:13-14

    Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.  Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.  2 Corinthians 5:18-21

    In Christ
  • IoannesIoannes
    LOL yea Im not going to call them worms to their faces. In all seriousness, I try to make a clear distinction to them, and those that may be observing, that I am attacking their beliefs not them. A guy did call me back and left a message, so I am going to call him back monday and I will record the whole thing. I believe this is connected in some way to an incident I had with a JW a few months ago. These two ladies were pestering me and I kept silent, hard to believe I know, but once they said Christ is not God but "a god" it was on. The older of the two, I am assuming the mother, left shocked and almost in tears. While the daughter, I am assuming, continued to go down in flames as I destroyed everything she said. She knew it too because she was sweating more than any woman I have ever seen. She said, I think we need to come to your house, I said absolutely not, she said why? I said I do not allow demons into my home. My home is a mirror of church and I am to keep it sacred. Not only that, I do not want my son exposed to such disgusting beliefs at this young of an age.

    I gave her my phone number and told her she could call anytime she felt she wanted to learn the truth. Unfortunately she had my name from my name badge so I think that is how I was tracked down.

    Also, she had no idea her religion was founded by charles russell taze, LOL.
  • geomike
    lol, Mormons and JW's are funny. They are mostly hypocrytical in their beliefs. Mormons are against soda. Guess who's president of PEPSI? A mormon. lol. Ionnes you're the man. I wish i can do the same thing but my parents will not let me talk to these people.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Ioannes,

    To quote a very famous Coptic (Zoxsasi):  Go for it!

    They are worms.  If you recall, worms do not have a brain.  These people are brainwashed and instilled into a cult.  They are given rote speeches and answers.  They are incapable of coming off their script.  When you challenge them and take them off script they lock up.

    I love talking to them and confounding them and casting doubt into their absurd beliefs.  I take pamphlets from them and throw them in the garbage.  It wastes money from their coffers and by stalling them, I keep them from getting to someone who is weak and may fall to their absurdities.

    I would love to hear the conversation.  Put it on Youtube.


  • IoannesIoannes
    The funniest part is when, right in the beginning, I ask them to prove their existence. They are usually confused by the question, which is the point. So I tell them that in Mt 16:18 Christ clearly states that the church He founds will still be here, and will not be conquered. So I ask them, how do you trace your church back to the apostles? They try and change the topic immediately because they know nothing about church history, or even their own founder. So I educate them, then they are totally thrown off but they are persistent.

    I explain to them that their "new world translation", which I own, is incorrect. So I read John ch.1 to them in english, KJV, and their version, then in Greek. Then I explain the greek words to them, showing them that there is no possible way their translation is correct. Then I make them say Christ is God. If they dont, then I make fun of them for recruiting Prince.
  • jerusalem2jerusalem2
    i mean no offense, but please be careful.  treat others as you would like to be treated.  Although it is good and loving to guide them into the truth, it is unkind to laugh at them or call them names.  Imagine if you went on a website and heard people speak of you like this.  they are mistaken about their beliefs but we have no right to speak ill of them, but rather we should pray for them and show them love and compassion as this may bring them to know Christ.

    'Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.  [...] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.  Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.' (James 3: 13, 17-18)

    God be with u,
    In Christ
  • mabsootamabsoota
    good point, jerusalem 2
  • IoannesIoannes
    Jerusalem, I dont make fun of them, that was a joke and unfortunately sarcasm is not something that can be portrayed through the internet. I do treat people how I wish to be treated, I talk to them how I wish to be talked to, which isnt the most compassionate of ways. When I talk with someone about these issues and give them the truth, when they reject it, I care very little about the rest of the conversation, if it even continues. I find that a willful rejection of the truth shows a lack of maturity and intelligence. There is not a single thing I can do at that point, it is up to God.

    I have no patience for these poor souls that willingly reject truth.
  • aidanaidan
    Meanwhile the JWs go plodding on....

    Ioannes, your stance makes me think you are unsure of your own faith even to the extent of having its name tatooed in Amharic on your neck!

    Have you examined every belief in the world and found it to be wanting before you discovered Tewahedo or maybe you had a convincing revelation? Many convert JWs had only ever been approached by the Watchtower Society when they needed a faith and had never even heard of Orthodoxy because no Orthodox had bothered to share their faith, so you have to be careful about imputing motives.

    They are trained to leave when faced with anyone that knows anything about church history (for which they have no answer) or uncomfortable scripture so be gentle with them or they'll never hear the truth. 
  • jerusalem2jerusalem2
    i kinda think being gentle is probably best too.  u hav a gift in that you know their beliefs and you can explain to them the Truth, and give them answers to their replies.. i could not reply to wot they say, and i reckon the majority of people they hav met cannot either.  Everyday they r probably met with people who will shut the door in their faces and not listen to them and they really believe that they are telling them the truth and trying to save their souls.  Perhaps if when you speak to them you show them a thankfullness that they care enough to be trying to convince you of wot they believe to be the Truth but with kindness and love tell them that you believe they are wrong and give explanations to their questions, then they will listen.

    I pray that that may be the case. u may b the only person they ever talk to who will b able to redirect them to God.  If in the end they do not agree with you, at least they will realise that there are powerful arguments against their beliefs and good and kind people who believe them. u may sow a seed.

    i think it is very hard to change all ur beliefs instantly based on one conversation, but it is possible that a conversation will get you thinking.  Even for the two men on the road to Emmaus, it took a little time for wot Jesus said to them to sink in, and they had Christ Himself explaining the scripture to them. i find that if someone speaks to me harshly, i become defensive and do not listen properly to their arguments. 

    May God be with you and give you words that will speak to their hearts!  :)
  • IoannesIoannes
    Aidan. Before I became Orthodox, I was many things. I had, at that point, settled on atheism, considering myself a nihilist, believing in no truth. When I realized that believing in nihilism, was to believe that there IS truth. Therefore there must be absolute truth. Being that I had no bias, because I was raised very liberal, it was easy for me to study religion from an unbiased perspective. Based upon the evidence Orthodoxy is truth.

    I did study JW, and to show you that I did I will explain why I did not choose that. JW was founded by Charles Russell Taze, at first as a bible study group. He quickly stood out and began to take a leadership role in founding a church. Taze believed he was some sort of prophet, that all religions had gone astray and that his teaching is the true teaching. JW contains almost every heresy, besides the horrors of "the family", known to man. First is the most obvious, Arianism. They believe Christ is "a god" not God, which also makes them pagan. The believe this so much the perverted scriptures and created their own bible, that supports this view. Second is Chilliasm, which was condemned at the second ecumenical council. Chilliasm is an idea based on the book of revelation in which Christ comes and reigns for 1,000 years on the earth, which chilliasts believe is a total utopia where everyone is free to indulge. This was actually created by a bishop, Marcion of Sinope, whom St. Polycarp, a disciple of St John, called "the first born of Satan".

    Aidan, if you feel I am unsure of my own faith I welcome you to question it. In fact I make a open challenge to you to test my faith. I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is and take this challenge and prove to me that I am unsure of my faith.
  • f753789f753789
    A mission priest at a retreat told us it is our responsibility to plant the seed and God will water it. Its not necessary to argue and try to convince people of the Truth because we can not change peoples hearts only God can.
  • IoannesIoannes
    [quote author=✞Stavroforos✞ link=topic=9491.msg117020#msg117020 date=1280009012]
    A mission priest at a retreat told us it is our responsibility to plant the seed and God will water it. Its not necessary to argue and try to convince people of the Truth because we can not change peoples hearts only God can.


    Have you read any of the early church fathers writings? We should not shy away from a confrontation, especially when they approached me.
  • f753789f753789
    [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9491.msg117023#msg117023 date=1280018712]
    Have you read any of the early church fathers writings? We should not shy away from a confrontation, especially when they approached me.


    I never said to shy away or not defend our faith. I am just saying don't feel obligated to keep arguing until they are convinced because no matter what you do and what proof you show them nothing will change them except with the grace of God. As I previously said, just plant the seed in them to ponder and think about. State the facts and show them where they are wrong in love and leave the rest for God to do. (btw we are not disagreeing, just making a point  ;) )
  • IoannesIoannes
    I hope you dont think I spend all my time trying to convince people. If it is one on one and the person rejects the truth, then what else can I do. If there is an audience, then I argue to convince them, not the person I am arguing with. Its a nice way of speaking indirectly to those listening. I understand what you are saying, but I am well aware of what I am doing and I am not a person who wishes to waste time with people who refuse to listen.
  • IoannesIoannes
    Ok, so I smashed the Jehovah Witness on the phone right, I recorded it and all. The main reason is because they have been canvasing this area and have not left us alone, I figured that would do it. then 3-4 days later they come knocking. Needless to say I made the woman so mad she started screaming at me and after the third time her husband told her to shut up. They say the Trinity is a "freakish three headed God." And they also believe that Christ is created, and is the archangel Michael. They kept telling me that the Greek says this or that, and I said, "do you know Greek?" He of course ignored, so I corrected his Greek. He asked if they could come back another time to sit down with us, and I said no you cant come inside. I was going to leave it at that so I didnt have to insult him, but he asked why he was not allowed inside, which I found kind of odd, and I said, I dont allow devils into my home.

    I believe when you believe in something like this, you give yourself over to demons, thats just my opinion tho. But if anyone wants to hear the debate, give me your email.
  • copticcross3copticcross3
    i thnk it's great that you wish to present to people the truth...
    but i think some more patience and sympathy would be great.
    i often think  how incredibly lucky i am to have been born orthodox...
    so many people were not that lucky so they do need to be introduced to it and at least given the opportunity, in fact, it's our duty....BUT we need to remember how blessed we are to be in the correct faith and never look down on others and respect them as our brothers and sisters in christ, nomatter their religion
  • aidanaidan
    http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnessing/101_questions.htm

    If you are interested in debating with JWs, and we all know how difficult that can be, here is a site that will supply clear, unanswerable questions for them. But as we also know no one was ever converted by being made to look stupid.
  • IoannesIoannes
    Aidan, I have no interest in debating them. The only reason that I did is because they were harassing me. And for CopticCross, no matter what anyone says and what fashion it is said, they are stuck and only God can pull them out. They have given themselves over to demons. I say what I feel like saying and as long as I dont sin, I dont care what they think. Do I get angry when they harass me? Of course, anger is a natural human emotion just like crying and you wouldnt tell someone not to cry, would you? So I have to learn to control that, so I dont sin. Im not egyptian and I dont care to be, therefore I dont lay down quietly and let people trample all over me. I understand that if I were from Egypt I would probably be the same way because of the persecution.

    Fact remains, I will always speak my mind, I will always be direct. I hate political correctedness and feel it is a cancer. Talk to a JW sometime CopticCross, you will hopefully understand. I dont look down on them and I am stunned that you would draw such a conclusion, I look down on their beliefs. I dont hate them, I hate their beliefs. There is a difference.
  • copticcross3copticcross3
    ...uhm...where i live is predominantly mormon, and they are possibly worse than jw.  Trust me, i have talked to them. i have been harassed by them. they have come to my home several times. and yes i DO speak my mind, thank you very much. Anyways, all i will say is: when you speak to them (or anyone),  you are an ambassador for God. so take that as you will.
  • IoannesIoannes
    CopticCross, yeah, I dont know, Mormons are pretty bad. Maybe the JW and Mormons should get together and make a mega heresy. I am glad you do speak your mind, thats good. I am fully aware that I am an ambassador for God.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Ioannes,

    Dude, I sent you my e-mail.  I made popcorn, and I am all set to listen to the thrashing.  Send it to me.  I need a good laugh.
  • IoannesIoannes
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=9491.msg117784#msg117784 date=1281451109]
    Ioannes,

    Dude, I sent you my e-mail.  I made popcorn, and I am all set to listen to the thrashing.  Send it to me.  I need a good laugh.



    Im sorry, I thought I sent it. I only got a few emails so I am surprised I missed yours. Let me check again.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9491.msg116952#msg116952 date=1279896933]
    The other day I checked my mail and seen that I got something from the local kingdom hall. This letter was from a nice lady named "alma" and in this letter she told me she had the answers to lifes questions, exiciting huh? She gave me her number and said that I can call anytime.......so I did. Unfortunately I did not get "alma", but I got her voicemail and left a nice message so that she might call back. I am going to record our "conversation" or as I like to call these things, verbal beat downs. What I was wondering is, is it wrong to crush somebodies beliefs? I have zero tolerance for these worms, and will not hold back anything in my attempt to utterly destroy their heretical belief system.

    Am I in the wrong for doing this? I have done this before to Jehovah Witness' and they had nothing to say, nothing to combat anything I said. Is this one instance where my tenacity and insanity can be used?


    At work, we discuss religion. Some colleagues don't like the catholic church, some do. Some don't like Islam, some do; but one thing everyone shares in common is that they hate the mormons and jehovah's witness.

    So, I don't see what's wrong with this.

    Can you upload the recording anyway? We'd all like to hear it.
    Thanks
  • IoannesIoannes
    You know I can take alot, I really can. But when someone tells me Christ is not God and that the Trinity is a "freakish three headed God." I have a serious problem. When they send me their garbage in the mail and ask me to call them, I do, but I dont go seeking an argument with them. When they come to my house purposely looking for my wife, who does not speak english very well, I have a problem. When they came to my home, I tore them apart. I told them to not come back to this neighborhood, they said they had a right to come here. I told them that they did not have ANY right to disseminate harmful materials and they should be arrested for doing so. They asked how it was harmful, I said if you distribute material that is full of lies and or is misleading people, you should be arrested. I then smashed both of them into pieces, even the neighbors enjoyed the sight.

    Needless to say, after the neighbors had cheered, they left promptly. They have not been back, to my surprise.

    BTW Zoxasi, how can I upload this?
  • TITLTITL
    If anyone wants to listen to the conversation with these people, Ioannes kindly posted it here: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmpy9m_the-debate_creation
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    Well done, Ioannes!
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