Your Love Embraced Me

Comments

• minatasgeel

  December 2010

  to make life easier....this is the text i have--that is also the text of the Southern diocese book (with minor changes):
  (i have to point out that "sabani hobek means: “Your love captivated me” rather than "your love embraced me" which is only used for the purpse of singing.
  
  A hymn said with its known tune before “[coptic]Teoi `nhikanoc.[/coptic]”
  مديح يقال بلحنه المعروف قبل "تيؤي إنهي كانوس."
  
  I praise the Virgin,
  And explain and say,
  O the origin,
  And the hidden pearl.
  
  Through your Son O grace,
  The salvation of our race,
  We reached the goal O Mary,
  You brought us jubilation.
  
  He was truly incarnate,
  From the pride of girls,
  Crucified and died,
  For us at Golgotha.
  
  The fruit of my pledge,
  Is the daughter of Zion,
  My enemies declare,
  I am filled with your love.
  
  Refrain:
  Your love embraced me ,
  O pride of nations,
  Moses saw you O Mary,
  Surprise and marvel.
  And the lamps are bright,
  With golden crosses,
  O Mary Moses’ dome
  O Aaron’s censer.
  (Sabani hobek, ya fakharel-rotab, Mosa ra-a-ki ya Mariam, ‘agb men ‘agb. Wel-anadeel faddah be-tedwi, wel-solban dahb, ya obbet Mosa ya Mariam, ya shoriet Haron.)
  
  The following parts may be added to the refrain:
  يمكن أن تضاف القطع الأتية للمرد:
  
  + Oh what a wonder,
  My mind is amazed today,
  In a sealed door,
  With the Child inside.
  (‘agabee ya oom, tah ‘a-lee el-yom, fe baben makhtoum, we sabee gowah.)
  
  + Oh Virgin,
  Oh my Lady,
  Through your love,
  I am living with God.
  (Ah ya ‘adra ah, ah ya-siti ah, ana fee hobek, mash-ghol ballah.)
  
  + And my praise to the Virgin,
  Filled my heart with joy,
  And those who praise her always,
  Their hearts rejoice.
  (Weda madhe fel-batol, zad albo farah, welle yemdaha ‘ala tool, albo yen-sharah.)
  
  Gabriel came to you,
  With tidings and words,
  You accepted his word,
  A hidden mystery.
  
  You contained the Fruit,
  The Lord of power,
  You became a bright heaven,
  O daughter of Zion.
  
  Your Son saved Adam,
  After his sorrow,
  And has freed the world,
  From the Devil’s plots.
  
  He is ever-glorified,
  The only-begotten was incarnated,
  To save the servants,
  From prison and bondage.
  
  (Refrain)
  
  David spoke of you,
  “The King desired your purity,”
  And took flesh from you,
  The hidden Lord of the throne.
  
  Myriads and thousands,
  Around the throne standing,
  Ranks and orders,
  Together with the martyrs.
  
  We are comforted,
  As sorrow was taken away,
  Through you we rejoice,
  O the pride of the human race.
  
  Salome witnessed,
  That the Virgin gave birth,
  She believed and confirmed,
  The hidden mystery.
  
  (Refrain)
  
  In the Book of Genesis,
  Moses the orator said,
  “Jacob the great saw you,
  A ladder full of splendor.”
  
  The chiefs witnessed,
  You are the intercessor,
  O Virgin and Bride,
  As the prophets prophesied.
  
  Hosea proclaimed,
  That Jesus will appear,
  As rain and dew,
  Bewildering those who hear.
  
  Eve caused Adam to stray,
  He cried in regret,
  Naked he was exiled,
  And your Son returned him.
  
  (Refrain)
  
  Your Light has shone,
  Illuminating darkness,
  Your Branch sprouted,
  And the Christians reaped the fruits.
  
  Blessed are you O heaven,
  You bewildered the scholars,
  Philosophers and wise men,
  Speak of your honor.
  
  God appeared from you,
  The Exalted One in heaven,
  Your milk nursed Him
  Like all humans.
  
  Your goodness is exalted,
  For Jesus is your Son,
  Your womb carried Him,
  He saved mankind.
  
  (Refrain)
  
  The chanters were enriched,
  O joy of spirits,
  Praising you is success,
  True and fine sayings.
  
  You gained my Lord’s pardon,
  That is also my plea,
  To belong to Jesus and His Mother,
  Among the overcomers I shall be.
  
  Ancient and Eternal,
  He died to erase sins,
  He rose from His sleep,
  As the Disciples preached.
  
  The righteous Apostles,
  Preached in nations,
  The joyful tidings,
  And performed miracles.
  
  (Refrain)
  
  To you is greatness,
  O daughter of Joachim,
  You bore a great Mystery,
  O delight of the eyes.
  
  Moses and Daniel,
  Gave proverbs,
  They uttered true words about,
  Your pregnancy O Zion’s daughter.
  
  You enlightened the world,
  O the pride of generations,
  Because of your Son,
  All creatures were freed.
  
  Great and splendid gifts,
  Were offered by the kings,
  Myrrh, gold and frankincense,
  The Magi carried to the King
  
  (Refrain)
  
  They worshiped the Newborn,
  The worshipped Lord of lords,
  And Herod was terrified,
  And his soldiers surprised.
  
  Do not forsake at any time,
  Your poor and humble servant,
  Your intercession on Judgment Day,
  For me and all the faithful.
  
  O Lady of virgins,
  To whom belongs dignity,
  Grant us victory,
  Over those who deceive us.
  
  We ask of your Son,
  Forgiveness and faith,
  And comfort for the people,
  On Judgment Day.
  
  (Refrain)
• Cyril97

  December 2010

  I don't think it is said in that tune.
  Thanks anyways,
  
  Cyril
• TITL

  December 2010

  lol Mina is saying the hymn is sung in its original famous tune of "Sabany Hobek", and it's said before the hymn Teoi Enhikanos.
• minatasgeel

  December 2010

  [quote author=TITL link=topic=10190.msg124629#msg124629 date=1292417708]
  lol Mina is saying the hymn is sung in its original famous tune of "Sabany Hobek", and it's said before the hymn Teoi Enhikanos.
  
  
  exactly.
• Cyril97

  December 2010

  I am sorry. I misunderstood.
  If you know me by now, tou should understand that I will ask for a recording.
  I found a recording but it doesn't match your text.
  http://www.coptichymnsinenglish.net/
  Under Kiahk Hymns.
  Do you have a text for that or a recording for your text?
  Thanks soo much for your help.
  GB, PFM,
  Cyril
• Remnkemi

  December 2010

  Can we talk about the refrain for a moment?
  
  The whole refrain is below.
  Refrain:
  Your love embraced me ,
  O pride of nations,
  Moses saw you O Mary,
  Surprise and marvel.
  And the lamps are bright,
  With golden crosses,
  O Mary Moses’ dome
  O Aaron’s censer.
  (Sabani hobek, ya fakharel-rotab, Mosa ra-a-ki ya Mariam, ‘agb men ‘agb. Wel-anadeel faddah be-tedwi, wel-solban dahb, ya obbet Mosa ya Mariam, ya shoriet Haron.)
  
  The following parts may be added to the refrain:
  يمكن أن تضاف القطع الأتية للمرد:
  
  + Oh what a wonder,
  My mind is amazed today,
  In a sealed door,
  With the Child inside.
  (‘agabee ya oom, tah ‘a-lee el-yom, fe baben makhtoum, we sabee gowah.)
  
  + Oh Virgin,
  Oh my Lady,
  Through your love,
  I am living with God.
  (Ah ya ‘adra ah, ah ya-siti ah, ana fee hobek, mash-ghol ballah.)
  
  + And my praise to the Virgin,
  Filled my heart with joy,
  And those who praise her always,
  Their hearts rejoice.
  (Weda madhe fel-batol, zad albo farah, welle yemdaha ‘ala tool, albo yen-sharah.)
  
  
  First of all, as far as I can remember, none of these verses are found in the old Kiahk Psalmody book by Claudius Labib. (I'm not sure about the first verse. But I am 100% sure that the remaining 3 verses are recent additions (less than 10 years). What happened to keeping our tradition? Why are we adding verses out of the blue? And if we are to add verses, shouldn't they make sense?
  
  What are these verses trying to say? Only the first 2 lines make sense. What does "Moses saw you, O Mary, surprise and marvel" mean? Is Moses surprised and marveled that he saw St. Mary? Or are we surprised and marveled that Moses saw St. Mary? And the actual correct translation is "Moses saw you, O Mary, surprise from surprise". So we can't rely on the Arabic for clarification.
  
  Then we go to the next line, "And the lamps are bright, with golden crosses". What are we talking about? What lamps? What golden crosses? The context moved from Moses and the burning bush to lamps and crosses with no transition. Are the lamps and crosses related to Mary at all?
  
  And the next part should be translated, "O Mary Moses' tabernacle, O Aaron's censer", not "Moses' dome". This only shows how book after book we copy mistakes without questioning the context. This line only tells us that the subject of the verse is directed to St. Mary. But what is the whole verse saying?
  
  And the "new" additional verses are obviously misplaced. They neither follow the Arabic style, nor do they make sense. The entire original Kiahk Psalmody is written in Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), with a very clear, poetic style. But these verses are written in colloquial, vernacular Arabic, with no style. The grammar is clearly lacking. For example,  "fe baben makhtoum, we sabee gowah", is literally translated "in a sealed door and child within". One has to fill in the proper grammar and correct the propositions and verbs.
  
  Then there's the most ambiguous, incoherent verse of all: "Ah ya ‘adra ah, ah ya-siti ah, ana fee hobek, mash-ghol ballah". This verse is obviously written by farmers. It is literally translated, "Ah Oh Virgin, Ah O Lady Ah, I am in your love, preoccupied dates". There is neither grammar or any coherent thought in this verse.
  
  None of these verses are coherent and there is no biblical bases for anything said here. Can someone please explain?
  
  George
• childoforthodoxy

  December 2010

  I decided some days ago that I would not post on this topic again, as it seems that we had a discussion about it last year and people seem to have forgotten the thread. Nonetheless, allow me to repost my response to the topic, and ask that you note the discussion that ensued after said response:
  
  http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=4474.msg108822#msg108822
  
  Pray for my weaknesses,
  childoforthodoxy
• minatasgeel

  December 2010

  Remenemi.....havn't heard of you for a looong time.
  
  I guess i can answer some of your comments.
  
  [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10190.msg124790#msg124790 date=1292567591]
  Can we talk about the refrain for a moment?
  First of all, as far as I can remember, none of these verses are found in the old Kiahk Psalmody book by Claudius Labib.
  i have read about this psalmody but never actually seen one. but despite that, the arabic text i am using for almost everything in kiahk is from the Kiahk Psalmody recently published by deer el-sourian. my arabic text is the same except in some changes that i can always talk about.

  (I'm not sure about the first verse. But I am 100% sure that the remaining 3 verses are recent additions (less than 10 years). What happened to keeping our tradition? Why are we adding verses out of the blue? And if we are to add verses, shouldn't they make sense?
  

  yes. the first if the most accepted but it actually goes farther than "10 yrs"...i would to 20. the 2nd one, is i think made famous by Abouna Anastasy Abba Antony. the 3rd one is made famous by HG Bishop Youannis.
  i have only put these parts here just for ppl to know......not really going to use them in a book....even though i am going to use the first one (the oldest) since it is also included in the southern diocese madayah book....that is reviewed by HGB Youssef. i guess i can also say that the english of the rest of the madeha is taken from there to except if the arabic changes (some words are different in the arabic from El-sourian's book and the southern madayeh book).

  What are these verses trying to say? Only the first 2 lines make sense. What does "Moses saw you, O Mary, surprise and marvel" mean? Is Moses surprised and marveled that he saw St. Mary? Or are we surprised and marveled that Moses saw St. Mary? And the actual correct translation is "Moses saw you, O Mary, surprise from surprise". So we can't rely on the Arabic for clarification.

  And the next part should be translated, "O Mary Moses' tabernacle, O Aaron's censer", not "Moses' dome". This only shows how book after book we copy mistakes without questioning the context. This line only tells us that the subject of the verse is directed to St. Mary. But what is the whole verse saying?

  you tell me....this is not the only place we find unexplained parts in kiahk madayaeh. the reason people use "dome" instead of "tabernacle" is that it's easier to sing. that is also the reason we say "your love embraced me" rather than "your love captivated me"....and that is the structure of the translation fo the other parts.

  And the "new" additional verses are obviously misplaced. They neither follow the Arabic style, nor do they make sense. The entire original Kiahk Psalmody is written in Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), with a very clear, poetic style. But these verses are written in colloquial, vernacular Arabic, with no style. The grammar is clearly lacking. For example,  "fe baben makhtoum, we sabee gowah", is literally translated "in a sealed door and child within". One has to fill in the proper grammar and correct the propositions and verbs.

  i don't see the problem....yes i know that the grammar in incorrect, but as i said before, there are many grammar rules that are broken to fit some word into a specific arrangement. actually the verse you mentioned, when said entirely in arabic, it is accepted and is thought to be understood.

  Then there's the most ambiguous, incoherent verse of all: "Ah ya ‘adra ah, ah ya-siti ah, ana fee hobek, mash-ghol ballah". This verse is obviously written by farmers. It is literally translated, "Ah Oh Virgin, Ah O Lady Ah, I am in your love, preoccupied dates". There is neither grammar or any coherent thought in this verse.

  yes....i am with you. but one thing, where did you get the last word, "dates"? the full arabic part is "مشغول بالله"=Mashghol Be-Allah=preoccupied by God. the reason "ballah" is there is just the way a person wrote the arabic into english...

  None of these verses are coherent and there is no biblical bases for anything said here. Can someone please explain?

  i can't fully explain......but i do hope that you visit us on the forum more often.  :)
• ophadece

  December 2010

  Dear Minagir,
  Thanks for the insight. What Remnkimi highlights is a very good point indeed as he usually does. You may be a little young, but I can assure you, as that has never been a recent practice, but it was not that widespread in the past to such an extent. We have to remember the difference between church melodies (madaye7) and carols (taraneem). In the former, it is very hurting to the ears, and slightly derogatory to use vernacular language. In the latter, carols vary so widely that you may say whatever, and change the poetic style accordingly ignoring grammar sometimes. However, you cannot apply this to tasbeha or its melodies. Now that is why nobody agrees with me when I wage a war against Arabic language used in the liturgy and of course in tasbeha as we all seem to get a better consensus about it. Please remember that we were taught since a very young age that there are certain words we cannot use in the church. Equally, we cannot use certain expressions in church melodies at the very least (if not even for carols).
  I am not sure if any of you is aware of this, but during the 1980's a "not-so-new" suggestion was starting to spread, which was to relax the formal language of the Holy Bible, and rewrite it in a colloquial Arabic version. Imagine that project was given a go-ahead, my belief is that the Bible would have lost Its holiness and sanctity. The argument would have been that that would help the illiterate and the not so competent in Arabic to understand it better, but is that argument even good enough? Thank God the authorities did not allow that to happen. To me personally I see translations of tasbeha parts, including the newly written melodies (although I don't really believe in them so much) that they should follow the same path.
  PS: please don't start using words like "y'all - what's up - homey" and the like in translating melodies to English. I can live with English carols having those words, but none more.
  [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
• TITL

  December 2010

  Mina, what are the words to "ah ya adra ah"? Write it down when you come back from the Abbey!
• jydeacon

  December 2010

  [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10190.msg124790#msg124790 date=1292567591]
  
  + Oh Virgin,
  Oh my Lady,
  Through your love,
  I am living with God.
  (Ah ya ‘adra ah, ah ya-siti ah, ana fee hobek, mash-ghol ballah.)
  
  
  
• jydeacon

  December 2010

  I have to agree with Remenkemi and Ophadece on this one. I really think the entire madeeha should be scrapped. Most of it does not make sense and is in fact theologically incorrect. If we take the verse: Zephaniah proclaimed...He will appear as rain without dew. He never said that! Even if you translated Sophonios(as it could be some form of a corrupted Sophia=Wisdom) correctly the flow and entirety of the hymn sounds like nonesense almost. Even if we fix this madeeha or restructure it totally but keeping its tune, there are 100 other mistakes across all the madayah for kiahk 7&4!
• ophadece

  December 2010

  Very true jydeacon,
  Orthodox teachings don't agree with what's mentioned in those melodies following taodokeya parts "intercede for us on judgment day". There is no such a thing the our church teaches. Intercessions stop short of ON judgment day. Please note in vespers prayers we allude to the fact that intercessions will only suffice at the departure of the soul not judgment day.
• Remnkemi

  December 2010

  [quote author=ophadece link=topic=10190.msg125093#msg125093 date=1292962269]
  Very true jydeacon,
  Orthodox teachings don't agree with what's mentioned in those melodies following taodokeya parts "intercede for us on judgment day". There is no such a thing the our church teaches. Intercessions stop short of ON judgment day. Please note in vespers prayers we allude to the fact that intercessions will only suffice at the departure of the soul not judgment day.
  
  
  What makes it more comical is that the actual phrase "Judgement day" in Arabic is literally translated, "the day of crowding". Now living 20 years in NY and walking through the streets of Manhattan, I can affirm "the day of crowding" is everyday in NY. The same thing is true with rush hour in LA and 100 different cities around the world. Maybe there is some hidden wisdom here. I did always pray to the Virgin to intercede while I was in traffic. Does that count?
  
  I know I shouldn't joke. But seriously, the image of Judgement day as a day of crowding is a very materialistic, ignorant and unfounded way to imagine the most fearful event in the history of the world.
  
  I know as Orthodox we don't like to change anything. But certain things need to change.
  
  George
• mmatt95

  December 2010

  I say we have a committee of knowledgeable clergy / laity write a whole new text that is theologically sound and beneficial, in the spirit of Kiahk, using this tune. This way we keep the tune and the spirit of the song, and perserve the orthodoxy of our hymnology. Unfortunately, knowing us, this will never happen.
  The strangest thing of all when I look at the 7/4 madaye7 is that a so called "new adjusted" version of the Kiahk Psalmody came out a few years ago by the Sorian Monastery and a lot of mistakes remained. It's a huge challenge to find a way to deal with this when translating. I know in my country I'm in dubio about what to do with Kiahk psalmody, we are supposed to have a seperate sunday school 7/4 next year. What to include/exclude, translate/not translate? Should we alter the translations of these incorrect sentences, or just skip the whole song?? Should we re-write the whole song like what happened in French instead of literal translations? I wonder what St Cyril or St Athanasius would have said if they read the lyrics of what we sing in Kiahk nowadays  ;D
• ophadece

  December 2010

  Dear George,
  That literal translation as you pointed out made me stop to think long and hard where it came from... you're right it should literally translate to "day of crowdedness". Having thought about it I don't think there is no reference in the HOLy BIBle or church teachings about it is such but unfortunately that's an islamic thought as they believe the final day peoples will be "crammed" together... in Arabic: "yowm al7ashr"!
• miskande

  December 2010

  [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10190.msg125622#msg125622 date=1293576970]
  [quote author=ophadece link=topic=10190.msg125093#msg125093 date=1292962269]
  Very true jydeacon,
  Orthodox teachings don't agree with what's mentioned in those melodies following taodokeya parts "intercede for us on judgment day". There is no such a thing the our church teaches. Intercessions stop short of ON judgment day. Please note in vespers prayers we allude to the fact that intercessions will only suffice at the departure of the soul not judgment day.
  
  
  What makes it more comical is that the actual phrase "Judgement day" in Arabic is literally translated, "the day of crowding". Now living 20 years in NY and walking through the streets of Manhattan, I can affirm "the day of crowding" is everyday in NY. The same thing is true with rush hour in LA and 100 different cities around the world. Maybe there is some hidden wisdom here. I did always pray to the Virgin to intercede while I was in traffic. Does that count?
  
  I know I shouldn't joke. But seriously, the image of Judgement day as a day of crowding is a very materialistic, ignorant and unfounded way to imagine the most fearful event in the history of the world.
  
  I know as Orthodox we don't like to change anything. But certain things need to change.
  
  George
  
  
  But don't we say in the prayer from the agpeya:
  "And when my soul departs my body attend to me, and defeat the conspiracy of the enemies, and shut the gates of Hades, lest they might swallow my soul, O you, blameless bride of the true Bridegroom."
  
  So are we being hypocrites everyday as we pray the agpeya?
  Or is it just artistic lisence to allow whoever wrote the madee7 some leeway in word order and imagery?
  
  Many people in Egypt refer to Judgement day as "yom el za7ma" day of crowds because it doesn't give a picture of busy NY streets, but it gives the idea that EVERYONE will be there, from every tribe, country, and century. So if it takes something as silly as "yom el za7ma" to get the point across..then why are we so upset?
• jydeacon

  December 2010

  The issue is in the translation Omelnour, not with what its saying in arabic although its a bit ridiculous and apparent that many of the authors of the madeya7 were very ignorant and not knowledgeable in theology or anything deep in the church.
  
  On the point of the agpeya, we are praying while we are alive and asking her to be with us and take care of our soul as we depart. When we depart the decision is already made.
• miskande

  December 2010

  I agree 100% that the translation doesn't work. But that's true of alot of things in our church which has been translated from Arabic. Either it's poorly translated with bad grammar, or doesn't fit into the original melody, or doesn't make sense whatsoever. I personally think we need new hymns that are written originally in English. (I know I'm going to get alot of heat about this comment, but hear me out). Everything is more beautiful and makes more sense when it is first written because the author has the beauty of language on his side. But once you take that poem, song, hymn, whatever..and try to fit something different into a new tune, it loses its beauty and its meaning.
  So, I guess what I'm saying is: if anyone is talented enough, get to writing!  ;)
  
  
• ophadece

  December 2010

  Dear omelnour,
  It seems you weren't able to grasp what I said nor jydeacon was able to explain them in his post.
  First, we're not hypocrites as in the vespers prayers we ask the Virgin to shut the gates of hell and rescue us from the evil spirits BEFORE (NOT ON) judgment day. That agrees with the church teachings.
  Second, the notion of "yowm el za7ma" is not a Biblical one as far as I understand from both the Old as well as the New Testament. Yes it says "from every nation, from every tribe, from every kingdom" but it never alludes to any crowdedness or cramming as the writer seems to have been influenced by another religion. In fact this latter point is so widespread in Kiahk Arabic melodies more than anything else (not only your love embraced me)
• minatasgeel

  December 2010

  [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10190.msg125088#msg125088 date=1292958425]
  I have to agree with Remenkemi and Ophadece on this one. I really think the entire madeeha should be scrapped. Most of it does not make sense and is in fact theologically incorrect. If we take the verse: Zephaniah proclaimed...He will appear as rain without dew. He never said that! Even if you translated Sophonios(as it could be some form of a corrupted Sophia=Wisdom) correctly the flow and entirety of the hymn sounds like nonesense almost. Even if we fix this madeeha or restructure it totally but keeping its tune, there are 100 other mistakes across all the madayah for kiahk 7&4!
  
  in all of my translations, i translate "sofonios" as "Hosea" where the prophecy is clearly stated.
  
  
  
• TITL

  December 2010

  You back?
  
  Upload your recordings please. :)
• geomike

  December 2010

  lol, mina's cover was blown!
• jydeacon

  December 2010

  [quote author=minagir link=topic=10190.msg125792#msg125792 date=1293734313]
  [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10190.msg125088#msg125088 date=1292958425]
  I have to agree with Remenkemi and Ophadece on this one. I really think the entire madeeha should be scrapped. Most of it does not make sense and is in fact theologically incorrect. If we take the verse: Zephaniah proclaimed...He will appear as rain without dew. He never said that! Even if you translated Sophonios(as it could be some form of a corrupted Sophia=Wisdom) correctly the flow and entirety of the hymn sounds like nonesense almost. Even if we fix this madeeha or restructure it totally but keeping its tune, there are 100 other mistakes across all the madayah for kiahk 7&4!
  
  in all of my translations, i translate "sofonios" as "Hosea" where the prophecy is clearly stated.
  
  
  
  
  
  Sofonios doesn't translate to Hosea though mina. If we change it to hosea then what do we do with the arabic madee7a itself?
• minatasgeel

  December 2010

  [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10190.msg125814#msg125814 date=1293746692]
  Sofonios doesn't translate to Hosea though mina. If we change it to hosea then what do we do with the arabic madee7a itself?
  
  
  there was a long discussion about this on ch.net and i was in it with George also.
  George provided a couple of points that doesn't relate "[coptic]Cwfonioc[/coptic]", as it is written as a coptic word in one of the madayeh to "Zephaniah"=صفنيا. i remember proposing the connection of Solomon and wisdom and all of that and he accepted it.
  
  As for the text, this is the comment i have about the term:
  "Sofonios - (This prophecy can be found in Hosea 6:4-3 and also Psalm 72:6. We chose to use “Hosea” to refer to “Sofonios” whenever it is used in the Arabic Kiahk hymns on the basis that the name was misrepresented to keep the order of letters in the Arabic hymns for rhyming reasons)."
• minatasgeel

  December 2010

  [quote author=TITL link=topic=10190.msg125798#msg125798 date=1293735801]
  You back?
  
  Upload your recordings please. :)
  
  yes i am back....and just had a long 7 hour nap to replace all the sleep i missed during the last week in the monastery.
  and come on...you know better i can't finish recordings that fast.
• jydeacon

  December 2010

  [quote author=minagir link=topic=10190.msg125836#msg125836 date=1293764131]
  [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10190.msg125814#msg125814 date=1293746692]
  Sofonios doesn't translate to Hosea though mina. If we change it to hosea then what do we do with the arabic madee7a itself?
  
  
  there was a long discussion about this on ch.net and i was in it with George also.
  George provided a couple of points that doesn't relate "[coptic]Cwfonioc[/coptic]", as it is written as a coptic word in one of the madayeh to "Zephaniah"=صفنيا. i remember proposing the connection of Solomon and wisdom and all of that and he accepted it.
  
  As for the text, this is the comment i have about the term:
  "Sofonios - (This prophecy can be found in Hosea 6:4-3 and also Psalm 72:6. We chose to use “Hosea” to refer to “Sofonios” whenever it is used in the Arabic Kiahk hymns on the basis that the name was misrepresented to keep the order of letters in the Arabic hymns for rhyming reasons)."
  
  
  I remember that discussion. I remember the consensus was that Sofonios was most likely a corruption of the word Sofia, refering to either the wisdom of solomon or the psalm he wrote. I don't remember it refering to hosea though.
• minatasgeel

  December 2010

  [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10190.msg125852#msg125852 date=1293778654]
  I remember that discussion. I remember the consensus was that Sofonios was most likely a corruption of the word Sofia, refering to either the wisdom of solomon or the psalm he wrote. I don't remember it refering to hosea though.
  
  the prophecy is found in the clearest form in Hosea 6:3-4:
  3 Let us acknowledge the LORD; let us press on to acknowledge him. As surely as the sun rises, he will appear; he will come to us like the winter rains, like the spring rains that water the earth." 4 "What can I do with you, Ephraim? What can I do with you, Judah? Your love is like the morning mist, like the early dew that disappears.
  
  Also there is a version of The Burning Bush (source is arabic of course) that says, "sa'h hosha' we khabbar" = "Hosea proclaimed and taught" to replace, "Sofonios khabbar" = "Sofonios taught"
• TITL

  December 2010

  Are you going to upload them on tasbeha?
• Remnkemi

  December 2010

  [quote author=minagir link=topic=10190.msg125792#msg125792 date=1293734313]
  in all of my translations, i translate "sofonios" as "Hosea" where the prophecy is clearly stated.
  
  Clearly stated? Really? There are 5 instances of Zephaniah's prophecy in Kiahk Praise. 4 say, "He will appear as dew and rain". As you stated, it probably comes from Hosea 6:3, "Let us acknowledge the LORD; let us press on to acknowledge him. As surely as the sun rises, he will appear; he will come to us like the winter rains, like the spring rains that water the earth.” Notice there is no mention of the Lord's birth, nor reference to the Virgin. This verse seems to be a reference to the Lord's coming in general. The chapter in Hosea is about repentance.
  
  Now look at Ezekiel 1:28, "Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking." This verse directly speaks of the appearance of the glory of the Lord, which can be understood as Christ's Incarnation. Again no reference to the Virginal birth or the coming of Jesus as implied in the Kiahk Psalmody.
  
  The "prophecy" becomes more obscure in the fifth reference found in the Thursday Kiahk Madeha, "The Burning Bush". In this medeha, Zephaniah (or Sophonios) says, "He will come as rain without cloud." This is clearly not mentioned in Hosea 6:3. In fact, there is no mention anywhere in the Bible about rain without cloud. There is mention of clouds without rain in Jude 1:12, "They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead." The chapter is talking about hypocrisy. Again, nothing to do with Jesus' coming.
  
  I checked the Apocalypse of Zephaniah, which ironically only exists in Coptic. There is no mention of rain at all. Neither is there any mention of the Lord coming as rain without cloud in any pseudo-epigraphic apocalypse texts of the Old or New Testaments. And there is no mention of the Lord coming or appearing as rain without cloud in any other Coptic liturgical, or hagiographic texts that I can find.
  
  So we're back to where we started. We have ambiguous texts only found in Kiahk praise that seem to have no biblical or patristic origin. The only logical conclusion is that modern, apparently uneducated, overly simple, anonymous hymnographers confabulated "prophecies" from an unknown prophet about Christ's birth. I hope I'm wrong.
  
  One thing is for sure. Nothing is clear in Kiahk priase
  George