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Today is Courts Ruling on the murders of Nagi Hamadi
Today is meant to be the courts ruling of the murders of Nagi Hamadi. Last thing i heard was that the court said it is manslaughter i.e unintentional murder!!!!!!!!!! Does anyone have any news on the final ruling???
Egypt is a state of chaos my friends mum is in Shobra and she is saying that she cant even leave the house because of the people protesting on the streets. She is saying that even the muslims on the streets are joining with the christians and protesting. God has a purpose for everything, maybe this was his way of uniting SOME of the muslims and christians together.
On a different note my friends dad is an old priest in egypt, and he was telling us last night that he got a call from egypt saying that H.G Anba Basanti (i think) was on his was back to the monastery, and as soon as he got out and the car was parked (in the garage), the car blew up. But they dont know yet whether it was a leakage from the car or an amateur bomb. Thank God no one was hurt.
Remember everyone in Egypt in your prayers
Egypt is a state of chaos my friends mum is in Shobra and she is saying that she cant even leave the house because of the people protesting on the streets. She is saying that even the muslims on the streets are joining with the christians and protesting. God has a purpose for everything, maybe this was his way of uniting SOME of the muslims and christians together.
On a different note my friends dad is an old priest in egypt, and he was telling us last night that he got a call from egypt saying that H.G Anba Basanti (i think) was on his was back to the monastery, and as soon as he got out and the car was parked (in the garage), the car blew up. But they dont know yet whether it was a leakage from the car or an amateur bomb. Thank God no one was hurt.
Remember everyone in Egypt in your prayers
Comments
Its in all the news papers
Let's hope now they just say the truth (i.e. expose Al Ghoule)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12201318
This ruling seems to be a definitive one because his file will be transferred to the Mufty.
May God comfort some of the martyrs' families with His justice.
Court ruling for the other two accomplices is postponed till a 20th of February session.
EDIT: I found this clip on YouTube (Arabic):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JYjsPY0nVs
Let us thank the Lord and ask His help for justice to be applied on all the other criminals.
GBU
That was anba Matthaos the head of el Sourian monastery. First they said the petrol tank in his car exploded as he came back from Cairo (ie a long journey... hehehehe) and later confirmed that they found an explosive tin can as the one used in Alexandria and the one they found in El Minia church, the latter was found in the ladies' toilet and was detonated by the police.
Anyway it's said that that explosive was implanted by someone from Cairo, but the case ended since it only exploded damaging the garage only, ie no loss of life... hehehehe, as did the case of el Minia as it was detonated... hehehehe
CAn't laugh any harder guys. Sorry
Oujai
Man Sentenced to Death for Coptic shooting
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2011/01/16/world/international-us-egypt-christian-trial.html?_r=1
Forgive me, and thanks for the update, last thing i heard was that they were getting a bomb technician and he going to make the ruling. About the bomb at El Minia church, i heard that it was behind the altar?
Bit of topic but i think that a death sentence for any criminal is too harsh, life in prison is way more painful. And to some of these terrorist a death sentence is exactly wat the want. But to take anyway one's freedom FOR LIFE, that can't be more tormenting, plus he/they might actually get a shot at redemption. I know a death sentence sounds more just and satisfying (after all he took so many lives away), this to me sounds like an eye for an eye- what happened to forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us (this doesn't mean that he shouldn't be jailed for life, because thats justice). I know Jesus said all who take the sword will perish by the sword, but he didn't mean it literally- or did he?
what do u guys think?
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,2839.0.html
Please remember me in your prayer
I think the death sentence is not harsh enough, they should lock up the guy in a maximum security prison for life and take really good care of him so he can live until he's 120, he deserves maximum punishment (unless the Egyptian Government and Ultimately, Mubarak, decided to take a few random people from the streets and accuse them of the murders and kill them to show the world they are doing something, but in fact they are not.)
I dont think the death penalty is a good sentence, we are not God, we should not decide whether a man lives or dies, this is entirely up to our Lord, the creator.. Only he can take life. Nevertheless, you shouldn't worry about the death sentence not being harsh enough because it definitely is, your forgetting, next stop, face to face with our Lord Jesus Christ who takes it upon himself to avenge the martyrs Romans 12 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
[quote author=Abanoub. link=topic=10473.msg127190#msg127190 date=1295234333]
I think the death sentence is not harsh enough, they should lock up the guy in a maximum security prison for life and take really good care of him so he can live until he's 120, he deserves maximum punishment (unless the Egyptian Government and Ultimately, Mubarak, decided to take a few random people from the streets and accuse them of the murders and kill them to show the world they are doing something, but in fact they are not.)
I dont think the death penalty is a good sentence, we are not God, we should not decide whether a man lives or dies, this is entirely up to our Lord, the creator.. Only he can take life. Nevertheless, you shouldn't worry about the death sentence not being harsh enough because it definitely is, your forgetting, next stop, face to face with our Lord Jesus Christ who takes it upon himself to avenge the martyrs Romans 12 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
i actually think sometimes IT IS the best sentence....if a person doesn't repent from such consequence of his action, what else would?! there are actually a great true story of someone who was sentenced to death and repented to the point that a photo was taken of him on the way to be put to death, SMILING...this is shown in an actual photo that was published in the news paper. the guy was a disciple of Abouna Bishoy Kamil (i think). this true story was put in a movie in egypt......i just can't rmemeber where it is...
[quote author=Abanoub. link=topic=10473.msg127190#msg127190 date=1295234333]
I think the death sentence is not harsh enough, they should lock up the guy in a maximum security prison for life and take really good care of him so he can live until he's 120, he deserves maximum punishment (unless the Egyptian Government and Ultimately, Mubarak, decided to take a few random people from the streets and accuse them of the murders and kill them to show the world they are doing something, but in fact they are not.)
I dont think the death penalty is a good sentence, we are not God, we should not decide whether a man lives or dies, this is entirely up to our Lord, the creator.. Only he can take life. Nevertheless, you shouldn't worry about the death sentence not being harsh enough because it definitely is, your forgetting, next stop, face to face with our Lord Jesus Christ who takes it upon himself to avenge the martyrs Romans 12 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
I actually think the death penalty is suitable for this situation. knowing Egypt and its government, the like to make a court ruling to shut the people up and let the criminals go. the death penalty will assure that justice is served. concerning if we agree with it or not...we are not making the decisions, its the judge.
[li]In your answer to the question How does the Coptic Orthodox Church view Capital Punishment?, all the examples you used of people that died as a result of their sins was the choice of God not of humans; however, capital punishment is people dying with the choice of humans. I just don’t understand why we should choose when to end one’s life. Wouldn’t life imprisonment be a much better choice where the sinner has time to repent? If Saul had been sentenced to death penalty, there wouldn’t be a St. Paul and those 14 epistles wouldn’t have existed. And if Moses the Black had been sentenced to death penalty we wouldn’t have a saint by the name of St. Moses the Black in our church and in heaven praying for us.
In God's infinite wisdom, most of the laws in civilized countries have adapted some form or another of the Ten Commandments and/or other biblical references. God's governing hand is clearly evident in the believing societies that existed in the Old Testament, the New Testament, and in today's many cultures. Each transgression has an equally punitive consequence. If people were left to their own evil desires, rampant destruction throughout the world would have consumed it long ago. But, because of the just consequences which were initially established by God, law and order systems were essentially the much needed result to secure some kind of civility.
St. Paul had a unique zealous character, when he was a Jew, and moreso as a Christian. However, as a Christian, he readily accepted his fate of imprisonment and persecution rather than inflicting it. St. Moses the Strong is an amazing saint known for his repentance. However, he too accepted his fate for the recompense of his previous transgressions, which he believed would conclude with his own martyrdom, There were many periods in history in which Christianity was outlawed, yet, there is no saint mentioned who rejected the death penalty for the sake of Christ. You may argue, well that is because it was for the sake of Christ, and maybe so. However, by the constitution of the nations in which they lived, and their wicked governors, the martyres were considered outlaws and were thus sentenced to death.
As our God is merciful and just, He teaches us to respectfully apply the same principles of mercy and justice. The Death Penalty is the ultimate punishment prescribed to the few criminals who commit the most violent and heinous premeditated crimes, and/or is usually considered in the sentencing of repeat offenders of such horrific assaults. Although many societies used the biblical framework of the law, many abused it. This is where the tortures and killings of Christians were justified. The knowledgeable and law abiding citizen, St. Paul the Apostle, appealed the accusations brought against him and his contingent maltreatment before the rulers, spoke boldly in his own defense, but yet, was willing to accept the death penalty if warranted. "For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them" (Acts 25:11).
In regards to foolish prophets who led people astray, the Holy Scriptures says, "And you will profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies" (Ez. 13:19). Here, we realize that the seriousness of the law justifies the death penalty as well as the punishment of an accomplice to a crime just as the person himself who commits the crime.
[/li]
[li]In your answer to the question here http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1001&catid=61 you said that there is no verse in the New Testament against capital punishment; but, what about Matthew 5:38-48
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away." 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
This is a great excerpt from the Holy Gospel according to St. Matthew which teaches many principles in our day to day life. It is not necessarily only particular to the functional state of civil and criminal law. If it was strictly about compassion, how then does society turn the other cheek when a serial killer kidnaps a child and brutally rapes him/her? God allows for the law of the land to step in and execute swift and decisive fair justice. Mind you, whatever justice is imposed on earth, it will not in any way compare to God's wrath and judgment for the oppressors on their day. If the concern is the repentance of the criminal, be assured that in the United States, the legal system provides ample time for the convicted criminal to repent. S/he does not to live to be 100 years old in order to repent. A contrite spirit does not only come by length of days, but by readiness of heart. The example in the New Testament that illustrates this point is the two thieves who were crucified with our Lord. All their circumstances which led to their execution were similar. Their society concluded that their criminal behavior warranted the death penalty, and that both of these men would lose their life before their time. One freely chose and obtained Salvation and the other one freely chose not to, although death was staring him right in the face as well.
"But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for the sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust" (1 Tim. 1:8-11).
By bringing up the story of the two thieves on the cross, is your grace concluding that if someone does not repent even when death is staring him in the eye, he will never repent?
Time is precious. Wisdom plays an important part in this crucial decision to repent or not to repent. No one knows his length of days. However, when one is faced with a matter that numbers his days, it would be foolishness to neglect his pending fate. Everyone, ought to be diligent in setting things right with God and to reconcile with others, while it is still possible. "But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul will be required of you" (Luke 12:20).
[/li]
[li]Also, in John 8, there was a woman caught in adultery, and everyone was ready to stone her. And then they asked Jesus and told Him "Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" Then Jesus answered and said "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first".
There are many things to be learned from this story that pertain to the subject being discussed. When the pharisees ask Jesus, they say that Moses commanded that such should be stoned. Moses could represent what the world says and what the state says about capital punishment. Jesus therefore represents the Christian beliefs and perspectives on capital punishment. Notice how Jesus says, "He who is without sin" and not, 'He who has not committed adultery'. Thus we are all sinners and have no right to judge or stone anyone for WHATEVER sin they committed, for that is only God's decision who is without sin.
Our Lord repeatedly tried to hold a mirror up to the Pharisees, so that they may see their hypocrisy and change their ways. Christ did not tell them that they cannot stone her, but pressed them to first acknowledge their own sins, that they may also be healed. Perhaps some of them were among those with whom she had committed adultery? The Pharisees would not own up to any of their wrongdoings which negatively impacted society, the believers, and the non-believers. Our Lord frequently reminded the people that He was not here to change or end the law, but to add to it. "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one title of the law to fail" (Luke 16:17). Therefore, the premises of the Law remain. Love and grace are above the Law, but can nevertheless be applied within the constraints and execution of the Law.
"If anyone has an ear, let him hear. He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Rev. 13:9,10).
[/li]
Unfortunately with so many bots (I have 1633 requests to join Tasbeha to check over the last couple of days, of which 2 will be real people) we have to do all we can to prevent the site being flooded again.
I check the spam folder a few times a day and release whatever good messages are there.
Father Peter
i actually think sometimes IT IS the best sentence....if a person doesn't repent from such consequence of his action, what else would?! there are actually a great true story of someone who was sentenced to death and repented to the point that a photo was taken of him on the way to be put to death, SMILING...this is shown in an actual photo that was published in the news paper. the guy was a disciple of Abouna Bishoy Kamil (i think). this true story was put in a movie in egypt......i just can't rmemeber where it is...
It was actually father Michael Ibrahim, and the young man's name is Magdy Yassa.
Very lovely story..
[quote author=Abanoub. link=topic=10473.msg127190#msg127190 date=1295234333]
I think the death sentence is not harsh enough, they should lock up the guy in a maximum security prison for life and take really good care of him so he can live until he's 120, he deserves maximum punishment (unless the Egyptian Government and Ultimately, Mubarak, decided to take a few random people from the streets and accuse them of the murders and kill them to show the world they are doing something, but in fact they are not.)
I dont think the death penalty is a good sentence, we are not God, we should not decide whether a man lives or dies, this is entirely up to our Lord, the creator.. Only he can take life. Nevertheless, you shouldn't worry about the death sentence not being harsh enough because it definitely is, your forgetting, next stop, face to face with our Lord Jesus Christ who takes it upon himself to avenge the martyrs Romans 12 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Easy there!
Look, as Coptic Christians, JUSTICE DOES NOT EQUAL REVENGE.
I.e. we are not glad the person is going to die. We are glad that they have been fairly convicted. The punishment for such a crime IS hanging. We didn't set the rules. Had Egypt been a predominately a Christian Country, the man (AL KAMOONY) would have got life in prison.
For once, in the HISTORY OF EGYPT, a muslim has slaughtered Coptic Christians and NOT been found mentally insane. This is why we are happy.. because the judgement has been fair.
If a coptic christian was the criminal he too should face the equal punishment of the state.
Again, because he is going to be hanged, is neither here nor there. That's just a technicality. In fact, as a Coptic Orthodox Christian, I wish Mr Kamoony all the luck in the world, and a very enjoyable hanging. I will not enjoy his death at all. I'm just glad that the law has been fair (FOR ONCE!).
Really. I mean that from all my heart.
Second, the story minatasgeel was referring to was about this guy, Magdy Yassa according to TSF, who murdered another guy (for whatever reason), felt bad for doing so, and confessed to his FOC, Abouna Mikhail. Since confession is top secret and priests aren't allowed to repeat anything they hear (HIPPA Law), Abouna Mikhail asked Magdy to turn himself in. Doing so would result in death penalty, but he did it anyway. And he lived happily ever after. The end.
Third, in regards to what Thoxsasi said: Why would Christians find happiness as a result of someone having a fair punishment (and if we're talking about eternal damnation, I don't think that's fair.. but I'm not God, so I won't get into that). The way I see it is that we are happy because we're reuniting with our Father, not bc Muslims (I had to say it) earned what they deserved.
That pretty much covers it, I think.
First, I'd like to say that I agree with everything Meena_Ameen has stated.
Second, the story minatasgeel was referring to was about this guy, Magdy Yassa according to TSF, who murdered another guy (for whatever reason), felt bad for doing so, and confessed to his FOC, Abouna Mikhail. Since confession is top secret and priests aren't allowed to repeat anything they hear (HIPPA Law), Abouna Mikhail asked Magdy to turn himself in. Doing so would result in death penalty, but he did it anyway. And he lived happily ever after. The end.
Third, in regards to what Thoxsasi said: Why would Christians find happiness as a result of someone having a fair punishment (and if we're talking about eternal damnation, I don't think that's fair.. but I'm not God, so I won't get into that). The way I see it is that we are happy because we're reuniting with our Father, not bc Muslims (I had to say it) earned what they deserved.
That pretty much covers it, I think.
Like I mentioned: Justice DOES NOT equal Revenge.
Justice means that the person has been found guilty and will face the full weight of the law.
We should be glad for this because we, as Copts, have been protesting that we are discriminated against. How many crimes were committed against Copts where the criminal was found "mentally ill"?? ALL OF THEM!
So, all crazy people, in Egypt, are sane all their lives, and then all of a sudden, when they decide to kill a Coptic Christian, are labelled "mentally ill"? Is that justice?
There is no revenge. I am not taking ANY joy in his hanging.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10473.msg127206#msg127206 date=1295241615]
i actually think sometimes IT IS the best sentence....if a person doesn't repent from such consequence of his action, what else would?! there are actually a great true story of someone who was sentenced to death and repented to the point that a photo was taken of him on the way to be put to death, SMILING...this is shown in an actual photo that was published in the news paper. the guy was a disciple of Abouna Bishoy Kamil (i think). this true story was put in a movie in egypt......i just can't rmemeber where it is...
It was actually father Michael Ibrahim, and the young man's name is Magdy Yassa.
Very lovely story..
YESS,,,,,thanks.
Egypt is facing a lot of pressure to show that it treats christians and muslims the same. They're just trying to cover their butts, and calm Christians down. They don't realize that the time for that has passed.