Hi guys!
I wonder if you've already talked on this subject. I found this very interesting:
The president and founder of "Voice of the Copts", Dottore Architetto Ashraf Ramelah, made the following apeal:
"Regarding Public demonstration of Copts on January 9, 2011 in Milan, Italy We are appalled at the Copts’ rejection of fellow protesters who were draped in the Israeli national flag as a show of solidarity with Israel and the Jews.
We strongly condemn the actions of those Coptic Christians (mostly immigrants living in Italy) against the Italian citizens who joined them for the same fight against a common enemy.
This display of anti-Semitism has no place in our struggle for freedom in the world today.
Voice of the Copts stands together with the Jews of Israel and Jews around the world to confront the vicious attacks stemming from a religious and political ideology aimed against each and every one of us who are non-Muslim.
Furthermore, as Christians we stand upon the Biblical precept that we are grafted into the promises of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, a legacy which serves as the basis of our support of the Jews and their inheritance, and we join with them in their suffering.
Those of us who live in Egypt or have loved ones there may in fear or ignorance act out against the Jews, but these sentiments are in no way right or acceptable and will surely lead to devastating results for Copts, politically and religiously.
In addition, as Israel is a sovereign state recognized by the entire world, including the Egyptian regime, Copts have a choice to either align themselves with Islamic hatred or to align themselves with the official stance of their government. There is absolutely no justification for the former, for even if this position actually serves to reduce the Islamic bomb attacks, shootings and kidnappings which take place regularly against Copts, which it clearly does not, it is unconscionable.
We thank God for Israel, the one free democratic country within the Middle East. We pray for their prosperity and safe-keeping. May America and European countries continue to support and strengthen Israel! "
What do you guys think?
Comments
To answer the question on a general basis: YES.
Anti-semitism is one thing, anti-Israel is another..
The Israeli government refuses to implement judicial decisions in favour of the Copts,
they are also a racist government,
in breach of many many rules of international law (especially humanitarian and human rights law)
they are hypocrits.
it is sorta in our ancient blood though....
The Israeli government's treatment to Palestinians is many times hypocritical. Israeli government's treatment to the Coptic Church specifically is also hypocritical. They gave away Dair al Sultan to the Ethiopians when it was clearly given to the Copts since the Crusades.
Most importantly, Coptic nationalism to Egypt is more important than solidarity in foreign countries with a perceived enemy. Associating with Jews is a red flag to all Muslim countries because of Islamic anti-Israeli attitudes. This would jeopardize Coptic Egyptian nationalism. One might consider this antisemitic. But the fact is our mother church lives with Muslims in Egypt, not Jews in Italy.
And why assume this Coptic rejection of these protesters is antisemitic? Why can't it be Copts responding to a Jewish anti-Muslim hatred? Why wear Jewish flags in a Coptic rally, if it's not to entice Anti-Islamic hatred? Of course this Ashraf Remelah sees things one way only: Either you align with Islamic hatred or Democratic Israel. Really? Are all Muslims hateful people? Could it be possible that some Muslims (even 1 Muslim) might actually not hate Copts? Or might not be a fundamentalist? And Is Democratic Israel the embodiment of love? Or the embodiment of pro-Coptic policy? Decide for yourself. It's not as one sided as Mr. Remelah makes it.
So who's really anti-Semitic? :-\
Their Egyptian Muslim compatriots nor their government treat them as equals. They are treated as 2nd or 3rd class citizens in their own country, Egypt.
Do you think that if the majority of Palestinians were Christian, there would be peace in the middle east??? Of course!!!
Why? Islam is not about peace. It's about hating non Muslims for the sake of Allah.
Copts were EXTREMELY FOOLISH to reject the support of these Jews.
Copts are EXTREMELY FOOLISH if they think that the answer to their problems is equal legislation for Copts and Muslims. This was dumb.
Has anyone ever heard of the saying: first comes Saturday, then comes Sunday??
First they want to finish off with the Jews, and then it's our turn, the Christians. This is what Muslims say.
Jews aren't just our friends, they are our best friends.
First of all, not all Palestinians are Muslim. There is a small percentage that are Christian.
The Israeli government's treatment to Palestinians is many times hypocritical. Israeli government's treatment to the Coptic Church specifically is also hypocritical. They gave away Dair al Sultan to the Ethiopians when it was clearly given to the Copts since the Crusades.
Most importantly, Coptic nationalism to Egypt is more important than solidarity in foreign countries with a perceived enemy. Associating with Jews is a red flag to all Muslim countries because of Islamic anti-Israeli attitudes. This would jeopardize Coptic Egyptian nationalism. One might consider this antisemitic. But the fact is our mother church lives with Muslims in Egypt, not Jews in Italy.
And why assume this Coptic rejection of these protesters is antisemitic? Why can't it be Copts responding to a Jewish anti-Muslim hatred? Why wear Jewish flags in a Coptic rally, if it's not to entice Anti-Islamic hatred? Of course this Ashraf Remelah sees things one way only: Either you align with Islamic hatred or Democratic Israel. Really? Are all Muslims hateful people? Could it be possible that some Muslims (even 1 Muslim) might actually not hate Copts? Or might not be a fundamentalist? And Is Democratic Israel the embodiment of love? Or the embodiment of pro-Coptic policy? Decide for yourself. It's not as one sided as Mr. Remelah makes it.
ah, glad to see at least one enlightened mind who has not been brainwashed yet.. very well said Remnkimi..
I have watched the forums over the last few weeks as new topics and posts are created on an almost daily basis concerning either the faith of Muslims or some sort of politically related discussion. I have seen forum members openly criticizing other faiths and countries, and often in inappropriate ways. It seems to me that we have lost sight of what it is that the purpose of this forum is; it has transformed over the last few months from an Orthodox forum whose primary focus was on understanding the subtle intricacies of our faith into an international chat room, where each person comes and expresses their opinion on some topic or another that is occurring in the world around us. I do not suggest that we should be oblivious to our surroundings, but we must regain our focus, as well as our composure, here on these forums. We have an increasingly growing amount of young members that are joining the forums that are now subjected to what amounts to be tirades against other belief systems and peoples. When did we become so well versed in our own faith, in the faith of our Fathers, so saturated with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that we now imagine ourselves to be worthy and justified in going out and criticizing others? I am not suggesting that we simply accept any and all other belief systems without reservations, but there exists a certain wisdom in discussing such topics, and certainly, we are not all called to the service of comparative theology. We are here to learn our faith; we are not here as though this were a social gathering of people who share a common background. We are here to ask the questions that may otherwise allude our understanding, and to seek a proper type of wisdom. Time and time again, blanket statements are made by forum members that openly criticize different faiths, and I wonder to myself how truly well versed we are in these other religions to be able to make such claims. I would be thoroughly surprised if each person here could explain how we can consolidate the common view of the difference in God's attitude in the Old and New Testaments, much less go out and criticize others in their faith in a book that almost none of us have actually read or studied in detail, and only operate on hearsay and "common knowledge" to guide our discussions. Let us focus on our own faith first, seeking to obtain the proper foundation for our own understanding first and foremost, that we may go out and serve the people of this world properly, not to belittle them. I would also like to remind you all that these forums are public and that anyone in the entire world can read our words. I would caution each and every one of us to watch the words that we say, as they may do far more harm than we realize, thinking that we are simply stating our viewpoints to one another, while in fact, we may be inciting anger in others who we appear to be so callous towards.
We turn to God and His Church for our strength. Let us not forget that, and perhaps, we may kindle a desire within each one of our minds and hearts to discover more about God and His Church in the proper Orthodox manner.
childoforthodoxy
I think you have provided excellent points.
What you have said has also weighed heavily on my mind. I did not appreciate many things about Israel, and generally, I tend to find some Jews to be a bit racist.
Many of these Jews are the ones asking us to start a civil war in Egypt. I have heard this personally from them.
This is out of hatred for us AND Muslims. It will truly result in the annihilation of our church.
So, I know what you are saying.
However, why was our church attacked?? For what reason??
Was it Jewish or Muslim terrorists?
Do you see a racist Jew going around blowing himself up in german restaurants??
If Palestine was MAJORITY Christian, would there be a 2 state solution in the Holy land? In fact, if Islam was not even in the equation, there would be One state with everyone living in peace.
So, we supported, as a church, the Palestinians, and their cause, yet we are still attacked.
We are not occupying Iraq nor Afghanistan, yet we are still attacked.
We are the indigenous people of Egypt, yet we are still attacked.
Are jews doing this to us?
This makes me wonder a bit: if we are kind of supportive towards Muslims and we are their fellow countrymen and they treat us this badly, what will they do with their enemies??
I find it dangerous and extremely foolish when Copts go around saying that this massacre has united Egypt. They easily forget the blood of the copts who died throughout the centuries because of islam.
I think you will all agree with one thing:
Before 9-11, Copts were very vocal about the dangers of Islam and the persecution of non Muslims in Egypt. No one listened.
HH Pope Shenouda addressed the Carter administration concerning the persecution and discrimination of Copts in Egypt. He was dissmissed and nothing was taken seriously.
Only until 9/11, did it propel Islam into the spotlight.
People everywhere were using the history of the Coptic Church in Egypt as a reference of the violent and brutal history and ideology of Islam.
It is foolish to be friends with those who do not see you as friends , whose sympathy for you is only a facade to hide the real nature of their intent to reduce you and subdue you.
I agree with you to a certain extent, this forum has taken up a very extremistic turn lately, I don't see much of what is Christian on it anymore, certainly it does not provide a good image for anyone who visits here..
When I first joined, there used to be theological discussions which benefitted me a lot, I don't see those anymore, at least not the way it used to be..
And I also agree with you 100% concerning the fact that there have been a lot of discussions about Islam, and most people on this forum have not studied the religion enough to be able to speak about it in a rational manner.. in fact, most of us, as you stated, don't even know our own religion well..
@Zoxasi:
You make assumptions out of thin air: if Palestine was a a majority christian country, and they were the indigineous people (as the Copts are in Egypt) and they are thrown out of their homes and lands like dogs only to see a Jewish family from America or Europe come and live in their homes and take what is theirs I doubt the reaction would have been any different..
The problem with extremist Jews is the same problem with extremist Muslims, they don't see a difference between religion and state, it's one thing for them.. Some Jews believe Israel is their God-given land and that this justifies whatever crimes they commit, similarily some Muslims believe that political conflicts are in fact religious conflicts and they don't believe that state and religion should be separate.
There are also Jews who see this grave mistake, this wrong way of thinking, and who openly show their disgust of the crimes that the Israeli government commits and commited against the Palistinians (a crime is a crime, whether it the victim is a Muslim or a Christian), as well as Muslims who oppose what their governments are doing and have been calling for secularism..
In the end, what matters is what people do, because (and this goes for Christians also) people don't always act according to what they say they believe..
You make assumptions out of thin air: if Palestine was a a majority christian country, and they were the indigineous people (as the Copts are in Egypt) and they are thrown out of their homes and lands like dogs only to see a Jewish family from America or Europe come and live in their homes and take what is theirs I doubt the reaction would have been any different..
Truthsetsfree you make the most sense I've heard in a long time.
I was very much against Israeli occupation of Palestine. I said to my foc that I thought it was excellent that the pope defended and supported the Palestinians. He said that this was ONLY for political purposes. That the Palestinians are trouble makers, that he knows for CERTAIN that they sold their land to the israelis. After selling it, they then came out with lies that it had been occupied/stolen.
Also, persecution of Coptic Christians happened way before the state of Israel existed.
Also, for childoforthodoxy, the more I study the Quran , the more I see the violence and hatred within it. There is peace in Islam, but only if everyone submits to Islam.
Go and see the video of sayed al qimni who explains how Islam came to Egypt and subdued all minorities. Read at how non Muslims had to walk on the other side of the street if a Muslim was walking on the same side.
Mohammad spread his ideology by force. You cannot deny that.
Indeed Egypt has a peace agreement with Israel - it was Egypt that made the first step to that - but any Egyptian disagrees with the crimes against innocent humanity that their state is repeatedly doing for years without remorse on a daily basis. We condemn their cold blooded evil deeds in as much as we do not accept their criminal state's support, obviously they displayed their flag didn't they? They have been fueling hate in the ME area for decades. A reminder: many of the Israeli blood thirsty leaders are now afraid to be arrested and questioned if they travel.
Not so long ago their foreign minister humiliated the European Union without any protests made. They also wanted an officially approved Jewish fanatic state. They killed and wounded many innocent pacifists under the eyes of the world when they attacked the multinational humanitarian Turkish boat. They are stealing properties and destroying buildings, productive fields and valuable trees daily. Their ways are death, suffering and destruction with no mercy even towards little children. These evil deeds are known as "state terrorism". May be these people think because we are peaceful that we are also naive and stupid.
This is not a general stance against all Jews but only against those who are described above, them they are the racists not us. It's as simple as that: deal with others like you expect them to deal with you.
May the Lord open your eyes to see what's going on.
GBU
if Palestine was a a majority christian country, and they were the indigineous people (as the Copts are in Egypt) and they are thrown out of their homes and lands like dogs only to see a Jewish family from America or Europe come and live in their homes and take what is theirs I doubt the reaction would have been any different..
This might not be wrong 100% of the time (after all, George Habash, a Christian Palestinian and secularist, led a quite violent organization), but it also might not be right. Look at, for instance, the non-violent resistance in the town of Beit Sahour (80% Christian) during the first and second intifada. They used non-violent means, like the tax resistance of 1989, to resist the unjust Israeli occupation. This brought a lot of international attention to the cruelty of the Israeli government (which in response blocked food shipments to the town, cut its electricity, and placed it under curfew). It didn't stop the Israeli occupation, of course, but then neither does blowing anybody up on a bus...
The fact is, Christians have different values than their fellow Muslim citizens. I think it is undebatable that Christian values produce healthier, more just societies than Muslim values do (or, if it is debatable, I would not expect to have that debate on this forum, of all places). That doesn't mean that if Christians were the majority there would always be peace, but it does mean that the closer people adhere to Christian values (no matter what their religion is), the more peaceful and just they are, and the cumulative effect of many people being peaceful and just is a more peaceful and just society.
I see some guys attempting to silence Christians from expressing their opinions. Orthodox Christians are free to talk about anything. Actually, censorship of religious opinion is one of the first hallmarks of tyranny, and a staple of Islamic countries. They seem to be sensitive and worried not to „insult“ other faiths and their followers, yet, they ignore to notice that they are offending God, by appeasing evil. They say and do things as if Muslims have not hurt anyone. The Egyptian media and Islamic preachers are spewing the most vile and offensive language I have heard of, Muslims are exterminating the Christian population of the Middle East, and you want us to remain silent and do nothing,ehh? I know many Christian forums are infiltrated by those insecure Muslims who even use Christians nicks and avatars to promote their agenda. Whoever you are, whatever your motives would be, in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy spirit, please leave Christians alone, go away from them!
The truth hurts. All most people ever like to do is lie to themselves and others , even when the abyss is staring them right in the face. Only exceptional people face the truth in it's entirety. This world is full of lies that need to be revealed and dealt with now not tomorrow not in another 1000yrs when it is too late. If walls and money could talk , Maybe then the world will be at peace and progress
You know, the likes of Saint Mark were martyred because they courageously spoke out their minds, they stood up for truth, justice and dignity. In today's world, our brothers and sisters in spirit are martyred because we, the vast majority of „believers“ remained mostly silent, indifferent and ignorant.
Just a couple of weeks ago, Christians in Indonesia turned down the offer of Muslim Indonesians to protect Christian Churches. „We don't need your help, only God can protect us!“ was their reply to the offer. Yet, I was puzzled to observe that nobody in Egypt did say something similar when 10 Muslims decided to join Copts during this year's Christmas mass. On one side, Copts turn down solidarity from Jews who have done nothing against them, on the other hand, they welcome Muslims who abuse and murder them, who humiliate and rape their daughters and sisters. What world are we living in?!
Happy Epiphany!
So, you guys are silent. Does it mean you don't like Jews like 99% of the population from the world of Ishmael? May be Egyptians being children of Haghar, identify themselves more with the Palestinians who are not actually Arabs, if they are true Palestinians, than children of Isaac... Idon't know.... Ethiopians, for example say, Egyptians Muslims like other Arab Muslims don't like much Ethiopians. What could be the reason? What is the opinion of Coptic Christians towards Sudanese Christians in the South of the country who are about to becom an independent nation? I think, and many believe, that this sort of things are very important in identifying the true nature of a Christian, Christians in general. Well, it would be interesting to know...
Thanks,
we don't have problems with jews, many of us have jewish friends, but the current government of israel has done a lot of damage in lebanon and palestine, and we find it hard to agree with that.
i know the ottoman empire did the same things to jews (demolishing houses, killing innocent people in their beds etc), and none of us want the state of israel and its inhabitants to be destroyed, but many of us have friends in lebanon and palestine who have lost lives and family members, so we tend not to be major supporters of the current israeli government.
Is that nice bald guy Christian? He must be from America.
They have conducted themselves towards land for peace, but the Palestinians are pigs. They want all of Israel. They have not shown any compromise, only terrorism.
Melchior,
I agree with every word. The problem with Coptics is that they are too stupid and they listen to the propaganda of the conquering masters in the country. They believe the Anti-Semetic rhetoric. They will show christianity to the mulim but not to the Jew. I guess that is what you call selective christianity.
The Palestinians were thrown out of: Lebanon, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Jordan, and Libya.
King Hussein of Jordan slaughtered over 50,000.
The Israeli Government does not want to implement the Sanctions of the Supreme Court regarding Deir El-Sultan (the Monastery of the Archangel Michael) because they are afraid that it will be a precedence towards other religious actions they would have to take including the taking of the Temple Mount for the Jews from the Muslims.
Can anyone spell "The End of the World" if that happens.
They have not looked to kill our people, rape our women, abduct our children, burn our churches, steal our land, steal our identity, deny our human rights, deny our citizenship in our own land and country.
CAN ANYONE POSSIBLY TELL ME WHICH PORTION OF SEMITES HAVE DONE SO?
There are many anti-Semites out there, but among them I think the Muslims and the Evangelical Christians are much, much worse than the Copts could ever be. If a Copt or any Middle Eastern Christian is anti-Semitic it is probably a result of the poisoned cultural and educational environment absorbed from living for so many centuries under Islam, which only recognizes one kind of Semitism as good (can we call it "Islamic Semitism"? It seems stupid, but it's perfect for the concept) and seeks to eliminate all others like the Syriac/Assyrian culture, the Ge'ez/Ethio-Semitic cultures, the Maltese culture, etc. (all the strong, predominantly Christian cultures)
When the Jews are attacked in the Middle East, who is doing it? Is Hezbolkhara' suddenly a Coptic militant group?! ::) The answer to that is obvious, and should be enough to show who is really responsible for the religious violence problems the whole region faces.
Incidentally, the friends I have from Palestine (only Christian so far...maybe I give off some sort of "anti-Islamic" pheromone) do not speak highly of the Israeli government, and I share many of their criticisms. But me and my Palestinian Christian friends can do that without blowing up a bus. Why can't Muslims do the same? Is it maybe because the Jews are the "wrong" kind of Semite to be living in the lovely "Arab-Muslim lands"? Tfeh! >:(
I think this is a really dangerous stance, because according to the Bible, Jews are God's chosen people, and STILL ARE!
Look at what the apostle Paul teaches us in Romans 11:
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Romans 11:1
And in fact, even among the Jews today there are those whom God has granted salvation. St Paul says so himself:
5 So too at the present time there is a remnant (of the Israelites), chosen by grace. Romans 11:5
He also goes on to say:
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
18 DO NOT BE ARROGANT TOWARDS THE BRANCHES (emphasis is mine). If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
ie God used the Jews' rejection of the Messiah as the means by which He granted salvation to the gentiles (ie us).
But they are still His chosen people, and many of them will be saved.
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved (!)
for the sake of their forefathers.
(Note the present tense: they ARE beloved, NOT were beloved)
Lastly, God has a great plan of redemption for them:
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: A PARTIAL hardening has come upon Israel, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED, as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27 and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
Guys these are the words of the scriptures. It seems quite clear to me that if we have been guilty of any kind of disparaging behaviour or attitudes towards Jews, we need to carefully examine the Word of God says about this.
What do people think, are we being taught differently by our parents/church/arabic culture?
"We are appalled at the Copts’ rejection of fellow protesters who were draped in the Israeli national flag as a show of solidarity with Israel and the Jews."
I don't know if this is anti-semitism. I think I may agree with the sentiment that waving the Israeli flag may be akin to waving a red flag before a bull, and makes me wonder, what does it actually achieve?
1. In the first quote I was alluding to the Palestinians--they are Semites also.
2. That is to say that the Israeli Government to remove the Mosque of the Golden Dome on the Temple Mount in order to allow for the rebuilding of the Temple. The Orthodox factions of Judaism and Heavy Evangelicals see that this must be carried out for the Temple to be rebuilt. From the Jewish perspective it is part of the sacred trust to rebuild the Temple. From the Evangelical perspective it is for the Second Coming of Christ.
3. That was not my post so I will leave that person to answer for their own account.
Palestinians weren't on my mind.
They have conducted themselves towards land for peace
You must be kidding.
I hope you are.
Could you spell "naively succomb to propaganda" if you saw it?
hahaha, that one really cracked me up :D
i respect the fact that there are jews in israel and i do not believe they should be blown up or wiped out.
but i disagree with the systematic persecution of palestinians that makes them (worse than) second class citizens in their own territory.
also i have been to israel and palestine (long ago before i was coptic) and have had many jewish and palestinian friends (jewish, athiest, Christian and muslim), so i don't think i have been brain-washed.
because according to the Bible, Jews are God's chosen people, and STILL ARE!
Not any longer! They have lost that special status when they rejected our Lord.
In Colossians 3:11, St Paul says " Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all".
In Romans 10:12, St Paul also says "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek.For the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him".
Everybody is equally welcome to the salvation.