well then im scared of a protestant-orthodox hybrid.... im talking about our future generations, where year after year the foundation is shook until it is completely broken...
I see these songs as a virus that will eventually infect a whole congregation.
[quote author=coptic boy777 link=topic=10538.msg128445#msg128445 date=1296091564] well then im scared of a protestant-orthodox hybrid.... im talking about our future generations, where year after year the foundation is shook until it is completely broken...
I see these songs as a virus that will eventually infect a whole congregation.
I think it is a good sign that, as Father Peter keeps pointing out (and is himself a great example of), it is the converts to Orthodoxy from Protestantism who are, er...protesting the Protestantization (!) most forcefully and wisely (having the experience to know that these things are not harmless fun or in any way good). Maybe a Westernized Coptic generation will be lost to this misguided idea of acculturation or assimilation (I pray that this won't happen!), but if the responses on this board are any indication, a Copticized ("Orthodoxized", more precisely) Western generation will also grow up among them who will work to bring them back.
YES Fr. Peter is correct! It is the former protestants throwing a fit and nobody is really listening. So those of you who care, we need to come together and form some sort of group so we can all discuss our concerns and what to do about it. Is ANYONE else down for defending our beloved church? Is anyone ready to defend the faith of our fathers?
GODlovesme, I somehow knew automatically you were down and I would be honored to have a firecracker like you on board. Now, where do we go from here? We need a website or something.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10538.msg128463#msg128463 date=1296096751] GODlovesme, I somehow knew automatically you were down and I would be honored to have a firecracker like you on board. Now, where do we go from here? We need a website or something.
Like all great protests before this....we need a facebook page :D
yes, Godlovesme (and everyone else who said this), let's work on the alternative and certainly not stop going to church meetings. lets not damage our own spiritual life by staying away from church because 'i am too good for me church', no-one is that holy! so keep asking for change, and patiently wait, appreciating all that is good, and worshiping God as best we can where we are.
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10538.msg128465#msg128465 date=1296097442] Well, the youth who were dissatisfied with this behavior in CA have sent letters to the Bishop. I also plan to write a letter to him about it. There is of course the boycotting. I think also that we should start exemplary youth meetings...for example, at my church, our college youth meeting is directed by a subdeacon at our church and when we sit down, we read what the church fathers have to say about things. We also only learn hymns at our church and the subdeacon who is in church of the college youth meeting is also in charge of the hymns classes and he teaches all of the kids coptic from when they're about 9 years old. He also makes them read certain sections of the Bible and make notes. I think this is how youth meetings should be conducted: learning hymns and singing them (such as tasbeha) and reading the church fathers. At many other churches and youth meetings I have been to, it's all protestant stuff. So we should present them with this alternative.
The translation of Orthodoxy according to the African culture. So, in Africa, the people pray whilst clapping hands, they use guitars and drums IN the Coptic Church. The Bishop there is quite charismatic. He's a brilliant man. Really. but he forgets to tell the youth that they are in Africa. The youth go back to where they came from (UK, France, Canada, USA), and they have the mindset that "its OK to change Orthodox Traditions for the sake of cultural requirements".
Boulos - the bishop of Kenya referred to above- is Protestant ever since he was a layman attending the Pentecostal meetings in Egypt. It is not because of his songs or adaption to african culture, but because of the content of his teachings and practice that lacks any orthodox content.
You cannot blame him for he never hid his true colors. Everybody knew that he is a Protestant when he was ordained, including the one who ordained him. But Orthodox Faith is not the only measure for ordination. Look at the total picture:
Boulos of Kenya is a brilliant business man, able to raise millions of dollars in a day. He is quite connected and social, and charismatic. He is quite popular when it comes to the youth, a darling of aristocratic ladies, eloquent, a media puppy and has excellent political ties.
Many of the servants who are connected to him were recommended to priesthood by him and he has pulled some major strings to get them through the door of priesthood. They got ordained in very critical places like Washington D.C. and Toronto, and they exhibit the same characterstics as their teacher. Everybody knows the content of their faith, and it is 100% Protestant, but they are also money machines who have the ability to raise millions. They are indispensible. You have to be realistic about it.
I have NEVER discussed this issue with user STAVRO - EVER. I've never discussed with him Bishop Boulous. NEVER. I don't think this user even knows me.
But isn't it amazing, how I came to the same conclusion: i.e that the source of the problem IS this bishop?? Isn't that remarkable? I only met Bishop Boulous twice, and from just seeing how he behaves, and a few key things he has said and done, I knew straight away there are going to be problems.
Now, he is an interesting fellow. I must admit that. There's no doubt that he truly loves Christ. But his attitude is undermining and subduing , unwittingly, our Orthodox personality. He is setting the tone for a new era of Ortthodox Christians - Charismatic, Happy Clappy, Praise the Lord-Kumbaya-Me-Lord type Christians.
I actually enjoy hearing him talk. I do. He's very interesting. In fact, truth be told, I have gained a lot from talking to him.
However, there's a problem here that he is unaware of.
Despite his protestant influence on his orthodox spirituality, he is Orthodox. However, he has no idea that a lot of the youth from our Church were Charismatic Evangelicals before becoming Orthodox.
When you get someone who is charismatic and make them orthodox, and you put that person in the same room as a Bishop who is Orthodox yet behaves Charismatically - you'll end up with MORE charismatic christians. This is setting the tone for a new way of prayer.
Look, let's speak logically here for ONE second:
WHAT ON EARTH IS THE PROBLEM? So what if someone wants to clap, pray with the guitar, do anything like that?? SO WHAT?
Well, nothing really, except its place is not in a Church youth meeting. We have our own identity. I don't go to your home and ask that I call you Zoxsasi because my name is Zoxsasi. Do i?
The problems are this also.. forget the happy clappy stuff.. i don't care for that.. Ethiopian Orthodox Christians (SAME CHURCH AS US!) clap and dance during the mass or youth prayer meetings.. SO WHAT?
No.. what worries me is not that. What worries more deeply is the content of the spirituality. Its protestant. Its not Orthodox. Put all the hymns aside, put the guitars aside, and LOOK and LISTEN to how someone protestant sees a Church - its TOTALLY different from us.
As a Coptic Christian, we see a Church a bit like a hospital: A place for the sick to be healed.
Protestants SHUN this idea! They HATE this idea of a Church. THEY LOATH it. They condemn this vision of a Church.
For a protestant, the Church is not a place to come and seek healing through repentance.. NO.. the Church is a place to come and find others who are saved and to "Praise the Lord"
So, an Orthodox Christian is someone who is perpetually repenting, and a protestant is someone in the same Church who is just eager to Praise God.
That sounds great - doesn't it? What's wrong with praising God? NOTHING. We praise God! EVERY DAY! We have the Tasbeha! Its FULL of PRAISE!
So what's the problem with protestant ideology then?
The problem is in the following statement that I just mentioned:
"They loath the idea of the Church as being a place for seeking healing". If they disrespect something they are part of, they will tend to change it, and change with it all aspects of ideologies and teachings that led the Orthodox Church to be Orthodox.
Gentlemen, This is the Trojan Horse we have let in to our Orthodox Church.
I used to attend Charismatic prayer groups, but I went as a laugh. I went out of curiosity. I went because it was an alternative to bars and nightclubs.. it was a great alternative to such places. I remember in one youth meeting, this charismatic leader asked EVERYONE to give a "round of applause" to the Body of Christ - because "Christ was so cool".
The thing is this: I didnt go to back my Orthodox Church and tell them "HEY! Look! Guys, i've just been around a bit, and opened my mind.. and i think we should start livening things up a bit.. let's start clapping during the mass because the Body of Christ is there!!!"
NO!
So, why are they interested in changing our Church? Why are they subduing with what's Orthodox to something that's protestant? Why? What's the gain?
[quote author=AikotiEnsok link=topic=10538.msg128488#msg128488 date=1296104119] [quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10538.msg128070#msg128070 date=1295980422] I have a HUGE problem with guitars.......
Every week in sunday school someone will pull out a guitar and the class will start singing some weird English song!
Even during prayer meetings, someone is playing a piano and they're singing and one time they started to clap to the beat!
This is really annoying! I've asked one of my servants about it and he was like "oh we are praising God" and then he completely ignored me!!
Are any other churches doing this? Is this wrong? Am i overreacting?
If I see another guitar I will smash it over someones head! :D
But seriously though, Guitars Suck!
Hater!
hahaa.... I love you :D..... but your guitar gotta go lol
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=10538.msg128493#msg128493 date=1296110664] yes, Godlovesme (and everyone else who said this), let's work on the alternative and certainly not stop going to church meetings. lets not damage our own spiritual life by staying away from church because 'i am too good for me church', no-one is that holy! so keep asking for change, and patiently wait, appreciating all that is good, and worshiping God as best we can where we are.
Mabsoota I think going to these meetings is damaging.... I've never gained anything from those songs..... it's like hearing a sermon from a sack of potatoes!
Im SERIOUSLY thinking of joining the Greek or the Armenian Orthodox Church over this.
The Russian Church is just BRILLIANT!
You know what they do in their friday meetings??
Guess what??
Go on guess....
OK.. I'll tell u
They read the Philokalia..
They sit down, have a small glass of tea,(Obviously in the Church hall) and they QUIETLY read the books of the Church fathers. That's their "Friday Meetings".
Brilliant.
And guess what - there are LOADS of non russians there.. and the reason why they are there IS because they hate the Charismatic catholics and protestants.
In my monthly Bible Study we begin with prayer, read the passage of Scripture, and then consider what the Fathers have said, discussing how it applies to our own lives.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10538.msg128527#msg128527 date=1296140221] Im SERIOUSLY thinking of joining the Greek or the Armenian Orthodox Church over this.
The Russian Church is just BRILLIANT!
You know what they do in their friday meetings??
Guess what??
Go on guess....
OK.. I'll tell u
They read the Philokalia..
They sit down, have a small glass of tea,(Obviously in the Church hall) and they QUIETLY read the books of the Church fathers. That's their "Friday Meetings".
Brilliant.
And guess what - there are LOADS of non russians there.. and the reason why they are there IS because they hate the Charismatic catholics and protestants.
I don't think abandoning the church is right.... if everyone who hated these protestant influences became Armenian, then what is left of the coptic church?
Our best bet now is to annoy our priests and bishops until someone decides to do something!
Our Church servants, bishops, priests, deacons are OK with this protestant influence. Why the heck would they care if we became Russian or Greek Orthodox for??? Let them change the CoC into a charismatic movement to appease the youth. So what?
That's fine. Why not?? I'm not the owner of the Church. Its not my building personally.
I just like the Orthodox spirituality, prayer, and style.
What's wrong with that??
I have no allegiance to a particular denomination, but rather to a faith and spirituality. My faith is Orthodox and my praying style and manner is orthodox and my spirituality is Orthodox.
The ONLY thing that these Friday meetings in the CoC respect is the Orthodox Faith. It completely disrespects Orthodox Praying Style and Spirituality. COMPLETELY.
All this is done in the hope of being "creative" to bring others to the CoC. That's absolutely fine. I don't mind. I cannot judge them.
But if I wanted to have a Big Mac, and I go to a McDonald's restaurant to eat one, I would be upset if they started serving KFC. Do u get my point ??
Sorry to tell you the Armenians, because of the Protestant influence on them, have abandoned the Sacrament of Confession. They have a general confessional before receiving Communion.
The Greeks have a whole list of issues. Too too long.
Stick with the Coptics. Armenians and Greeks are mostly nationalistic about their churches.
I hope you stay Coptic, because then I can continue to tease you.
I would say many cradle Orthodox do not quite understand comparative theology well enough to see that there is a danger in letting this influence in. Do not leave the church, this is OUR church not theirs. The Ethiopian church has somewhat of a similar problem but its not really entering into the church, its attacks from protestants outside it. The EOTC is way too hardcore to let protestants in.
We all need to keep a level head (This coming from me!) and do what is right. We must continue voicing our discontent to our clergy, with valid explanations and evidence to supports what we are saying (my book is a great reference lol). If we just yell and complain, well nobody is going to want to listen to us. Satan is distracting everyone with islam at the front door that nobody even sees this heresy is sneaking in through the back. We WILL overcome this, there is no doubt in my mind, we always win! for the last 2,000 years who has won? Orthodoxy. Sure it might get a little tough and might even seem a little hopeless, but just look at the past, we always win.
I'm going to make some coffee, warm up, and go outside and deal with the snow. Either I come back in and become nastier or I will be tired and mellow out.
Looking forward to chatting later. I'm sure I will be burned at the stake in absentia. Marshmallows anyone?
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10538.msg128538#msg128538 date=1296142717] When you go among the Russians, they want you to become Russian in order to become Orthodox.
I like the Armenians a lot. I am well-versed in Armenian chants and the Badarak (Liturgy). I just meant that they have their own flaws.
That's not true at all.
The most that I had to do was get a VISA to get into the Russian Church, but other than that, there was no mention of the Church being nationalistic!! STOP THIS NONSENSE!
As I said, i'm going to the greek Orthodox Church. They also do not care if I'm greek or not.
I'm tired.
I'm going home now to make myself a nice souvlaki with Tzaziki, and drink it down with some nice Frappe. (like I always do).
Comments
I see these songs as a virus that will eventually infect a whole congregation.
well then im scared of a protestant-orthodox hybrid.... im talking about our future generations, where year after year the foundation is shook until it is completely broken...
I see these songs as a virus that will eventually infect a whole congregation.
*muwah*
GODlovesme, I somehow knew automatically you were down and I would be honored to have a firecracker like you on board. Now, where do we go from here? We need a website or something.
Like all great protests before this....we need a facebook page :D
I have a HUGE problem with guitars.......
Every week in sunday school someone will pull out a guitar and the class will start singing some weird English song!
Even during prayer meetings, someone is playing a piano and they're singing and one time they started to clap to the beat!
This is really annoying! I've asked one of my servants about it and he was like "oh we are praising God" and then he completely ignored me!!
Are any other churches doing this? Is this wrong? Am i overreacting?
If I see another guitar I will smash it over someones head! :D
But seriously though, Guitars Suck!
Hater!
so keep asking for change, and patiently wait, appreciating all that is good, and worshiping God as best we can where we are.
Well, the youth who were dissatisfied with this behavior in CA have sent letters to the Bishop. I also plan to write a letter to him about it. There is of course the boycotting. I think also that we should start exemplary youth meetings...for example, at my church, our college youth meeting is directed by a subdeacon at our church and when we sit down, we read what the church fathers have to say about things. We also only learn hymns at our church and the subdeacon who is in church of the college youth meeting is also in charge of the hymns classes and he teaches all of the kids coptic from when they're about 9 years old. He also makes them read certain sections of the Bible and make notes. I think this is how youth meetings should be conducted: learning hymns and singing them (such as tasbeha) and reading the church fathers. At many other churches and youth meetings I have been to, it's all protestant stuff. So we should present them with this alternative.
Just my opinion...
Excellent exemplary behaviour.
You cannot blame him for he never hid his true colors. Everybody knew that he is a Protestant when he was ordained, including the one who ordained him. But Orthodox Faith is not the only measure for ordination. Look at the total picture:
Boulos of Kenya is a brilliant business man, able to raise millions of dollars in a day. He is quite connected and social, and charismatic. He is quite popular when it comes to the youth, a darling of aristocratic ladies, eloquent, a media puppy and has excellent political ties.
Many of the servants who are connected to him were recommended to priesthood by him and he has pulled some major strings to get them through the door of priesthood. They got ordained in very critical places like Washington D.C. and Toronto, and they exhibit the same characterstics as their teacher. Everybody knows the content of their faith, and it is 100% Protestant, but they are also money machines who have the ability to raise millions. They are indispensible. You have to be realistic about it.
I have NEVER discussed this issue with user STAVRO - EVER. I've never discussed with him Bishop Boulous. NEVER.
I don't think this user even knows me.
But isn't it amazing, how I came to the same conclusion: i.e that the source of the problem IS this bishop?? Isn't that remarkable? I only met Bishop Boulous twice, and from just seeing how he behaves, and a few key things he has said and done, I knew straight away there are going to be problems.
Now, he is an interesting fellow. I must admit that. There's no doubt that he truly loves Christ. But his attitude is undermining and subduing , unwittingly, our Orthodox personality. He is setting the tone for a new era of Ortthodox Christians - Charismatic, Happy Clappy, Praise the Lord-Kumbaya-Me-Lord type Christians.
I actually enjoy hearing him talk. I do. He's very interesting. In fact, truth be told, I have gained a lot from talking to him.
However, there's a problem here that he is unaware of.
Despite his protestant influence on his orthodox spirituality, he is Orthodox. However, he has no idea that a lot of the youth from our Church were Charismatic Evangelicals before becoming Orthodox.
When you get someone who is charismatic and make them orthodox, and you put that person in the same room as a Bishop who is Orthodox yet behaves Charismatically - you'll end up with MORE charismatic christians. This is setting the tone for a new way of prayer.
Look, let's speak logically here for ONE second:
WHAT ON EARTH IS THE PROBLEM? So what if someone wants to clap, pray with the guitar, do anything like that?? SO WHAT?
Well, nothing really, except its place is not in a Church youth meeting. We have our own identity. I don't go to your home and ask that I call you Zoxsasi because my name is Zoxsasi. Do i?
The problems are this also.. forget the happy clappy stuff.. i don't care for that.. Ethiopian Orthodox Christians (SAME CHURCH AS US!) clap and dance during the mass or youth prayer meetings.. SO WHAT?
No.. what worries me is not that. What worries more deeply is the content of the spirituality. Its protestant. Its not Orthodox. Put all the hymns aside, put the guitars aside, and LOOK and LISTEN to how someone protestant sees a Church - its TOTALLY different from us.
As a Coptic Christian, we see a Church a bit like a hospital: A place for the sick to be healed.
Protestants SHUN this idea! They HATE this idea of a Church. THEY LOATH it. They condemn this vision of a Church.
For a protestant, the Church is not a place to come and seek healing through repentance.. NO.. the Church is a place to come and find others who are saved and to "Praise the Lord"
So, an Orthodox Christian is someone who is perpetually repenting, and a protestant is someone in the same Church who is just eager to Praise God.
That sounds great - doesn't it? What's wrong with praising God? NOTHING. We praise God! EVERY DAY! We have the Tasbeha! Its FULL of PRAISE!
So what's the problem with protestant ideology then?
The problem is in the following statement that I just mentioned:
"They loath the idea of the Church as being a place for seeking healing". If they disrespect something they are part of, they will tend to change it, and change with it all aspects of ideologies and teachings that led the Orthodox Church to be Orthodox.
Gentlemen, This is the Trojan Horse we have let in to our Orthodox Church.
I used to attend Charismatic prayer groups, but I went as a laugh. I went out of curiosity. I went because it was an alternative to bars and nightclubs.. it was a great alternative to such places. I remember in one youth meeting, this charismatic leader asked EVERYONE to give a "round of applause" to the Body of Christ - because "Christ was so cool".
The thing is this: I didnt go to back my Orthodox Church and tell them "HEY! Look! Guys, i've just been around a bit, and opened my mind.. and i think we should start livening things up a bit.. let's start clapping during the mass because the Body of Christ is there!!!"
NO!
So, why are they interested in changing our Church? Why are they subduing with what's Orthodox to something that's protestant? Why? What's the gain?
[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10538.msg128070#msg128070 date=1295980422]
I have a HUGE problem with guitars.......
Every week in sunday school someone will pull out a guitar and the class will start singing some weird English song!
Even during prayer meetings, someone is playing a piano and they're singing and one time they started to clap to the beat!
This is really annoying! I've asked one of my servants about it and he was like "oh we are praising God" and then he completely ignored me!!
Are any other churches doing this? Is this wrong? Am i overreacting?
If I see another guitar I will smash it over someones head! :D
But seriously though, Guitars Suck!
Hater!
hahaa.... I love you :D..... but your guitar gotta go lol
yes, Godlovesme (and everyone else who said this), let's work on the alternative and certainly not stop going to church meetings. lets not damage our own spiritual life by staying away from church because 'i am too good for me church', no-one is that holy!
so keep asking for change, and patiently wait, appreciating all that is good, and worshiping God as best we can where we are.
Mabsoota I think going to these meetings is damaging.... I've never gained anything from those songs..... it's like hearing a sermon from a sack of potatoes!
The Russian Church is just BRILLIANT!
You know what they do in their friday meetings??
Guess what??
Go on guess....
OK.. I'll tell u
They read the Philokalia..
They sit down, have a small glass of tea,(Obviously in the Church hall) and they QUIETLY read the books of the Church fathers. That's their "Friday Meetings".
Brilliant.
And guess what - there are LOADS of non russians there.. and the reason why they are there IS because they hate the Charismatic catholics and protestants.
Father Peter
Im SERIOUSLY thinking of joining the Greek or the Armenian Orthodox Church over this.
The Russian Church is just BRILLIANT!
You know what they do in their friday meetings??
Guess what??
Go on guess....
OK.. I'll tell u
They read the Philokalia..
They sit down, have a small glass of tea,(Obviously in the Church hall) and they QUIETLY read the books of the Church fathers. That's their "Friday Meetings".
Brilliant.
And guess what - there are LOADS of non russians there.. and the reason why they are there IS because they hate the Charismatic catholics and protestants.
I don't think abandoning the church is right.... if everyone who hated these protestant influences became Armenian, then what is left of the coptic church?
Our best bet now is to annoy our priests and bishops until someone decides to do something!
Our Church servants, bishops, priests, deacons are OK with this protestant influence. Why the heck would they care if we became Russian or Greek Orthodox for??? Let them change the CoC into a charismatic movement to appease the youth. So what?
That's fine. Why not?? I'm not the owner of the Church. Its not my building personally.
I just like the Orthodox spirituality, prayer, and style.
What's wrong with that??
I have no allegiance to a particular denomination, but rather to a faith and spirituality. My faith is Orthodox and my praying style and manner is orthodox and my spirituality is Orthodox.
The ONLY thing that these Friday meetings in the CoC respect is the Orthodox Faith. It completely disrespects Orthodox Praying Style and Spirituality. COMPLETELY.
All this is done in the hope of being "creative" to bring others to the CoC.
That's absolutely fine.
I don't mind. I cannot judge them.
But if I wanted to have a Big Mac, and I go to a McDonald's restaurant to eat one, I would be upset if they started serving KFC.
Do u get my point ??
Sorry to tell you the Armenians, because of the Protestant influence on them, have abandoned the Sacrament of Confession. They have a general confessional before receiving Communion.
The Greeks have a whole list of issues. Too too long.
Stick with the Coptics. Armenians and Greeks are mostly nationalistic about their churches.
I hope you stay Coptic, because then I can continue to tease you.
We all need to keep a level head (This coming from me!) and do what is right. We must continue voicing our discontent to our clergy, with valid explanations and evidence to supports what we are saying (my book is a great reference lol). If we just yell and complain, well nobody is going to want to listen to us. Satan is distracting everyone with islam at the front door that nobody even sees this heresy is sneaking in through the back. We WILL overcome this, there is no doubt in my mind, we always win! for the last 2,000 years who has won? Orthodoxy. Sure it might get a little tough and might even seem a little hopeless, but just look at the past, we always win.
I believe it is a test allowed by God.
I didnt say Armenian in particular, but they are our sister Church.
I'm all for the Russian Orthdoox. I'm well impressed with their Friday meetings... and the Greek Orthodox Church's meetings... are just WOW.
They are mind blowing.
Quiet.. contemplatative.. patristical.
yes, the greeks have some nationalistic issues, but so do we.
ILSM, we can make fun of each other in greek habibi.. it doesn't have to be in English all the time.
I like the Armenians a lot. I am well-versed in Armenian chants and the Badarak (Liturgy). I just meant that they have their own flaws.
Looking forward to chatting later. I'm sure I will be burned at the stake in absentia. Marshmallows anyone?
When you go among the Russians, they want you to become Russian in order to become Orthodox.
I like the Armenians a lot. I am well-versed in Armenian chants and the Badarak (Liturgy). I just meant that they have their own flaws.
That's not true at all.
The most that I had to do was get a VISA to get into the Russian Church, but other than that, there was no mention of the Church being nationalistic!! STOP THIS NONSENSE!
As I said, i'm going to the greek Orthodox Church. They also do not care if I'm greek or not.
I'm tired.
I'm going home now to make myself a nice souvlaki with Tzaziki, and drink it down with some nice Frappe. (like I always do).
Efkharistoumen everyone.