[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10589.msg129047#msg129047 date=1296442750] Most of the deacons at a church (who are youth, there were girls with them as well) got caught by their priest drinking alcohol (to the point of drunkenness) and smoking weed...at a FAMILY retreat!! A lot of the younger kids who saw them were crying...it was saddening indeed...the deacons couldn't dress for three weeks...I think they should have been banned for life, or at least until their conduct improved.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10589.msg129054#msg129054 date=1296443207] [quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10589.msg129047#msg129047 date=1296442750] Most of the deacons at a church (who are youth, there were girls with them as well) got caught by their priest drinking alcohol (to the point of drunkenness) and smoking weed...at a FAMILY retreat!! A lot of the younger kids who saw them were crying...it was saddening indeed...the deacons couldn't dress for three weeks...I think they should have been banned for life, or at least until their conduct improved.
Hey mina and GODlovesme, you're right and wrong at the same time :) The 'oi' is pronounced 'ee' BUT it comes after the first 'e' like TITL spelled it above:
mEtanOIa
So it's Me-Ta-Nee-a[quote author=TITL link=topic=10589.msg129099#msg129099 date=1296491736] epchois,
I pronounce the "a" in apple/band like I do in car/mask. At least I think I do.
Lol really? Actually I forgot that you were American - in Australia they sound different. The right sound is like the 'u' in 'up' - I think that's the same in all accents ... or I hope it is.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10589.msg128995#msg128995 date=1296438999] Lesson #1: Teach how to make the Sign of the Cross (not the stomach thing or the swatting the fly technique) but actually saying the Prayer of the Signing of the Cross. Lesson #2: The way I see it, the Deacons are the Marines. The laity are the Foot soldiers The priests are lieutenants and captains The bishops are generals The Pope is the Commander-in-Chief.
Lesson #3:
After you complete this list, then you can consider yourself has having gone through the introduction phase, and even I would respect you.
1. Take those tonias in the closet, that the deacons throw on the floor, wash them, fix them with sewing, iron them and hang them. [Repeat every week]. 2. Clean that censer, every week, and revere it for the amazing symbolism that is in it. 3. Clean the cruets of the water and wine so that there are no impurities as they are presented for the sacrifice. 4. Vacuum the altar and realize that is the House of God and it should be clean. 5. Shampoo the carpets of the Church 6. Wash the crystal on the chandeliers. 7. Organize all the books at the lectern 8. Place all of the Bible books in an organized and level place, because it is the Word of God. 9. Peel, and clean the wax from all of the rugs and veils. 10. Take the stupid plastic cover off the altar and devote yourself to clean linens for the altar every 2-4 weeks. 11. Teach the kids and the adults not to touch the altar or make it a bookcase for their 1000 books during the Liturgy. 12. Polish the candlesticks every 2-4 weeks. 13. Take the priest's vestments to the cleaners and repair them. 14. Rotate the priest's vestments every week so that his appearance is always with dignity before God and God's People. 15. Teach the kids how to put their vestments on and how to take them off and fold them. 16. When you teach the kids about serving in the Sanctuary rather than saying: "serving inside" 17. When you say to the kids we are going to "vest", and not "let's get dressed". 18. When you know the name and rank of all those around you. 19. Organize the veils and vessels of the altar so that the vessels do not tarnish from non-use. 20. Paint the walls that have been destroyed by smudges and wear. 21. Clean the bathrooms of the church 22. Take out the garbage 23. Do the gardening, organize the gardening, so that the church will be a good sight for those that go by 24. Shovel the snow and ice (or sand where applicable) so that people's entry to the church may be safe. 25. Spend the night in the church with inclement weather in order to protect the church and be available for services so that the Liturgy is never cancelled. 26. Be ready to receive the bishop when he arrives. Line up the servants, etc. 27. Learn to be in contact with the bishop 28. Learn to show respect to the bishop 29. Wash the towels of the altar in a separate receptacle. I recently went into a church and the towels presented for drying the vessels and for the bishop smelled like someone's arm pit.
In terms of Prayer:
1. Have you taught the kids to pray as they work in the church. 2. Have you learned how to pray as you do the above tasks? 3. Have you taught the prayers of the Agbeya to the kids? 4. Have you sponsored essays to have the kids reflect on the aspects of the Agbeya and prayer? 5. Have you correlated the service with the life of prayer?
Dealing with the Kids:
1. Do you visit them? 2. Do you ask about them? 3. Do you set-up get togethers for them? 4. Do you celebrate their birthdays? 5. Do you learn about their baptism date? 6. When a person is being ordained, do you keep track of the name, date, rank, and ordaining bishop? 7. Do you tease them with cute words, so that they may feel your brotherhood?
In Dealing with the priest:
1. Do you discuss the service on a weekly basis? 2. Do you discuss the liturgical service beforehand, or do you enter the altar every two seconds to disrupt things and to look cool? 3. Do you discuss goals and overall approaches for the diaconal service? 4. Do you ask the priest advice for how to deal with situations before they arise? 5. Do you ask to shadow the priest and learn by being a valet? a) driving for him (at least 10,000 miles per year) b) making sure he is a cup of tea/or coffee every once in a while c) make sure that he is fed. d) get his mail for him e) take care of any organizational and annoying paperwork f) type his letters g) keep your discussions private and not for babble to the friends and community h) go with him to the missionary churches that are just opening to witness different levels of service i) taking his car for a wash (or even washing it) j) going with him to visit the sick in the hospital k) giving him the time (by driving for him) that he may have just one more person to visit. l) eating what he eats and not being picky m) speak when spoken to and offer opinion only when asked.
Dealing with the people:
1. Become a member of the Ladies' Committee, to be a physical help to their activities (e.g., moving tables, supplies, etc.) 2. A model and example 3. Print the newsletter 4. Help put together the newsletter 5. Help with fundraising activities 6. Let the priest know of the needs of the people
PRAYER:
I won't comment on this aspect, but it must be developed as your own foundry of faith. It must be strong and able to support you in the time of need.
Lesson #4:
Dealing with a priest and bishop is no different than dealing with your own father. It has to be done with deep respect and love. They are truly not the ordinary person to be speaking to about matters. They are open to ideas.
Lesson #5: Avoid: Coptic "deacons" so that they do not learn the same: selfishness, negligence, ill-discipline, microphone hogging, and total mayhem in the Liturgy. How many times does someone have to walk in and out of the altar? How many times do you have to talk and ask the priest? How many times do you have to talk to the dingbat next to you to ask how cool the next response should be? How many times do you have to turn to look at the women so you can scope out the girl you have a crush? How many times can a person look at his mobile phone, blackberry, or iPad?
Is it possible that someone can teach these young men to dress properly when coming to see the King of Kings? Is it possible that someone can teach the concept of showering before coming to church? How about washing your hands before you start touching the minor vessels of the altar?
Can someone explain to me why there is plastic covering on the altars? I will save everyone the answers, because the deacons are too lazy to keep the altar clean. They like to touch the altar with their hands. They love to throw 5-10 books on the altar because they can't follow without them.
How about leaning on the altar? Are these guys really that old that they need to use the altar table and columns as a crutch.
How about all those charcoal pot holes in the carpeting? Some people think it is cute to give a seven year old the censer to hold. Guess what: they drop it? I'm not really worried about the candles. I'm worried about the fire in the charcoal.
How about the ones that go into the altar and practice their responses as you are trying to say your prerparatory prayers? How about the ones that roll around on the ground?
Here's a really annoying one: when some slick older deacon lets his 3 or 4 year old son, who is ordained as an epsaltos, to hold the triangle and to rattle with it during the chants and in the silent times. IT IS SO CUTE. Maybe the kid will turn out just as slick as his father.
How about when the 5 year old deacon rushes through the royal doors at the priest who is standing at the altar facing the east and imploring God? If I didn't realize the kid was 5 years old, I would swear it was a terrorist trying to take down Abouna.
Lesson #6:
The purpose of the censer is to offer sacrifice.
It has many symbolisms:
1. The bottom bowl--symbolic of the earth and the womb of the Virgin Mary.
2. The burning charcoal--symbolic of the Divine Ember (Christ) Who was in her womb and did not burn it.
3. The incense--the prayers of the saints, and a symbolic instrument of purification
4. The dome--the sky above us; that the prayers ascend even beyond the skies
5. The three outer chains--The Holy Trinity--we are bound to the Triune God--the chains are continuous from earth, the sky (the universe as we know it), and to the handle dome which is Heaven.
6. 12 bells--the Apostles and their mission throughout the world. The ringing of the bells reminds us of their message--the Gospel. (most censers do not have them--although they should)
7. The Cross at the top of the dome--the Star of Bethlehem that points to the place where the Lord lay. Also the Symbol of Victory that all of creation looks to.
8. The central chain--as it ties with the Heaven (dome) and the Cross on top of the dome--as the unification between Creation and God; Salvation has been achieved; it is a symbolic fulfillment of the Pentecost Hymn (Asomen) where the verse says "He made the two into one; the Heavens and the Earth."
The reason for the charcoal to burn completely and the incense is that all sacrifices must be consumed completely. This is in regard to the command from the Old Testament that nothing should be left behind. All Sacrifices must be consumed in the same day.
On a practical basis, devoid of any spiritual symbolism, it is purely hazardous to put something burning in a pile of combustibles that have the potential for a fire to consume the church.
I often point to the censer as a symbol of the health of a parish. I have yet to enter a church and see a clean censer. It defines the lack of dedication of the deacons. It identifies their detraction from the symbolism that is outlined by the Church. It shows laziness, negligence, lack of respect, and a deleterious spirit. It shows lack of service. If we look at the outlines and precepts of the Old Testament there were points for cleaning the vessels of the altar until they sparkled. There were whole peoples dedicated to these tasks.
How disgusting would it be, if your mother cooked you food in a pan, and used the same pan over and over without washing and cleaning it? It would make the nice thing that was being presented devoid of the sense of love, because it would be bathed in foul material. If the vessels of the altar are for the Royal One, and they look disgustingly dirty (charred and tar covered) then what does it say about Him, and us who are His Servants? It may seem like a small thing, and I know I will get the Kumbaya talk about: "God does not want a clean censer, He wants a clean heart." However, one must realize that one is a symbolic indicator of the other.
The holiest place on the earth is in the Holy of Holies--the Holy Altar. I do not see the decorum there either in conduct, protocol, or in the keeping of that place. The end effect, is indicative of the underlying pathology and disregard, and maybe, just maybe we have to say the terrible words as a consequence of this appearance--'maybe we do not believe in God as much as we say'. 'Our actions point to the contrary.'
Lesson #7:
The reason it so, is because it is so. THERE IS NO DISCIPLINE. THEY DON'T READ OR STUDY THE BIBLE.
How can I prove my point, because Zoxsasi will ask me to prove it:
1. The churches (esp. the altars) look like a total mess. 2. The deacons when they come to read at the pulpit cannot pronounce most of the words or articulate them well. They have no conviction in reading the Word of God. 3. Some will leave the Rites and Sacraments to go talk on their mobiles in the back to girls and the such. 4. They come in looking like complete messes as if they came from the basketball court rather than coming to see the King of Kings. 5. They do not have a regard for the Sacraments for their own self. 6. Look at the vestment closet in each church, it looks disgusting. For those who are older, they do not do anything about it, and for those who are younger they just throw things in their. 7. God forbid you correct someone, in whatever form.
I wish I had a camera to document all of the above.
I know I will get the following statements, so for those who are going to do so, I will save you having to write them:
1. You should pray about the matter. 2. You should not be judgmental. 3. Abouna appoints specific people to take care of each matter. Not every deacon can take care of everything. 4. I do not see the things you are saying. 5. What do you expect from kids? 6. What do you expect from boys? 7. My church looks great, I do not know what you are talking about. 8. Let us sing Kumbaya together and maybe you will feel better. 9. Maybe you should get off your tail and do something about it. 10. Well, they have to meet girls somehow. We want them to marry Coptic girls. 11. We do not have rock and roll in the church. What is this rock star syndrome? 12. They will learn. 13. What is your solution, big mouth? 14. Why don't you do something about it? 15. Just tell abouna, and he will take care of it with the other 1000 things. Abouna has time for all of this, he has nothing better to do. 16. I'm deaf, so I like it when the deacons stick their microphone through mouth, throat, larynx, pharynx, and bowels to make those horrid sounds. 17. I do not read english so I cannot understand what you are saying. 18. What was the topic again? 19. I'm not a deacon so I should not read this post. 20. I'm a girl, can you introduce me to one of these deacons. 21. I do not know what fasting, reading the bible, praying, cleaning, and the such are. I am a hermit. 22. If it is not on the projector, I cannot relate to it. 23. You are just crazy, insensitive, and judgmental. 24. Have you tried talking to the person? 25. Did you pray about it?
Lesson #8: Prayer: Just do it.
Prayer: Quality not quantity.
Prayer: It is a way of life.
Prayer: It is the life of the Way.
Prayer: What I want to say.
Prayer: Say what is is in my heart.
Prayer: Pray that God have mercy on us.
Lesson #9:
Don't look like a slob. Don't talk like a slob. Don't act like a slob.
Do: Pray, Sing, be courteous, clean, offer sacrifices.
Offer your priests and clergy the highest regard and respect. Help them.
Offer God the best that you have...not the second best or third best.
There is nothing more.
Putting it simply, conduct yourself like the Master conducted Himself--in full dignity at every moment.
Lesson #10:
I'm a Psalms man.
When in doubt, read a Psalm. When you are happy, read a Psalm. When you have any emotion, read a Psalm. When you are studying, read a Psalm. When you need ideas, read a Psalm. When you need to cast out the Devil, read a Psalm. When you want to read poetry, read a Psalm. When you are looking for words to express yourself, read a Psalm. When you want to pray, read a Psalm. When you want to memorize a poem, read a Psalm. When you want to understand parts of the Liturgy, read a Psalm. When you want to talk to the Almighty, read a Psalm. When you are desperate, read a Psalm.
Lesson #11:
Thou shalt not touch the altar unless it is absolutely necessary. It (the altar table) is not meant for leaning. Thou shalt not clutter the altar with all of your junk. Thou shalt not use your mobile phone in the church. Thou shalt not discuss the hymns with your pal next to you. Thou shalt not suck the microphone down your throat. Thou shalt not use cough drops during the Liturgy, because you think your voice is so nice it needs to be supplemented. Thou shalt have respect for the deacons that are older and of a higher rank thank you. Thou shalt clean the altar, because all of the altars are not well kept at all. Thou shalt read and study the Scriptures every Day and Night. Thou shalt keep the Commandments as your guide to being a deacon. Thou shalt not review the chants during the Liturgy, prior to saying given chant. Thou shalt help the priest vest so that he may be able to do his preparatory prayers as he is vesting. Thou shalt upkeep the vestments of the priest. Thou shalt take the vestments of the priest to be dry cleaned. Thou shalt organize the people during Holy Communion receiving. Thou shalt not give your back to the Holy Altar. Thou shalt not walk in front of the altar. Thou shalt not avoid the Fasting Seasons. Thou shalt not stay out late the night before Liturgy. Thou shalt conduct yourself the same on the days of the week as you do on Sunday. Thou shalt not wear clothes with Satanic markings, rock and roll groups, rapper attire, sports attire. Remember to participate in the Praises, they help to set for the Divine Liturgy. Remember to keep your vestments clean and ironed. They represent a gift from God. Remember to come to church in clean attire. Remember to shower before you come to church. Remember to offer your tithes to the church, it is part of your service as a deacon. Remember to pray for the sake of your service, and the overall service in the church. Remember to look for the needs of the priest. The priest forget themselves, do not take care of themselves. It is nice to take care of your father. Remember not to make fun of your peers as they say the responses or make mistakes. Remember that the chants are not by any means the main focus of your service. Remember to learn how to make the Korban, because there may arise an emergency where you will have to do so. Remember to take care of the younger deacons in service. Remember to study for your schoolwork, so that you do not use your duties as a deacon as an excuse for not doing well. Remember to make time from your world duties for the Pascha. Remember to keep your service books in good shape. Remember to keep your eyes controlled so that they do not wander around the church; especially to check out the chicks (because you think you are so cool). Remember to read the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles of Timothy ( I & II) to get a feel for the service and duty of the deacon. Remember to correlate your daily Scriptural readings with the meanings of the chants to realize their origin. Remember that the chants are a prayer, you should understand what you are saying. Remember that you are in the service as a deacon always, not just during church. Remember that bad movies have a way of infiltrating the mind and blinding you from God's Service. Remember that God is doing you a favor and not the reverse. Remember that you are a role model to the entire church. Remember that you do not have the authority to question the priest, unless their is a theological flaw. Remember that the priest is in charge, and you are not. Remember that the priest answers to God, not you. Remember never ask to be elevated, let God present you with the invitation. Remember Thou art mortal. Remember that you have a duty to learn as much as you can, e.g., the Scriptures, Theology, and Spiritual Writings. Remember to let your seniors receive Holy Communion before you.
The Alpha in Coptic is NEVER pronounced like in Apple or bAnd, but ALWAYS like cAr or mAsk.
I know the rule you are talking about, but mAsk has the same "a" as Apple and bAnd haha
LOL I know TITL made me realise that Americans say them the same. In Australia we say 'Mask' and 'Car' with the same 'a'. A better example would be to use Arabic since we all speak that with the same accent:
So, in Coptic, the Alpha is always pronounced like the 'a' in Taher (as in Botros al Rasul al tAher) and NEVER as in 'Abouna'.
Yes I think 'father' that works in all English accents! And I just realised, I think EVERYONE says 'ObAmA' the same way - I've heard American reporters say it like 'father'. So it's 'a' as in fAther and obAmA.
oh....any my recently favorite: http://translate.google.com/#el|en|%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%B1 since everyone began to say: eek-no-mia instead of e-ko-nomia
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10589.msg129159#msg129159 date=1296527548] [quote author=TITL link=topic=10589.msg129114#msg129114 date=1296503539] Why would it be the long "e" sound? It should be "yes ti-metanoi-a"
you are using greco-bohairic....i hate that.....and i refuse to speak with it simply because it destroys many hazzat in our hymns.
listen to the Greek pronunciation of: metania: http://translate.google.com/#el|en|%CE%BC%CE%B5%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%B1
oh....any my recently favorite: http://translate.google.com/#el|en|%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%B1 since everyone began to say: eek-no-mia instead of e-ko-nomia
Mina, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Seraphim Chorus use such pronunciations? I know they are picky about it to the extent that it sounds weird...
Metanoia would be the same in Greco and Old Bohairic (actually, OB would probably say: MatAn-ee-a - first 'a' like America, second A like fAther). But the 'ee' would stay the same.
Google is pronouncing the words the correct way - Mar-ee-a, not Mar-ey-ya, which is an Arabic corruption of the Greek spelling. I remember someone commenting that someone who speaks Greek would crack up laughing if they attended one of our masses - and they're right, we completely kill the language.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=10589.msg129161#msg129161 date=1296528081] Google is pronouncing the words the correct way - Mar-ee-a, not Mar-ey-ya, which is an Arabic corruption of the Greek spelling. I remember someone commenting that someone who speaks Greek would crack up laughing if they attended one of our masses - and they're right, we completely kill the language.
oh i know....i know a couple of greek ppl.....but we are copts....not greek.
It's just that the whole point of adopting Greco-Bohairic in the first place was so that we would be able to pray liturgies with the Greek Orthodox Church - now we've killed Coptic AND Greek! It's bad enough that only two or three people understand what we're singing in our own Churches, but even the native speakers of the languages we're using wouldn't understand us. We need to educate our deacons better I think.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10589.msg128995#msg128995 date=1296438999] Lesson #1: Teach how to make the Sign of the Cross (not the stomach thing or the swatting the fly technique) but actually saying the Prayer of the Signing of the Cross. Lesson #2: The way I see it, the Deacons are the Marines. The laity are the Foot soldiers The priests are lieutenants and captains The bishops are generals The Pope is the Commander-in-Chief.
Lesson #3:
After you complete this list, then you can consider yourself has having gone through the introduction phase, and even I would respect you.
1. Take those tonias in the closet, that the deacons throw on the floor, wash them, fix them with sewing, iron them and hang them. [Repeat every week]. 2. Clean that censer, every week, and revere it for the amazing symbolism that is in it. 3. Clean the cruets of the water and wine so that there are no impurities as they are presented for the sacrifice. 4. Vacuum the altar and realize that is the House of God and it should be clean. 5. Shampoo the carpets of the Church 6. Wash the crystal on the chandeliers. 7. Organize all the books at the lectern 8. Place all of the Bible books in an organized and level place, because it is the Word of God. 9. Peel, and clean the wax from all of the rugs and veils. 10. Take the stupid plastic cover off the altar and devote yourself to clean linens for the altar every 2-4 weeks. 11. Teach the kids and the adults not to touch the altar or make it a bookcase for their 1000 books during the Liturgy. 12. Polish the candlesticks every 2-4 weeks. 13. Take the priest's vestments to the cleaners and repair them. 14. Rotate the priest's vestments every week so that his appearance is always with dignity before God and God's People. 15. Teach the kids how to put their vestments on and how to take them off and fold them. 16. When you teach the kids about serving in the Sanctuary rather than saying: "serving inside" 17. When you say to the kids we are going to "vest", and not "let's get dressed". 18. When you know the name and rank of all those around you. 19. Organize the veils and vessels of the altar so that the vessels do not tarnish from non-use. 20. Paint the walls that have been destroyed by smudges and wear. 21. Clean the bathrooms of the church 22. Take out the garbage 23. Do the gardening, organize the gardening, so that the church will be a good sight for those that go by 24. Shovel the snow and ice (or sand where applicable) so that people's entry to the church may be safe. 25. Spend the night in the church with inclement weather in order to protect the church and be available for services so that the Liturgy is never cancelled. 26. Be ready to receive the bishop when he arrives. Line up the servants, etc. 27. Learn to be in contact with the bishop 28. Learn to show respect to the bishop 29. Wash the towels of the altar in a separate receptacle. I recently went into a church and the towels presented for drying the vessels and for the bishop smelled like someone's arm pit.
In terms of Prayer:
1. Have you taught the kids to pray as they work in the church. 2. Have you learned how to pray as you do the above tasks? 3. Have you taught the prayers of the Agbeya to the kids? 4. Have you sponsored essays to have the kids reflect on the aspects of the Agbeya and prayer? 5. Have you correlated the service with the life of prayer?
Dealing with the Kids:
1. Do you visit them? 2. Do you ask about them? 3. Do you set-up get togethers for them? 4. Do you celebrate their birthdays? 5. Do you learn about their baptism date? 6. When a person is being ordained, do you keep track of the name, date, rank, and ordaining bishop? 7. Do you tease them with cute words, so that they may feel your brotherhood?
In Dealing with the priest:
1. Do you discuss the service on a weekly basis? 2. Do you discuss the liturgical service beforehand, or do you enter the altar every two seconds to disrupt things and to look cool? 3. Do you discuss goals and overall approaches for the diaconal service? 4. Do you ask the priest advice for how to deal with situations before they arise? 5. Do you ask to shadow the priest and learn by being a valet? a) driving for him (at least 10,000 miles per year) b) making sure he is a cup of tea/or coffee every once in a while c) make sure that he is fed. d) get his mail for him e) take care of any organizational and annoying paperwork f) type his letters g) keep your discussions private and not for babble to the friends and community h) go with him to the missionary churches that are just opening to witness different levels of service i) taking his car for a wash (or even washing it) j) going with him to visit the sick in the hospital k) giving him the time (by driving for him) that he may have just one more person to visit. l) eating what he eats and not being picky m) speak when spoken to and offer opinion only when asked.
Dealing with the people:
1. Become a member of the Ladies' Committee, to be a physical help to their activities (e.g., moving tables, supplies, etc.) 2. A model and example 3. Print the newsletter 4. Help put together the newsletter 5. Help with fundraising activities 6. Let the priest know of the needs of the people
PRAYER:
I won't comment on this aspect, but it must be developed as your own foundry of faith. It must be strong and able to support you in the time of need.
Lesson #4:
Dealing with a priest and bishop is no different than dealing with your own father. It has to be done with deep respect and love. They are truly not the ordinary person to be speaking to about matters. They are open to ideas.
Lesson #5: Avoid: Coptic "deacons" so that they do not learn the same: selfishness, negligence, ill-discipline, microphone hogging, and total mayhem in the Liturgy. How many times does someone have to walk in and out of the altar? How many times do you have to talk and ask the priest? How many times do you have to talk to the dingbat next to you to ask how cool the next response should be? How many times do you have to turn to look at the women so you can scope out the girl you have a crush? How many times can a person look at his mobile phone, blackberry, or iPad?
Is it possible that someone can teach these young men to dress properly when coming to see the King of Kings? Is it possible that someone can teach the concept of showering before coming to church? How about washing your hands before you start touching the minor vessels of the altar?
Can someone explain to me why there is plastic covering on the altars? I will save everyone the answers, because the deacons are too lazy to keep the altar clean. They like to touch the altar with their hands. They love to throw 5-10 books on the altar because they can't follow without them.
How about leaning on the altar? Are these guys really that old that they need to use the altar table and columns as a crutch.
How about all those charcoal pot holes in the carpeting? Some people think it is cute to give a seven year old the censer to hold. Guess what: they drop it? I'm not really worried about the candles. I'm worried about the fire in the charcoal.
How about the ones that go into the altar and practice their responses as you are trying to say your prerparatory prayers? How about the ones that roll around on the ground?
Here's a really annoying one: when some slick older deacon lets his 3 or 4 year old son, who is ordained as an epsaltos, to hold the triangle and to rattle with it during the chants and in the silent times. IT IS SO CUTE. Maybe the kid will turn out just as slick as his father.
How about when the 5 year old deacon rushes through the royal doors at the priest who is standing at the altar facing the east and imploring God? If I didn't realize the kid was 5 years old, I would swear it was a terrorist trying to take down Abouna.
Lesson #6:
The purpose of the censer is to offer sacrifice.
It has many symbolisms:
1. The bottom bowl--symbolic of the earth and the womb of the Virgin Mary.
2. The burning charcoal--symbolic of the Divine Ember (Christ) Who was in her womb and did not burn it.
3. The incense--the prayers of the saints, and a symbolic instrument of purification
4. The dome--the sky above us; that the prayers ascend even beyond the skies
5. The three outer chains--The Holy Trinity--we are bound to the Triune God--the chains are continuous from earth, the sky (the universe as we know it), and to the handle dome which is Heaven.
6. 12 bells--the Apostles and their mission throughout the world. The ringing of the bells reminds us of their message--the Gospel. (most censers do not have them--although they should)
7. The Cross at the top of the dome--the Star of Bethlehem that points to the place where the Lord lay. Also the Symbol of Victory that all of creation looks to.
8. The central chain--as it ties with the Heaven (dome) and the Cross on top of the dome--as the unification between Creation and God; Salvation has been achieved; it is a symbolic fulfillment of the Pentecost Hymn (Asomen) where the verse says "He made the two into one; the Heavens and the Earth."
The reason for the charcoal to burn completely and the incense is that all sacrifices must be consumed completely. This is in regard to the command from the Old Testament that nothing should be left behind. All Sacrifices must be consumed in the same day.
On a practical basis, devoid of any spiritual symbolism, it is purely hazardous to put something burning in a pile of combustibles that have the potential for a fire to consume the church.
I often point to the censer as a symbol of the health of a parish. I have yet to enter a church and see a clean censer. It defines the lack of dedication of the deacons. It identifies their detraction from the symbolism that is outlined by the Church. It shows laziness, negligence, lack of respect, and a deleterious spirit. It shows lack of service. If we look at the outlines and precepts of the Old Testament there were points for cleaning the vessels of the altar until they sparkled. There were whole peoples dedicated to these tasks.
How disgusting would it be, if your mother cooked you food in a pan, and used the same pan over and over without washing and cleaning it? It would make the nice thing that was being presented devoid of the sense of love, because it would be bathed in foul material. If the vessels of the altar are for the Royal One, and they look disgustingly dirty (charred and tar covered) then what does it say about Him, and us who are His Servants? It may seem like a small thing, and I know I will get the Kumbaya talk about: "God does not want a clean censer, He wants a clean heart." However, one must realize that one is a symbolic indicator of the other.
The holiest place on the earth is in the Holy of Holies--the Holy Altar. I do not see the decorum there either in conduct, protocol, or in the keeping of that place. The end effect, is indicative of the underlying pathology and disregard, and maybe, just maybe we have to say the terrible words as a consequence of this appearance--'maybe we do not believe in God as much as we say'. 'Our actions point to the contrary.'
Lesson #7:
The reason it so, is because it is so. THERE IS NO DISCIPLINE. THEY DON'T READ OR STUDY THE BIBLE.
How can I prove my point, because Zoxsasi will ask me to prove it:
1. The churches (esp. the altars) look like a total mess. 2. The deacons when they come to read at the pulpit cannot pronounce most of the words or articulate them well. They have no conviction in reading the Word of God. 3. Some will leave the Rites and Sacraments to go talk on their mobiles in the back to girls and the such. 4. They come in looking like complete messes as if they came from the basketball court rather than coming to see the King of Kings. 5. They do not have a regard for the Sacraments for their own self. 6. Look at the vestment closet in each church, it looks disgusting. For those who are older, they do not do anything about it, and for those who are younger they just throw things in their. 7. God forbid you correct someone, in whatever form.
I wish I had a camera to document all of the above.
I know I will get the following statements, so for those who are going to do so, I will save you having to write them:
1. You should pray about the matter. 2. You should not be judgmental. 3. Abouna appoints specific people to take care of each matter. Not every deacon can take care of everything. 4. I do not see the things you are saying. 5. What do you expect from kids? 6. What do you expect from boys? 7. My church looks great, I do not know what you are talking about. 8. Let us sing Kumbaya together and maybe you will feel better. 9. Maybe you should get off your tail and do something about it. 10. Well, they have to meet girls somehow. We want them to marry Coptic girls. 11. We do not have rock and roll in the church. What is this rock star syndrome? 12. They will learn. 13. What is your solution, big mouth? 14. Why don't you do something about it? 15. Just tell abouna, and he will take care of it with the other 1000 things. Abouna has time for all of this, he has nothing better to do. 16. I'm deaf, so I like it when the deacons stick their microphone through mouth, throat, larynx, pharynx, and bowels to make those horrid sounds. 17. I do not read english so I cannot understand what you are saying. 18. What was the topic again? 19. I'm not a deacon so I should not read this post. 20. I'm a girl, can you introduce me to one of these deacons. 21. I do not know what fasting, reading the bible, praying, cleaning, and the such are. I am a hermit. 22. If it is not on the projector, I cannot relate to it. 23. You are just crazy, insensitive, and judgmental. 24. Have you tried talking to the person? 25. Did you pray about it?
Lesson #8: Prayer: Just do it.
Prayer: Quality not quantity.
Prayer: It is a way of life.
Prayer: It is the life of the Way.
Prayer: What I want to say.
Prayer: Say what is is in my heart.
Prayer: Pray that God have mercy on us.
Lesson #9:
Don't look like a slob. Don't talk like a slob. Don't act like a slob.
Do: Pray, Sing, be courteous, clean, offer sacrifices.
Offer your priests and clergy the highest regard and respect. Help them.
Offer God the best that you have...not the second best or third best.
There is nothing more.
Putting it simply, conduct yourself like the Master conducted Himself--in full dignity at every moment.
Lesson #10:
I'm a Psalms man.
When in doubt, read a Psalm. When you are happy, read a Psalm. When you have any emotion, read a Psalm. When you are studying, read a Psalm. When you need ideas, read a Psalm. When you need to cast out the Devil, read a Psalm. When you want to read poetry, read a Psalm. When you are looking for words to express yourself, read a Psalm. When you want to pray, read a Psalm. When you want to memorize a poem, read a Psalm. When you want to understand parts of the Liturgy, read a Psalm. When you want to talk to the Almighty, read a Psalm. When you are desperate, read a Psalm.
Lesson #11:
Thou shalt not touch the altar unless it is absolutely necessary. It (the altar table) is not meant for leaning. Thou shalt not clutter the altar with all of your junk. Thou shalt not use your mobile phone in the church. Thou shalt not discuss the hymns with your pal next to you. Thou shalt not suck the microphone down your throat. Thou shalt not use cough drops during the Liturgy, because you think your voice is so nice it needs to be supplemented. Thou shalt have respect for the deacons that are older and of a higher rank thank you. Thou shalt clean the altar, because all of the altars are not well kept at all. Thou shalt read and study the Scriptures every Day and Night. Thou shalt keep the Commandments as your guide to being a deacon. Thou shalt not review the chants during the Liturgy, prior to saying given chant. Thou shalt help the priest vest so that he may be able to do his preparatory prayers as he is vesting. Thou shalt upkeep the vestments of the priest. Thou shalt take the vestments of the priest to be dry cleaned. Thou shalt organize the people during Holy Communion receiving. Thou shalt not give your back to the Holy Altar. Thou shalt not walk in front of the altar. Thou shalt not avoid the Fasting Seasons. Thou shalt not stay out late the night before Liturgy. Thou shalt conduct yourself the same on the days of the week as you do on Sunday. Thou shalt not wear clothes with Satanic markings, rock and roll groups, rapper attire, sports attire. Remember to participate in the Praises, they help to set for the Divine Liturgy. Remember to keep your vestments clean and ironed. They represent a gift from God. Remember to come to church in clean attire. Remember to shower before you come to church. Remember to offer your tithes to the church, it is part of your service as a deacon. Remember to pray for the sake of your service, and the overall service in the church. Remember to look for the needs of the priest. The priest forget themselves, do not take care of themselves. It is nice to take care of your father. Remember not to make fun of your peers as they say the responses or make mistakes. Remember that the chants are not by any means the main focus of your service. Remember to learn how to make the Korban, because there may arise an emergency where you will have to do so. Remember to take care of the younger deacons in service. Remember to study for your schoolwork, so that you do not use your duties as a deacon as an excuse for not doing well. Remember to make time from your world duties for the Pascha. Remember to keep your service books in good shape. Remember to keep your eyes controlled so that they do not wander around the church; especially to check out the chicks (because you think you are so cool). Remember to read the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles of Timothy ( I & II) to get a feel for the service and duty of the deacon. Remember to correlate your daily Scriptural readings with the meanings of the chants to realize their origin. Remember that the chants are a prayer, you should understand what you are saying. Remember that you are in the service as a deacon always, not just during church. Remember that bad movies have a way of infiltrating the mind and blinding you from God's Service. Remember that God is doing you a favor and not the reverse. Remember that you are a role model to the entire church. Remember that you do not have the authority to question the priest, unless their is a theological flaw. Remember that the priest is in charge, and you are not. Remember that the priest answers to God, not you. Remember never ask to be elevated, let God present you with the invitation. Remember Thou art mortal. Remember that you have a duty to learn as much as you can, e.g., the Scriptures, Theology, and Spiritual Writings. Remember to let your seniors receive Holy Communion before you.
I know our church is against this, but I want to give you the biggest bosa ever!
Indeed we pronounce the Greek very wrong in our church...taking Greek at my school enlightened me of that. However, within Greek, there are still distinctions in sound to be made, whether you are pronouncing modern Greek vs. classical Greek (there are marked differences in the pronunciations)...my Greek Orthodox eye doctor who speaks modern Greek fluently and is familiar with classical Greek told me this, not my authority btw lol.
Lol that's true, but what we're using in Church makes sense to NO-ONE, not even us! It's not classical or Koine or even modern - we have invented it ourselves. We have created a corruption of Coptic in order to make the Greek in our liturgies understandable to Modern Greek speakers, but we've even started pronouncing Modern Greek wrong. My only point is, since we went to all the trouble of bringing in Greco-Bohairic and butchering our native and ancient language in the process, we might as well make that sacrifice mean something and use Modern Greek properly.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=10589.msg129195#msg129195 date=1296539942] [quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10589.msg129194#msg129194 date=1296539648] Lol why don't we just revert back to our native tongue?
Thank you! That's what I would love to do ... I'm already bugging my Abouna to let us run some Tasbeha's in OB every now and then :D
LOL that's good...our hymns teacher started teaching us some of the Old Bohairic pronunciations and we use some of them when we do tasbeha.
Comments
I agree.
Most of the deacons at a church (who are youth, there were girls with them as well) got caught by their priest drinking alcohol (to the point of drunkenness) and smoking weed...at a FAMILY retreat!! A lot of the younger kids who saw them were crying...it was saddening indeed...the deacons couldn't dress for three weeks...I think they should have been banned for life, or at least until their conduct improved.
THREEE WEEKS....BASS?!
abouna medala'hom awee keda leh.
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10589.msg129047#msg129047 date=1296442750]
Most of the deacons at a church (who are youth, there were girls with them as well) got caught by their priest drinking alcohol (to the point of drunkenness) and smoking weed...at a FAMILY retreat!! A lot of the younger kids who saw them were crying...it was saddening indeed...the deacons couldn't dress for three weeks...I think they should have been banned for life, or at least until their conduct improved.
THREEE WEEKS....BASS?!
abouna medala'hom awee keda leh.
No kidding...too much dala3 if you ask me...
I pronounce the "a" in apple/band like I do in car/mask. At least I think I do.
Also, to add to epchois' list: it's "yes ti-matania" not "si-matania" in the conclusion.
I think I'm the only existing human that pronounces it the way it's spelled.
epchois,
I pronounce the "a" in apple/band like I do in car/mask. At least I think I do.
Also, to add to epchois' list: it's "yes ti-matania" not "si-matania" in the conclusion.
haha...and it's supposed to be "yes ti-meetania"
maybe you should talk about the rank of each deacon and the specific things each rank is suppossed to do.
God Bless this service
Why would it be the long "e" sound? It should be "yes ti-metanoi-a"
If I am not mistaken, metanoia is a Greek word meaning repentance...the oi combination in pronounced as "ee"...correct me if I'm wrong.
mEtanOIa
So it's Me-Ta-Nee-a[quote author=TITL link=topic=10589.msg129099#msg129099 date=1296491736]
epchois,
I pronounce the "a" in apple/band like I do in car/mask. At least I think I do.
Lol really? Actually I forgot that you were American - in Australia they sound different. The right sound is like the 'u' in 'up' - I think that's the same in all accents ... or I hope it is.
The Alpha in Coptic is NEVER pronounced like in Apple or bAnd, but ALWAYS like cAr or mAsk.
I know the rule you are talking about, but mAsk has the same "a" as Apple and bAnd haha
Lesson #1: Teach how to make the Sign of the Cross (not the stomach thing or the swatting the fly technique) but actually saying the Prayer of the Signing of the Cross.
Lesson #2:
The way I see it, the Deacons are the Marines.
The laity are the Foot soldiers
The priests are lieutenants and captains
The bishops are generals
The Pope is the Commander-in-Chief.
Lesson #3:
After you complete this list, then you can consider yourself has having gone through the introduction phase, and even I would respect you.
1. Take those tonias in the closet, that the deacons throw on the floor, wash them, fix them with sewing, iron them and hang them.
[Repeat every week].
2. Clean that censer, every week, and revere it for the amazing symbolism that is in it.
3. Clean the cruets of the water and wine so that there are no impurities as they are presented for the sacrifice.
4. Vacuum the altar and realize that is the House of God and it should be clean.
5. Shampoo the carpets of the Church
6. Wash the crystal on the chandeliers.
7. Organize all the books at the lectern
8. Place all of the Bible books in an organized and level place, because it is the Word of God.
9. Peel, and clean the wax from all of the rugs and veils.
10. Take the stupid plastic cover off the altar and devote yourself to clean linens for the altar every 2-4 weeks.
11. Teach the kids and the adults not to touch the altar or make it a bookcase for their 1000 books during the Liturgy.
12. Polish the candlesticks every 2-4 weeks.
13. Take the priest's vestments to the cleaners and repair them.
14. Rotate the priest's vestments every week so that his appearance is always with dignity before God and God's People.
15. Teach the kids how to put their vestments on and how to take them off and fold them.
16. When you teach the kids about serving in the Sanctuary rather than saying: "serving inside"
17. When you say to the kids we are going to "vest", and not "let's get dressed".
18. When you know the name and rank of all those around you.
19. Organize the veils and vessels of the altar so that the vessels do not tarnish from non-use.
20. Paint the walls that have been destroyed by smudges and wear.
21. Clean the bathrooms of the church
22. Take out the garbage
23. Do the gardening, organize the gardening, so that the church will be a good sight for those that go by
24. Shovel the snow and ice (or sand where applicable) so that people's entry to the church may be safe.
25. Spend the night in the church with inclement weather in order to protect the church and be available for services so that the Liturgy is never cancelled.
26. Be ready to receive the bishop when he arrives. Line up the servants, etc.
27. Learn to be in contact with the bishop
28. Learn to show respect to the bishop
29. Wash the towels of the altar in a separate receptacle. I recently went into a church and the towels presented for drying the vessels and for the bishop smelled like someone's arm pit.
In terms of Prayer:
1. Have you taught the kids to pray as they work in the church.
2. Have you learned how to pray as you do the above tasks?
3. Have you taught the prayers of the Agbeya to the kids?
4. Have you sponsored essays to have the kids reflect on the aspects of the Agbeya and prayer?
5. Have you correlated the service with the life of prayer?
Dealing with the Kids:
1. Do you visit them?
2. Do you ask about them?
3. Do you set-up get togethers for them?
4. Do you celebrate their birthdays?
5. Do you learn about their baptism date?
6. When a person is being ordained, do you keep track of the name, date, rank, and ordaining bishop?
7. Do you tease them with cute words, so that they may feel your brotherhood?
In Dealing with the priest:
1. Do you discuss the service on a weekly basis?
2. Do you discuss the liturgical service beforehand, or do you enter the altar every two seconds to disrupt things and to look cool?
3. Do you discuss goals and overall approaches for the diaconal service?
4. Do you ask the priest advice for how to deal with situations before they arise?
5. Do you ask to shadow the priest and learn by being a valet?
a) driving for him (at least 10,000 miles per year)
b) making sure he is a cup of tea/or coffee every once in a while
c) make sure that he is fed.
d) get his mail for him
e) take care of any organizational and annoying paperwork
f) type his letters
g) keep your discussions private and not for babble to the friends and community
h) go with him to the missionary churches that are just opening to witness different levels of service
i) taking his car for a wash (or even washing it)
j) going with him to visit the sick in the hospital
k) giving him the time (by driving for him) that he may have just one more person to visit.
l) eating what he eats and not being picky
m) speak when spoken to and offer opinion only when asked.
Dealing with the people:
1. Become a member of the Ladies' Committee, to be a physical help to their activities (e.g., moving tables, supplies, etc.)
2. A model and example
3. Print the newsletter
4. Help put together the newsletter
5. Help with fundraising activities
6. Let the priest know of the needs of the people
PRAYER:
I won't comment on this aspect, but it must be developed as your own foundry of faith. It must be strong and able to support you in the time of need.
Lesson #4:
Dealing with a priest and bishop is no different than dealing with your own father. It has to be done with deep respect and love. They are truly not the ordinary person to be speaking to about matters. They are open to ideas.
Lesson #5:
Avoid:
Coptic "deacons" so that they do not learn the same: selfishness, negligence, ill-discipline, microphone hogging, and total mayhem in the Liturgy.
How many times does someone have to walk in and out of the altar?
How many times do you have to talk and ask the priest?
How many times do you have to talk to the dingbat next to you to ask how cool the next response should be?
How many times do you have to turn to look at the women so you can scope out the girl you have a crush?
How many times can a person look at his mobile phone, blackberry, or iPad?
Is it possible that someone can teach these young men to dress properly when coming to see the King of Kings?
Is it possible that someone can teach the concept of showering before coming to church?
How about washing your hands before you start touching the minor vessels of the altar?
Can someone explain to me why there is plastic covering on the altars? I will save everyone the answers, because the deacons are too lazy to keep the altar clean. They like to touch the altar with their hands. They love to throw 5-10 books on the altar because they can't follow without them.
How about leaning on the altar? Are these guys really that old that they need to use the altar table and columns as a crutch.
How about all those charcoal pot holes in the carpeting? Some people think it is cute to give a seven year old the censer to hold. Guess what: they drop it? I'm not really worried about the candles. I'm worried about the fire in the charcoal.
How about the ones that go into the altar and practice their responses as you are trying to say your prerparatory prayers? How about the ones that roll around on the ground?
Here's a really annoying one: when some slick older deacon lets his 3 or 4 year old son, who is ordained as an epsaltos, to hold the triangle and to rattle with it during the chants and in the silent times. IT IS SO CUTE. Maybe the kid will turn out just as slick as his father.
How about when the 5 year old deacon rushes through the royal doors at the priest who is standing at the altar facing the east and imploring God? If I didn't realize the kid was 5 years old, I would swear it was a terrorist trying to take down Abouna.
Lesson #6:
The purpose of the censer is to offer sacrifice.
It has many symbolisms:
1. The bottom bowl--symbolic of the earth and the womb of the Virgin Mary.
2. The burning charcoal--symbolic of the Divine Ember (Christ) Who was in her womb and did not burn it.
3. The incense--the prayers of the saints, and a symbolic instrument of purification
4. The dome--the sky above us; that the prayers ascend even beyond the skies
5. The three outer chains--The Holy Trinity--we are bound to the Triune God--the chains are continuous from earth, the sky (the universe as we know it), and to the handle dome which is Heaven.
6. 12 bells--the Apostles and their mission throughout the world. The ringing of the bells reminds us of their message--the Gospel.
(most censers do not have them--although they should)
7. The Cross at the top of the dome--the Star of Bethlehem that points to the place where the Lord lay. Also the Symbol of Victory that all of creation looks to.
8. The central chain--as it ties with the Heaven (dome) and the Cross on top of the dome--as the unification between Creation and God; Salvation has been achieved; it is a symbolic fulfillment of the Pentecost Hymn (Asomen) where the verse says "He made the two into one; the Heavens and the Earth."
The reason for the charcoal to burn completely and the incense is that all sacrifices must be consumed completely. This is in regard to the command from the Old Testament that nothing should be left behind. All Sacrifices must be consumed in the same day.
On a practical basis, devoid of any spiritual symbolism, it is purely hazardous to put something burning in a pile of combustibles that have the potential for a fire to consume the church.
I often point to the censer as a symbol of the health of a parish. I have yet to enter a church and see a clean censer. It defines the lack of dedication of the deacons. It identifies their detraction from the symbolism that is outlined by the Church. It shows laziness, negligence, lack of respect, and a deleterious spirit. It shows lack of service. If we look at the outlines and precepts of the Old Testament there were points for cleaning the vessels of the altar until they sparkled. There were whole peoples dedicated to these tasks.
How disgusting would it be, if your mother cooked you food in a pan, and used the same pan over and over without washing and cleaning it? It would make the nice thing that was being presented devoid of the sense of love, because it would be bathed in foul material. If the vessels of the altar are for the Royal One, and they look disgustingly dirty (charred and tar covered) then what does it say about Him, and us who are His Servants? It may seem like a small thing, and I know I will get the Kumbaya talk about: "God does not want a clean censer, He wants a clean heart." However, one must realize that one is a symbolic indicator of the other.
The holiest place on the earth is in the Holy of Holies--the Holy Altar. I do not see the decorum there either in conduct, protocol, or in the keeping of that place. The end effect, is indicative of the underlying pathology and disregard, and maybe, just maybe we have to say the terrible words as a consequence of this appearance--'maybe we do not believe in God as much as we say'. 'Our actions point to the contrary.'
Lesson #7:
The reason it so, is because it is so. THERE IS NO DISCIPLINE. THEY DON'T READ OR STUDY THE BIBLE.
How can I prove my point, because Zoxsasi will ask me to prove it:
1. The churches (esp. the altars) look like a total mess.
2. The deacons when they come to read at the pulpit cannot pronounce most of the words or articulate them well. They have
no conviction in reading the Word of God.
3. Some will leave the Rites and Sacraments to go talk on their mobiles in the back to girls and the such.
4. They come in looking like complete messes as if they came from the basketball court rather than coming to see the King of Kings.
5. They do not have a regard for the Sacraments for their own self.
6. Look at the vestment closet in each church, it looks disgusting. For those who are older, they do not do anything about it, and for those who are younger they just throw things in their.
7. God forbid you correct someone, in whatever form.
I wish I had a camera to document all of the above.
I know I will get the following statements, so for those who are going to do so, I will save you having to write them:
1. You should pray about the matter.
2. You should not be judgmental.
3. Abouna appoints specific people to take care of each matter. Not every deacon can take care of everything.
4. I do not see the things you are saying.
5. What do you expect from kids?
6. What do you expect from boys?
7. My church looks great, I do not know what you are talking about.
8. Let us sing Kumbaya together and maybe you will feel better.
9. Maybe you should get off your tail and do something about it.
10. Well, they have to meet girls somehow. We want them to marry Coptic girls.
11. We do not have rock and roll in the church. What is this rock star syndrome?
12. They will learn.
13. What is your solution, big mouth?
14. Why don't you do something about it?
15. Just tell abouna, and he will take care of it with the other 1000 things. Abouna has time for all of this, he has nothing better to do.
16. I'm deaf, so I like it when the deacons stick their microphone through mouth, throat, larynx, pharynx, and bowels to make those
horrid sounds.
17. I do not read english so I cannot understand what you are saying.
18. What was the topic again?
19. I'm not a deacon so I should not read this post.
20. I'm a girl, can you introduce me to one of these deacons.
21. I do not know what fasting, reading the bible, praying, cleaning, and the such are. I am a hermit.
22. If it is not on the projector, I cannot relate to it.
23. You are just crazy, insensitive, and judgmental.
24. Have you tried talking to the person?
25. Did you pray about it?
Lesson #8:
Prayer: Just do it.
Prayer: Quality not quantity.
Prayer: It is a way of life.
Prayer: It is the life of the Way.
Prayer: What I want to say.
Prayer: Say what is is in my heart.
Prayer: Pray that God have mercy on us.
Lesson #9:
Don't look like a slob.
Don't talk like a slob.
Don't act like a slob.
Do: Pray, Sing, be courteous, clean, offer sacrifices.
Offer your priests and clergy the highest regard and respect. Help them.
Offer God the best that you have...not the second best or third best.
There is nothing more.
Putting it simply, conduct yourself like the Master conducted Himself--in full dignity at every moment.
Lesson #10:
I'm a Psalms man.
When in doubt, read a Psalm.
When you are happy, read a Psalm.
When you have any emotion, read a Psalm.
When you are studying, read a Psalm.
When you need ideas, read a Psalm.
When you need to cast out the Devil, read a Psalm.
When you want to read poetry, read a Psalm.
When you are looking for words to express yourself, read a Psalm.
When you want to pray, read a Psalm.
When you want to memorize a poem, read a Psalm.
When you want to understand parts of the Liturgy, read a Psalm.
When you want to talk to the Almighty, read a Psalm.
When you are desperate, read a Psalm.
Lesson #11:
Thou shalt not touch the altar unless it is absolutely necessary. It (the altar table) is not meant for leaning.
Thou shalt not clutter the altar with all of your junk.
Thou shalt not use your mobile phone in the church.
Thou shalt not discuss the hymns with your pal next to you.
Thou shalt not suck the microphone down your throat.
Thou shalt not use cough drops during the Liturgy, because you think your voice is so nice it needs to be supplemented.
Thou shalt have respect for the deacons that are older and of a higher rank thank you.
Thou shalt clean the altar, because all of the altars are not well kept at all.
Thou shalt read and study the Scriptures every Day and Night.
Thou shalt keep the Commandments as your guide to being a deacon.
Thou shalt not review the chants during the Liturgy, prior to saying given chant.
Thou shalt help the priest vest so that he may be able to do his preparatory prayers as he is vesting.
Thou shalt upkeep the vestments of the priest.
Thou shalt take the vestments of the priest to be dry cleaned.
Thou shalt organize the people during Holy Communion receiving.
Thou shalt not give your back to the Holy Altar.
Thou shalt not walk in front of the altar.
Thou shalt not avoid the Fasting Seasons.
Thou shalt not stay out late the night before Liturgy.
Thou shalt conduct yourself the same on the days of the week as you do on Sunday.
Thou shalt not wear clothes with Satanic markings, rock and roll groups, rapper attire, sports attire.
Remember to participate in the Praises, they help to set for the Divine Liturgy.
Remember to keep your vestments clean and ironed. They represent a gift from God.
Remember to come to church in clean attire.
Remember to shower before you come to church.
Remember to offer your tithes to the church, it is part of your service as a deacon.
Remember to pray for the sake of your service, and the overall service in the church.
Remember to look for the needs of the priest. The priest forget themselves, do not take care of themselves.
It is nice to take care of your father.
Remember not to make fun of your peers as they say the responses or make mistakes.
Remember that the chants are not by any means the main focus of your service.
Remember to learn how to make the Korban, because there may arise an emergency where you will have to do so.
Remember to take care of the younger deacons in service.
Remember to study for your schoolwork, so that you do not use your duties as a deacon as an excuse for not doing well.
Remember to make time from your world duties for the Pascha.
Remember to keep your service books in good shape.
Remember to keep your eyes controlled so that they do not wander around the church; especially to check out the chicks (because you think you are so cool).
Remember to read the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles of Timothy ( I & II) to get a feel for the service and duty of the deacon.
Remember to correlate your daily Scriptural readings with the meanings of the chants to realize their origin.
Remember that the chants are a prayer, you should understand what you are saying.
Remember that you are in the service as a deacon always, not just during church.
Remember that bad movies have a way of infiltrating the mind and blinding you from God's Service.
Remember that God is doing you a favor and not the reverse.
Remember that you are a role model to the entire church.
Remember that you do not have the authority to question the priest, unless their is a theological flaw.
Remember that the priest is in charge, and you are not.
Remember that the priest answers to God, not you.
Remember never ask to be elevated, let God present you with the invitation.
Remember Thou art mortal.
Remember that you have a duty to learn as much as you can, e.g., the Scriptures, Theology, and Spiritual Writings.
Remember to let your seniors receive Holy Communion before you.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=10589.msg129028#msg129028 date=1296441362]
The Alpha in Coptic is NEVER pronounced like in Apple or bAnd, but ALWAYS like cAr or mAsk.
I know the rule you are talking about, but mAsk has the same "a" as Apple and bAnd haha
LOL I know TITL made me realise that Americans say them the same. In Australia we say 'Mask' and 'Car' with the same 'a'. A better example would be to use Arabic since we all speak that with the same accent:
So, in Coptic, the Alpha is always pronounced like the 'a' in Taher (as in Botros al Rasul al tAher) and NEVER as in 'Abouna'.
Just another comparison lol.
Why would it be the long "e" sound? It should be "yes ti-metanoi-a"
you are using greco-bohairic....i hate that.....and i refuse to speak with it simply because it destroys many hazzat in our hymns.
listen to the Greek pronunciation of:
metania: http://translate.google.com/#el|en|%CE%BC%CE%B5%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%B1
Maria: http://translate.google.com/#el|en|%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1
oh....any my recently favorite:
http://translate.google.com/#el|en|%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%B1
since everyone began to say: eek-no-mia instead of e-ko-nomia
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10589.msg129114#msg129114 date=1296503539]
Why would it be the long "e" sound? It should be "yes ti-metanoi-a"
you are using greco-bohairic....i hate that.....and i refuse to speak with it simply because it destroys many hazzat in our hymns.
listen to the Greek pronunciation of:
metania: http://translate.google.com/#el|en|%CE%BC%CE%B5%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%B1
Maria: http://translate.google.com/#el|en|%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1
oh....any my recently favorite:
http://translate.google.com/#el|en|%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%B1
since everyone began to say: eek-no-mia instead of e-ko-nomia
Mina, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Seraphim Chorus use such pronunciations? I know they are picky about it to the extent that it sounds weird...
Google is pronouncing the words the correct way - Mar-ee-a, not Mar-ey-ya, which is an Arabic corruption of the Greek spelling. I remember someone commenting that someone who speaks Greek would crack up laughing if they attended one of our masses - and they're right, we completely kill the language.
Google is pronouncing the words the correct way - Mar-ee-a, not Mar-ey-ya, which is an Arabic corruption of the Greek spelling. I remember someone commenting that someone who speaks Greek would crack up laughing if they attended one of our masses - and they're right, we completely kill the language.
oh i know....i know a couple of greek ppl.....but we are copts....not greek.
Lesson #1: Teach how to make the Sign of the Cross (not the stomach thing or the swatting the fly technique) but actually saying the Prayer of the Signing of the Cross.
Lesson #2:
The way I see it, the Deacons are the Marines.
The laity are the Foot soldiers
The priests are lieutenants and captains
The bishops are generals
The Pope is the Commander-in-Chief.
Lesson #3:
After you complete this list, then you can consider yourself has having gone through the introduction phase, and even I would respect you.
1. Take those tonias in the closet, that the deacons throw on the floor, wash them, fix them with sewing, iron them and hang them.
[Repeat every week].
2. Clean that censer, every week, and revere it for the amazing symbolism that is in it.
3. Clean the cruets of the water and wine so that there are no impurities as they are presented for the sacrifice.
4. Vacuum the altar and realize that is the House of God and it should be clean.
5. Shampoo the carpets of the Church
6. Wash the crystal on the chandeliers.
7. Organize all the books at the lectern
8. Place all of the Bible books in an organized and level place, because it is the Word of God.
9. Peel, and clean the wax from all of the rugs and veils.
10. Take the stupid plastic cover off the altar and devote yourself to clean linens for the altar every 2-4 weeks.
11. Teach the kids and the adults not to touch the altar or make it a bookcase for their 1000 books during the Liturgy.
12. Polish the candlesticks every 2-4 weeks.
13. Take the priest's vestments to the cleaners and repair them.
14. Rotate the priest's vestments every week so that his appearance is always with dignity before God and God's People.
15. Teach the kids how to put their vestments on and how to take them off and fold them.
16. When you teach the kids about serving in the Sanctuary rather than saying: "serving inside"
17. When you say to the kids we are going to "vest", and not "let's get dressed".
18. When you know the name and rank of all those around you.
19. Organize the veils and vessels of the altar so that the vessels do not tarnish from non-use.
20. Paint the walls that have been destroyed by smudges and wear.
21. Clean the bathrooms of the church
22. Take out the garbage
23. Do the gardening, organize the gardening, so that the church will be a good sight for those that go by
24. Shovel the snow and ice (or sand where applicable) so that people's entry to the church may be safe.
25. Spend the night in the church with inclement weather in order to protect the church and be available for services so that the Liturgy is never cancelled.
26. Be ready to receive the bishop when he arrives. Line up the servants, etc.
27. Learn to be in contact with the bishop
28. Learn to show respect to the bishop
29. Wash the towels of the altar in a separate receptacle. I recently went into a church and the towels presented for drying the vessels and for the bishop smelled like someone's arm pit.
In terms of Prayer:
1. Have you taught the kids to pray as they work in the church.
2. Have you learned how to pray as you do the above tasks?
3. Have you taught the prayers of the Agbeya to the kids?
4. Have you sponsored essays to have the kids reflect on the aspects of the Agbeya and prayer?
5. Have you correlated the service with the life of prayer?
Dealing with the Kids:
1. Do you visit them?
2. Do you ask about them?
3. Do you set-up get togethers for them?
4. Do you celebrate their birthdays?
5. Do you learn about their baptism date?
6. When a person is being ordained, do you keep track of the name, date, rank, and ordaining bishop?
7. Do you tease them with cute words, so that they may feel your brotherhood?
In Dealing with the priest:
1. Do you discuss the service on a weekly basis?
2. Do you discuss the liturgical service beforehand, or do you enter the altar every two seconds to disrupt things and to look cool?
3. Do you discuss goals and overall approaches for the diaconal service?
4. Do you ask the priest advice for how to deal with situations before they arise?
5. Do you ask to shadow the priest and learn by being a valet?
a) driving for him (at least 10,000 miles per year)
b) making sure he is a cup of tea/or coffee every once in a while
c) make sure that he is fed.
d) get his mail for him
e) take care of any organizational and annoying paperwork
f) type his letters
g) keep your discussions private and not for babble to the friends and community
h) go with him to the missionary churches that are just opening to witness different levels of service
i) taking his car for a wash (or even washing it)
j) going with him to visit the sick in the hospital
k) giving him the time (by driving for him) that he may have just one more person to visit.
l) eating what he eats and not being picky
m) speak when spoken to and offer opinion only when asked.
Dealing with the people:
1. Become a member of the Ladies' Committee, to be a physical help to their activities (e.g., moving tables, supplies, etc.)
2. A model and example
3. Print the newsletter
4. Help put together the newsletter
5. Help with fundraising activities
6. Let the priest know of the needs of the people
PRAYER:
I won't comment on this aspect, but it must be developed as your own foundry of faith. It must be strong and able to support you in the time of need.
Lesson #4:
Dealing with a priest and bishop is no different than dealing with your own father. It has to be done with deep respect and love. They are truly not the ordinary person to be speaking to about matters. They are open to ideas.
Lesson #5:
Avoid:
Coptic "deacons" so that they do not learn the same: selfishness, negligence, ill-discipline, microphone hogging, and total mayhem in the Liturgy.
How many times does someone have to walk in and out of the altar?
How many times do you have to talk and ask the priest?
How many times do you have to talk to the dingbat next to you to ask how cool the next response should be?
How many times do you have to turn to look at the women so you can scope out the girl you have a crush?
How many times can a person look at his mobile phone, blackberry, or iPad?
Is it possible that someone can teach these young men to dress properly when coming to see the King of Kings?
Is it possible that someone can teach the concept of showering before coming to church?
How about washing your hands before you start touching the minor vessels of the altar?
Can someone explain to me why there is plastic covering on the altars? I will save everyone the answers, because the deacons are too lazy to keep the altar clean. They like to touch the altar with their hands. They love to throw 5-10 books on the altar because they can't follow without them.
How about leaning on the altar? Are these guys really that old that they need to use the altar table and columns as a crutch.
How about all those charcoal pot holes in the carpeting? Some people think it is cute to give a seven year old the censer to hold. Guess what: they drop it? I'm not really worried about the candles. I'm worried about the fire in the charcoal.
How about the ones that go into the altar and practice their responses as you are trying to say your prerparatory prayers? How about the ones that roll around on the ground?
Here's a really annoying one: when some slick older deacon lets his 3 or 4 year old son, who is ordained as an epsaltos, to hold the triangle and to rattle with it during the chants and in the silent times. IT IS SO CUTE. Maybe the kid will turn out just as slick as his father.
How about when the 5 year old deacon rushes through the royal doors at the priest who is standing at the altar facing the east and imploring God? If I didn't realize the kid was 5 years old, I would swear it was a terrorist trying to take down Abouna.
Lesson #6:
The purpose of the censer is to offer sacrifice.
It has many symbolisms:
1. The bottom bowl--symbolic of the earth and the womb of the Virgin Mary.
2. The burning charcoal--symbolic of the Divine Ember (Christ) Who was in her womb and did not burn it.
3. The incense--the prayers of the saints, and a symbolic instrument of purification
4. The dome--the sky above us; that the prayers ascend even beyond the skies
5. The three outer chains--The Holy Trinity--we are bound to the Triune God--the chains are continuous from earth, the sky (the universe as we know it), and to the handle dome which is Heaven.
6. 12 bells--the Apostles and their mission throughout the world. The ringing of the bells reminds us of their message--the Gospel.
(most censers do not have them--although they should)
7. The Cross at the top of the dome--the Star of Bethlehem that points to the place where the Lord lay. Also the Symbol of Victory that all of creation looks to.
8. The central chain--as it ties with the Heaven (dome) and the Cross on top of the dome--as the unification between Creation and God; Salvation has been achieved; it is a symbolic fulfillment of the Pentecost Hymn (Asomen) where the verse says "He made the two into one; the Heavens and the Earth."
The reason for the charcoal to burn completely and the incense is that all sacrifices must be consumed completely. This is in regard to the command from the Old Testament that nothing should be left behind. All Sacrifices must be consumed in the same day.
On a practical basis, devoid of any spiritual symbolism, it is purely hazardous to put something burning in a pile of combustibles that have the potential for a fire to consume the church.
I often point to the censer as a symbol of the health of a parish. I have yet to enter a church and see a clean censer. It defines the lack of dedication of the deacons. It identifies their detraction from the symbolism that is outlined by the Church. It shows laziness, negligence, lack of respect, and a deleterious spirit. It shows lack of service. If we look at the outlines and precepts of the Old Testament there were points for cleaning the vessels of the altar until they sparkled. There were whole peoples dedicated to these tasks.
How disgusting would it be, if your mother cooked you food in a pan, and used the same pan over and over without washing and cleaning it? It would make the nice thing that was being presented devoid of the sense of love, because it would be bathed in foul material. If the vessels of the altar are for the Royal One, and they look disgustingly dirty (charred and tar covered) then what does it say about Him, and us who are His Servants? It may seem like a small thing, and I know I will get the Kumbaya talk about: "God does not want a clean censer, He wants a clean heart." However, one must realize that one is a symbolic indicator of the other.
The holiest place on the earth is in the Holy of Holies--the Holy Altar. I do not see the decorum there either in conduct, protocol, or in the keeping of that place. The end effect, is indicative of the underlying pathology and disregard, and maybe, just maybe we have to say the terrible words as a consequence of this appearance--'maybe we do not believe in God as much as we say'. 'Our actions point to the contrary.'
Lesson #7:
The reason it so, is because it is so. THERE IS NO DISCIPLINE. THEY DON'T READ OR STUDY THE BIBLE.
How can I prove my point, because Zoxsasi will ask me to prove it:
1. The churches (esp. the altars) look like a total mess.
2. The deacons when they come to read at the pulpit cannot pronounce most of the words or articulate them well. They have
no conviction in reading the Word of God.
3. Some will leave the Rites and Sacraments to go talk on their mobiles in the back to girls and the such.
4. They come in looking like complete messes as if they came from the basketball court rather than coming to see the King of Kings.
5. They do not have a regard for the Sacraments for their own self.
6. Look at the vestment closet in each church, it looks disgusting. For those who are older, they do not do anything about it, and for those who are younger they just throw things in their.
7. God forbid you correct someone, in whatever form.
I wish I had a camera to document all of the above.
I know I will get the following statements, so for those who are going to do so, I will save you having to write them:
1. You should pray about the matter.
2. You should not be judgmental.
3. Abouna appoints specific people to take care of each matter. Not every deacon can take care of everything.
4. I do not see the things you are saying.
5. What do you expect from kids?
6. What do you expect from boys?
7. My church looks great, I do not know what you are talking about.
8. Let us sing Kumbaya together and maybe you will feel better.
9. Maybe you should get off your tail and do something about it.
10. Well, they have to meet girls somehow. We want them to marry Coptic girls.
11. We do not have rock and roll in the church. What is this rock star syndrome?
12. They will learn.
13. What is your solution, big mouth?
14. Why don't you do something about it?
15. Just tell abouna, and he will take care of it with the other 1000 things. Abouna has time for all of this, he has nothing better to do.
16. I'm deaf, so I like it when the deacons stick their microphone through mouth, throat, larynx, pharynx, and bowels to make those
horrid sounds.
17. I do not read english so I cannot understand what you are saying.
18. What was the topic again?
19. I'm not a deacon so I should not read this post.
20. I'm a girl, can you introduce me to one of these deacons.
21. I do not know what fasting, reading the bible, praying, cleaning, and the such are. I am a hermit.
22. If it is not on the projector, I cannot relate to it.
23. You are just crazy, insensitive, and judgmental.
24. Have you tried talking to the person?
25. Did you pray about it?
Lesson #8:
Prayer: Just do it.
Prayer: Quality not quantity.
Prayer: It is a way of life.
Prayer: It is the life of the Way.
Prayer: What I want to say.
Prayer: Say what is is in my heart.
Prayer: Pray that God have mercy on us.
Lesson #9:
Don't look like a slob.
Don't talk like a slob.
Don't act like a slob.
Do: Pray, Sing, be courteous, clean, offer sacrifices.
Offer your priests and clergy the highest regard and respect. Help them.
Offer God the best that you have...not the second best or third best.
There is nothing more.
Putting it simply, conduct yourself like the Master conducted Himself--in full dignity at every moment.
Lesson #10:
I'm a Psalms man.
When in doubt, read a Psalm.
When you are happy, read a Psalm.
When you have any emotion, read a Psalm.
When you are studying, read a Psalm.
When you need ideas, read a Psalm.
When you need to cast out the Devil, read a Psalm.
When you want to read poetry, read a Psalm.
When you are looking for words to express yourself, read a Psalm.
When you want to pray, read a Psalm.
When you want to memorize a poem, read a Psalm.
When you want to understand parts of the Liturgy, read a Psalm.
When you want to talk to the Almighty, read a Psalm.
When you are desperate, read a Psalm.
Lesson #11:
Thou shalt not touch the altar unless it is absolutely necessary. It (the altar table) is not meant for leaning.
Thou shalt not clutter the altar with all of your junk.
Thou shalt not use your mobile phone in the church.
Thou shalt not discuss the hymns with your pal next to you.
Thou shalt not suck the microphone down your throat.
Thou shalt not use cough drops during the Liturgy, because you think your voice is so nice it needs to be supplemented.
Thou shalt have respect for the deacons that are older and of a higher rank thank you.
Thou shalt clean the altar, because all of the altars are not well kept at all.
Thou shalt read and study the Scriptures every Day and Night.
Thou shalt keep the Commandments as your guide to being a deacon.
Thou shalt not review the chants during the Liturgy, prior to saying given chant.
Thou shalt help the priest vest so that he may be able to do his preparatory prayers as he is vesting.
Thou shalt upkeep the vestments of the priest.
Thou shalt take the vestments of the priest to be dry cleaned.
Thou shalt organize the people during Holy Communion receiving.
Thou shalt not give your back to the Holy Altar.
Thou shalt not walk in front of the altar.
Thou shalt not avoid the Fasting Seasons.
Thou shalt not stay out late the night before Liturgy.
Thou shalt conduct yourself the same on the days of the week as you do on Sunday.
Thou shalt not wear clothes with Satanic markings, rock and roll groups, rapper attire, sports attire.
Remember to participate in the Praises, they help to set for the Divine Liturgy.
Remember to keep your vestments clean and ironed. They represent a gift from God.
Remember to come to church in clean attire.
Remember to shower before you come to church.
Remember to offer your tithes to the church, it is part of your service as a deacon.
Remember to pray for the sake of your service, and the overall service in the church.
Remember to look for the needs of the priest. The priest forget themselves, do not take care of themselves.
It is nice to take care of your father.
Remember not to make fun of your peers as they say the responses or make mistakes.
Remember that the chants are not by any means the main focus of your service.
Remember to learn how to make the Korban, because there may arise an emergency where you will have to do so.
Remember to take care of the younger deacons in service.
Remember to study for your schoolwork, so that you do not use your duties as a deacon as an excuse for not doing well.
Remember to make time from your world duties for the Pascha.
Remember to keep your service books in good shape.
Remember to keep your eyes controlled so that they do not wander around the church; especially to check out the chicks (because you think you are so cool).
Remember to read the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles of Timothy ( I & II) to get a feel for the service and duty of the deacon.
Remember to correlate your daily Scriptural readings with the meanings of the chants to realize their origin.
Remember that the chants are a prayer, you should understand what you are saying.
Remember that you are in the service as a deacon always, not just during church.
Remember that bad movies have a way of infiltrating the mind and blinding you from God's Service.
Remember that God is doing you a favor and not the reverse.
Remember that you are a role model to the entire church.
Remember that you do not have the authority to question the priest, unless their is a theological flaw.
Remember that the priest is in charge, and you are not.
Remember that the priest answers to God, not you.
Remember never ask to be elevated, let God present you with the invitation.
Remember Thou art mortal.
Remember that you have a duty to learn as much as you can, e.g., the Scriptures, Theology, and Spiritual Writings.
Remember to let your seniors receive Holy Communion before you.
I know our church is against this, but I want to give you the biggest bosa ever!
Love,
Chris
Indeed we pronounce the Greek very wrong in our church...taking Greek at my school enlightened me of that. However, within Greek, there are still distinctions in sound to be made, whether you are pronouncing modern Greek vs. classical Greek (there are marked differences in the pronunciations)...my Greek Orthodox eye doctor who speaks modern Greek fluently and is familiar with classical Greek told me this, not my authority btw lol.
Lol why don't we just revert back to our native tongue?
Thank you! That's what I would love to do ... I'm already bugging my Abouna to let us run some Tasbeha's in OB every now and then :D
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10589.msg129194#msg129194 date=1296539648]
Lol why don't we just revert back to our native tongue?
Thank you! That's what I would love to do ... I'm already bugging my Abouna to let us run some Tasbeha's in OB every now and then :D
LOL that's good...our hymns teacher started teaching us some of the Old Bohairic pronunciations and we use some of them when we do tasbeha.