Who are we to say that their teachings are corrupt? Let me ask this question; Are Protestants and Catholics going to heaven? (Please don't tell me that it's not our business to judge because that's what this whole thread has been doing.) If I am asked by ANY person about my believe (even if they are not Christians), I would say my opinion which is mostly Orthodox but at the same time, i'll acknowledge that they have their own point of view and God will judge each one depending on his or her understanding of His word.
Sorry, we are Orthodox Christians and we have been taught the truth.
We judge other teachings by the measure of the truth of Orthodoxy. If you do not believe that Orthodoxy is the truth then you seriously need to have a chat with your priest.
Our opinions do not count for very much at all. Either we believe what the Orthodox Church teaches and we are Orthodox or we do not believe what the Orthodox Church teaches and we are in error.
Let me put your question another way. Who are you to deny the teachings of all the Fathers of the Church for 2000 years? Why is your opinion of error more authoritative than theirs?
Let me ask you also...
i. Is it a corruption of the Truth to deny the sacraments?
ii. Is it a corruption of the Truth to deny the priesthood?
iii. Is it a corruption of the Truth to deny the intercession of the Saints?
iv. Is it a corruption of the Truth to teach that the Virgin Mary was just any woman?
v. Is it a corruption of the Truth to teach that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son?
vi. Is it a corruption of the Truth to teach that salvation is a matter of only believing that Jesus died for us?
vii..... etc etc
These are all Protestant teachings. Which ones of these do you think are not essential to our salvation?
A clarification: While I write from my own personal experiences in both the Protestant and Catholic churches, it is not I who is condemning any teaching. It is the Apostles, the Disciples, the Fathers, and the Patriarchs of the Church that has preserved the Christian faith who show the modern teachings and understandings of the non-Orthodox churches to be corrupt in light of the works of the men who first walked with Jesus, first preached His death and resurrection, and left in the care of the next generation a clear and incorrupt faith to be followed once and for all time without alteration. We now in 2011 are but the newest generation in a long line that is entrusted with the preservation of the faith as it has been handed to us. This is precisely why it is so important not to relent in the face of seductive Protestant heresies and/or Roman Catholic unorthodoxy. While the Holy Spirit does indeed guide and guard the Church as surely as in past eras, at an individual level it is up to each of us to grow in our commitment to Orthodoxy so as to not go astray as others have. Orthodoxy is a choice we make, as surely as some make the choice to follow Catholicism or Protestantism instead. If the youth (or for that matter the elders) lose this sense of continuing in the Apostolic faith, then we're in deep, deep trouble as Orthodox people (or, in my case, non-Orthodox people trying to become Orthodox). We have to choose Orthodoxy, which by necessity involves rejecting everything that is not Orthodoxy or in any way may harm our commitment to it.
Let me ask you this... HOW IS ANY OF THIS HELPING ANYONE? Let me ask you this... WHAT WOULD JESUS DO? Let me ask you this... WHERE IS YOUR FAITH IN GOD? Let me ask you this... DO YOU BELIEVE GOD IS CAPABLE OF PROTECTING HIS WORD? Let me ask you this... WHY, FATHER PETER AND OTHERS ARE YOU OK WITH HATEFUL, JUDGMENTAL, AND CONDEMNING COMMENTS AGAINST OTHER DENOMINATIONS?
Finally let me ask you... Are all of you soooooo sinless that you can start pointing out others' weaknesses?
LET THIS GO! We know our doctrine We know what we believe in
You think youre helping the church, but in reality you have turned orthodoxy into a CULT... AN ORGANIZATION... Much like a football team...
FOCUS ON YOURSELVES AND YOUR SALVATION FIRST, THEN YOU CAN FOCUS ON OTHERS.
And I'm sorry I am not being accurate but another poster said that all churches want to unite but to the extent of "their" own churches ways? I can honestly say I don't think this is ALL entirely true. This is what were taught but definetly not what I have experienced. First of all if this statement is true why doesn't the Coptic Orthodox Church stand up and not be like this?
I am Coptic. I married a man who's christian but not coptic. We go to his church. They do not label themselves protestant, they are not protestant. But what they believe yes is to unite the church but not by their terms but by the terms of CHRIST and the BIBLE. The bible is pretty clear. No twists no turns about it and Revelation is going to happen, ask the Revelation retreat with St. Marks last November, so why aren't we preparing ourselves.
Yes preparation is to stay close to God but how are we doing that. One thing that was interesting that I heard from my mother-in-law is she got up and said to the church, "you guys are getting too comfortable each other. everyone knows everyone here. why are we not acting as it says in ACTS. why are we not bringing to God what His only begotten Son died for. Why are we not spreading truth and light?"
and COPTIC BOY 777- one thing i learned from st. marks church is JOY comes in the following order JESUS OTHERS and then YOURSELF. Yes you please God, when you please Jesus and have a good relationship with Him when you can talk to Him and feel Him in your life, this will be worrying about your salvation but RECOGNIZE the whole bible is about bringing the world to Christ. It is our duty as Christians to spread the Good News.
Nothing should be a cult or an organization and by no means a football team. Our objective is to forward our relationship in Christ and to bring people to know His love and salvation and Word.
Copts have written books about protestant vs. orthodox and how protestants are wrong. Do you know how many VARIOUS denominations exist? Maybe some people need to point out whats wrong and right but why cant we tell people whats right based on the bible. I think this separation by denominations is hurting us. WE are the BODY OF CHRIST. How can the hand move without knowing what the other hand is doing?
[quote author=coptic boy777 link=topic=10598.msg130123#msg130123 date=1297202798] THIS HAS BECOME A SELF CENTERED CULT.
Let me ask you this... HOW IS ANY OF THIS HELPING ANYONE? Let me ask you this... WHAT WOULD JESUS DO? Let me ask you this... WHERE IS YOUR FAITH IN GOD? Let me ask you this... DO YOU BELIEVE GOD IS CAPABLE OF PROTECTING HIS WORD? Let me ask you this... WHY, FATHER PETER AND OTHERS ARE YOU OK WITH HATEFUL, JUDGMENTAL, AND CONDEMNING COMMENTS AGAINST OTHER DENOMINATIONS?
Finally let me ask you... Are all of you soooooo sinless that you can start pointing out others' weaknesses?
LET THIS GO! We know our doctrine We know what we believe in
You think youre helping the church, but in reality you have turned orthodoxy into a CULT... AN ORGANIZATION... Much like a football team...
FOCUS ON YOURSELVES AND YOUR SALVATION FIRST, THEN YOU CAN FOCUS ON OTHERS.
Wow, someone is fired up.
I haven't seen any "hateful" comments against other denominations.
And a heresy is what it is: a heresy. It's the duty of the clergy and for every Orthodox Christian's benefit to be aware of the heresies that some are allowing to infiltrate the Church. Especially when people like you avoid answering direct questions and try to spread ignorance regarding these heresies. It's because of the ridiculous stand that people like you take, that innocent people who simply don't know better are deceived by heresies.
Refusing to acknowledge the danger they pose precipitates their spread.
[quote author=Rubina maana link=topic=10598.msg130125#msg130125 date=1297203088] Copts have written books about protestant vs. orthodox and how protestants are wrong. Do you know how many VARIOUS denominations exist? Maybe some people need to point out whats wrong and right but why cant we tell people whats right based on the bible. I think this separation by denominations is hurting us. WE are the BODY OF CHRIST. How can the hand move without knowing what the other hand is doing?
I don't understand your point. So you're saying, "Ignore the heresies, it's all ok, shattering the truth of the Church's teachings is not a problem at all"?
The great St. Paul once related: 'When I was a boy....I thought and acted like a boy...When I became a man...I did the things of a man'.
You my boy, are a boy, hence: Copticboy777. Emotion does not make for a valid point to your argument, but it does make you a "boy". If you open your eyes to the evil of the Protestant Thinking, you will realize, as a man, that it is incompatible with the Son of the Living God.
You owe Fr. Peter the regard of being a Father, a scholar, and a convert who knows inherently the evil that lurks in the simple talk of the Protestant thinking.
I'm sorry if we seem that we are judging anybody. We are not judging any person. I pray that I haven't judged anyone. I promise that you will not find a single Protestant that is more sinful than me. If I were to judge them I'd be a hypocrite.
However I'm not judging them. I'm judging the ideology. For example (forgive me if this is a poor example), I'm not supposed to judge an alcoholic, however if I love him I should point out to him how sinful alcoholism is. I should also make clear to those around me that even though there are many alcoholics this isn't right. That is exactly what Fr. Peter and others are trying to do in this thread.
St. Athanasius didn't say "I know what I believe, and how would condemning Arianism help anyone?". St. Anthony who went out into the towns and spoke against Arianism certainly wasn't judgmental. Certainly he believed that Christ could protect his word, but he wasn't going to see people standing on train tracks and say God would save them.
They certainly didn't say, "well we all believe in the Bible, lets all reunite and put aside our differences. Who cares anyway whether Christ is God or not." Furthermore we see this response by many of the Church Fathers. In fact the majority of the Church Fathers had to fight against heresies and some even had to stop heretical songs from entering the Church.
Were all of our Church Fathers judgmental. No! They cared about the Church and they refused that the Faith be diluted. This is the faith we have today. The faith that survived almost 2000 years. Now it is in danger because differences in Theology and faith aren't taken that seriously anymore. The Church Fathers such as St. Gregory the Theologian fought against the Apollinarian heresy. This heresy stated: "that Jesus could not have had a human mind; rather, that Jesus Christ had a human body and lower soul (the seat of the emotions) but a divine mind." Nowadays people would say why can't we just all be one. However the Church Fathers went around explaining the danger of this.
This is one of the points of the thread. To point out the dangers of Protestantism (we're not judging Protestants, but Protestantism). Certainly it is necessary and very very important to have a relationship with God. In fact if there is no relationship with God, then knowing the correct faith and theology hardly matters. However, I pray that this is not the case. If we want a perfect relationship with God we must know him and know about him. That is the reason we trust the Church Fathers. They had strong relationships with God and so when they spoke of God, they spoke of a reality, not an obscure philosophy.
Certainly if it was just me in the world, I wouldn't need to even think of other churches. Unfortunately (fortunately ;)) that is not the case and I need to take care of my brothers also.
Again we are judging the ideology not the people. One of the best sayings of St. Augustine (there are some problems in his writings, but I think this is fine. If not I hope someone more knowledgeable than me can correct this): "Judge the sin not the sinner." We are judging the ideology right now. We know that our belief is that of the Early Church and we can't let it be diluted or let our brothers fall into heretical ideology.
Copticboy, you must stop equating the person with the belief. When we stand against protestantism, we are not condemning the people. Therefore, I am posting a letter that I have written to address this very issue. Please read and understand the difference between the individual and the belief.
Is it acceptable to consider protestants Christian? This is something that I cannot answer with any amount of certainty. I do not know the hearts of anyone and therefore cannot pass judgment on my fellow human beings. What I can say with absolute certainty is that protestantism is not Christian. The individual being separate from the belief is subject to be judged only by God, the belief the individual adheres to, however, is subject to all for judgment. This may seem confusing so bear with me in my attempt to explain my position. As a former protestant I have the experience to understand and know the belief system and that I was truly seeking Christ and others are only seeking momentary bliss and self directed worship, not of the true God but a God they want to believe in. So it is possible that a person who is not Orthodox but is actively seeking Christ, be Christian. Again I am not a judge and have no place pointing out who is and who is not, and this is why I condemn the belief system adhered to by protestants and not the actual individuals associated with the belief. Why is it that some may consider protestantism to be Christian? I have been told that the Christology of protestantism is the exact same as the Orthodox belief, therefore protestantism is Christian. I think this tends to confuse our youth and those with little knowledge to Orthodoxy. Essentially we are to believe that the same result can be achieved through protestantism as Orthodoxy, both of which are polar opposites. Orthodoxy embracing suffering and rejecting the worldly and protestantism embracing politics, the worldly, often times material pleasure as well as the physical, and the list goes on. Since protestantism is much easier and apparently it is acceptable to many Orthodox to have faith only, why do we struggle the Orthodox spiritual life? If protestantism is Christian and we can achieve the same result as Orthodoxy, what we are doing is pointless and void of meaning. Protestantism cannot be considered Christian without making Orthodoxy relative and insignificant. “You believe there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:19,20) If we are basing our acceptance of protestantism based on their belief in God, then logically we must assume that the demons are Christians as well. St. James makes this plainly obvious in the verse above. He recognizes that it is a good thing to believe in God, but where exactly does faith alone get you? He states that “..even the demons believe, and tremble!” So the demons believe in Christ, and must understand Christology because they “tremble” according to St. James. What exactly is the etymology of the word “protestant”? Protestant comes from the word protest which is defined by the New Oxford American Dictionary as: a statement or action expressing disapproval of or objection to something : the Hungarian team lodged an official protest | two senior scientists resigned in protest. • an organized public demonstration expressing strong objection to a policy or course of action adopted by those in authority : [as adj. ] a protest march. 2 Law a written declaration, typically by a notary public, that a bill has been presented and payment or acceptance refused.
Protestantism is to protest, but protest against what? In this case against religious authority, mainly the Roman Catholic Church or anything similar to it. Protestantism is to rebel against religious authority, the authority passed on to us by the apostles. How is it that we can accept a belief completely opposed to Orthodox Christianity in every way. Protestantism rejects everything that, according to Orthodox tradition and doctrine, makes us Christian. That is a contradiction of our own self and what Orthodoxy is, we accept protestantism as Christian, while protestantism actively rejects what is deemed as a necessity for salvation. By accepting protestantism we are creating confusion amongst our people and we cannot buy into this liberal ideology that “we all believe in God, who we share no common opinion.” Accepting this tells our people that protestantism is acceptable, their beliefs, their doctrines, and even their worship. How is this acceptable, but if protestantism is Christian then there is nothing wrong with leaving the church for the path of least resistance. The mind of our youth works like this, they are not mature and tend to find the easiest way to do things, as opposed to the right way of doing things. This is something that cannot be reconciled, why stay in the Orthodox church if indeed protestantism is one in the same, just much easier? Anyone who regurgitates this phrase that protestantism is Christian is contradicting themselves in the same sentence. “And in one holy, universal, apostolic church..” (The Creed) If indeed you believe that protestantism is Christian, part of the same Christian church, then you must omit this phrase from the Creed and never say it. Protestantism is not one but around 40,000 very different denominations, which also contradicts Ephesians 4:5 “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.” You must believe that there are many Lords, many faiths, and many baptisms. Simply because there are so many denominations that are distinctly different, their views on our Lord differ, their views on baptism differ, and of course they are distinctly different faiths. So this belief, that protestantism is Christian also contradicts the creed that we have said for centuries, and the Holy Scriptures. Let us look back in history and see just how protestants viewed our own Coptic Orthodox Church. Here are some correspondence from the Church Missionary Society about our church.
i. 1752, Moravian Brethren. "..in all their conversation to endeavour to direct attention to the essence of Christianity ... and teach them how, by means of Jesus' merits, they might obtain rest for their souls, true holiness of life, and evangelical liberty, which leave the conscience unfettered by human traditions".
ii. 1850, Church Mission Society. "The missionaries seem to follow almost too strictly the plan on which the mission was begun, to seek the friendship of the clergy, especially the higher clergy of the Eastern Churches, with a view of influencing them gently, in the hope that by slow degrees they would become convinced of their errors and themselves reform their respective Churches. But the system has failed... Individual conversions [of Copts] must be the aim, as the only means of prosecuting reformation". iii. 1850, Church Mission Society. "Through the Church Mussuin Society missionaries throughout the Nile Valley, hundreds of persons had their knowledge of the way of salvation corrected, their faith directed away from their own works, to the death and suffering and obedience of the Son of God as the reason and ground of salvation from sin and its consequences".
iv. 1852. "Rev Mr. Leider has done good among the Copts, and the young men whom he has instructed refuse on conscientious grounds to enter the priesthood of this corrupt Church.... The American Missionary Association has resolved to establish a Mission among the Copts".
v. 1896. "[The Copts] must have had some glimpse of the light that illumines the soul and leads up to the throne of God. To help such a people [the Copts] to loosen themselves from the chains of superstition, and to come out of the dungeon of darkness into which their surroundings had imprisoned them, and lead them forth into the light and liberty of the Christian faith, is surely a duty and a Christian privilege". (Provided by Fr. Peter Farrington) “For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been given to him by My Father.” From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.” (John 6:64-66) Some argue that taking this stance, against protestantism being Christian, will only push protestants away from Orthodoxy. I beg to differ. I do not believe it possible to turn someone away from Christ, since anyone that comes to Christ, must have been given to him by God, how can we stop that? What we can prevent is our own from being deceived and confused by protestantism. The idea that we can prevent someone from coming to Christ, is absurdity. As the verse above shows, God gives this, who are we to take it away? The fact is we cannot, but we should not further delude those who adhere to protestantism by sending them the message that the true church sees them as equals. How can two opposites be equal? The individual may be sincere and honestly seeking Christ, but the protestant belief can never be Christian just as a lie can never become the truth.
[quote author=coptic boy777 link=topic=10598.msg130063#msg130063 date=1297185660] Can we please stop criticizing the protestant church... take the plank out of your eyes first. Lets focus on ourselves and not on the protestant church. We should let God defend our orthodox church. It is the church of the faithful after all and of the the martyrs.
LETS FOCUS ON LOVING OUR CHURCH NOT HATING OTHER CHURCHES! LETS ACTUALLY BE CHRISTINA PLEASSSSSSE!
DUDE! I'm behind you on this! Thank God, now I know other people see it too. The first post on this thread is about how certain protestants had exalted themselves so high that they started looking down and completely belittling everyone else, and we are criticizing them for it. Ironically, however, throughout this thread we have become just like them. "These are some hate comments that certain protestants wrote about the Orthodox. Now let us do our best to do the same to them." I agree that of course we need to keep the sound faith and doctrine, but this has become too muddled up in personal attacks on Protestants. Let's keep this about theology and not the hate that is being illustrated. Clearly, we are being judgmental when we do this, whether we claim to do it or not.
"Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand...
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another"
servant33, if you want people to pray for your weakness then you must accept it first yourself, otherwise it is just a formal ending to an email.
It is a weakness to pretend to love others so much that you will not identify their sickness when they are ill. And the teachings of Protestantism do produce a spiritual sickness.
I would imagine that I have been a Protestant longer than you have been alive. I believe that I, and others here, have a very much greater knowledge of the teachings of Protestantism and the dangers they pose to the Orthodox Church than you have. It is a weakness to elevate personal opinions over the experience of others.
The Fathers of the Church have taught us very clearly indeed that we must not allow the Church to be corrupted by false doctrines. Were they also illustrating hate?
No-one has said anything about the persons of Protestants in general. Do you want me to quote what has been said about them..
I always say that we must respect the person and their right to believe in whatever wrong thing they want to, but that doesn't mean that we should respect the content of whatever their wrong belief is. We don't have to respect Protestantism as a belief system.
Do not confuse the belief with the individual. Some of the individual may indeed be actively seeking Christ..
I don't see any hating here. But a criticism of what is taught by Protestantism. That is entirely proper and Christian.
Many of us used to be Protestants, Catholics, etc. and are talking about what we personally experienced and were taught. That's not hate.
It has nothing to do with looking at other churches or personalities within them and calling them "non-Christian". It's about their doctrines that are false and threatening to corrupt the faith of those who don't know any better because they haven't experienced Protestantism like we have.
This has nothing to do with Protestants at all, and is everything to do with the false teachings of Protestantism.
We are not judging any person. I pray that I haven't judged anyone. I promise that you will not find a single Protestant that is more sinful than me. If I were to judge them I'd be a hypocrite.
This is one of the points of the thread. To point out the dangers of Protestantism (we're not judging Protestants, but Protestantism).
What I can say with absolute certainty is that protestantism is not Christian. The individual being separate from the belief is subject to be judged only by God, the belief the individual adheres to, however, is subject to all for judgment.
The individual may be sincere and honestly seeking Christ, but the protestant belief can never be Christian just as a lie can never become the truth.
Why then are you are a few other youth insisting that to point out the errors of Protestantism so that we can make sure that they do not infiltrate the Orthodox Church is a ministry of hate?
What things have you all been saying? They are not Orthodox at all.
Sigh, this makes me very sad. Every single Christian group (including us!) says they are the only true denomination of Christianity and everyone else is utterly wrong. And when we fail to focus on the 95% of things that are in common and only look at the 5% of the differences - that's when the divide only deepens. We should be brothers in love, not denominations at war.
...they taught me how to accept other denominations and that just because someone interprets the bible differently doesn't mean he or she are wrong.
Concerning the Catholics; just because we don't believe in some of their teachings, doesn't make THEM wrong or US right.
I am Orthodox, but I think that both churches believe in the pope's infallibility but the Orthodox church is just "not official" about it.
Lets focus on ourselves and not on the protestant church. We should let God defend our orthodox church.
Do you have no faith that God will keep our church and its congregants faithful in our teachings... You've completely taken God out of the equation. God has kept this church strong for many years. HAVE A LITTLE FAITH HERE "father."
I just hope that people recognize other denominations as Christians and learn from their good people
Who are we to say that their teachings are corrupt?
WHY, FATHER PETER AND OTHERS ARE YOU OK WITH HATEFUL, JUDGMENTAL, AND CONDEMNING COMMENTS AGAINST OTHER DENOMINATIONS?
These comments all show a Protestant view of the Church. That everyone is OK. That it doesn't matter so much what we believe and practice. That criticism of beliefs is inadmissable because it asserts that what WE believe is true. To believe in such a way IS Protestantism.
Fr.Peter, It seems as if our protestant friends here are posting without reading anything prior to their post. I tried desperately in my last post to show that while the language between individual and belief often times gets mixed up, it is alright to criticize the belief. It almost seems as if they are running some sort of smear campaign against us, either that or they are honestly that ignorant.
They don't want to admit that their belief is wrong. They always claim that the Bible is the only source "not church fathers or anything" , but yet they manage to take two verses out of two completely different books in the Bible, combine them, and then magically come up with the rapture. I honestly have no respect for their beliefs, it's disgusting and not Christian at all. Because of their wrong beliefs they made up, they are ridiculously self conceited. Go into a protestant church and try to count how many people "Are filled with the spirit and begin talking in tongues", even though in 1 Corinthians 14 : 26 it says that if there is no one to interpret the language then let the person be quiet. Somehow they missed this verse.
Father, you are completely correct, and in your warnings about saying that all beliefs are okay. Everything explaining the dangers, is important and I agree with. My problem is with statements like "What I can say with absolute certainty is that protestantism is not Christian" or on posts made in other threads, for example, about Catholic mysteries being invalid.
If this is not judging, what is it? The teachings against the theology are good, but my point is that it is being muddled up in the judgments we have no right to make. How can we make such statements? And I think that is what others and I are getting upset by. Are we God and have the right to say that certain people cannot be considered Christian in any way?
That's my point, is that we need to only focus on the theology differences (which are important to point out and everyone has done well to describe them), but the conclusions drawn from them and judgments against them - I think we are overstepping our boundaries.
Servant you still seem to be misunderstanding.Protestantism is NOT Christian, had you taken the time to actually read my post on this very issue you would grasp this concept. We are criticizing the religion, not the people. Plenty of early church fathers have done this very thing, and the people of that time did not always get all flustered and upset when someone criticized their religion. It is an impossibility for Protestantism to be Christian, it is just not possible. But because you do not want to read others posts, you are going to be stuck not understanding.
Servant33 the Church has already decided that Catholic mysteries are not valid. This is why all Catholic converts are baptised and chrismated.
And as Ioannes says, you are still confused. How is it Christian to deny the sacraments, the priesthood, the Virgin Mary, the Saints, the Church, fasting, the prayers of the Church etc etc. How is it Christian to teach that all that is needed for salvation is to believe Jesus died for our sins? How is it Christian to teach that all must speak in tongues? How is it Christian to have worship with an electric band? etc etc.
It is not possible to call any of these things Christian. So what is a person teaching if he teaches these things? It cannot be Christianity.
[quote author=servant33 link=topic=10598.msg130233#msg130233 date=1297276679] If this is not judging, what is it?
i haven't been following the post much but i wanted to just comment on the the statement above.
What in the world is wrong with "judging"?? Jesus says in the Bible, "Judge not, that you be not judged" (Matthew 7:1 NKJ). Ok......did He say it's a sin?!....i haven't read that anywhere in the Bible. Judging is NOT a sin...it's not a forbidden act. Actually, it's recommended. We must judge to discern. How are we supposed to know right from wrong? we judge. How are we supposed to choose friends for our well being? we judge. How are we supposed to learn the Truth and the true God that truly exists in heaven? we JUDGE. everything we do is done through judging. Every single choice we have to make is a judgment that can hurt us/others or help us/others....and there will always be an opportunity cost with that choice (business majors).
No one likes to admit this......AT ALL!!! simply because they don't want to be "judged"......it's not God that they are considering but rather their brothers and sisters who they wish not to judge them for their acts; to do anything that i desire i don't want others to judge me for it.
Mina, this is a good point. People throw the word "judge" around because they are uncomfortable with what is being said. So they use this kind of ad hominim attack in a feeble attempt to try and stop it.
We are not to judge the state of the soul of others. But we are to test the spirits, if they are of God. We are to test the teachings to see if they are Orthodox.
We are not judging the souls of Protestants. That would not be right. But we most definitely judge what is taught and what is practiced to see if it is Orthodox.
I would say with regard to judgment or the fear of it: If people who have actually been in the Protestant and/or Catholic churches can't judge their false doctrines, then who can? You leave it only to God, right? God is, after all, the supreme judge. But I will share this, even though it's embarrassing and I might be judged for it... :o :-[
When I joined the Catholic Church, only 6 years ago, I was pretty well convinced that it was everything they told me it was. I had not only been through RCIA (Rights of Catholic Initiation for Adults; faith & doctrine education classes), I had actually gone through a few months more of it than most others because I began attending Mass after that year's RCIA classes had started, so I couldn't be confirmed or baptized that year, but had to wait til the next year. This gave me additional time to ask all the questions that were on my mind. And I did. I didn't hold anything back, and coming from Protestantism, I had some very specific questions in mind that I wanted answers to. And I got them and was satisfied by them. There were some answers that I did not understand or couldn't quite see the logic in, but since all the questions I asked were happily answered in a friendly, open-minded manner (very different than the church I was raised in!), and most of them seemed to make sense, I figured these people must really be on to something, and if I trusted in the protection of the Holy Spirit in guiding the Church, I could trust that the Church knew what it was doing even if I didn't understand it. And so, even though I considered quitting and giving up several times before being confirmed, baptized and welcomed into the Church, I eventually went on with it, aided by a LOT of prayer.
The point is, I became convinced that since I had prayed a lot about it and overcome a lot of obstacles and other worrying things in the process, God Himself must've been guiding me to His Church. If He had wanted me to be in another Church, I wouldn't have continued on into the Catholic Church. In American slang, I had "drank the Kool-Aid", believing despite what clearly seems now to be many circular arguments, strange interpretations, and large doses of sophistry, that the apologetics of the Catholic Church represented defenses of the true Apostolic Church of God in Rome, headed by Pope John Paul II and (a little later around that time) the now Pope Benedict XIV.
I wonder, I just wonder, how many other people have laid at God's feet their own interpretations and judgments, so as to convince themselves of the correctness of some action, or (as it may be) the holiness and submission (to God's will) of inaction.
Put another way: If it is only up to God to judge, and Protestants or Catholics believe that God has guided them to whatever church they're in, then are we to take their word for it and assume that God does in fact guide His children to churches that discard this or that part of the Apostolic faith? The very faith that HE HIMSELF has brought to us?
Thanks be to God, I know my answer to this question -- but only because I've been there!
first of all geomike, one thing i learned in the orthodox church is the BIBLE IS ONE. YOU CAN NOT LEARN ONE VERSE SEPARATE FROM ANOTHER. THE BIBLE IS ONE WORD THAT GOES TOGETHER. A VERSE IN DEUTRONOMY MAY COINCIDE WITH A VERSE IN MATTHEW, IN FACT AT MOST TIMES THEY DO. TALK TO YOU FATHER OF CONFESSION ABOUT THIS. IT IS WRONG TE SEPARATE THE BOOKS.
Father peter, you stated : How is it Christian to deny the sacraments, the priesthood, the Virgin Mary, the Saints, the Church, fasting, the prayers of the Church etc etc. How is it Christian to teach that all that is needed for salvation is to believe Jesus died for our sins? How is it Christian to teach that all must speak in tongues? How is it Christian to have worship with an electric band? etc etc.
is it wrong to follow the bible descriptively? it is unfair to claim all protestants or any other denomination for that fact use electric bands because they do not. they use the horns and cymbals and triangles david speaks about in his psalms. it is incorrect the views of the virgin. they believe she is a chosen woman from God who was a virgin and gave the birth to our Lord, not just any other woman. they do not deny the church for they are a church, giving communion and preaching the word. they fast etc. it seems that alot of this comes from the usual judgements of this denomination but not having walked into enough of them to group them together as one.
the church i go to now which is my husbands, i wish i could get an abouna to come experience and then tell me what it is that is wrong. i've strengthened my relationship with God since I have been here through His word.
How can your husband's community offer communion when they do not have a priest, do not have an altar, do not celebrate the Liturgy, and do not believe that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of our Lord?
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=10598.msg130243#msg130243 date=1297281203] I would say with regard to
When I joined the Catholic Church, only 6 years ago,....
The point is, I became convinced that ....
I wonder, I just wonder, ...
Put another way: If it is only up to God to judge, ...
Thanks be to God, I know my answer to this question -- but only because I've been there!
I think Fr Peter made it clear that we are not to judge a specific person. we judge (or test as his reverence puts it) the belief, the faith that is declared by them to others. if you am to attack a false teaching, i can't just get the person who is spreading it and judge and condemn him but rather the teaching itself. maybe it would be easier to understand when knowing that the teaching is what stays on, moves from one mind to another and not the person himself. we all will die. our beliefs and what we teach is what stays on.
[quote author=Rubina maana link=topic=10598.msg130245#msg130245 date=1297281876] it is incorrect the views of the virgin. they believe she is a chosen woman from God who was a virgin and gave the birth to our Lord, not just any other woman. they do not deny the church for they are a church, giving communion and preaching the word. they fast etc. it seems that alot of this comes from the usual judgements of this denomination but not having walked into enough of them to group them together as one. the church i go to now which is my husbands, i wish i could get an abouna to come experience and then tell me what it is that is wrong. i've strengthened my relationship with God since I have been here through His word.
I guess this is a good place to declare this:
What protestants lack is the teachings of the Fathers: the Tradition (with the capital T). The Bible is there with it's many mysteries......who can interpret it other than the Person who wrote it, GOD incarnate: Jesus Christ. The Interpretations of the Bible that is used in the Orthodox Church is over 1700 years old. The interpretation was given by Jesus to His Apostles and Disciples, of them we have the New Testament. After that they have disciples and those disciples were those who established the churches of the One Holy Church. Apostolic Succession. THAT IS OUR BASES FOR ORTHODOX TEACHINGS....a line that goes back to Jesus himself. There are enough history books that proves this.
Now go back a couple of hundred years and know the linage of the Protestant denominations.
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=10598.msg130277#msg130277 date=1297288772] Mina: I am a little bit confused as to why you quoted my post in reply #57. Have I somehow violated what Fr. Peter posted? :-[
Comments
We judge other teachings by the measure of the truth of Orthodoxy. If you do not believe that Orthodoxy is the truth then you seriously need to have a chat with your priest.
Our opinions do not count for very much at all. Either we believe what the Orthodox Church teaches and we are Orthodox or we do not believe what the Orthodox Church teaches and we are in error.
Let me put your question another way. Who are you to deny the teachings of all the Fathers of the Church for 2000 years? Why is your opinion of error more authoritative than theirs?
Let me ask you also...
i. Is it a corruption of the Truth to deny the sacraments?
ii. Is it a corruption of the Truth to deny the priesthood?
iii. Is it a corruption of the Truth to deny the intercession of the Saints?
iv. Is it a corruption of the Truth to teach that the Virgin Mary was just any woman?
v. Is it a corruption of the Truth to teach that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son?
vi. Is it a corruption of the Truth to teach that salvation is a matter of only believing that Jesus died for us?
vii..... etc etc
These are all Protestant teachings. Which ones of these do you think are not essential to our salvation?
Edit: Yeah, what Father Peter says! :) :-[
Let me ask you this... HOW IS ANY OF THIS HELPING ANYONE?
Let me ask you this... WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
Let me ask you this... WHERE IS YOUR FAITH IN GOD?
Let me ask you this... DO YOU BELIEVE GOD IS CAPABLE OF PROTECTING HIS WORD?
Let me ask you this... WHY, FATHER PETER AND OTHERS ARE YOU OK WITH HATEFUL, JUDGMENTAL, AND CONDEMNING COMMENTS AGAINST OTHER DENOMINATIONS?
Finally let me ask you... Are all of you soooooo sinless that you can start pointing out others' weaknesses?
LET THIS GO!
We know our doctrine
We know what we believe in
You think youre helping the church, but in reality you have turned orthodoxy into a CULT... AN ORGANIZATION... Much like a football team...
FOCUS ON YOURSELVES AND YOUR SALVATION FIRST, THEN YOU CAN FOCUS ON OTHERS.
And I'm sorry I am not being accurate but another poster said that all churches want to unite but to the extent of "their" own churches ways?
I can honestly say I don't think this is ALL entirely true. This is what were taught but definetly not what I have experienced. First of all if this statement is true why doesn't the Coptic Orthodox Church stand up and not be like this?
I am Coptic. I married a man who's christian but not coptic. We go to his church. They do not label themselves protestant, they are not protestant. But what they believe yes is to unite the church but not by their terms but by the terms of CHRIST and the BIBLE. The bible is pretty clear. No twists no turns about it and Revelation is going to happen, ask the Revelation retreat with St. Marks last November, so why aren't we preparing ourselves.
Yes preparation is to stay close to God but how are we doing that. One thing that was interesting that I heard from my mother-in-law is she got up and said to the church, "you guys are getting too comfortable each other. everyone knows everyone here. why are we not acting as it says in ACTS. why are we not bringing to God what His only begotten Son died for. Why are we not spreading truth and light?"
and COPTIC BOY 777- one thing i learned from st. marks church is JOY comes in the following order JESUS OTHERS and then YOURSELF. Yes you please God, when you please Jesus and have a good relationship with Him when you can talk to Him and feel Him in your life, this will be worrying about your salvation but RECOGNIZE the whole bible is about bringing the world to Christ. It is our duty as Christians to spread the Good News.
Nothing should be a cult or an organization and by no means a football team. Our objective is to forward our relationship in Christ and to bring people to know His love and salvation and Word.
Copts have written books about protestant vs. orthodox and how protestants are wrong. Do you know how many VARIOUS denominations exist? Maybe some people need to point out whats wrong and right but why cant we tell people whats right based on the bible. I think this separation by denominations is hurting us. WE are the BODY OF CHRIST. How can the hand move without knowing what the other hand is doing?
THIS HAS BECOME A SELF CENTERED CULT.
Let me ask you this... HOW IS ANY OF THIS HELPING ANYONE?
Let me ask you this... WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
Let me ask you this... WHERE IS YOUR FAITH IN GOD?
Let me ask you this... DO YOU BELIEVE GOD IS CAPABLE OF PROTECTING HIS WORD?
Let me ask you this... WHY, FATHER PETER AND OTHERS ARE YOU OK WITH HATEFUL, JUDGMENTAL, AND CONDEMNING COMMENTS AGAINST OTHER DENOMINATIONS?
Finally let me ask you... Are all of you soooooo sinless that you can start pointing out others' weaknesses?
LET THIS GO!
We know our doctrine
We know what we believe in
You think youre helping the church, but in reality you have turned orthodoxy into a CULT... AN ORGANIZATION... Much like a football team...
FOCUS ON YOURSELVES AND YOUR SALVATION FIRST, THEN YOU CAN FOCUS ON OTHERS.
Wow, someone is fired up.
I haven't seen any "hateful" comments against other denominations.
And a heresy is what it is: a heresy. It's the duty of the clergy and for every Orthodox Christian's benefit to be aware of the heresies that some are allowing to infiltrate the Church. Especially when people like you avoid answering direct questions and try to spread ignorance regarding these heresies. It's because of the ridiculous stand that people like you take, that innocent people who simply don't know better are deceived by heresies.
Refusing to acknowledge the danger they pose precipitates their spread.
[quote author=Rubina maana link=topic=10598.msg130125#msg130125 date=1297203088]
Copts have written books about protestant vs. orthodox and how protestants are wrong. Do you know how many VARIOUS denominations exist? Maybe some people need to point out whats wrong and right but why cant we tell people whats right based on the bible. I think this separation by denominations is hurting us. WE are the BODY OF CHRIST. How can the hand move without knowing what the other hand is doing?
I don't understand your point. So you're saying, "Ignore the heresies, it's all ok, shattering the truth of the Church's teachings is not a problem at all"?
Can you tell me which Church you go to that you can have such a view? In which country are you?
Which of my words are hateful?
It is quite concerning that so many Coptic youth are determined to defend the errors of Protestantism at all costs.
The great St. Paul once related: 'When I was a boy....I thought and acted like a boy...When I became a man...I did the things of a man'.
You my boy, are a boy, hence: Copticboy777. Emotion does not make for a valid point to your argument, but it does make you a "boy". If you open your eyes to the evil of the Protestant Thinking, you will realize, as a man, that it is incompatible with the Son of the Living God.
You owe Fr. Peter the regard of being a Father, a scholar, and a convert who knows inherently the evil that lurks in the simple talk of the Protestant thinking.
I'm sorry if we seem that we are judging anybody. We are not judging any person. I pray that I haven't judged anyone. I promise that you will not find a single Protestant that is more sinful than me. If I were to judge them I'd be a hypocrite.
However I'm not judging them. I'm judging the ideology. For example (forgive me if this is a poor example), I'm not supposed to judge an alcoholic, however if I love him I should point out to him how sinful alcoholism is. I should also make clear to those around me that even though there are many alcoholics this isn't right. That is exactly what Fr. Peter and others are trying to do in this thread.
St. Athanasius didn't say "I know what I believe, and how would condemning Arianism help anyone?". St. Anthony who went out into the towns and spoke against Arianism certainly wasn't judgmental. Certainly he believed that Christ could protect his word, but he wasn't going to see people standing on train tracks and say God would save them.
They certainly didn't say, "well we all believe in the Bible, lets all reunite and put aside our differences. Who cares anyway whether Christ is God or not." Furthermore we see this response by many of the Church Fathers. In fact the majority of the Church Fathers had to fight against heresies and some even had to stop heretical songs from entering the Church.
Were all of our Church Fathers judgmental. No! They cared about the Church and they refused that the Faith be diluted. This is the faith we have today. The faith that survived almost 2000 years. Now it is in danger because differences in Theology and faith aren't taken that seriously anymore. The Church Fathers such as St. Gregory the Theologian fought against the Apollinarian heresy. This heresy stated: "that Jesus could not have had a human mind; rather, that Jesus Christ had a human body and lower soul (the seat of the emotions) but a divine mind." Nowadays people would say why can't we just all be one. However the Church Fathers went around explaining the danger of this.
This is one of the points of the thread. To point out the dangers of Protestantism (we're not judging Protestants, but Protestantism). Certainly it is necessary and very very important to have a relationship with God. In fact if there is no relationship with God, then knowing the correct faith and theology hardly matters. However, I pray that this is not the case. If we want a perfect relationship with God we must know him and know about him. That is the reason we trust the Church Fathers. They had strong relationships with God and so when they spoke of God, they spoke of a reality, not an obscure philosophy.
Certainly if it was just me in the world, I wouldn't need to even think of other churches. Unfortunately (fortunately ;)) that is not the case and I need to take care of my brothers also.
Again we are judging the ideology not the people. One of the best sayings of St. Augustine (there are some problems in his writings, but I think this is fine. If not I hope someone more knowledgeable than me can correct this): "Judge the sin not the sinner."
We are judging the ideology right now. We know that our belief is that of the Early Church and we can't let it be diluted or let our brothers fall into heretical ideology.
Please pray for me
Thanks for the correction.
I will modify my post with the negative prefix. That is what I meant.
Is it acceptable to consider protestants Christian? This is something that I cannot answer with any amount of certainty. I do not know the hearts of anyone and therefore cannot pass judgment on my fellow human beings. What I can say with absolute certainty is that protestantism is not Christian. The individual being separate from the belief is subject to be judged only by God, the belief the individual adheres to, however, is subject to all for judgment. This may seem confusing so bear with me in my attempt to explain my position. As a former protestant I have the experience to understand and know the belief system and that I was truly seeking Christ and others are only seeking momentary bliss and self directed worship, not of the true God but a God they want to believe in. So it is possible that a person who is not Orthodox but is actively seeking Christ, be Christian. Again I am not a judge and have no place pointing out who is and who is not, and this is why I condemn the belief system adhered to by protestants and not the actual individuals associated with the belief.
Why is it that some may consider protestantism to be Christian? I have been told that the Christology of protestantism is the exact same as the Orthodox belief, therefore protestantism is Christian. I think this tends to confuse our youth and those with little knowledge to Orthodoxy. Essentially we are to believe that the same result can be achieved through protestantism as Orthodoxy, both of which are polar opposites. Orthodoxy embracing suffering and rejecting the worldly and protestantism embracing politics, the worldly, often times material pleasure as well as the physical, and the list goes on. Since protestantism is much easier and apparently it is acceptable to many Orthodox to have faith only, why do we struggle the Orthodox spiritual life? If protestantism is Christian and we can achieve the same result as Orthodoxy, what we are doing is pointless and void of meaning. Protestantism cannot be considered Christian without making Orthodoxy relative and insignificant. “You believe there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:19,20) If we are basing our acceptance of protestantism based on their belief in God, then logically we must assume that the demons are Christians as well. St. James makes this plainly obvious in the verse above. He recognizes that it is a good thing to believe in God, but where exactly does faith alone get you? He states that “..even the demons believe, and tremble!” So the demons believe in Christ, and must understand Christology because they “tremble” according to St. James.
What exactly is the etymology of the word “protestant”? Protestant comes from the word protest which is defined by the New Oxford American Dictionary as: a statement or action expressing disapproval of or objection to something : the Hungarian team lodged an official protest | two senior scientists resigned in protest.
• an organized public demonstration expressing strong objection to a policy or course of action adopted by those in authority : [as adj. ] a protest march.
2 Law a written declaration, typically by a notary public, that a bill has been presented and payment or acceptance refused.
Protestantism is to protest, but protest against what? In this case against religious authority, mainly the Roman Catholic Church or anything similar to it. Protestantism is to rebel against religious authority, the authority passed on to us by the apostles. How is it that we can accept a belief completely opposed to Orthodox Christianity in every way. Protestantism rejects everything that, according to Orthodox tradition and doctrine, makes us Christian. That is a contradiction of our own self and what Orthodoxy is, we accept protestantism as Christian, while protestantism actively rejects what is deemed as a necessity for salvation.
By accepting protestantism we are creating confusion amongst our people and we cannot buy into this liberal ideology that “we all believe in God, who we share no common opinion.” Accepting this tells our people that protestantism is acceptable, their beliefs, their doctrines, and even their worship. How is this acceptable, but if protestantism is Christian then there is nothing wrong with leaving the church for the path of least resistance. The mind of our youth works like this, they are not mature and tend to find the easiest way to do things, as opposed to the right way of doing things. This is something that cannot be reconciled, why stay in the Orthodox church if indeed protestantism is one in the same, just much easier? Anyone who regurgitates this phrase that protestantism is Christian is contradicting themselves in the same sentence.
“And in one holy, universal, apostolic church..” (The Creed) If indeed you believe that protestantism is Christian, part of the same Christian church, then you must omit this phrase from the Creed and never say it. Protestantism is not one but around 40,000 very different denominations, which also contradicts Ephesians 4:5 “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.” You must believe that there are many Lords, many faiths, and many baptisms. Simply because there are so many denominations that are distinctly different, their views on our Lord differ, their views on baptism differ, and of course they are distinctly different faiths. So this belief, that protestantism is Christian also contradicts the creed that we have said for centuries, and the Holy Scriptures.
Let us look back in history and see just how protestants viewed our own Coptic Orthodox Church. Here are some correspondence from the Church Missionary Society about our church.
i. 1752, Moravian Brethren. "..in all their conversation to endeavour to direct attention to the essence of Christianity ... and teach them how, by means of Jesus' merits, they might obtain rest for their souls, true holiness of life, and evangelical liberty, which leave the conscience unfettered by human traditions".
ii. 1850, Church Mission Society. "The missionaries seem to follow almost too strictly the plan on which the mission was begun, to seek the friendship of the clergy, especially the higher clergy of the Eastern Churches, with a view of influencing them gently, in the hope that by slow degrees they would become convinced of their errors and themselves reform their respective Churches. But the system has failed... Individual conversions [of Copts] must be the aim, as the only means of prosecuting reformation".
iii. 1850, Church Mission Society. "Through the Church Mussuin Society missionaries throughout the Nile Valley, hundreds of persons had their knowledge of the way of salvation corrected, their faith directed away from their own works, to the death and suffering and obedience of the Son of God as the reason and ground of salvation from sin and its consequences".
iv. 1852. "Rev Mr. Leider has done good among the Copts, and the young men whom he has instructed refuse on conscientious grounds to enter the priesthood of this corrupt Church.... The American Missionary Association has resolved to establish a Mission among the Copts".
v. 1896. "[The Copts] must have had some glimpse of the light that illumines the soul and leads up to the throne of God. To help such a people [the Copts] to loosen themselves from the chains of superstition, and to come out of the dungeon of darkness into which their surroundings had imprisoned them, and lead them forth into the light and liberty of the Christian faith, is surely a duty and a Christian privilege".
(Provided by Fr. Peter Farrington)
“For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been given to him by My Father.” From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.” (John 6:64-66)
Some argue that taking this stance, against protestantism being Christian, will only push protestants away from Orthodoxy. I beg to differ. I do not believe it possible to turn someone away from Christ, since anyone that comes to Christ, must have been given to him by God, how can we stop that? What we can prevent is our own from being deceived and confused by protestantism. The idea that we can prevent someone from coming to Christ, is absurdity. As the verse above shows, God gives this, who are we to take it away? The fact is we cannot, but we should not further delude those who adhere to protestantism by sending them the message that the true church sees them as equals. How can two opposites be equal? The individual may be sincere and honestly seeking Christ, but the protestant belief can never be Christian just as a lie can never become the truth.
Can we please stop criticizing the protestant church... take the plank out of your eyes first. Lets focus on ourselves and not on the protestant church. We should let God defend our orthodox church. It is the church of the faithful after all and of the the martyrs.
LETS FOCUS ON LOVING OUR CHURCH NOT HATING OTHER CHURCHES!
LETS ACTUALLY BE CHRISTINA PLEASSSSSSE!
DUDE! I'm behind you on this! Thank God, now I know other people see it too.
The first post on this thread is about how certain protestants had exalted themselves so high that they started looking down and completely belittling everyone else, and we are criticizing them for it. Ironically, however, throughout this thread we have become just like them. "These are some hate comments that certain protestants wrote about the Orthodox. Now let us do our best to do the same to them." I agree that of course we need to keep the sound faith and doctrine, but this has become too muddled up in personal attacks on Protestants. Let's keep this about theology and not the hate that is being illustrated. Clearly, we are being judgmental when we do this, whether we claim to do it or not.
"Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand...
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another"
Romans 14
- Pray for my weakness
It is a weakness to pretend to love others so much that you will not identify their sickness when they are ill. And the teachings of Protestantism do produce a spiritual sickness.
I would imagine that I have been a Protestant longer than you have been alive. I believe that I, and others here, have a very much greater knowledge of the teachings of Protestantism and the dangers they pose to the Orthodox Church than you have. It is a weakness to elevate personal opinions over the experience of others.
The Fathers of the Church have taught us very clearly indeed that we must not allow the Church to be corrupted by false doctrines. Were they also illustrating hate?
No-one has said anything about the persons of Protestants in general. Do you want me to quote what has been said about them..
I always say that we must respect the person and their right to believe in whatever wrong thing they want to, but that doesn't mean that we should respect the content of whatever their wrong belief is. We don't have to respect Protestantism as a belief system.
Do not confuse the belief with the individual. Some of the individual may indeed be actively seeking Christ..
I don't see any hating here. But a criticism of what is taught by Protestantism. That is entirely proper and Christian.
Many of us used to be Protestants, Catholics, etc. and are talking about what we personally experienced and were taught. That's not hate.
It has nothing to do with looking at other churches or personalities within them and calling them "non-Christian". It's about their doctrines that are false and threatening to corrupt the faith of those who don't know any better because they haven't experienced Protestantism like we have.
This has nothing to do with Protestants at all, and is everything to do with the false teachings of Protestantism.
We are not judging any person. I pray that I haven't judged anyone. I promise that you will not find a single Protestant that is more sinful than me. If I were to judge them I'd be a hypocrite.
This is one of the points of the thread. To point out the dangers of Protestantism (we're not judging Protestants, but Protestantism).
What I can say with absolute certainty is that protestantism is not Christian. The individual being separate from the belief is subject to be judged only by God, the belief the individual adheres to, however, is subject to all for judgment.
The individual may be sincere and honestly seeking Christ, but the protestant belief can never be Christian just as a lie can never become the truth.
Why then are you are a few other youth insisting that to point out the errors of Protestantism so that we can make sure that they do not infiltrate the Orthodox Church is a ministry of hate?
What things have you all been saying? They are not Orthodox at all.
Sigh, this makes me very sad. Every single Christian group (including us!) says they are the only true denomination of Christianity and everyone else is utterly wrong. And when we fail to focus on the 95% of things that are in common and only look at the 5% of the differences - that's when the divide only deepens. We should be brothers in love, not denominations at war.
...they taught me how to accept other denominations and that just because someone interprets the bible differently doesn't mean he or she are wrong.
Concerning the Catholics; just because we don't believe in some of their teachings, doesn't make THEM wrong or US right.
I am Orthodox, but I think that both churches believe in the pope's infallibility but the Orthodox church is just "not official" about it.
Lets focus on ourselves and not on the protestant church. We should let God defend our orthodox church.
Do you have no faith that God will keep our church and its congregants faithful in our teachings... You've completely taken God out of the equation. God has kept this church strong for many years. HAVE A LITTLE FAITH HERE "father."
I just hope that people recognize other denominations as Christians and learn from their good people
Who are we to say that their teachings are corrupt?
WHY, FATHER PETER AND OTHERS ARE YOU OK WITH HATEFUL, JUDGMENTAL, AND CONDEMNING COMMENTS AGAINST OTHER DENOMINATIONS?
These comments all show a Protestant view of the Church. That everyone is OK. That it doesn't matter so much what we believe and practice. That criticism of beliefs is inadmissable because it asserts that what WE believe is true. To believe in such a way IS Protestantism.
"What I can say with absolute certainty is that protestantism is not Christian"
or on posts made in other threads, for example, about Catholic mysteries being invalid.
If this is not judging, what is it? The teachings against the theology are good, but my point is that it is being muddled up in the judgments we have no right to make. How can we make such statements? And I think that is what others and I are getting upset by. Are we God and have the right to say that certain people cannot be considered Christian in any way?
That's my point, is that we need to only focus on the theology differences (which are important to point out and everyone has done well to describe them), but the conclusions drawn from them and judgments against them - I think we are overstepping our boundaries.
And as Ioannes says, you are still confused. How is it Christian to deny the sacraments, the priesthood, the Virgin Mary, the Saints, the Church, fasting, the prayers of the Church etc etc. How is it Christian to teach that all that is needed for salvation is to believe Jesus died for our sins? How is it Christian to teach that all must speak in tongues? How is it Christian to have worship with an electric band? etc etc.
It is not possible to call any of these things Christian. So what is a person teaching if he teaches these things? It cannot be Christianity.
What do YOU think it should be called?
If this is not judging, what is it?
i haven't been following the post much but i wanted to just comment on the the statement above.
What in the world is wrong with "judging"?? Jesus says in the Bible, "Judge not, that you be not judged" (Matthew 7:1 NKJ). Ok......did He say it's a sin?!....i haven't read that anywhere in the Bible.
Judging is NOT a sin...it's not a forbidden act. Actually, it's recommended. We must judge to discern. How are we supposed to know right from wrong? we judge. How are we supposed to choose friends for our well being? we judge. How are we supposed to learn the Truth and the true God that truly exists in heaven? we JUDGE. everything we do is done through judging. Every single choice we have to make is a judgment that can hurt us/others or help us/others....and there will always be an opportunity cost with that choice (business majors).
No one likes to admit this......AT ALL!!! simply because they don't want to be "judged"......it's not God that they are considering but rather their brothers and sisters who they wish not to judge them for their acts; to do anything that i desire i don't want others to judge me for it.
We are not judging the souls of Protestants. That would not be right. But we most definitely judge what is taught and what is practiced to see if it is Orthodox.
When I joined the Catholic Church, only 6 years ago, I was pretty well convinced that it was everything they told me it was. I had not only been through RCIA (Rights of Catholic Initiation for Adults; faith & doctrine education classes), I had actually gone through a few months more of it than most others because I began attending Mass after that year's RCIA classes had started, so I couldn't be confirmed or baptized that year, but had to wait til the next year. This gave me additional time to ask all the questions that were on my mind. And I did. I didn't hold anything back, and coming from Protestantism, I had some very specific questions in mind that I wanted answers to. And I got them and was satisfied by them. There were some answers that I did not understand or couldn't quite see the logic in, but since all the questions I asked were happily answered in a friendly, open-minded manner (very different than the church I was raised in!), and most of them seemed to make sense, I figured these people must really be on to something, and if I trusted in the protection of the Holy Spirit in guiding the Church, I could trust that the Church knew what it was doing even if I didn't understand it. And so, even though I considered quitting and giving up several times before being confirmed, baptized and welcomed into the Church, I eventually went on with it, aided by a LOT of prayer.
The point is, I became convinced that since I had prayed a lot about it and overcome a lot of obstacles and other worrying things in the process, God Himself must've been guiding me to His Church. If He had wanted me to be in another Church, I wouldn't have continued on into the Catholic Church. In American slang, I had "drank the Kool-Aid", believing despite what clearly seems now to be many circular arguments, strange interpretations, and large doses of sophistry, that the apologetics of the Catholic Church represented defenses of the true Apostolic Church of God in Rome, headed by Pope John Paul II and (a little later around that time) the now Pope Benedict XIV.
I wonder, I just wonder, how many other people have laid at God's feet their own interpretations and judgments, so as to convince themselves of the correctness of some action, or (as it may be) the holiness and submission (to God's will) of inaction.
Put another way: If it is only up to God to judge, and Protestants or Catholics believe that God has guided them to whatever church they're in, then are we to take their word for it and assume that God does in fact guide His children to churches that discard this or that part of the Apostolic faith? The very faith that HE HIMSELF has brought to us?
Thanks be to God, I know my answer to this question -- but only because I've been there!
Father peter,
you stated : How is it Christian to deny the sacraments, the priesthood, the Virgin Mary, the Saints, the Church, fasting, the prayers of the Church etc etc. How is it Christian to teach that all that is needed for salvation is to believe Jesus died for our sins? How is it Christian to teach that all must speak in tongues? How is it Christian to have worship with an electric band? etc etc.
is it wrong to follow the bible descriptively? it is unfair to claim all protestants or any other denomination for that fact use electric bands because they do not. they use the horns and cymbals and triangles david speaks about in his psalms.
it is incorrect the views of the virgin. they believe she is a chosen woman from God who was a virgin and gave the birth to our Lord, not just any other woman. they do not deny the church for they are a church, giving communion and preaching the word. they fast etc. it seems that alot of this comes from the usual judgements of this denomination but not having walked into enough of them to group them together as one.
the church i go to now which is my husbands, i wish i could get an abouna to come experience and then tell me what it is that is wrong. i've strengthened my relationship with God since I have been here through His word.
Which denomination are they in particular?
I would say with regard to
When I joined the Catholic Church, only 6 years ago,....
The point is, I became convinced that ....
I wonder, I just wonder, ...
Put another way: If it is only up to God to judge, ...
Thanks be to God, I know my answer to this question -- but only because I've been there!
I think Fr Peter made it clear that we are not to judge a specific person. we judge (or test as his reverence puts it) the belief, the faith that is declared by them to others. if you am to attack a false teaching, i can't just get the person who is spreading it and judge and condemn him but rather the teaching itself. maybe it would be easier to understand when knowing that the teaching is what stays on, moves from one mind to another and not the person himself. we all will die. our beliefs and what we teach is what stays on.
it is incorrect the views of the virgin. they believe she is a chosen woman from God who was a virgin and gave the birth to our Lord, not just any other woman. they do not deny the church for they are a church, giving communion and preaching the word. they fast etc. it seems that alot of this comes from the usual judgements of this denomination but not having walked into enough of them to group them together as one.
the church i go to now which is my husbands, i wish i could get an abouna to come experience and then tell me what it is that is wrong. i've strengthened my relationship with God since I have been here through His word.
I guess this is a good place to declare this:
What protestants lack is the teachings of the Fathers: the Tradition (with the capital T). The Bible is there with it's many mysteries......who can interpret it other than the Person who wrote it, GOD incarnate: Jesus Christ. The Interpretations of the Bible that is used in the Orthodox Church is over 1700 years old. The interpretation was given by Jesus to His Apostles and Disciples, of them we have the New Testament. After that they have disciples and those disciples were those who established the churches of the One Holy Church. Apostolic Succession. THAT IS OUR BASES FOR ORTHODOX TEACHINGS....a line that goes back to Jesus himself. There are enough history books that proves this.
Now go back a couple of hundred years and know the linage of the Protestant denominations.
Mina: I am a little bit confused as to why you quoted my post in reply #57. Have I somehow violated what Fr. Peter posted? :-[
oh...i dono.....don't take it personal thoo.