Mt 16:18 "upon this rock I will found My church, that even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Quite simply the church Christ founded should still be here from then to now, and nothing will or has overcome it. Therefore the true church should be able to prove itself through historical means, the Orthodox church is the ONLY church that can do this. Since the RCC went astray, even far before 1054, it left the grace of the Holy Spirt and therefore cannot be considered true anymore. No protestant church goes any further back than the 16th century. They rely on rejecting the church and their invented doctrines, how is that Christian?
Rome is a Petrine See, yes (Antioch also has that honor). There is a difference between Apostolic foundation and Apostolic faith. Is Rome Apostolic? Yes. Does Rome preserve the Apostolic faith? No.
Isn't the See of Rome (technically) Constantinople? because didnt the see of Rome move to Constantinople after Rome got burned and Constantine the Great established Constantinople as the Capital of the Christian Empire and thus the See (patriarch of Rome) is the Orthodox Byzantine Christians?
emperor constantine wanted the head of the church to be in his city and the patriarch to be subject to him. not that he was biased in any way of course... strangely, the patriarch of rome wanted to be in charge too. of course, he wasn't biased either... strange how 'God' told them both something different! ;) how easy it is to make mistakes when we are proud and we only pray so God can confirm what we already decided. may God protect us from this pride.
I have only been going there since October so I am trying to understand. I can not tell you why because they do not have priests you are right in that sense. They only have pastors, to lead the the flock of the church to Christ. They consider the front the church an altar and therefore acknowledge the altar and prayers for people and communion is taken at the altar. They do not follow the structure of the basil or cyril liturgy no but the bible declares in the new testament i forget be it timothy or corinthians to take the blood and body of christ and celebrate this often. they do believe that it becomes the body and blood of our lord and only those who have been baptized can recieve it.
As far as denomination I will have to check. All I've heard them call themselves is Christian.
u know what, EVERY church has a specific set of beliefs, even if they pretend they don't. i honestly believed when i was a teenager that the church i was in then had no denomination. maybe some new age believers and bahais have no set beliefs, they say, just believe what you want and pray to whatever is in your head and you are welcome to join with us. this is not at all the Christian belief.
so if your church REALLY has no set belief or denomination, then they are actually not Christian. so, if they are Christian, it means they have some set beliefs. if they state these beliefs, then they are honest and sincere protestants, and you can check out what differences there are with orthodox beliefs.
for example, the lutheran church believes in baby baptism, believes the priest helps guide the people and believes the bread and wine in Holy Communion become the Body and Blood of our Lord. in this way they are similar to the orthodox church. they also believe in female bishops, that we don't need help from people who lived before 1500 to understand the Bible (i.e. the church fathers) and several other things that are not orthodox. so if you join a lutheran church, you know what you are signing up to.
if they don't state these beliefs and don't answer your questions, then this is a problem. if you just join in with people without knowing if they believe the same as you, then you can be very easily confused. the church i went to actually had some dangerous beliefs, eg. you had to do whatever the pastor said, and no-one had authority to challenge that. the pastors could preach whatever they wanted, and although some of the preaching was good, some of it was crazy.
you wouldn't go to a mechanic to check out your heart problem, so why do you leave your soul with someone whose qualifications you are unsure of?
so please be careful, mormons and jehovah's witnesses also call themselves Christians and they may be very nice people, but you won't find salvation with them. may God guide you and your family.
What is the name of the church and what is its website?
There are many of us here with a great deal of experience of protestantism and the website will show what sort of protestant congregation it is.
I know of no protestant church apart from traditional Lutherans who believe that the bread and wine truly and actually become the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. The other reformed groups denied the physical presence of the body and blood of our Lord, as do all evangelicals.
Read Numbers 16 and see what happened to Korah and his followers when he tore down the priesthood. I am assuming this is some sort of new charismatic style church that rejects even other protestants and has chose to try and follow the bible literally. Just another in a long line of rejecting those that preceed them.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=10598.msg130352#msg130352 date=1297337820] how easy it is to make mistakes when we are proud and we only pray so God can confirm what we already decided. may God protect us from this pride.
Yes! This was the point I was trying to make by retelling my story, though you expressed it much more eloquently than I did. :)
Being convinced of something intellectually is not necessarily the same as following the will of God. God is not the author of confusion, so I find it very hard to believe that He would call one person to a Protestant church, another to a Catholic church, another to Islam, etc., though in my case I am not opposed to the idea that He may have led me to through the Catholic Church so that I could be better prepared to approach His Church: The Orthodox Church. (Other Protestant-to-Catholic-to-Orthodox Christians have told me the same thing about their journey to the Orthodox faith.)
excuse me mabsoota i didnt say they didnt have a set of beliefs please be careful of what i said before you speak and post. what you wrote is wrong in its entirety at its target. go tell someone else because the church never says read and believe and thats it.
The page that describes the beliefs of the protestant group you have joined shows clearly that they do not believe in the sacraments.
Here is what is said:
Water Baptism: We believe in water baptism by immersion in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is a sacrament for the church, a public witness of faith of the believer who has accepted Jesus as their Savior.
The Lord's Supper: We believe that the Lord's Supper is a sacrament for the Church, of which the members of the congregation who have already been baptized in water as a symbol of our union with Christ, a reminder of his suffering and death and an announcement of his imminent return.
Just calling something a sacrament does not make it one. Very clearly indeed the belief is stated that baptism is a public witness of faith, and the Lord's Supper is a reminder of his suffering and death.
This is not the true eucharist. This is not the true baptism. Those who receive baptism in this group are not baptised into the Church, and those who receive communion, however well meaning, are not receiving the body and blood of Christ for salvation. I was taught exactly the same things in my own protestant congregation. They are not the truth.
The words of your lady pastor and her husband describe very clearly what they mean by these terms and it is not what the Church teaches. It is not what Christianity teaches.
it is exactly what the bible says and you said it does not baptize you into the church it is not supposed to baptize you into the church. have you lost the meaning of baptism? why baptism was done why jesus made john the baptist baptize him in the lake. This baptism was to be born again into Christ. To recieve the Holy Spirit. Baptisms are performed the way the bible says. why conform the bible? it is sin to add or take away from the Word of God.
sorry priest of the orthodox church does not come up in the bible. i apologize for the confusion there. please reference your declarations. thank you.
[quote author=Rubina maana link=topic=10598.msg130407#msg130407 date=1297375644] it is exactly what the bible says and you said it does not baptize you into the church it is not supposed to baptize you into the church. have you lost the meaning of baptism? why baptism was done why jesus made john the baptist baptize him in the lake. This baptism was to be born again into Christ. To recieve the Holy Spirit. Baptisms are performed the way the bible says. why conform the bible? it is sin to add or take away from the Word of God.
sorry priest of the orthodox church does not come up in the bible. i apologize for the confusion there. please reference your declarations. thank you.
can i, as a believer in the Bible, take anyone who wants to be a Christian and immerse him into water, "baptizing him", and that makes him baptized and within the church now?
How can someone who is not in the Church baptise someone into the Church? The Orthodox Church has been the Church since the beginning. The group you have joined started in 1988 or sometime around then. It teaches straightforward charismatic protestant doctrines. It DOES NOT believe in baptism for the remission of sins and eternal life. It believes only in a believers baptism as an act of witness.
Anyone can perform a baptism in the way described in the Bible, but if they are not members of the Church then they cannot baptise a person into the Church. And if they do not believe what the Church has always taught then they cannot baptise a person into the Church. If you are not a member of the Church, then you are not a member of Christ, because the Church, the Orthodox Church, is His body. His body was not suddenly formed in 1988.
The Bible says clearly that we must be baptised to be saved. Your pastors say clearly that we are not baptised to be saved.
no you cant. and this church has a different hierarchy. this church does not believe that anyone can say come i believe let me baptise you.
We are all the body of Christ:
Humble Service in the Body of Christ 3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a] faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
Walk in Unity 1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.
Do they accept the Sacrament of Priesthood? How about those of Marriage, Chrismation, Confession, Anointing of the Sick? Do they accept Holy Tradition? Do they accept the intercessions of Saints? Do they consider the Theotokos, an ever virgin? Do they have liturgies? Do they accept Icons? Do they believe in Sola Scriptura and Faith alone. Do they have Bishops in the Orthodox sense?
If the answer is no to even one of these questions then there is a problem, and I say this out of love, but why would you join a faulty gathering? I recommended reading HH Pope Shenouda's book Comparative Theology which is here
Do they partake of mass slayings of the spirit and speaking in tongues? Do they have women priests? If the answer is yes, then there is a major problem. These charismatic practices are works done directly by the devil.
Please my sister, understand. When we say we have the correct belief, this is not out of pride in ourselves. It is stating a fact that even St. Paul proclaims in saying: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
I see on the site that it says:
Creemos que el bautismo en el Espíritu Santo es una experiencia espiritual diferente a la salvación y posterior al nuevo nacimiento en Cristo. La manifestación de que se ha recibido es hablar en otras lenguas, no por propio impulso del hombre, sino bajo la dirección del Espíritu Santo. Es dado para capacitar al creyente en el cumplimiento de la Gran Comisión.
This is very dangerous. Please my sister heed my words which I say out of love, these teachings are incorrect! Please understand, we are not here to say how much better, we as people are than everyone else. We are here to say that we have the true faith. This is not pride (incorrect pride), just as it isn't pride when we say Christianity is the sole truth. We don't go around saying that Islam is also correct, and we don't seek to unite with Jehovah's witnesses, do we?
[quote author=Rubina maana link=topic=10598.msg130407#msg130407 date=1297375644] it is exactly what the bible says and you said it does not baptize you into the church it is not supposed to baptize you into the church. have you lost the meaning of baptism? why baptism was done why jesus made john the baptist baptize him in the lake. This baptism was to be born again into Christ. To recieve the Holy Spirit. Baptisms are performed the way the bible says. why conform the bible? it is sin to add or take away from the Word of God.
sorry priest of the orthodox church does not come up in the bible. i apologize for the confusion there. please reference your declarations. thank you.
Your proclaimation of the bible alone is protestant in itself and is found NOWHERE in the bible. It is called sola scriptura and was invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century, having never existed or been believed by anyone up until that point. So you are pushing a man made belief upon us and criticizing us for not following it, it is no more than 500 years old, has nothing to do with Christ nor the apostles, why would we follow sola scriptura. John 5:39 states: "You search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life." This is coming from the mouth of Christ to the pharisees because they had perverted the meaning of prophecy and the scriptures. So in one of the very few places Christ even mentions scripture, it is not in support of your "the bible as the only authority".
One thing Christ does make clear is His church in Mt. 16:18 "Upon this rock I will found My church that even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." So clearly His church MUST still be here from then to now, what protestant church can trace itself back to Christ through the apostles? None. You may say, the word church actually means people. Since you dont speak Koine Greek, as you stated you know three languages, I will inform you that the word "church" is phonetically said as "ekklesia" and is a threefold definition: The Doctrine, The Building, The People. For instance many protestants say they dont like the Catholic Church, does this mean they dont like the people and the people only? No of course not, it means the church as in the belief system. So those same protestant contradict themselves on this very definition. Not only that the word "it" in Greek, the last word in Mt 16:18, is "autos" which is singular and referring to the subject "ekklesia" and makes no sense whatsoever if the meaning of "ekklesia" is people, the proper word to use for people would be "laos" and then referring to it as singular would make sense.
Therefore we know there must be a church that has existed since the time of Christ. NOT ONE single protestant church can qualify as being this church. On that basis alone no self respecting "Christian" should take protestantism worth a grain of salt. It is an invention of the reformation, from the mind of men and not of God. If people insist on coming here to push their protestant garbage, know that I am going to be right there to expose every word you type. Protestantism disgusts me and has no business on this site other than to learn about Orthodoxy to possibly convert. Otherwise keep your garbage on your own trashy websites.
your rudeness is not christian at all. every denomination thinks their in the right faith and stands by it because everyone is taught the same words which teaches watch for false prophecies.
I am ashamed for the rest of those who you interact with or lead. Let someone call your beliefs garbage. You discourage those around you from coming on the blog. God wants you to bring souls to Him and you are not doing your duty as his soldier. Anba Athanasious once said"Silence is wisdom. Slow to speak." I would watch what you say before you say it.
You may declare yourself orthodox or christian or both but i say to you assuredly that if you do not know the truth believe the truth and live the truth. If you do not do as God commands if you are not loving if you are arrogant and rude Christ will not acknowledge you His child for you disgrace Him.
Thank you anba bola for your post I thank you for your kind words. Like I said earlier though I know what I believe and I know whom I seek. Much of what you stated is not entirely correct but like i posted earlier i have an exam tomorrow.
God bless you all and may He reveal Himself in your lives. May He have mercy on us all.
Perhaps after your exams you can pm me or post here and we can sort out any difficulties with my last post. Also see my post in the other thread where this subject is being discussed (about prayer meetings).
Rubina maana, Ioannes had enough experience with protestants. If i am not mistaken, i even think personal experience in his own life. He is against protestant belief in every way possible. he will always sound harsh and truthful with no sugar-coated words.
[quote author=Rubina maana link=topic=10598.msg130245#msg130245 date=1297281876] first of all geomike, one thing i learned in the orthodox church is the BIBLE IS ONE. YOU CAN NOT LEARN ONE VERSE SEPARATE FROM ANOTHER. THE BIBLE IS ONE WORD THAT GOES TOGETHER. A VERSE IN DEUTRONOMY MAY COINCIDE WITH A VERSE IN MATTHEW, IN FACT AT MOST TIMES THEY DO. TALK TO YOU FATHER OF CONFESSION ABOUT THIS. IT IS WRONG TE SEPARATE THE BOOKS.
1. I was explaining what the Protestants do. That is how they came up with the theory of the Rapture. It seems you misread my post or my itouch just messed up my wording. Don't think i just make up things, because i am really sensitive about this subject. I have been at a protestant school for 11 years. Trust me, i know pretty much everything about protestants.
2. The orthodox do believe the Bible is one. I was saying that we also use the writings of the church fathers to understand them fully.
3. I have no idea about "it's wrong to separate the books" means. I never said to separate them, i was saying that the protestants took one verse from one book (BOOK OF THE BIBLE!) and joined it with another verse in another book (BOOK OF THE BIBLE!). I don't know what's wrong Rubinna maana, you seem to not be orthodox yourself, plus you were speaking spanish so are you really in a position to teach me about orthodox?
Rubina, your response to my previous post is what I like to call the "protestant shuffle". Protestants, when confronted with undeniable truths, find all sorts of ways to discredit the person speaking it. You are unable to prove the legitimacy of your belief system, so instead of actually addressing the question, you attack my character or how I speak. Is it ok to say that Jehovah Witness beliefs are garbage? Of course it is, because they are. This does not mean I consider the people to be garbage, quite the opposite actually, I find them to be very zealous and very nice people. If you have a problem with how I speak then that is more of a reflection on you rather than me, you said my words were un-Christian, yet lack the very love in yours that you say I am void of.
It would be more sensible to go ahead and answer the questions put forth as opposed to assaulting my character, then again there is no way to prove the legitimacy of your church, and instead of just accepting truth when confronted with it, you resorted to ad hominim attacks. What I fail to grasp is why you are even here. What is your purpose for being here? To try and convince us that an invented religion and invented beliefs that masks as being Christian, is the same thing as the true apostolic faith? Its not, and never will be. Your beliefs are not only garbage, they are fake and superficial. I cannot hinder you from coming to the true Church, Christ tells us that no one can come to Him unless His father wills is, therefore if it is His will, how can I stop you? I am not sorry for anything I have said to you because everything I have said is true.
DO NOT address me again unless you have an answer to my previous post on the legitimacy of your church. If you cannot establish and apostolic succession you have no business discussing any of this.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=10598.msg130457#msg130457 date=1297439194] plus you were speaking spanish so are you really in a position to teach me about orthodox?
What do you mean by this, Geomike? I don't want to read too much into one short off-hand comment, but as a Spanish-speaking person it does make me a little bit uncomfortable. You can't speak Spanish and be Orthodox? This must be news to the Coptic churches in Mexico and Bolivia (not to mention other Orthodox churches in Mexico, Chile, Argentina, etc). :-\
dzrhemi, I agree. I am confused by geomikes statment. I mean like thousands of Mayans recently converted to Orthodoxy, does it make them illegitimate because they speak spanish.
[quote author=servant33 link=topic=10598.msg130517#msg130517 date=1297488129] Sigh, is this gonna be one of those threads that gets out of hand and the moderator has to close it?
God bless you Rubina maana and may God guide you in the search for the true faith -- and may God guide us all in this controversial issue.
Yeah. I would think that stating the truth that Protestantism and Orthodoxy don't mix (and that nobody should be trying to mix them) is probably the least controversial statement possible, particularly on this Orthodox message board.
Comments
not that he was biased in any way of course...
strangely, the patriarch of rome wanted to be in charge too.
of course, he wasn't biased either...
strange how 'God' told them both something different!
;)
how easy it is to make mistakes when we are proud and we only pray so God can confirm what we already decided.
may God protect us from this pride.
As far as denomination I will have to check. All I've heard them call themselves is Christian.
i honestly believed when i was a teenager that the church i was in then had no denomination.
maybe some new age believers and bahais have no set beliefs, they say, just believe what you want and pray to whatever is in your head and you are welcome to join with us. this is not at all the Christian belief.
so if your church REALLY has no set belief or denomination, then they are actually not Christian.
so, if they are Christian, it means they have some set beliefs. if they state these beliefs, then they are honest and sincere protestants, and you can check out what differences there are with orthodox beliefs.
for example, the lutheran church believes in baby baptism, believes the priest helps guide the people and believes the bread and wine in Holy Communion become the Body and Blood of our Lord. in this way they are similar to the orthodox church. they also believe in female bishops, that we don't need help from people who lived before 1500 to understand the Bible (i.e. the church fathers) and several other things that are not orthodox.
so if you join a lutheran church, you know what you are signing up to.
if they don't state these beliefs and don't answer your questions, then this is a problem. if you just join in with people without knowing if they believe the same as you, then you can be very easily confused.
the church i went to actually had some dangerous beliefs, eg. you had to do whatever the pastor said, and no-one had authority to challenge that. the pastors could preach whatever they wanted, and although some of the preaching was good, some of it was crazy.
you wouldn't go to a mechanic to check out your heart problem, so why do you leave your soul with someone whose qualifications you are unsure of?
so please be careful, mormons and jehovah's witnesses also call themselves Christians and they may be very nice people, but you won't find salvation with them.
may God guide you and your family.
There are many of us here with a great deal of experience of protestantism and the website will show what sort of protestant congregation it is.
I know of no protestant church apart from traditional Lutherans who believe that the bread and wine truly and actually become the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. The other reformed groups denied the physical presence of the body and blood of our Lord, as do all evangelicals.
how easy it is to make mistakes when we are proud and we only pray so God can confirm what we already decided.
may God protect us from this pride.
Yes! This was the point I was trying to make by retelling my story, though you expressed it much more eloquently than I did. :)
Being convinced of something intellectually is not necessarily the same as following the will of God. God is not the author of confusion, so I find it very hard to believe that He would call one person to a Protestant church, another to a Catholic church, another to Islam, etc., though in my case I am not opposed to the idea that He may have led me to through the Catholic Church so that I could be better prepared to approach His Church: The Orthodox Church. (Other Protestant-to-Catholic-to-Orthodox Christians have told me the same thing about their journey to the Orthodox faith.)
http://campofjehovah.com/
I speak three languages, English ARabic and Spanish the website is in spanish most sermons have english translators if it helps you.
Here is what is said:
Water Baptism: We believe in water baptism by immersion in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is a sacrament for the church, a public witness of faith of the believer who has accepted Jesus as their Savior.
The Lord's Supper: We believe that the Lord's Supper is a sacrament for the Church, of which the members of the congregation who have already been baptized in water as a symbol of our union with Christ, a reminder of his suffering and death and an announcement of his imminent return.
Just calling something a sacrament does not make it one. Very clearly indeed the belief is stated that baptism is a public witness of faith, and the Lord's Supper is a reminder of his suffering and death.
This is not the true eucharist. This is not the true baptism. Those who receive baptism in this group are not baptised into the Church, and those who receive communion, however well meaning, are not receiving the body and blood of Christ for salvation. I was taught exactly the same things in my own protestant congregation. They are not the truth.
The words of your lady pastor and her husband describe very clearly what they mean by these terms and it is not what the Church teaches. It is not what Christianity teaches.
sorry priest of the orthodox church does not come up in the bible. i apologize for the confusion there. please reference your declarations. thank you.
it is exactly what the bible says and you said it does not baptize you into the church it is not supposed to baptize you into the church. have you lost the meaning of baptism? why baptism was done why jesus made john the baptist baptize him in the lake. This baptism was to be born again into Christ. To recieve the Holy Spirit. Baptisms are performed the way the bible says. why conform the bible? it is sin to add or take away from the Word of God.
sorry priest of the orthodox church does not come up in the bible. i apologize for the confusion there. please reference your declarations. thank you.
can i, as a believer in the Bible, take anyone who wants to be a Christian and immerse him into water, "baptizing him", and that makes him baptized and within the church now?
How can someone who is not in the Church baptise someone into the Church? The Orthodox Church has been the Church since the beginning. The group you have joined started in 1988 or sometime around then. It teaches straightforward charismatic protestant doctrines. It DOES NOT believe in baptism for the remission of sins and eternal life. It believes only in a believers baptism as an act of witness.
Anyone can perform a baptism in the way described in the Bible, but if they are not members of the Church then they cannot baptise a person into the Church. And if they do not believe what the Church has always taught then they cannot baptise a person into the Church. If you are not a member of the Church, then you are not a member of Christ, because the Church, the Orthodox Church, is His body. His body was not suddenly formed in 1988.
The Bible says clearly that we must be baptised to be saved. Your pastors say clearly that we are not baptised to be saved.
and this church has a different hierarchy.
this church does not believe that anyone can say come i believe let me baptise you.
We are all the body of Christ:
Humble Service in the Body of Christ
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a] faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
Walk in Unity
1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.
Do they accept the Sacrament of Priesthood? How about those of Marriage, Chrismation, Confession, Anointing of the Sick? Do they accept Holy Tradition? Do they accept the intercessions of Saints? Do they consider the Theotokos, an ever virgin? Do they have liturgies? Do they accept Icons? Do they believe in Sola Scriptura and Faith alone. Do they have Bishops in the Orthodox sense?
If the answer is no to even one of these questions then there is a problem, and I say this out of love, but why would you join a faulty gathering? I recommended reading HH Pope Shenouda's book Comparative Theology which is here
Do they partake of mass slayings of the spirit and speaking in tongues? Do they have women priests?
If the answer is yes, then there is a major problem. These charismatic practices are works done directly by the devil.
Please my sister, understand. When we say we have the correct belief, this is not out of pride in ourselves. It is stating a fact that even St. Paul proclaims in saying: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
I see on the site that it says: This is very dangerous. Please my sister heed my words which I say out of love, these teachings are incorrect! Please understand, we are not here to say how much better, we as people are than everyone else. We are here to say that we have the true faith. This is not pride (incorrect pride), just as it isn't pride when we say Christianity is the sole truth. We don't go around saying that Islam is also correct, and we don't seek to unite with Jehovah's witnesses, do we?
Please consider my words,
Anba Bola
it is exactly what the bible says and you said it does not baptize you into the church it is not supposed to baptize you into the church. have you lost the meaning of baptism? why baptism was done why jesus made john the baptist baptize him in the lake. This baptism was to be born again into Christ. To recieve the Holy Spirit. Baptisms are performed the way the bible says. why conform the bible? it is sin to add or take away from the Word of God.
sorry priest of the orthodox church does not come up in the bible. i apologize for the confusion there. please reference your declarations. thank you.
Your proclaimation of the bible alone is protestant in itself and is found NOWHERE in the bible. It is called sola scriptura and was invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century, having never existed or been believed by anyone up until that point. So you are pushing a man made belief upon us and criticizing us for not following it, it is no more than 500 years old, has nothing to do with Christ nor the apostles, why would we follow sola scriptura. John 5:39 states: "You search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life." This is coming from the mouth of Christ to the pharisees because they had perverted the meaning of prophecy and the scriptures. So in one of the very few places Christ even mentions scripture, it is not in support of your "the bible as the only authority".
One thing Christ does make clear is His church in Mt. 16:18 "Upon this rock I will found My church that even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." So clearly His church MUST still be here from then to now, what protestant church can trace itself back to Christ through the apostles? None. You may say, the word church actually means people. Since you dont speak Koine Greek, as you stated you know three languages, I will inform you that the word "church" is phonetically said as "ekklesia" and is a threefold definition: The Doctrine, The Building, The People. For instance many protestants say they dont like the Catholic Church, does this mean they dont like the people and the people only? No of course not, it means the church as in the belief system. So those same protestant contradict themselves on this very definition. Not only that the word "it" in Greek, the last word in Mt 16:18, is "autos" which is singular and referring to the subject "ekklesia" and makes no sense whatsoever if the meaning of "ekklesia" is people, the proper word to use for people would be "laos" and then referring to it as singular would make sense.
Therefore we know there must be a church that has existed since the time of Christ. NOT ONE single protestant church can qualify as being this church. On that basis alone no self respecting "Christian" should take protestantism worth a grain of salt. It is an invention of the reformation, from the mind of men and not of God. If people insist on coming here to push their protestant garbage, know that I am going to be right there to expose every word you type. Protestantism disgusts me and has no business on this site other than to learn about Orthodoxy to possibly convert. Otherwise keep your garbage on your own trashy websites.
your rudeness is not christian at all. every denomination thinks their in the right faith and stands by it because everyone is taught the same words which teaches watch for false prophecies.
I am ashamed for the rest of those who you interact with or lead. Let someone call your beliefs garbage. You discourage those around you from coming on the blog. God wants you to bring souls to Him and you are not doing your duty as his soldier. Anba Athanasious once said"Silence is wisdom. Slow to speak." I would watch what you say before you say it.
You may declare yourself orthodox or christian or both but i say to you assuredly that if you do not know the truth believe the truth and live the truth. If you do not do as God commands if you are not loving if you are arrogant and rude Christ will not acknowledge you His child for you disgrace Him.
Thank you anba bola for your post I thank you for your kind words. Like I said earlier though I know what I believe and I know whom I seek. Much of what you stated is not entirely correct but like i posted earlier i have an exam tomorrow.
God bless you all and may He reveal Himself in your lives. May He have mercy on us all.
Pleas pray for me as I am facing temptations
first of all geomike, one thing i learned in the orthodox church is the BIBLE IS ONE. YOU CAN NOT LEARN ONE VERSE SEPARATE FROM ANOTHER. THE BIBLE IS ONE WORD THAT GOES TOGETHER. A VERSE IN DEUTRONOMY MAY COINCIDE WITH A VERSE IN MATTHEW, IN FACT AT MOST TIMES THEY DO. TALK TO YOU FATHER OF CONFESSION ABOUT THIS. IT IS WRONG TE SEPARATE THE BOOKS.
1. I was explaining what the Protestants do. That is how they came up with the theory of the Rapture. It seems you misread my post or my itouch just messed up my wording. Don't think i just make up things, because i am really sensitive about this subject. I have been at a protestant school for 11 years. Trust me, i know pretty much everything about protestants.
2. The orthodox do believe the Bible is one. I was saying that we also use the writings of the church fathers to understand them fully.
3. I have no idea about "it's wrong to separate the books" means. I never said to separate them, i was saying that the protestants took one verse from one book (BOOK OF THE BIBLE!) and joined it with another verse in another book (BOOK OF THE BIBLE!). I don't know what's wrong Rubinna maana, you seem to not be orthodox yourself, plus you were speaking spanish so are you really in a position to teach me about orthodox?
It would be more sensible to go ahead and answer the questions put forth as opposed to assaulting my character, then again there is no way to prove the legitimacy of your church, and instead of just accepting truth when confronted with it, you resorted to ad hominim attacks. What I fail to grasp is why you are even here. What is your purpose for being here? To try and convince us that an invented religion and invented beliefs that masks as being Christian, is the same thing as the true apostolic faith? Its not, and never will be. Your beliefs are not only garbage, they are fake and superficial. I cannot hinder you from coming to the true Church, Christ tells us that no one can come to Him unless His father wills is, therefore if it is His will, how can I stop you? I am not sorry for anything I have said to you because everything I have said is true.
DO NOT address me again unless you have an answer to my previous post on the legitimacy of your church. If you cannot establish and apostolic succession you have no business discussing any of this.
plus you were speaking spanish so are you really in a position to teach me about orthodox?
What do you mean by this, Geomike? I don't want to read too much into one short off-hand comment, but as a Spanish-speaking person it does make me a little bit uncomfortable. You can't speak Spanish and be Orthodox? This must be news to the Coptic churches in Mexico and Bolivia (not to mention other Orthodox churches in Mexico, Chile, Argentina, etc). :-\
God bless you Rubina maana and may God guide you in the search for the true faith -- and may God guide us all in this controversial issue.
Sigh, is this gonna be one of those threads that gets out of hand and the moderator has to close it?
God bless you Rubina maana and may God guide you in the search for the true faith -- and may God guide us all in this controversial issue.
Why is this controversial?