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why the prayer meeting?
ok... sometimes in my church we hold these prayer meetings. People pray outloud and everyone gets a turn.
I don't get why we pray outloud... after sundayschool etc.
It seems to me sometimes like its a way to show off your "prayer skills" lol.
So what is the purpose of praying outloud individually? whats wrong if we pray to God on our own?
I don't get why we pray outloud... after sundayschool etc.
It seems to me sometimes like its a way to show off your "prayer skills" lol.
So what is the purpose of praying outloud individually? whats wrong if we pray to God on our own?
Comments
ok... sometimes in my church we hold these prayer meetings. People pray outloud and everyone gets a turn.
I don't get why we pray outloud... after sundayschool etc.
It seems to me sometimes like its a way to show off your "prayer skills" lol.
So what is the purpose of praying outloud individually? whats wrong if we pray to God on our own?
Lol, mad question.
I never agree to pray, as a kid and even until now I always shake my said and say no LOL... I think this is not right however.
One reason I think we pray out loud or let kids pray out loud is so that we can learn from others and how to pray, it teaches us. Even when you listen to little kids pray, they may be much deeper than someone older sometimes or they don't forget the "small" details like older people might and vice versa.
Another thing I believe is that when we pray out loud, we pray on behalf of everyone else in the room also. (I think this is the main reason why I always say NO lol).
The more prayers, the merrier.
There's nothing wrong with praying to God on your own.. I think praying out loud should be optional.
Cheers
[quote author=coptic boy777 link=topic=10532.msg127969#msg127969 date=1295891044]
ok... sometimes in my church we hold these prayer meetings. People pray outloud and everyone gets a turn.
I don't get why we pray outloud... after sundayschool etc.
It seems to me sometimes like its a way to show off your "prayer skills" lol.
So what is the purpose of praying outloud individually? whats wrong if we pray to God on our own?
Lol, mad question.
I never agree to pray, as a kid and even until now I always shake my said and say no LOL... I think this is not right however.
One reason I think we pray out loud or let kids pray out loud is so that we can learn from others and how to pray, it teaches us. Even when you listen to little kids pray, they may be much deeper than someone older sometimes or they don't forget the "small" details like older people might and vice versa.
Another thing I believe is that when we pray out loud, we pray on behalf of everyone else in the room also. (I think this is the main reason why I always say NO lol).
The more prayers, the merrier.
There's nothing wrong with praying to God on your own.. I think praying out loud should be optional.
Cheers
I see your point, but i dont necessarily learn anything from hearing people pray? as to praying on behalf of people... I think prayer should be a personal thing, rather than a general thing on behalf of someone else.
Prayer is stronger out loud. Also, one can stay focused and not doze off.
ummm... please explain how is it stronger outloud? and i think its the opposite, when you're around people its more tempting to talk to them and to forget about the prayer. As humans, we instinctively socialize
(a bit a sarcasm, not to be offensive, but to try to illustrate a point) :)
like maybe u think u r not worthy to pray when u hear a long beautiful prayer from a priest.
then someone says a tiny prayer, like 'God i love you, help me to bring you glory and love my enemies' and u think, hey, i could do that too!
I agree we should start praying liturgy silently too...
(a bit a sarcasm, not to be offensive, but to try to illustrate a point) :)
way too cocky for that statement because in liturgy we are all praying the same prayer, same for agbeya and tasbeha, however, when one person prays at a time its a personal prayer that everyone hears. its not a "united" prayer... get the difference?
[quote author=jshouk link=topic=10532.msg127980#msg127980 date=1295896915]
I agree we should start praying liturgy silently too...
(a bit a sarcasm, not to be offensive, but to try to illustrate a point) :)
way too ****y for that statement because in liturgy we are all praying the same prayer, same for agbeya and tasbeha, however, when one person prays at a time its a personal prayer that everyone hears. its not a "united" prayer... get the difference?
whoa!!! coky...
Jshouk, you stole the words right out of my mouth.
same to you^^^
Even when you listen to little kids pray, they may be much deeper than someone older sometimes or they don't forget the "small" details like older people might and vice versa.
I had a kid who thanked God for his fruits and vegetables in his prayer.
this is not done in the orthodox church or any meetings i've been too but let me tell you something i've done with the youth group that i teach.
YES we pray out loud. We praise and worship God. WE give Him glory and sing to him at the top of our lungs, but with love so we don't sound as clanging cymbals because David says in his psalms that our praise and worship is incense to Him.
We also pray out loud. Now I understand what you mean and how you may feel about praying out loud and I think one thing thats wrong is we don't interact. When we pray , one person prays out loud first right, as they are praying the others should also be saying Amen and Yes. We should also be following what they say to God. Each of our individual prayers should rise to Jesus as a group prayer. One may say thank you my God for giving your only begotten son my God and I will say as they pray Yes thank you Jesus out loud. These prayers are incense. Remember in psalms it states that what we say to Him doesnt just rise to the heavens, he doesnt just hear it but HE GIVES US HIS EARS AND HEARS OUR WORDS.
Jesus died on the cross and prayed out loud to heal those that were sick. Is it not the minimal that we show God our gratitude out loud? I'm sure he's worth more but he created that vocal box of your he wants to hear it. FROM YOUR HEART.
One thing thats helped me stop being uncomfortable is I told God " I'm sorry God because I don't know why I should pray out loud. I don't know what I'll say if someone will say something better. God I want to give you all you deserve. I can do nothing without you Jesus please give me wisdom and strength and the heart of your soldier to pray to you the way you want me to pray"
It'll come. Believe me people don't hear that oh thats Mike (example) praying hes not doing it right. They should be listening and praying along. Remember also that Jesus did not leave us but gave us the Holy Spirit those words that we pray should be through the Spirit.
DONT RANK SOMEONE WHILE THEY PRAY. THAT IS NOT WHAT PRAYER IS FOR. THERE ARE NO PRAYER SKILLS.
Which country is it in?
it is not protestant, i thought i placed that in the other post. it is not orthodox. i do not go to the orthodox church anymore i go to a christian church. they are not protestant and do not associate themselves with being protestant.
also copticboy 777, one of the youth leaders at my church made a good point the other day. when your with your friends and you talk to them you don't whisper you talk to them with your voice. God is your ultimate and best friend. Talk to Him. He's worth more than the vocal chords he placed within you right or wrong?
Many groups do not describe themselves as Protestant but they all derive from the Protestant movement.
God is not our friend. He is our God, our Lord, our King, our Heavenly Father. We address Him accordingly. With great love and with great respect. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son and Word of God, taught us how to pray.
Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.....
There is no sense in this prayer that God is our buddy. He is not. Therefore it is irrelevant how we talk to our friends. As Orthodox Christians we learn to address our heartfelt needs and concerns to God. But we are not taught to sit in a group and all pray off the top of our heads. We pray the prayers of the Church, making them our own, because they teach us to pray properly, and they structure our prayers when we are facing various trials and tribulations.
There is nothing wrong with the Orthodox Christian addressing extempore prayer to God, but it is always to be in the forms and according to the substance of the Orthodox prayers of the Church. So we begin with the Agpeya and make it our own before we convince ourselves that our own words can exceed it in beauty and spirituality. We turn to the Psalms and make them our prayers as well. They reflect every aspect of our lives. There is a Psalm for every situation and condition.
In comparison to these sources our own words fall flat and are often very trite. I have sat through innumerable Protestant prayer meetings, even with very well meaning folk, and almost all of the prayers have been of a much lesser quality than any in the Agpeya. And this is so of all those prayers I offered in public.
Our Orthodox Fathers have been wise and kind in leaving us the gift of the Agpeya and the other prayers of the Church. It is much, much better to make these prayers our own than to try and create our own. To pray the prayers of the Church with attention is to pray with the Fathers in the best words that the best of all Christians have composed.
Father Peter
The bible does not say merely say "our Father..."
That is how we end or begin. This is what gets us to understand what to pray for. I'm sorry but God is above all and should be everyone's BEST FRIEND. HE IS OUR KING OUR LORD OUR SAVIOUR AND OUR FATHER. Father, He is our Father. When was the last time you told God, God I love you I thank you for everything you've done for all the blessings you've given me. I rarely here an orthodox tell God, I love you God. Yet God loved us so much.
God knows all things but he wants to hear it from us. Those words in the agpeya i don't mind if they are start off points but you have half the congregation just reading and reciting saying i memorized it im going to heaven. God wants OUR HEARTS, OUR ACTIONS. not our words that we simply utter.
We have to pray and feel and know and understand he is God. What is prayer without the understanding? nothing.
It does not matter if you disagree with the teaching of the Church, or if I do. The teaching of the Church is the standard by which we are all measured. And if we disagree with the teaching of the Church then our opinion is worthless.
It seems very judgemental of you to assert that ...
half the congregation are just reading and reciting saying i memorized it im going to heaven
You are entitled to disagree with the teaching of the Church, but when we do so we place ourselves outside the Church.
You say that you have rarely heard an Orthodox tell God that they love Him? Again, how judgemental. Do you know people's hearts?
I am concerned that you have adopted entirely Protestant ideas. You are free to do so. But they are not Orthodox at all. And you justify your own opinion by even suggesting that Coptic Orthodox Christians only pray with words. I am afraid that you have not begun to understand the depths of Orthodox spirituality.
When was the last time you told God, God I love you I thank you for everything you've done for all the blessings you've given me.
Let me reply, as most here will reply, I pray such words several times each day. If you knew the Agpeya well then you would know how often we pray such sentiments.
O Master, Lord, God the Almighty, the Father of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, we thank You for every condition, concerning every condition, and in every condition, for You have covered us, helped us, guarded us, accepted us unto You, spared us, supported us, and brought us to this hour.
And I am sure also that most here address such sentiments spontaneously through each day as well. That does not mean that we need to sit in a group making up public prayers in a circle.
Let me ask you whether you still address prayers to the beloved Virgin Mary? Let me ask you if you believe that the bread and wine on the Orthodox altar truly become the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ for remission of sins and eternal life? And if you believe that then what are you receiving at the Protestant communion where there is no priest and no liturgy?
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,10598.msg130368.html#msg130368
i agree that it's very important we pray sincerely, not just repeating words, however, we also need to check out who we are praying with and what the words meant to them. (see my post in the other thread).
when i was at university, i told everyone i fully agreed with the hippy slogan 'make love not war'. i told everyone i was a hippy and loved wearing baggy clothes. i understood that the hippies loved people in the same way the Christians did, by forgiving always and caring for each other.
i didn't realise it was all about having sex with your friends and colleagues! :o
i had totally misunderstood what they meant as i didn't check out their beliefs before identifying with them!
;)
What steps should one take if he or she wanted to rejoin the Orthodox Church? Would it be the same as excommunication? Can excommunication be restored?
Excommunication is a last measure to hopefully bring a person to their senses.
Generally, it can be reversed if the person is penitent. That is indeed one of the aims of the excommunication in the first place.
If someone is on a football or other team, and keeps disrupting the team, leading others to skip practice, encourages bad behaviour, doesn't play with sportsmanship, and even contacts other coaches about playing for them, then the Coach might well discipline that person, give them many opportunities to correct their attitude, but EVENTUALLY might say, 'Sorry, you are OFF the team'. Now if the player realises what a fool he has been and comes back and apologises to the Coach and to the team, and promises to change his attitude and behaviour, then the Coach might decide to allow him back on the team as a probationary member, proving by his commitment that he really is a different person. But if he goes back to the same damaging behavior and attitudes then the Coach might throw him off the team and not let him back again.
Attending and participating in communion at a protestant meeting is a very serious matter indeed. Regular attendance at any protestant meetings without the permission and knowledge of a person's priest is also a very serious matter indeed.
Father Peter
Yes I know the agpeya, know it entirely and know the words. Those words are not your own. They have been generated and to pray like that is monotone. Where is the love for Him. Those genuine words for Him. Where is the Holy Spirit?
You may have your own opinion or judgement of me I think it's sad this separation of denominations. The Lord says He is looking for His people. Do you then say that everyone who is not Orthodox is not saved? Simply clearly yes or no? Because the bible is clear and please let me make it clear that any bible you may find whatever translation you look at even the orthodox study bible which i have, does not state that the orthodox people are the only ones who are saved if they are saved at all.
Are we reading the word with understanding? I spent alot of time studying the bible and still do because to know God is to continually learn more of Him because there is too much to know. and I do not talk of thin air because i've read most of h.h. pope shenouda III books and participated in many a times the bible competitions in philly. I do not speak without knowing because as when I try to speak to anyone even a muslim, i can not tell them they are wrong unless i know what they believe. one must know in order to correct, both sides of the conversation not just your own.
Let me ask you whether you still address prayers to the beloved Virgin Mary? YES I DO.
Let me ask you if you believe that the bread and wine on the Orthodox altar truly become the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ for remission of sins and eternal life? YES I DO, AND ITS FUNNY YOU WORD THIS QUESTION THIS WAY AND I THANK YOU JESUS BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO COINCIDENCES but i asked the pastor again today to make sure that what i'm saying of their beliefs is not false and she responded to me with an answer that did not omit not one word from your question. Amen.
I believe that I am partaking of the body and blood of Jesus Christ who died for my sins and for my salvation.
Yes I know the agpeya, know it entirely and know the words. Those words are not your own. They have been generated and to pray like that is monotone. Where is the love for Him. Those genuine words for Him. Where is the Holy Spirit?
You have asked your lady pastor a question about the eucharist but either you have misunderstood her answer, or she has deceived you, or the description of what they believe is not true on the website. Their own website says very clearly indeed that the Lord's Supper is a remembrance of the suffering and death of the Lord, it is not a sacrifice, it is not a true sacrament (not least because a lady pastor cannot offer a sacrament, nor a male pastor, but only a priest of the Orthodox Church). Their teaching is not different in one detail from my own background in the Plymouth Brethren.
Father Peter
The Lord says "Do this in remembrance of ME" This is sung by you and all priests during the liturgy. Why do you not follow the command? He says Do this in rememberance of me. The bread is his body and blood the wine. They ARE.
I know what I believe. I know God. I pray to God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I know that My spiritual life my relationship with the Lord is the most important. I know that My Father sent His Only begotten son to wash me of my sins and give me a chance at salvation through repentance and confession. I know that the Lord has not left me alone but said that he sends someone after Him (which is the Holy Spirit) and who is here with us and among us at all times. I thank God for all this and more and I know and will continue to read and learn and gain more knowledge in HIS WORD. because follow no man but the WORD of the Lord and you will know that there are people who call themselves Christians and then there are those who truly know believe and want to know more about the Lord.
You did not answer my question. Does a NON-ORTHODOX NOT GO TO HEAVEN?
But we do know that a non-Orthodox is not a member of the Church. You have been deceived if you think that these protestant pastors either believe that the bread and wine become truly and physically the body and blood of Christ - the website says the opposite - or that they have any authority to celebrate a true eucharist.
I would not speak so strongly to a born protestant. One who is born a protestant, as I was, and as others here were, has every hope and prospect of growing in the truth. Their seeking after God is a constant moving forward and upward if they are faithful. But those who abandon Orthodoxy are turning from light to darkness.
Once more your words are rather barbed...
...there are people who call themselves Christians and then there are those who truly know believe and want to know more about the Lord..
I cannot wish you happiness where you are. Only that the Lord might bring you to your senses and restore you. You are in a real and present danger of falling under even greater deception. We are indeed those who are proud to call themselves Christians.
i know what the Lord delights in and i know in my heart that he is saddened at this conversation.
I hope that God remains your guidance as well. That He may wash the hearts of many and teach how to love as He asks us to love and know the truth.
no one asks who is going to heaven. I am asking because the orthodox so crudely say no one if they are not orthodox.
i must say though, God Bless.
I know that I am not in darkness because I know the Lord. I am in His light.
In the hymns of the Church, the agpeya and in all of the Psalms when we pray them it is not monotone! No, not at all. Why do we sing hymns. Because we are taking these words, and we make them our own. What I mean by that is we pray them from the heart, and not as mere recited words. There is a Psalm or prayer for just about everything. If I may ask that you read the Letter of St. Athanasius interpreting the Psalms which is found here. Please read it, though it is quite long. As Fr. Peter said we are not concerned with saying who is and isn't going to heaven. This is not an Orthodox teaching. Neither does it benefit us to say, "Oh this person can't go to heaven". We know that we have the correct, undefiled faith. We know that our path is the best to heaven. That is what we know. We know that we are the true church. We know that we existed since the day of the foundation of the Church by the Apostles.
Furthermore the question of are you saved, doesn't correspond to the Orthodox teaching of salvation as a process (unless I am misunderstanding you), rather than a one time thing. In the words of the Bible:
Furthermore, we read the Bible with the understanding of the Church Fathers. Those who received the direct teachings of the Apostles and those who were gifted with interpretation. If we are each to sit there and come up with meanings for what we think the Bible says we will say stuff that those who wrote the scripture would cringe at.
For example James 1:27 says "Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."
I can reason from that there is no need to have anything organized and we can just all abandon church and visit orphans and widows instead. After all that is pure and undefiled religion, right? I could also ask the Holy Spirit to guide me, reason this on my own, and then say God gave me this interpretation. However if we take the interpretations of the Church Fathers we can understand Scriptures correctly. They were gifted by the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture and we can see that their lives were very righteous.
In the other thread you said: Here we see the danger of taking some verses on their own. The same Bible that says that also says:
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
wow! Accursed (in Greek: anethema). The unity of the Church is for the same faith (In the case of the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox). But if there are heresies being spread and preached those that do this are anethema. St. Paul doesn't say we should all just put our differences aside and become one. He even says "One Lord, one Faith, One Baptism". We do not have one faith with Protestants. We share the Faith of the Eastern Orthodox, but if there are differences in Faith we cannot become one. In fact those that have brought these heresies are to be anethema.
Also please take into consideration this verse: "And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
Satan can deceive us to believe that it is God guiding us when in fact it is Satan. He can appear as "an angel of light". He can make you think that you aren't in the darkness. Ultimately the Bible attests to the fact that wrong belief is a very big deal. Throughout the history of the Church there were schismatic groups. If they want to reunite with the one true Church they must discard any wrong belief.
In Christ,
Anba Bola
Due to my ignorance, I cannot comment on much, but Id like to share my reasoning as to why I love the agpeya so much and see it as essential if not nearly mandatory to my own spiritual life.
Prayer is essential to my relationship with God. So indeed, every word I utter to Christ must be my own since it is my time of communication with God. However, with prayer being so important to my relationship, I want to make sure I offer him the best prayer possible. I want to offer God a prayer from my heart, while it the best I can offer Him.
So the first point I keep in mind, is that when Christ told us to pray: "Our Father..." he teaches us to pray with a rule. The same words, day after day. Thus, "Our Father.." can be just as monotone as the agpeya. So, praying with a rule, although it can become monotone, does not mean the words cannot become my own, or it isn't a prayer from the heart, but when praying with a rule, I must teach myself to pray the words in meditation.
The second point, is that if I love Christ so much, I want to give Him a prayer according to his heart!
"I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will." Samuel 13:13-14.
The is no one who's offered a prayer from the heart like David did. The words he uttered are complete. In thanksgiving, David prayed. In repentance, David prayed. In praise, David prayed. In distress, David prayed. In hardships and afflictions, David prayed. David prayed according to God's heart. Why can I not learn from him? Set his prayer as my rule, and learn to make his words my words. As these are the words of the heart that is closest to that of God. In all my life, young as it may be, I have never been in a situation where I wanted and could not find satisfaction with the psalms of David
And lastly, this being my personal opinion, the agpeya keeps us praying in unity. I may be home, praying, and I am uttering the same words as Fr. Peter. And praying in unity is also crucial.
There is a story of a monk who desired to go to desert. He asked his father of confession for his advice. The father of confession who wasn’t sure told him that they should both pray and see what God wanted. One night, the monk got a dream. On one side he saw small flames, beautiful and fiery, yet on the other, he saw pillars of fire. When he asked his father of confession what it meant, he said that the small flame represented the prayer of one monk alone, but the pillars of fire were the prayers of all the monks combined together.
Although, I may have taken it a bit out of context, I personally believe the agpeya unifies us and strengthens my prayers.
Wouldn't you then maybe agree that the psalms of David should precede my own personal prayer?