[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10674.msg130446#msg130446 date=1297418969] When we marry someone we are not buying a pair of shoes. I don't think the analogy works at all.
I really HATE it when you misrepresent what I'm saying :( . Nevermind.
The analogy of buying the shoes IS NOT an analogy about marriage!! Its not an analogy about the relationship between a man and a woman in the sanctity of marriage.
Its about the problems of making decisions. It could apply to anything.
Concerning marriage, YOU have to decide on a person, and part of that decision making process involves a needs-criteria. If you make concessions on what your needs are, then I'm not saying its a problem, but I felt that one should not trivialize people's needs.
I find it extremely dangerous, because (let's say) you are someone who thinks looks are superficial (for example), that you treat others as if they have no right to be content with their future spouse's looks in the event that they are looking for a wife. You cannot do that.
I know someone who JUST wanted a girl with green eyes. She had no figure, she had many defaults, but the guy was over the moon with a woman who had green eyes. Everyone is different.
All im saying is that if you want someone who has green eyes, then marrying them doesn't make their eyes green. You just have to appreciate that.
I think everyone here, Fr. Peter, is really looking forward to hearing your opinion. Including me.
I will post something in due course. But I still think you are using entirely the wrong analogy.
It is not appropriate for any person to say that they are looking for someone with green eyes and/or red hair. That IS treating a person as a commodity.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10674.msg130449#msg130449 date=1297426043] I will post something in due course. But I still think you are using entirely the wrong analogy.
It is not appropriate for any person to say that they are looking for someone with green eyes and/or red hair. That IS treating a person as a commodity.
Personally, I beg to differ. I love girls who have red hair for example. I find this EXTREMELY attractive. I don't know what is it about red hair, but when I see I a girl with red hair, I thank God for such beauty. I praise God through His works. Blonde hair is lovely, black hair is lovely, brown hair is lovely - ALL OF GOD's CREATION is lovely. However, for me, personally, red hair is something I find more attractive than ANY other colour. MAYBE it has to do with the fact that my grandmother had beautiful long red hair.
Being attracted to a girl because she has RED hair and being happy with her because of that IS NOT a bad thing.
(IN MY OPINION!).
--this is just an example - but like I said - I do not think its wise to trivialize the person's need to feel sexually attracted or physically attracted to his future wife.
Let's say this young man gets married and is miserable in marriage because he is not attracted to his wife. EVERY PRIEST will tell him: "But if you were not attracted to her, why did you marry her?" What if he's married to this girl, and comes across a girl whom HE DOES find physically attractive after marriage?? You've gone and put this chap in a very awful position. He'd feel he was given the wrong advice. He'd hate you for denying him his free will in deciding on what he wants.. no matter HOW trivial it seems to u.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130450#msg130450 date=1297426827] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10674.msg130449#msg130449 date=1297426043] I will post something in due course. But I still think you are using entirely the wrong analogy.
It is not appropriate for any person to say that they are looking for someone with green eyes and/or red hair. That IS treating a person as a commodity.
Personally, I beg to differ. I love girls who have red hair for example. I find this EXTREMELY attractive. I don't know what is it about red hair, but when I see I a girl with red hair, I thank God for such beauty. I praise God through His works. Blonde hair is lovely, black hair is lovely, brown hair is lovely - ALL OF GOD's CREATION is lovely. However, for me, personally, red hair is something I find more attractive than ANY other colour. MAYBE it has to do with the fact that my grandmother had beautiful long red hair.
Being attracted to a girl because she has RED hair and being happy with her because of that IS NOT a bad thing.
(IN MY OPINION!).
--this is just an example - but like I said - I do not think its wise to trivialize the person's need to feel sexually attracted or physically attracted to his future wife.
Let's say this young man gets married and is miserable in marriage because he is not attracted to his wife. EVERY PRIEST will tell him: "But if you were not attracted to her, why did you marry her?" What if he's married to this girl, and comes across a girl whom HE DOES find physically attractive after marriage?? You've gone and put this chap in a very awful position. He'd feel he was given the wrong advice. He'd hate you for denying him his free will in deciding on what he wants.. no matter HOW trivial it seems to u.
Looking forward to reading your post.
Cheers.
So I'm not the only Egyptian who love girls who have red hair, beautiful, I'm not alone.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10674.msg130452#msg130452 date=1297427672] But you didn't talk about finding various aspects attractive you said...
I know someone who JUST wanted a girl with green eyes.
I don't think that it is proper to WANT in such a way.
That's very pedantic.
But if you want a clarification, I'm happy to offer one:
Apparently (and this is a true story), some guy loved green eyes. He really wanted a wife with green eyes. I'm not sure he insisted on it, or if it was something he DESPERATELY wanted, but long story short, he ended up marrying a girl with green eyes.
The particular girl he married wasn't beautiful to his friends. They made fun of the fact that she wasn't that attractive (to them!). But because she had green eyes, he was over the moon.
He got married to her.
He's extremely happy.
All I'm saying is that the physical appreciation you have towards your future husband/wife IS important. I agree, its not everything, but its not trivial either.
If this young man is saying that he doesnt find his fiancé attractive - then i would be concerned about that. Personally. Telling him :"Well, after a few years of marriage, you'll get used to how ugly she is in your eyes... " doesn't cut it.
Concerning the red-hair issue: ok.. i love red hair. I find absolutely charming. Its beautiful. Even fake red hair. lol.. but its not essential for me (personally)... its not a big deal. I just find it charming. However, I will admit this: I really believe in the importance of finding your wife physically attractive. She could be the nicest person on earth, but if she has a body that you don't particularly find attractive, that's a problem.
Look at Jacob: Did he sin because he didn't love Lea's eyes? He wasn't happy about her eyes? HE HAS THAT RIGHT! He didnt plan on marrying her. He wanted someone with nice eyes.
I really dont think im saying anything out of the ordinary. I think its quite fundamental really.
The only thing I'm adding IS that people here should not trivialize this man's need or problem that he is not attracted to this girl. I don't think this is wise. Finding your future partner attractive IS important!!
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130459#msg130459 date=1297440120] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10674.msg130458#msg130458 date=1297439899] I wonder where are the girls on the forum to comment on this.......
And also, feel free to disagree with anything I've said.
Do you feel that being attracted to the person you want to marry is a small problem, or not even a problem?
Are you hoping that a girl who is not pretty to you before marriage MAY be pretty after marriage (in your eyes?)
Well. I can't fully disagree.....I think we get what you are saying. It's just the way you are writing it on a post is hard to accept......especially for Abouna. But I'd rather not get in an argument that I can't even make a good stand in.
But I really was asking for girls opinions....I wasn't being sarcastic.
Marmar, I don't blame you. We, as man, are just weird......but very predictable.
I agree that a man has to be content with the woman he will choose, and that she has to be a bit attractive in his eyes, but as here already have been said, it's not everything. The heart will always be the most important thing. I don't know exactly in how far attractive a woman has to be for a man, but it really depends on the person. But However I think you shouldn't just marry a woman if u are already hesistating now if u would like her after marriage or not..it can causes a lot of problems and u can't go back.
Take a look at the quote under my post:
"Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, .... "
[quote author=+marmar+ link=topic=10674.msg130466#msg130466 date=1297444809] it can causes a lot of problems and u can't go back.
Exactly! You can't go back.
So, IF the original poster is ALREADY worried about being attracted to this girl, I would be concerned. It means - for him, IT IS a sensitive issue. It is one aspect that bothers him.
And my point is this: IT WILL ALWAYS BOTHER HIM.
I want to stress that my analogy concerns the decision making process - NOT marriage. But in marriage, you are marrying a person. People CAN change. But I don't like the idea of marrying someone HOPING that they change, or working that they change. I shouldn't marry someone and hopes that she can TRY to look like marlyn monroe.. i ought to marry someone who actually REALLY looks like marylin monroe.
You should not only enter marriage with no reservations or uncertainties, but you should also be looking forward to spending the rest of your life with this one person and with no one else.
If you don't feel that way, take your time and see how things go. Time will make all things clear, along with prayer.
This is one of the biggest decisions you will make in your life, and as it has been said, it is final.
You have officially won "Scariest Post Ever on Tasbeha.org"! Congratulations!
To whoever said "where are the girls on the forum to comment on this":
The original poster requested for only people with experience to reply. The only married female I can think of on the top of my head is mabsoota. She already posted. The rest of us are just reading along :)
hey, if u get someone with the 'wrong' colour hair, don't worry, it will eventually go grey or fall out ;)
seriously though, first you should ask God if it's His will for you to marry. then work hard on your spiritual life so you're a really good husband/wife. then look for someone who loves God. all else is a bonus.
also if u think user00's post is scary, then don't get married straight away!
i think whoever posted the original question is taking the mick and everyone who replies is taken in, except myself who has at least one eye open! seeking such advise, seriously, on a forum like this is often a very bad sign.
on a different note, a protestant young man (like i was in the past) would pray about such matters instead of trying to collect attention (or points/stars) on this forum. is this what orthodox young men do when they try to find their other half?... i hope you are an exception.
maybe he is serious? not everyone has good friends to ask these questions. i think we should assume everyone is genuine at first. also i don't think this guy has criticized protestants. but i agree our answers are not great :( may God guide him :)
I registered on this forum specifically to relate to you my story ..
I grew up in a conservative Christian home. I married my wife because she wanted to (expected to) marry me and because she was a "good Christian girl." I was very young - I felt obligated. Add to this that I did love her genuinely, but my affection was completely devoid of sexual attraction, both on a physical level and an emotional level. Two weeks before our wedding, I was dreading it -- yes, SEX.
We're still married more than 12 years later. We love each other, but our marriage has been impossibly difficult. The loneliness - oh my. The Lord has given you pause for a reason. Your heart is in the right place by considering what God's will is. Keep seeking Him. However, do not marry this person until you KNOW IN YOUR HEART God has set her aside for you.
"Whatever is not of faith is sin."
Good luck, my friend. I hope you'll avoid the same mistake I made.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130445#msg130445 date=1297417556] I think most of the opinions here are correct...
I just want to say this. Choosing a wife is personal. What is right for me may not be right for you, nor your circumstances.
No one here has said this to you, but I really commend your honesty in raising this issue. One thing I CAN tell you is this (that IS a certainty) :
Whatever problems/faults/dislikes about your wife you see in her BEFORE marriage - you'll most likely have the same problems after marriage.
For example: if I love blonde haired women a lot, and my fiancé has red hair. And I HATE red hair, but she's a nice a person, so I marry her. Then, believe it or not, marriage doesn't make her blonde. She will have red hair. EVEN if she dyes it another colour, she is someone who is naturally red haired which means that your kids may have red hair.
Now, how important is red hair to you?? A lot of people here act as if looks are not important, but its NOT important to them. They may talk to you as if you are exaggerating an issue for no reason (because you seem to have a LOT in common) - but they have NO right to say that to u.
You are marrying a person. a WOMAN, and you must be content with her. If you cannot handle her negative side - marriage doesn't make her negatives into positives. Im not saying that AFTER marriage it will be a problem for you, after marriage, EVERYONE has to learn to live with the negatives.. just like you are not perfect either.
We can philosophise all day and night that "you're not the perfect man, so why are you looking for the perfect woman .. be humble and accept what u have".. yes, that's all well and good, but that's wrong advice. COMPLETELY wrong.
Its like this.
You walk into a department store looking for a pair of shoes size 11.
Size 11 is sold. The size IS available, although its not the most common.
You see a pair of shoes that looks nice, its feels really great to touch and hold. You try them on and you feel that its JUST a bit short for your feet. Its size 10.5.
You tell the sales assistant: "Look, these shoes are great!, i just need size 11".
She tells you "Well, we've sold out of size 11. Although size 11 is the perfect size for you, your feet aren't perfect either and neither is your hair, nor your job. So, just accept size 10.5, because your life isn't perfect either".
You see what I mean?
Its NOT her job to tell you that. You want something PARTICULAR, and yet in life, you come across many options. Its not easy to say "NO" whenever an option comes your way - especially if you like it. But you must decide on one thing: IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH? IS THIS WHAT YOU WALKED INTO THE STORE TO FIND???
You can argue that after a certain amount of time, you won't notice the pain that a size 10.5 is causing your feet, and you'll get used to it.
But, why are you buying something in the HOPE that it COULD be comfortable? Why don't you find something that's already comfortable for you??? In every aspect??
Its OK to say that you are not attracted to a girl.. that's OK. Its not bad, and you are not vain.
Even Jacob admitted that he prefered the prettiest (IN HIS EYES) of 2 sisters. He prefered Rachel. She was more beautiful in his eyes than Lea (her sister). Did God punish him for liking one physically MORE than the other?? NO!
[quote author=seahorse link=topic=10674.msg130530#msg130530 date=1297496821] I registered on this forum specifically to relate to you my story ..
I grew up in a conservative Christian home. I married my wife because she wanted to (expected to) marry me and because she was a "good Christian girl." I was very young - I felt obligated. Add to this that I did love her genuinely, but my affection was completely devoid of sexual attraction, both on a physical level and an emotional level. Two weeks before our wedding, I was dreading it -- yes, SEX.
We're still married more than 12 years later. We love each other, but our marriage has been impossibly difficult. The loneliness - oh my. The Lord has given you pause for a reason. Your heart is in the right place by considering what God's will is. Keep seeking Him. However, do not marry this person until you KNOW IN YOUR HEART God has set her aside for you.
"Whatever is not of faith is sin."
Good luck, my friend. I hope you'll avoid the same mistake I made.
Hi.
First of all, thanks for posting your experience.
I'm not sure why you quoted me, as I feel you are just echoing the same thing I was saying all along. That if you have a problem/concern BEFORE marriage, it doesn't go away after marriage.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=10674.msg130474#msg130474 date=1297457049] hey, if u get someone with the 'wrong' colour hair, don't worry, it will eventually go grey or fall out ;)
seriously though, first you should ask God if it's His will for you to marry. then work hard on your spiritual life so you're a really good husband/wife. then look for someone who loves God. all else is a bonus.
also if u think user00's post is scary, then don't get married straight away!
I love everything you've written here mabsoota!
Also, I don't know how long you've known each other but maybe you haven't given yourself enough time to let an attraction grow? I don't know that attraction is necessarily instant. Perhaps once you get to really see her inner beauty blossom in all aspects the "physical" attraction might grow. I think many girls would agree with me, but I honestly don't know if guys think the same way :-\
As I said, i'm interested what Fr. Peter has to say. The entire point of priests getting married is that they have experience in this field and can advise others.
This is a very confusing issue, and I really do encourage Fr. Peter to respond - because look:
Let's say you want someone who is healthy (as a partner). That's fine. You have that right. What if you marry them, and they have an accident (God forbids) and that makes them handicapped? You can't just trade them in for a new one. I think this is what Fr. Peter was trying to get at.
What if you want someone beautiful.. and you marry someone beautiful and after marriage she turns ugly? Lol.
What do you do?
I met this girl in Church who was so pretty. After 5 years, I saw her again and she had lost so much weight. She looked AWFUL. I mean, really bad. It was awful. I couldnt believe someone's looks could change so drastically like that.
So, what are you going to do??
What if you are sexually attracted to a girl and you marry her, and then after marriage you end up with a sexual dysfunction - What good then was being sexually attracted to your fiance?? What did that prove??
No one knows what the future holds!!
You're just going to have to trust in God. However, the ONLY point I was making was this:
God reveals to you stuff before marriage that you really ought to pray about and ask for guidance and not take lightly. You also may have had previous experiences with friends or even other potential spouses and may have learnt from them how to appreciate the person you are with.
I personally found a lot of the girls in my Church extremely cruel. I mean, if i repeated to you some of the conversations I've had with them, you'd be sick. Physically sick. And these are the "nice girls" in Church.
What if one of your criteria is to find a husband who has a good job, and all of a sudden he gets laid off?? What then??
I really think you ought to seek much better advice from a Church Councellor. I've ONLY heard of stories where sexual attraction was a problem after marriage - and apparently, they were serious problems. You need to a Church marriage councellor.
I think if your partner is not sexually attractive to you, then this is not really a bad thing, so long as you found them physically attractive. There's a difference. You really ought to find your wife pretty.
Women aren't going to be supermodels EVERY day for you. Especially Egyptian women. They tend to gain weight after marriage (which isn't generally a bad thing) etc..
Again, I prefer you listen to Fr. Peter on this. I'm 99.9% sure his advice will be the best on here. He's married and is very Orthodox. He is totally correct , you are not buying a commodity. But as I mentioned, your decisions and your concerns before marriage are not trivial.
i am not Father Peter, but i dare say.. loving somebody could be a very deceitful thing! Derrida pointed out well when he said that there are two distinct questions when it comes to love: 'who?' and 'what?' do we love somebody for the person he/she is or do we love the qualities that person has? the former is true love, the latter is selfishness. we must be very honest with ourselves when we think we love somebody. Why? because love is from God and the way we love others must reflect His character. If it doesn't reflect His character we distort the image we are to portray of Him! God does not love us for our qualities. He loves us just because!
for who is interested i attach the link for Derrida's comments. i find Derrida very insightful.
He may think that what right do we have to ask for anything?
I mean, let's put it this way.
Let's say you want to marry someone healthy. No medical problems whatsoever.
So, you meet a girl, you like her and you ask : "So, have you ever been ill before?" She says "no".
But that doesn't mean she will never be ill - right? So, you ask a bit more... and then you find yourself stuck: You cannot go around asking all these girls if they've fallen ill or have the potential to fall ill, or if they have any serious medical conditions that runs in the family. You just can't go around doing that.. .can you? Its a bit weired!!
lol..
Let's say you wanted to marry someone beautiful.? So, u meet a girl, and she looks nice. But u don't know if she's just as pretty wearing a bikini as she is wearing a pair of jeans? Maybe her body isn't nice - what are u going to do? Ask her to show you photos of herself in every occassion possible - from Church-wear to swimwear?? You cannot go around doing that.... its just not done.
Unless you're some crazy Egyptian that works for Mubarak, there's no one sane that's going to ask a woman these things.
And like wise, can you imagine dating a girl who keeps on asking you on your salary? What if she said :"OK.. im glad you have a job, but let's say you're laid off, what do you think you'd be able to sell, in order to make me happy?"
What kind of dumb conversation is that????
What if she looks nice wearing makeup and you've only seen her wearing makeup - how do you know if she's going to be nice also without? Are you going to ask her?? What are you going to say?? "I'd like to see you without makeup, because...... because..... because.... i'd like to know how pretty you'll be in the morning if ever we get married?" Come on...
Be reasonable.
What if you wanted to know how she'll look if she gains a few pounds of weight after pregnancy - what are you going to ask her? "Listen babe, do me a favour, i just want to put this up the flag pole and see which way it flies. Could you put this pillow under your shirt and give me a turn so I can what I have to live with if ever you get fat?"
This is nonsense.
Only some idiot working for Colonel Gadaffi would ask a girl this.
Comments
When we marry someone we are not buying a pair of shoes. I don't think the analogy works at all.
I really HATE it when you misrepresent what I'm saying :( . Nevermind.
The analogy of buying the shoes IS NOT an analogy about marriage!! Its not an analogy about the relationship between a man and a woman in the sanctity of marriage.
Its about the problems of making decisions. It could apply to anything.
Concerning marriage, YOU have to decide on a person, and part of that decision making process involves a needs-criteria. If you make concessions on what your needs are, then I'm not saying its a problem, but I felt that one should not trivialize people's needs.
I find it extremely dangerous, because (let's say) you are someone who thinks looks are superficial (for example), that you treat others as if they have no right to be content with their future spouse's looks in the event that they are looking for a wife. You cannot do that.
I know someone who JUST wanted a girl with green eyes. She had no figure, she had many defaults, but the guy was over the moon with a woman who had green eyes. Everyone is different.
All im saying is that if you want someone who has green eyes, then marrying them doesn't make their eyes green. You just have to appreciate that.
I think everyone here, Fr. Peter, is really looking forward to hearing your opinion. Including me.
What advice would you give to this young fellow?
It is not appropriate for any person to say that they are looking for someone with green eyes and/or red hair. That IS treating a person as a commodity.
I will post something in due course. But I still think you are using entirely the wrong analogy.
It is not appropriate for any person to say that they are looking for someone with green eyes and/or red hair. That IS treating a person as a commodity.
Personally, I beg to differ. I love girls who have red hair for example. I find this EXTREMELY attractive. I don't know what is it about red hair, but when I see I a girl with red hair, I thank God for such beauty. I praise God through His works. Blonde hair is lovely, black hair is lovely, brown hair is lovely - ALL OF GOD's CREATION is lovely. However, for me, personally, red hair is something I find more attractive than ANY other colour. MAYBE it has to do with the fact that my grandmother had beautiful long red hair.
Being attracted to a girl because she has RED hair and being happy with her because of that IS NOT a bad thing.
(IN MY OPINION!).
--this is just an example - but like I said - I do not think its wise to trivialize the person's need to feel sexually attracted or physically attracted to his future wife.
Let's say this young man gets married and is miserable in marriage because he is not attracted to his wife. EVERY PRIEST will tell him: "But if you were not attracted to her, why did you marry her?" What if he's married to this girl, and comes across a girl whom HE DOES find physically attractive after marriage?? You've gone and put this chap in a very awful position. He'd feel he was given the wrong advice. He'd hate you for denying him his free will in deciding on what he wants.. no matter HOW trivial it seems to u.
Looking forward to reading your post.
Cheers.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10674.msg130449#msg130449 date=1297426043]
I will post something in due course. But I still think you are using entirely the wrong analogy.
It is not appropriate for any person to say that they are looking for someone with green eyes and/or red hair. That IS treating a person as a commodity.
Personally, I beg to differ. I love girls who have red hair for example. I find this EXTREMELY attractive. I don't know what is it about red hair, but when I see I a girl with red hair, I thank God for such beauty. I praise God through His works. Blonde hair is lovely, black hair is lovely, brown hair is lovely - ALL OF GOD's CREATION is lovely. However, for me, personally, red hair is something I find more attractive than ANY other colour. MAYBE it has to do with the fact that my grandmother had beautiful long red hair.
Being attracted to a girl because she has RED hair and being happy with her because of that IS NOT a bad thing.
(IN MY OPINION!).
--this is just an example - but like I said - I do not think its wise to trivialize the person's need to feel sexually attracted or physically attracted to his future wife.
Let's say this young man gets married and is miserable in marriage because he is not attracted to his wife. EVERY PRIEST will tell him: "But if you were not attracted to her, why did you marry her?" What if he's married to this girl, and comes across a girl whom HE DOES find physically attractive after marriage?? You've gone and put this chap in a very awful position. He'd feel he was given the wrong advice. He'd hate you for denying him his free will in deciding on what he wants.. no matter HOW trivial it seems to u.
Looking forward to reading your post.
Cheers.
So I'm not the only Egyptian who love girls who have red hair, beautiful, I'm not alone.
I know someone who JUST wanted a girl with green eyes.
I don't think that it is proper to WANT in such a way.
But you didn't talk about finding various aspects attractive you said...
I know someone who JUST wanted a girl with green eyes.
I don't think that it is proper to WANT in such a way.
That's very pedantic.
But if you want a clarification, I'm happy to offer one:
Apparently (and this is a true story), some guy loved green eyes. He really wanted a wife with green eyes. I'm not sure he insisted on it, or if it was something he DESPERATELY wanted, but long story short, he ended up marrying a girl with green eyes.
The particular girl he married wasn't beautiful to his friends. They made fun of the fact that she wasn't that attractive (to them!). But because she had green eyes, he was over the moon.
He got married to her.
He's extremely happy.
All I'm saying is that the physical appreciation you have towards your future husband/wife IS important. I agree, its not everything, but its not trivial either.
If this young man is saying that he doesnt find his fiancé attractive - then i would be concerned about that. Personally. Telling him :"Well, after a few years of marriage, you'll get used to how ugly she is in your eyes... " doesn't cut it.
Concerning the red-hair issue: ok.. i love red hair. I find absolutely charming. Its beautiful. Even fake red hair. lol.. but its not essential for me (personally)... its not a big deal. I just find it charming. However, I will admit this: I really believe in the importance of finding your wife physically attractive. She could be the nicest person on earth, but if she has a body that you don't particularly find attractive, that's a problem.
Look at Jacob: Did he sin because he didn't love Lea's eyes? He wasn't happy about her eyes? HE HAS THAT RIGHT! He didnt plan on marrying her. He wanted someone with nice eyes.
I really dont think im saying anything out of the ordinary. I think its quite fundamental really.
The only thing I'm adding IS that people here should not trivialize this man's need or problem that he is not attracted to this girl. I don't think this is wise. Finding your future partner attractive IS important!!
I really encourage you to offer your fatherly advice here.
It would be beneficial to everyone, I'm sure.
Remember - being a married priest has its benefits, and one of them is this.
I wonder where are the girls on the forum to comment on this.......
And also, feel free to disagree with anything I've said.
Do you feel that being attracted to the person you want to marry is a small problem, or not even a problem?
Are you hoping that a girl who is not pretty to you before marriage MAY be pretty after marriage (in your eyes?)
I wonder where are the girls on the forum to comment on this.......
hahaha...I'm a girl.
But sometimes I just don't understand men, so no comment, : p
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10674.msg130458#msg130458 date=1297439899]
I wonder where are the girls on the forum to comment on this.......
And also, feel free to disagree with anything I've said.
Do you feel that being attracted to the person you want to marry is a small problem, or not even a problem?
Are you hoping that a girl who is not pretty to you before marriage MAY be pretty after marriage (in your eyes?)
Well. I can't fully disagree.....I think we get what you are saying. It's just the way you are writing it on a post is hard to accept......especially for Abouna.
But I'd rather not get in an argument that I can't even make a good stand in.
But I really was asking for girls opinions....I wasn't being sarcastic.
Marmar, I don't blame you. We, as man, are just weird......but very predictable.
a bit attractive in his eyes, but as here already have been said, it's not everything. The heart will always be the most important thing. I don't know exactly in how far attractive a woman has to be for a man, but it really depends on the person. But However I think you shouldn't just marry a woman if u are already hesistating now if u would like her after marriage or not..it can causes a lot of problems and u can't go back.
Take a look at the quote under my post:
"Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, .... "
Gb :)
it can causes a lot of problems and u can't go back.
Exactly! You can't go back.
So, IF the original poster is ALREADY worried about being attracted to this girl, I would be concerned. It means - for him, IT IS a sensitive issue. It is one aspect that bothers him.
And my point is this: IT WILL ALWAYS BOTHER HIM.
I want to stress that my analogy concerns the decision making process - NOT marriage. But in marriage, you are marrying a person. People CAN change. But I don't like the idea of marrying someone HOPING that they change, or working that they change. I shouldn't marry someone and hopes that she can TRY to look like marlyn monroe.. i ought to marry someone who actually REALLY looks like marylin monroe.
That's my opinion. If u disagree.. its OK.
You should not only enter marriage with no reservations or uncertainties, but you should also be looking forward to spending the rest of your life with this one person and with no one else.
If you don't feel that way, take your time and see how things go. Time will make all things clear, along with prayer.
This is one of the biggest decisions you will make in your life, and as it has been said, it is final.
God be with you.
You have officially won "Scariest Post Ever on Tasbeha.org"! Congratulations!
To whoever said "where are the girls on the forum to comment on this":
The original poster requested for only people with experience to reply. The only married female I can think of on the top of my head is mabsoota. She already posted. The rest of us are just reading along :)
seriously though, first you should ask God if it's His will for you to marry.
then work hard on your spiritual life so you're a really good husband/wife.
then look for someone who loves God.
all else is a bonus.
also if u think user00's post is scary, then don't get married straight away!
on a different note, a protestant young man (like i was in the past) would pray about such matters instead of trying to collect attention (or points/stars) on this forum. is this what orthodox young men do when they try to find their other half?... i hope you are an exception.
i think we should assume everyone is genuine at first.
also i don't think this guy has criticized protestants.
but i agree our answers are not great :(
may God guide him
:)
User00,
You have officially won "Scariest Post Ever on Tasbeha.org"! Congratulations!
Did i miss something?
All the best to you![glow=red,2,300][/glow]
I grew up in a conservative Christian home. I married my wife because she wanted to (expected to) marry me and because she was a "good Christian girl." I was very young - I felt obligated. Add to this that I did love her genuinely, but my affection was completely devoid of sexual attraction, both on a physical level and an emotional level. Two weeks before our wedding, I was dreading it -- yes, SEX.
We're still married more than 12 years later. We love each other, but our marriage has been impossibly difficult. The loneliness - oh my. The Lord has given you pause for a reason. Your heart is in the right place by considering what God's will is. Keep seeking Him.
However, do not marry this person until you KNOW IN YOUR HEART God has set her aside for you.
"Whatever is not of faith is sin."
Good luck, my friend. I hope you'll avoid the same mistake I made.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130445#msg130445 date=1297417556]
I think most of the opinions here are correct...
I just want to say this. Choosing a wife is personal. What is right for me may not be right for you, nor your circumstances.
No one here has said this to you, but I really commend your honesty in raising this issue. One thing I CAN tell you is this (that IS a certainty) :
Whatever problems/faults/dislikes about your wife you see in her BEFORE marriage - you'll most likely have the same problems after marriage.
For example: if I love blonde haired women a lot, and my fiancé has red hair. And I HATE red hair, but she's a nice a person, so I marry her. Then, believe it or not, marriage doesn't make her blonde. She will have red hair. EVEN if she dyes it another colour, she is someone who is naturally red haired which means that your kids may have red hair.
Now, how important is red hair to you?? A lot of people here act as if looks are not important, but its NOT important to them. They may talk to you as if you are exaggerating an issue for no reason (because you seem to have a LOT in common) - but they have NO right to say that to u.
You are marrying a person. a WOMAN, and you must be content with her. If you cannot handle her negative side - marriage doesn't make her negatives into positives. Im not saying that AFTER marriage it will be a problem for you, after marriage, EVERYONE has to learn to live with the negatives.. just like you are not perfect either.
We can philosophise all day and night that "you're not the perfect man, so why are you looking for the perfect woman .. be humble and accept what u have".. yes, that's all well and good, but that's wrong advice. COMPLETELY wrong.
Its like this.
You walk into a department store looking for a pair of shoes size 11.
Size 11 is sold. The size IS available, although its not the most common.
You see a pair of shoes that looks nice, its feels really great to touch and hold. You try them on and you feel that its JUST a bit short for your feet. Its size 10.5.
You tell the sales assistant: "Look, these shoes are great!, i just need size 11".
She tells you "Well, we've sold out of size 11. Although size 11 is the perfect size for you, your feet aren't perfect either and neither is your hair, nor your job. So, just accept size 10.5, because your life isn't perfect either".
You see what I mean?
Its NOT her job to tell you that. You want something PARTICULAR, and yet in life, you come across many options. Its not easy to say "NO" whenever an option comes your way - especially if you like it. But you must decide on one thing: IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH? IS THIS WHAT YOU WALKED INTO THE STORE TO FIND???
You can argue that after a certain amount of time, you won't notice the pain that a size 10.5 is causing your feet, and you'll get used to it.
But, why are you buying something in the HOPE that it COULD be comfortable? Why don't you find something that's already comfortable for you??? In every aspect??
Its OK to say that you are not attracted to a girl.. that's OK. Its not bad, and you are not vain.
Even Jacob admitted that he prefered the prettiest (IN HIS EYES) of 2 sisters. He prefered Rachel. She was more beautiful in his eyes than Lea (her sister). Did God punish him for liking one physically MORE than the other?? NO!
I registered on this forum specifically to relate to you my story ..
I grew up in a conservative Christian home. I married my wife because she wanted to (expected to) marry me and because she was a "good Christian girl." I was very young - I felt obligated. Add to this that I did love her genuinely, but my affection was completely devoid of sexual attraction, both on a physical level and an emotional level. Two weeks before our wedding, I was dreading it -- yes, SEX.
We're still married more than 12 years later. We love each other, but our marriage has been impossibly difficult. The loneliness - oh my. The Lord has given you pause for a reason. Your heart is in the right place by considering what God's will is. Keep seeking Him.
However, do not marry this person until you KNOW IN YOUR HEART God has set her aside for you.
"Whatever is not of faith is sin."
Good luck, my friend. I hope you'll avoid the same mistake I made.
Hi.
First of all, thanks for posting your experience.
I'm not sure why you quoted me, as I feel you are just echoing the same thing I was saying all along. That if you have a problem/concern BEFORE marriage, it doesn't go away after marriage.
hey, if u get someone with the 'wrong' colour hair, don't worry, it will eventually go grey or fall out ;)
seriously though, first you should ask God if it's His will for you to marry.
then work hard on your spiritual life so you're a really good husband/wife.
then look for someone who loves God.
all else is a bonus.
also if u think user00's post is scary, then don't get married straight away!
I love everything you've written here mabsoota!
Also, I don't know how long you've known each other but maybe you haven't given yourself enough time to let an attraction grow? I don't know that attraction is necessarily instant. Perhaps once you get to really see her inner beauty blossom in all aspects the "physical" attraction might grow. I think many girls would agree with me, but I honestly don't know if guys think the same way :-\
Let's say you want someone who is healthy (as a partner). That's fine. You have that right. What if you marry them, and they have an accident (God forbids) and that makes them handicapped? You can't just trade them in for a new one. I think this is what Fr. Peter was trying to get at.
What if you want someone beautiful.. and you marry someone beautiful and after marriage she turns ugly? Lol.
What do you do?
I met this girl in Church who was so pretty. After 5 years, I saw her again and she had lost so much weight. She looked AWFUL. I mean, really bad. It was awful. I couldnt believe someone's looks could change so drastically like that.
So, what are you going to do??
What if you are sexually attracted to a girl and you marry her, and then after marriage you end up with a sexual dysfunction - What good then was being sexually attracted to your fiance?? What did that prove??
No one knows what the future holds!!
You're just going to have to trust in God. However, the ONLY point I was making was this:
God reveals to you stuff before marriage that you really ought to pray about and ask for guidance and not take lightly. You also may have had previous experiences with friends or even other potential spouses and may have learnt from them how to appreciate the person you are with.
I personally found a lot of the girls in my Church extremely cruel. I mean, if i repeated to you some of the conversations I've had with them, you'd be sick. Physically sick. And these are the "nice girls" in Church.
What if one of your criteria is to find a husband who has a good job, and all of a sudden he gets laid off?? What then??
I really think you ought to seek much better advice from a Church Councellor. I've ONLY heard of stories where sexual attraction was a problem after marriage - and apparently, they were serious problems. You need to a Church marriage councellor.
I think if your partner is not sexually attractive to you, then this is not really a bad thing, so long as you found them physically attractive. There's a difference. You really ought to find your wife pretty.
Women aren't going to be supermodels EVERY day for you. Especially Egyptian women. They tend to gain weight after marriage (which isn't generally a bad thing) etc..
Again, I prefer you listen to Fr. Peter on this. I'm 99.9% sure his advice will be the best on here. He's married and is very Orthodox. He is totally correct , you are not buying a commodity. But as I mentioned, your decisions and your concerns before marriage are not trivial.
loving somebody could be a very deceitful thing!
Derrida pointed out well when he said that there are two distinct questions when it comes to love: 'who?' and 'what?'
do we love somebody for the person he/she is or do we love the qualities that person has?
the former is true love, the latter is selfishness.
we must be very honest with ourselves when we think we love somebody.
Why? because love is from God and the way we love others must reflect His character. If it doesn't reflect His character we distort the image we are to portray of Him!
God does not love us for our qualities. He loves us just because!
for who is interested i attach the link for Derrida's comments. i find Derrida very insightful.
He may think that what right do we have to ask for anything?
I mean, let's put it this way.
Let's say you want to marry someone healthy. No medical problems whatsoever.
So, you meet a girl, you like her and you ask : "So, have you ever been ill before?"
She says "no".
But that doesn't mean she will never be ill - right? So, you ask a bit more... and then you find yourself stuck: You cannot go around asking all these girls if they've fallen ill or have the potential to fall ill, or if they have any serious medical conditions that runs in the family. You just can't go around doing that.. .can you? Its a bit weired!!
lol..
Let's say you wanted to marry someone beautiful.? So, u meet a girl, and she looks nice. But u don't know if she's just as pretty wearing a bikini as she is wearing a pair of jeans? Maybe her body isn't nice - what are u going to do? Ask her to show you photos of herself in every occassion possible - from Church-wear to swimwear??
You cannot go around doing that.... its just not done.
Unless you're some crazy Egyptian that works for Mubarak, there's no one sane that's going to ask a woman these things.
And like wise, can you imagine dating a girl who keeps on asking you on your salary? What if she said :"OK.. im glad you have a job, but let's say you're laid off, what do you think you'd be able to sell, in order to make me happy?"
What kind of dumb conversation is that????
What if she looks nice wearing makeup and you've only seen her wearing makeup - how do you know if she's going to be nice also without? Are you going to ask her?? What are you going to say?? "I'd like to see you without makeup, because...... because..... because.... i'd like to know how pretty you'll be in the morning if ever we get married?" Come on...
Be reasonable.
What if you wanted to know how she'll look if she gains a few pounds of weight after pregnancy - what are you going to ask her? "Listen babe, do me a favour, i just want to put this up the flag pole and see which way it flies. Could you put this pillow under your shirt and give me a turn so I can what I have to live with if ever you get fat?"
This is nonsense.
Only some idiot working for Colonel Gadaffi would ask a girl this.