do we love somebody for the person he/she is or do we love the qualities that person has?
I think this is a very very interesting way to look at it. A lot of Egyptians (according to my experience) tend to not really differentiate between qualities and a person. They will tell you the qualities of a person are part of who he/she is, - in other words, qualities give a partial reflexion of who the person is. Therefore part of what you love about a person is their qualities Personally I think you should not only look at that, rather you take the person as a whole: spirituality, character, personality, behavior, qualities, and yes looks as well - they should be acceptable to you personally (and not according to the measures of the society, but according to what you feel is compatible and acceptable).
do we love somebody for the person he/she is or do we love the qualities that person has?
I think this is a very very interesting way to look at it. A lot of Egyptians (according to my experience) tend to not really differentiate between qualities and a person. They will tell you the qualities of a person are part of who he/she is, - in other words, qualities give a partial reflexion of who the person is. Therefore part of what you love about a person is their qualities Personally I think you should not only look at that, rather you take the person as a whole: spirituality, character, personality, behavior, qualities, and yes looks as well - they should be acceptable to you personally (and not according to the measures of the society, but according to what you feel is compatible and acceptable).
Yes! I see!!
Thanks Hos Erof...
Perhaps this is what Fr. Peter meant? That would make sense. I can see where the problems are by just taking a person based on some set of criterias that you have.
What i was trying to say is that of course people have a set of criteria when finding a wife/husband. That cannot be denied. For example, i think its pretty obvious that no one here has a desire to marry someone from the Muslim Brotherhood. On the contrary, most Christians, if they are practicing wish to marry someone who respects the same faith as them and has the same values.
That's essential. Because apparently, if you change religions after marriage, then your marriage becomes void.
Anyway, so where does this list end? Is it wrong to want to marry someone who is beautiful in your eyes? Is it wrong to want someone who is humble, kind and generous?? Are these Search-Criterias wrong to have?
Well let me give my own opinion for what it is worth..
First the slightly negative..
I do find it problematic when folk speak of any list of characteristics for a partner which are not those of moral and spiritual aspects.
So I have no problem with a person seeking a spiritual, humble and gentle partner (but are they spiritual, humble and gentle themselves). I do not have a problem with someone seeking someone who has shown themselves to be hardworking and willing to be a servant of others.
I have rather more problems when someone says that they are looking for someone beautiful, or someone with a very high paying job etc etc. These do not seem to be to be spiritual attitudes, in younger people or in parents. PLEASE NOTE, I am not saying that it is necessary, spiritual, or sensible to deliberately commit to marriage with someone who has no job or prospects of getting a job.
I have to say that I also find it a little problematic when people speak of sexual attraction towards a potential partner. It is the case that in our Orthodox Tradition we seek not to allow sexual desire to have any freedom of action in our hearts and lives. Indeed sexual attraction is a false guide to anything. Sexual attraction on its own is generally a matter of dysfunction. Either it is a response to the human need for intimacy and it leads to the domination of the spirit by the flesh, or it is a matter of selfish desire for physical satisfaction. We have more than enough threads on the tasbeha site which describe the problems associated with sexual desire.
I do not believe that the attraction between two people who are properly entering into a relationship with the view to marriage should be described as sexual attraction. There should certainly be an attraction. These two should want to spend time together, and should experience a sense of very close friendship and a desire for personal intimacy - but this personal intimacy should not be reduced to sexual attraction or even personal attraction.
It should be an attraction by the whole person which is not at all an objective calculation of how beautiful the person is, or how intelligent, or how rich etc etc. It should be a desire to be with THIS person that is beyond such calculations, yet not one simply based on emotions or hormones. Very quickly, it seems to me, it becomes impossible to consider THIS person objectively. We begin to notice all the physical defects, but they do not matter because we are in a relationship with a PERSON not just a body.
Of course there is a great deal of variety in how a relationship begins and progresses. It may be that a person meets someone, and then spends a great deal of time communicating with them by letter, email and on the phone. It may well be that in such circumstances the physical appearance of a person is less important - not unimportant though - but it may be so that because the relationship deepens between PERSONS that the defects of the physical form - if we may dare to put it like that - are overcome by the relationship which has already extended to a much greater depth than mere appearance.
This is in any case NECESSARY in a marriage. Partners are likely to grow old, saggy, over-weight, wrinkled and burdened with stretch marks - this happens to women as well! If the relationship is only external then this will cause problems. But in a proper relationship of love between persons these marks of humanity and mortality do not affect how the two feel about each other. The wife might say that she wishes her husband looked like someone off Baywatch, but she is actually in love with the man who looks like he is nearing 50 and is a couple of stone overweight. Just as he is in love with the woman who has borne him children and still bears the scars.
When we look around we see that most older people are not as physically attractive as youngsters, but there is usually even more real love shared between these ugly and ancient people who have been together for 20 and 30 and more years than there is even between two newly weds who have yet to weather any of life's storms together.
There is a place for sexual attraction. It is between a married couple when they wish to express the intimacy of their union with each other. But what keeps them together is something else, truly a sense of being 'one'. There is a complete comfortableness in each other's company. The sexual attraction ceases to be something hormonal which is switched on by almost anything and which must be resisted, and it becomes one of the means of facilitating the marital union, (but only one means and at one level).
There is always a place for physical attraction - this is not the same as sexual attraction. It means a desire to be WITH a person. Indeed it is not restricted to the physical. There is an emotional desire to be WITH a person. There is a spiritual desire to be WITH a person. This is proper to those considering marriage. The sexual element is not so important. Indeed if there is no desire to be WITH this person then the sexual element is irrelevant.
But I don't see that there is scope for a list of requirements when it comes to meeting people. Indeed this seems to me to DENY people the opportunity to be persons made in the image of God. We surely do not see people only as prospective partners, therefore we should not approach them with a list of characteristics in mind. And when we approach people as persons then we discover that it does not matter that they have brown hair rather than blonde, or blue eyes rather than brown, or are relatively short rather than tall. None of this matters when we deal with PERSONS.
We don't say, well I would have liked Abouna Peter but he is a bit overweight and I have decided not to like anyone overweight. Or, I would have like to have gone to hear Abouna Peter preach but I have decided that I will only listen to priests over 5' 9" tall.
So, it seems to me, we should not, and do not normally, set such restrictions on the people we meet and enter into normal Christian relationships with. The serious and faithful Christian finds him/herself in the first place drawn to others who are also serious about the Christian Faith. The serious and faithful Christian finds a few close friends within this group of serious and faithful Christians who share some other interests as well. And perhaps there is some spark with one special person.
That 'spark' contains a whole range of elements, but it must encapsulate a sense of wanting to be WITH this other person, and that contains elements of the physical, the mental, the psychological and the spiritual. (I would not say the sexual, that is, to a great extent contained within the physical attraction). This IS NOT about whether or not a person reaches some standard we have set, but rather whether or not we enjoy being WITH and CLOSE to that person. If I discover that I love THIS person then I am already unable to consider this person as if she/he was just one photograph compared to many other photographs. When I have come to love this person then I have also embraced all of those notional physical defects which they may also have.
Now the thing we need to be more careful of are moral, cultural and spiritual defects. If we THINK we love someone because they are physically beautiful but we allow this infatuation to disguise in our thinking the real moral defects which this other person manifests then this is not good grounds at all for marriage. But the original post was not about such a situation.
But it is the case that when we are aware of the spiritual and moral beauty of a person, if they have such, then the physical appearance is LESS important, without ceasing to have some value.
Now in regard to the OP. It seems to me, without knowing any details or any of the persons involved, there SHOULD be a personal and physical attraction. I do not say sexual, that generally takes care of itself at the right time. But the OP SHOULD want to be close their prospective partner, both physically, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually. If there is no greater PERSONAL attraction than that between the OP and many other friends then it would seem that the relationship is deficient in terms of progressing towards marriage. The OP should not constantly be thinking of sexual activity - that is not the same as physical attraction - but there should be a sense that the OP wants to spend time with the prospective partner and to be in the presence of the prospective partner above all others. There should be a sense in which the OP loves the prospective partner AND loves to be WITH the prospective partner.
In this sense it DOES NOT MATTER if the OP is aware that his prospective partner is not the most attractive person in the world. But the OP should surely, it would seem to me, want to be WITH this person, and have a strong sense not that he is aware she is not the most beautiful person, but that she is the most beautiful PERSON to him (not the most beautiful body!) when approaching marriage the relationship should have already gone beyond mere physicality. As PERSONS we are body, mind, spirit, interests, experiences etc etc. We are a complex composite and we grow to love this complexity such that we love the PERSON not the individual attributes. We should be attracted to the PERSON in his or her entirety, even while recognising that there are some elements of THIS PERSON that we find less attractive. (AND in some cases some of these less attractive elements become so serious to us that marriage is ill advised, but I would hope that these would be moral deficiencies not simply physical ones).
SO.... Is the OP attracted to the PERSON of his prospective partner. Does he feel happy and glad to be in her company? Does the world fade into the background a little when she is around? If not then it is not a matter of lacking sexual attraction, which is not important at this stage. There is something more significant which is missing. If the OP does experience this sense of wanting to be WITH his prospective partner then this ALREADY includes the aspect of physical attraction. But if he can take it or leave it whether he is with her then again this is not a good basis and that sense of intimacy and desire for intimacy will not magically appear.
I suppose I would want to ask the OP if he was in my congregation whether there was some aspect or characteristic of his prospective partner which he perhaps unconsciously was aware of and which was causing a sense of hesitancy and caution. I would want to ask if there was a desire, I don't mean a sexual passion, but a personal desire to be close with the prospective partner. If that was completely missing then this would also be a cause for concern and further discussion.
In case anyone else was lost: OP = Original Poster.
We don't say, well I would have liked Abouna Peter but he is a bit overweight and I have decided not to like anyone overweight. Or, I would have like to have gone to hear Abouna Peter preach but I have decided that I will only listen to priests over 5' 9" tall.
Or I only listen to priests with American accents... just kidding. ;D
Thanks so much for the lively discussion. I really enjoyed reading what everyone said here.
Father Peter,
I really appreciate taking the time to answer my post. As regards your question, yes i am attracted to her as a PERSON, and I am comfortable spending time with her. I agree that using the word sexual rather than physical is not appropriate, but after reading your post, I am confused about how to tell if there is PHYSICAL attraction or not. Did you mean that if I can sit with her for long time, this means I am already physically attracted ? Is it that simple ? One of my concerns is that when we walk in public, I find that most girls are more physically attractive than her. Is that a bad sign ?
Let me also share my experience with my FOC. When I was still looking for a partner, I took his advice. He kept telling me that I should focus on the inside beauty because that is what will last forever .... etc etc. when I took his advice and got engaged, i started having the concern of physical attraction, so i went back to him for reassurance. Surprisingly, the first thing he asked about is whether I liked how she looks like. I was about to talk about her inside beauty, but again, he insisted on her external appearance !!!
Godlovedme, when your father of confession asked you about your fiance's external beauty in your eyes, what did you say?
I don't want to give you the wrong advice, but if you do find her pretty, really pretty and are not sexually atttracted, yet you admire and like her inner beauty, then it does look quite promising. In fact, many would even envy you, because there is a sense of purity of heart in what you have together. That's a good thing.
But if you don't find her attractive or pretty, I would be a tad bit concerned.
You are a mature guy. To be engaged already, you must be. But we are therefore all assuming that you do not find your fiancé attractive. At all.
I don't think that anyone is absolutely and objectively physically beautiful. As I walked down the street today I chose to consider many of those I passed by, and some were more attractive than others, none were stunningly beautiful in the manner in which the secular anti-Christian media proposes, most were time-worn. Yet it is also the case that most had a partner who found them attractive in their entirety as a person.
Sometimes someone will say to me, 'That person on TV is attractive', and I will say, 'I don't find her so'. Indeed if we look carefully at anyone of us we are all liable to be criticised for various imperfections. Some consider THIS nose attractive, others find it too long or too short. Our appreciation of 'beauty' is almost entirely culturally conditioned. There are African cultures which force feed large quantities of milk to their daughters so that they grow fat, and this is considered beautiful. In our own failing Western culture the media has made a cult of the ultra-thin. But beauty is not a matter of cultural conditioning, and we must as Orthodox Christians, to a great extent look beyond mere non-Christian culture.
In times past in England a man might chooses as a wife someone who was perhaps plain, but who had showed herself a good manager of a household, and who offered the prospect to being a good mother and companion. This does not mean that physical attraction did not exist, but it was and is one aspect of being attracted to a PERSON.
When my wife looks at me she no longer sees the extremely handsome young man I was (not!). But she sees her husband of 21 years. She is still attracted to me, and to her, but it is not a matter of bare physical appearance, nor was it ever. If you put me in a line up and asked her to pick the most handsome man I guess she would not pick me, unless the line up was made up of some pretty odd looking people! But marriage is not about bare physical appearance.
Nevertheless, IT IS ONE ASPECT, but not as the world looks at things. To be attracted to a person is not to look only at the externals, indeed the externals are given a radiance by that which is within, or become repugnant by that which is within. The externals only have bare value when we do not know the person at all, and therefore they should not be given much weight. We look across a room and see a very attractive woman, but she opens her mouth and all manner of profanity come forth. Is the woman attractive to an Orthodox Christian or not? I would say not. The plainer woman whom we ignored is carefully making sure that all of the older people have been given some food to eat and we engage in conversation. Her plain-ness (if we may dare say such a thing about one created in the image of God) is transformed by her inner beauty even while the inner ugliness of the other woman darkens her outward appearance.
If we have entered a relationship of love then the external appearance, though it does not change objectively, is transformed by what we find within. We are not able to separate the external appearance from the personhood of the one we have entered a relationship with. I could not easily tell you what I think about my wife's appearance after 21 years. It is enough to say 'she is my wife'. No other question could be asked. I could not answer the question, what do you think of her mere physical appearance. It is impossible to separate her appearance from her person, and the person she is, is my wife, united with me in every way.
So I am not sure that it is necessary to consider whether a fiancee is externally beautiful. Rather I believe we ask ourselves whether we want to be with THIS PERSON, with the whole package, for the rest of our lives. If we cannot imagine ourselves living in complete intimacy with THIS PERSON, irrespective to some extent of their objective appearance, then there is cause for hesitancy and caution. We are not comparing this person with others, we should not say, well she is not as beautiful as X or Y. We should be comparing the state of spending the rest of our lives with her and the state of not spending the rest of our lives with her. If we end up thinking that we could actually care less then there is also cause for hesitancy.
If you think that your fiancee is pretty, or even pretty enough, then that is fine. I think of all the people I know who have married and I might not find any of their partners beautiful, some I might find attractive, others less attractive, and some not attractive at all. BUT THIS DOES NOT MATTER. I have not married them. There was something about each of those people which attracted the other, AND IT WAS NOT OBJECTIVE BEAUTY but a subjective attraction.
Do YOU find your fiancee attractive? Not from an objective point of view, but overall. Do you find THIS PERSON attractive. In a Western culture this would mean that you like to walk holding her hand. You like to sit close to her. If she takes your hand you feel special. You have a photo of her in your wallet. You share food with her without thinking 'this will spread germs'.
It must be said that there are people we like and appreciate as friends but somewhere inside we do find them physically ugly, or very overweight and we are not attracted to them in any physical sense, even while we would give them a chaste hug if they needed it. We love them as persons but we do not feel a sense of attraction to the 'whole personal package'. But there are many other people who are not as 'attractive' as a super model (I don't find super models attractive I am afraid) but who are attractive enough to US, there are many people who are not super-slim, and are carrying a few extra pounds, but we find them attractive nevertheless. We should not think that we must seek out either physical perfection (what is that?) or reject everything else as physical deformity. In fact just as most people are bearing some level of mental and emotional illness (in my experience) and are not mentally and emotionally perfect, so most people are not objectively and absolutely physically beautiful. So the question is whether WE find THIS PERSON attractive, not whether our friend does, nor whether we find THIS PERSON as physically attractive as someone on TV. THAT PERSON might be quite unattractive as a PERSON even though he or she might have an outward beauty of form.
So I guess I am suggesting that if you love THIS PERSON as a person, and if YOU enjoy being with HER, and if you find that to hold her hand (if that is culturally appropriate in your situation), or to sit beside her, or to share a meal with her, are all things that produce a greater sense of wanting to be WITH HER then this is physical attraction. It is entirely false to consider that we can only have sexual relations with those we consider outstandingly and objectively beautiful. It does not work like that. It is not meant to work like that. True sexual intimacy is but one important aspect of personal intimacy. If you wish and desire to be in an intimate union with this person then the aspect of sexual intimacy will work itself out. It is built on the relationship of openness, of humour and self-deprecation which should be being established during the engagement. If you are not becoming entirely comfortable with THIS PERSON then there is also a cause for hesitancy.
You will perhaps be with this person in sickness, and in poverty and in distress. Are you able to bear with all these things with THIS PERSON. When your wife is being sick and you have to hold the bowl it requires a true intimacy. Physical attraction is not the lasting basis for such self-less love. But the PERSONAL attraction must always be there. Why else would a person bear with all of the difficulties of marriage? It is because I choose to be with THIS PERSON as long as I live.
This is the expression of the PERSONAL attraction. We choose this PERSON. We commit to THIS PERSON. If we only choose an outward appearance then what are we left with when it fades? It is like worshipping God only for the things He gives us. It is an empty worship. Just as a marriage based only on appearance is a fragile thing and not likely to last. But there is a sense in which we do love God because of the things He gives, or rather because HE is the GIVER. And so we also love the one we marry, not because of how they look, but because it is SHE or HE who looks as SHE or HE looks.
We love the funny nose because it is HIS or HER funny nose. We love the extra pounds because they are HIS or HER extra pounds. We love the eyes, the ears, the feet and hands not because they are the best possible eyes, ears, feet and hands, but because they are HIS or HER eyes, ears, feet and hands. If we do not, at the beginning, I mean. If we only see that they are defective eyes, ears, feet and hands. If we cannot see the PERSON beyond that and cannot truly love all of the one who is THIS PERSON then there is cause for hesitancy. If we CAN see and love the WHOLE PERSON then that choice is ENTIRELY PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE.
Lol just this morning my grandpa asked me, "Would you like to marry a guy with or without a mustache?" My response was a short summery of Father Peter's post. He gave me a blank stare (he probably didn't understand my Arabic), so I just told him without.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg130711#msg130711 date=1297794629] Lol just this morning my grandpa asked me, "Would you like to marry a guy with or without a mustache?" My response was a short summery of Father Peter's post. He gave me a blank stare (he probably didn't understand my Arabic), so I just told him without.
TITL, sorry, maybe a stupid question, bu are you a girl? I thought u were a guy :o Sorry.. :-[
when i posted this problem here in tasbeha, I was hoping that God talks to me through the replies I get. Your answers in particular were very helpful. I found your second post even more straight forward and understandable to people with lower spiritual levels like me. You highlighted exactly what I am trying to do. I want to reach the level to love her defects like funny ears, nose, mouth, extra pounds or whatsoever, just because those are her ears, nose, mouth, extra pounds etc. That is what I am struggling with during this early stage of our engagement. She is really a good personality so i don't want to waste this chance because of things that might not be very important in the future. Please pray for me.
[quote author=AikotiEnsok link=topic=10674.msg130489#msg130489 date=1297461150] Wheres GODlovesme when we need her?? lol
I am here reading this lol. I have refrained from posting because I have very different views regarding marriage (at least vastly different from 20-year-old girls ---> my age) and I would not like to be termed "WEIRD AND INSANE" because of them; I've had that unfortunate event occur before. I will say this though: I don't think that being attracted to a girl/guy should be the determining factor of whether you get married to that person or not. Sorry but that's just stupid. A lot of guys are attracted to me because I'm "gorgeous," (I'm not trying to be conceited, I'm stating what's been said to me), I rejected them all because they knew nothing about my personality, they only want to go out with me because of how I look. I found that really offensive as I care about personality in people more than anything and the fact that they only wanted to go out with me because they found me attractive was insulting to me because they didn't even care whether I had a great personality or not.
Zoxsasi, your posts are the most offensive ones I have ever read. You cannot objectify a woman like that. I was appalled by what you said. I am just speechless. I don't know what to say to convey the amount of anger you stirred within me with your insensitive comments.
This is kind of a confusing subject. I hear women say they want a man to love them for who they are not how they look, yet they dress and look as if their very goal is to attract a man based on their looks alone. There is a woman that goes to my church that wears no make up and is so unbelievably modest in her style of dress, I use her as an example to the rest of the young women in our congregation. Because she is a true example of a woman and is more attractive because she is comfortable with how she looks with no make up or whorish clothing, THAT is what would attract a true Orthodox Christian man. ( not saying that anyone here dresses like a whore or anything like that )
But its like me dressing up as a police officer, then being upset that someone asks me to help them in a situation that only a police officer is suited for. If you present yourself in a certain way, you will illicit a certain response. Presenting yourself in worldly attire and makeup will bring about a worldly reaction.
That's very true, Ioannes, about worldly dressing and worldly attention that follows it. I am always shaking my head in disbelief at so many younger girls who dress provocatively and then wonder why they can't meet any quality men. Duh... (Sorry to any young ladies who read this; It's hard not react this way after so many years of the same complaints from the same people. Trust me, I have a whole other range of complaints I'm sick of from my fellow young men. ;))
For an extended period of time in my early twenties I dated a young woman who was very plainly dressed, almost to the point of appearing not to care about fashion. But on Sundays, when we would go to Mass (this was when I was still Catholic), she would put on her finest clothing, and do her hair very nicely, and all that. It was never showy, just very classy and presentable. At first I was confused until she told me "God sees me hanging around in my pajamas enough during the rest of the week. Sunday I am going to HIS house, so I dress appropriately." And you know what? She was right. And I was never more attracted to her (in the sense that Fr. Peter used the word in his excellent post) than when she would show up, eager to go to the Mass and be with God in His house (and nice enough to invite me to be a part of that). Things didn't work out between us, but that experience taught me a lot about what to look for in a young lady.
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10674.msg130729#msg130729 date=1297817080] Zoxsasi, your posts are the most offensive ones I have ever read. You cannot objectify a woman like that. I was appalled by what you said. I am just speechless. I don't know what to say to convey the amount of anger you stirred within me with your insensitive comments.
What exactly did I say that was offensive?
If I read over my posts, I was saying that its important to find your wife attractive (before you marry her). I didnt say sexually attractive, but she should not be unattractive in your eyes.
If you enjoy all the qualities this person has to offer, the other things will fall into place. Because you are having these thoughts of confusion, it means that you are seeing this person for who they are inside, which is most important. What is attractive on the outside (sexually) should not be a total issue, because one day, you will both grow older and lose your attractiveness. Then you will have left, the wonderful qualities that made you fall in love. Hope this helps. I'm married 16 years. Love him so much..inside and out.. Rabena m3ak
[quote author=jenny link=topic=10674.msg130785#msg130785 date=1297874324] If you enjoy all the qualities this person has to offer, the other things will fall into place. Because you are having these thoughts of confusion, it means that you are seeing this person for who they are inside, which is most important. What is attractive on the outside (sexually) should not be a total issue, because one day, you will both grow older and lose your attractiveness. Then you will have left, the wonderful qualities that made you fall in love. Hope this helps. I'm married 16 years. Love him so much..inside and out.. Rabena m3ak
I would agree with everything you said. I just don't understand what I said that was so bad?
I hate it when I see women approach the communion dressed like they are at a disco. Its bad enough that many of the congregants dont know anything about what they believe, but to disgrace the sacrament of sacraments like that is disgusting to me.
Zoxsasi, You made it sound as if when one is looking for a future spouse (specifically a female), you are going shopping. You were objectifying women in your posts.
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10674.msg130800#msg130800 date=1297887866] Zoxsasi, You made it sound as if when one is looking for a future spouse (specifically a female), you are going shopping. You were objectifying women in your posts.
Where EXACTLY did I say that?? If you had bothered to read the post , I said that ONLY AN IDIOT would do that!!!!!!!
I'm therefore saying the exact opposite: that YOU CANNOT treat a woman as if you are going out shopping. Its not possible.
A girl once told me that not only does she want to marry a virgin, but she INSISTED on it. She may get to know a man and find out that he is not a virgin. But she cannot keep on asking men these questions as if she's filling out a questionnaire. You cannot.
You don't go around and meet people and pull out a questionnaire and interview them - do you???
SO IM SAYING THE EXACT OPPOSITE! Its not done!
READ MY POST!!!
I said only some crazy arab would treat people this way.
I agree with Fr. Peter, you are marrying a person. You have to take the person as they are. You cannot change them.
MY ONLY argument IN ALL OF THIS, which you are welcome to object to, is that Im telling the OP that if there is a problem before marriage, most likely it remains after marriage. I.e. marriage doesn't nullify a problem. So, if let's say that i have a psychological problem with brown hair, and i marry a girl who has brown hair... marriage doesn't make her hair red, or blonde.
If I am Egyptian and my wife doesn't speak Arabic, and I love speaking Arabic and think in Arabic, then marriage won't make my wife bilingual.
That's all i'm saying. That's the ONLY piece of advice I've EVER hammered on here. That's it!
PLEASE READ CAREFULLY PEOPLE's POSTS BEFORE YOU ATTACK THEM.
I read every single word of your posts, FYI. You didn't make yourself clear and what I got from the post was that I was appalled at the kind of language you were using to describe the process of seeking out a spouse.
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10674.msg130802#msg130802 date=1297889286] I read every single word of your posts, FYI. You didn't make yourself clear and what I got from the post was that I was appalled at the kind of language you were using to describe the process of seeking out a spouse.
I just read it myself... i said YOU CANNOT GO AROUND DOING THAT.. I said it loads of times.
I said that ONLY someone working in Mubarak's regime would treat a woman this way. YOU READ it that way, and it was incorrect.
Rather than just attack someone, you could have just asked "What did you mean by that?". Its better to take my post and quote me.. .
I'll quote myself again so u can read it (SLOWLY!!)>
Let's say you want to marry someone healthy. No medical problems whatsoever.
So, you meet a girl, you like her and you ask : "So, have you ever been ill before?" She says "no".
But that doesn't mean she will never be ill - right? So, you ask a bit more... and then you find yourself stuck: You cannot go around asking all these girls if they've fallen ill or have the potential to fall ill, or if they have any serious medical conditions that runs in the family. You just can't go around doing that.. .can you? Its a bit weired!!
lol..
Let's say you wanted to marry someone beautiful.? So, u meet a girl, and she looks nice. But u don't know if she's just as pretty wearing a bikini as she is wearing a pair of jeans? Maybe her body isn't nice - what are u going to do? Ask her to show you photos of herself in every occassion possible - from Church-wear to swimwear?? You cannot go around doing that.... its just not done.
Unless you're some crazy Egyptian that works for Mubarak, there's no one sane that's going to ask a woman these things.
And like wise, can you imagine dating a girl who keeps on asking you on your salary? What if she said :"OK.. im glad you have a job, but let's say you're laid off, what do you think you'd be able to sell, in order to make me happy?"
What kind of dumb conversation is that????
What if she looks nice wearing makeup and you've only seen her wearing makeup - how do you know if she's going to be nice also without? Are you going to ask her?? What are you going to say?? "I'd like to see you without makeup, because...... because..... because.... i'd like to know how pretty you'll be in the morning if ever we get married?" Come on...
Be reasonable.
What if you wanted to know how she'll look if she gains a few pounds of weight after pregnancy - what are you going to ask her? "Listen babe, do me a favour, i just want to put this up the flag pole and see which way it flies. Could you put this pillow under your shirt and give me a turn so I can what I have to live with if ever you get fat?"
This is nonsense.
Only some idiot working for Colonel Gadaffi would ask a girl this.
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10674.msg130804#msg130804 date=1297889872] I'd rather you didn't. I got offended enough the first time around >:(
excuse me, but you accused me publicly here.. and i've explained and re-quoted the same message again for you.
At least you could have the DECENCY to read it again and see where you've misunderstood!! But to stay that you found it offensive, means that YOU ACTUALLY think that I'm promoting men in treating women like objects....
I choose to be INDECENT and refuse to reread your comments...however, I do believe that Father Peter also disliked the "analogies" you were using as he put it. So, apparently, I am not misreading your comments, at least one other person read it the same way I did.
Comments
Yes! I see!!
Thanks Hos Erof...
Perhaps this is what Fr. Peter meant? That would make sense. I can see where the problems are by just taking a person based on some set of criterias that you have.
Fair enough.
That's essential. Because apparently, if you change religions after marriage, then your marriage becomes void.
Anyway, so where does this list end? Is it wrong to want to marry someone who is beautiful in your eyes?
Is it wrong to want someone who is humble, kind and generous?? Are these Search-Criterias wrong to have?
First the slightly negative..
I do find it problematic when folk speak of any list of characteristics for a partner which are not those of moral and spiritual aspects.
So I have no problem with a person seeking a spiritual, humble and gentle partner (but are they spiritual, humble and gentle themselves). I do not have a problem with someone seeking someone who has shown themselves to be hardworking and willing to be a servant of others.
I have rather more problems when someone says that they are looking for someone beautiful, or someone with a very high paying job etc etc. These do not seem to be to be spiritual attitudes, in younger people or in parents. PLEASE NOTE, I am not saying that it is necessary, spiritual, or sensible to deliberately commit to marriage with someone who has no job or prospects of getting a job.
I have to say that I also find it a little problematic when people speak of sexual attraction towards a potential partner. It is the case that in our Orthodox Tradition we seek not to allow sexual desire to have any freedom of action in our hearts and lives. Indeed sexual attraction is a false guide to anything. Sexual attraction on its own is generally a matter of dysfunction. Either it is a response to the human need for intimacy and it leads to the domination of the spirit by the flesh, or it is a matter of selfish desire for physical satisfaction. We have more than enough threads on the tasbeha site which describe the problems associated with sexual desire.
I do not believe that the attraction between two people who are properly entering into a relationship with the view to marriage should be described as sexual attraction. There should certainly be an attraction. These two should want to spend time together, and should experience a sense of very close friendship and a desire for personal intimacy - but this personal intimacy should not be reduced to sexual attraction or even personal attraction.
It should be an attraction by the whole person which is not at all an objective calculation of how beautiful the person is, or how intelligent, or how rich etc etc. It should be a desire to be with THIS person that is beyond such calculations, yet not one simply based on emotions or hormones. Very quickly, it seems to me, it becomes impossible to consider THIS person objectively. We begin to notice all the physical defects, but they do not matter because we are in a relationship with a PERSON not just a body.
Of course there is a great deal of variety in how a relationship begins and progresses. It may be that a person meets someone, and then spends a great deal of time communicating with them by letter, email and on the phone. It may well be that in such circumstances the physical appearance of a person is less important - not unimportant though - but it may be so that because the relationship deepens between PERSONS that the defects of the physical form - if we may dare to put it like that - are overcome by the relationship which has already extended to a much greater depth than mere appearance.
This is in any case NECESSARY in a marriage. Partners are likely to grow old, saggy, over-weight, wrinkled and burdened with stretch marks - this happens to women as well! If the relationship is only external then this will cause problems. But in a proper relationship of love between persons these marks of humanity and mortality do not affect how the two feel about each other. The wife might say that she wishes her husband looked like someone off Baywatch, but she is actually in love with the man who looks like he is nearing 50 and is a couple of stone overweight. Just as he is in love with the woman who has borne him children and still bears the scars.
When we look around we see that most older people are not as physically attractive as youngsters, but there is usually even more real love shared between these ugly and ancient people who have been together for 20 and 30 and more years than there is even between two newly weds who have yet to weather any of life's storms together.
There is a place for sexual attraction. It is between a married couple when they wish to express the intimacy of their union with each other. But what keeps them together is something else, truly a sense of being 'one'. There is a complete comfortableness in each other's company. The sexual attraction ceases to be something hormonal which is switched on by almost anything and which must be resisted, and it becomes one of the means of facilitating the marital union, (but only one means and at one level).
There is always a place for physical attraction - this is not the same as sexual attraction. It means a desire to be WITH a person. Indeed it is not restricted to the physical. There is an emotional desire to be WITH a person. There is a spiritual desire to be WITH a person. This is proper to those considering marriage. The sexual element is not so important. Indeed if there is no desire to be WITH this person then the sexual element is irrelevant.
But I don't see that there is scope for a list of requirements when it comes to meeting people. Indeed this seems to me to DENY people the opportunity to be persons made in the image of God. We surely do not see people only as prospective partners, therefore we should not approach them with a list of characteristics in mind. And when we approach people as persons then we discover that it does not matter that they have brown hair rather than blonde, or blue eyes rather than brown, or are relatively short rather than tall. None of this matters when we deal with PERSONS.
We don't say, well I would have liked Abouna Peter but he is a bit overweight and I have decided not to like anyone overweight. Or, I would have like to have gone to hear Abouna Peter preach but I have decided that I will only listen to priests over 5' 9" tall.
So, it seems to me, we should not, and do not normally, set such restrictions on the people we meet and enter into normal Christian relationships with. The serious and faithful Christian finds him/herself in the first place drawn to others who are also serious about the Christian Faith. The serious and faithful Christian finds a few close friends within this group of serious and faithful Christians who share some other interests as well. And perhaps there is some spark with one special person.
That 'spark' contains a whole range of elements, but it must encapsulate a sense of wanting to be WITH this other person, and that contains elements of the physical, the mental, the psychological and the spiritual. (I would not say the sexual, that is, to a great extent contained within the physical attraction). This IS NOT about whether or not a person reaches some standard we have set, but rather whether or not we enjoy being WITH and CLOSE to that person. If I discover that I love THIS person then I am already unable to consider this person as if she/he was just one photograph compared to many other photographs. When I have come to love this person then I have also embraced all of those notional physical defects which they may also have.
Now the thing we need to be more careful of are moral, cultural and spiritual defects. If we THINK we love someone because they are physically beautiful but we allow this infatuation to disguise in our thinking the real moral defects which this other person manifests then this is not good grounds at all for marriage. But the original post was not about such a situation.
But it is the case that when we are aware of the spiritual and moral beauty of a person, if they have such, then the physical appearance is LESS important, without ceasing to have some value.
Now in regard to the OP. It seems to me, without knowing any details or any of the persons involved, there SHOULD be a personal and physical attraction. I do not say sexual, that generally takes care of itself at the right time. But the OP SHOULD want to be close their prospective partner, both physically, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually. If there is no greater PERSONAL attraction than that between the OP and many other friends then it would seem that the relationship is deficient in terms of progressing towards marriage. The OP should not constantly be thinking of sexual activity - that is not the same as physical attraction - but there should be a sense that the OP wants to spend time with the prospective partner and to be in the presence of the prospective partner above all others. There should be a sense in which the OP loves the prospective partner AND loves to be WITH the prospective partner.
In this sense it DOES NOT MATTER if the OP is aware that his prospective partner is not the most attractive person in the world. But the OP should surely, it would seem to me, want to be WITH this person, and have a strong sense not that he is aware she is not the most beautiful person, but that she is the most beautiful PERSON to him (not the most beautiful body!) when approaching marriage the relationship should have already gone beyond mere physicality. As PERSONS we are body, mind, spirit, interests, experiences etc etc. We are a complex composite and we grow to love this complexity such that we love the PERSON not the individual attributes. We should be attracted to the PERSON in his or her entirety, even while recognising that there are some elements of THIS PERSON that we find less attractive. (AND in some cases some of these less attractive elements become so serious to us that marriage is ill advised, but I would hope that these would be moral deficiencies not simply physical ones).
SO.... Is the OP attracted to the PERSON of his prospective partner. Does he feel happy and glad to be in her company? Does the world fade into the background a little when she is around? If not then it is not a matter of lacking sexual attraction, which is not important at this stage. There is something more significant which is missing. If the OP does experience this sense of wanting to be WITH his prospective partner then this ALREADY includes the aspect of physical attraction. But if he can take it or leave it whether he is with her then again this is not a good basis and that sense of intimacy and desire for intimacy will not magically appear.
I suppose I would want to ask the OP if he was in my congregation whether there was some aspect or characteristic of his prospective partner which he perhaps unconsciously was aware of and which was causing a sense of hesitancy and caution. I would want to ask if there was a desire, I don't mean a sexual passion, but a personal desire to be close with the prospective partner. If that was completely missing then this would also be a cause for concern and further discussion.
Father Peter
VPP (very profound post) Father Peter!
"Now the thing we need to be more careful of are moral, cultural and spiritual defects."
I understand what moral and spiritual defects could be, but can you give an example of a "cultural" defect?
Father Peter,
I really appreciate taking the time to answer my post. As regards your question, yes i am attracted to her as a PERSON, and I am comfortable spending time with her. I agree that using the word sexual rather than physical is not appropriate, but after reading your post, I am confused about how to tell if there is PHYSICAL attraction or not. Did you mean that if I can sit with her for long time, this means I am already physically attracted ? Is it that simple ?
One of my concerns is that when we walk in public, I find that most girls are more physically attractive than her. Is that a bad sign ?
Let me also share my experience with my FOC. When I was still looking for a partner, I took his advice. He kept telling me that I should focus on the inside beauty because that is what will last forever .... etc etc. when I took his advice and got engaged, i started having the concern of physical attraction, so i went back to him for reassurance. Surprisingly, the first thing he asked about is whether I liked how she looks like. I was about to talk about her inside beauty, but again, he insisted on her external appearance !!!
Please pray for me.
Godlovedme, when your father of confession asked you about your fiance's external beauty in your eyes, what did you say?
I don't want to give you the wrong advice, but if you do find her pretty, really pretty and are not sexually atttracted, yet you admire and like her inner beauty, then it does look quite promising. In fact, many would even envy you, because there is a sense of purity of heart in what you have together. That's a good thing.
But if you don't find her attractive or pretty, I would be a tad bit concerned.
You are a mature guy. To be engaged already, you must be. But we are therefore all assuming that you do not find your fiancé attractive. At all.
Sometimes someone will say to me, 'That person on TV is attractive', and I will say, 'I don't find her so'. Indeed if we look carefully at anyone of us we are all liable to be criticised for various imperfections. Some consider THIS nose attractive, others find it too long or too short. Our appreciation of 'beauty' is almost entirely culturally conditioned. There are African cultures which force feed large quantities of milk to their daughters so that they grow fat, and this is considered beautiful. In our own failing Western culture the media has made a cult of the ultra-thin. But beauty is not a matter of cultural conditioning, and we must as Orthodox Christians, to a great extent look beyond mere non-Christian culture.
In times past in England a man might chooses as a wife someone who was perhaps plain, but who had showed herself a good manager of a household, and who offered the prospect to being a good mother and companion. This does not mean that physical attraction did not exist, but it was and is one aspect of being attracted to a PERSON.
When my wife looks at me she no longer sees the extremely handsome young man I was (not!). But she sees her husband of 21 years. She is still attracted to me, and to her, but it is not a matter of bare physical appearance, nor was it ever. If you put me in a line up and asked her to pick the most handsome man I guess she would not pick me, unless the line up was made up of some pretty odd looking people! But marriage is not about bare physical appearance.
Nevertheless, IT IS ONE ASPECT, but not as the world looks at things. To be attracted to a person is not to look only at the externals, indeed the externals are given a radiance by that which is within, or become repugnant by that which is within. The externals only have bare value when we do not know the person at all, and therefore they should not be given much weight. We look across a room and see a very attractive woman, but she opens her mouth and all manner of profanity come forth. Is the woman attractive to an Orthodox Christian or not? I would say not. The plainer woman whom we ignored is carefully making sure that all of the older people have been given some food to eat and we engage in conversation. Her plain-ness (if we may dare say such a thing about one created in the image of God) is transformed by her inner beauty even while the inner ugliness of the other woman darkens her outward appearance.
If we have entered a relationship of love then the external appearance, though it does not change objectively, is transformed by what we find within. We are not able to separate the external appearance from the personhood of the one we have entered a relationship with. I could not easily tell you what I think about my wife's appearance after 21 years. It is enough to say 'she is my wife'. No other question could be asked. I could not answer the question, what do you think of her mere physical appearance. It is impossible to separate her appearance from her person, and the person she is, is my wife, united with me in every way.
So I am not sure that it is necessary to consider whether a fiancee is externally beautiful. Rather I believe we ask ourselves whether we want to be with THIS PERSON, with the whole package, for the rest of our lives. If we cannot imagine ourselves living in complete intimacy with THIS PERSON, irrespective to some extent of their objective appearance, then there is cause for hesitancy and caution. We are not comparing this person with others, we should not say, well she is not as beautiful as X or Y. We should be comparing the state of spending the rest of our lives with her and the state of not spending the rest of our lives with her. If we end up thinking that we could actually care less then there is also cause for hesitancy.
If you think that your fiancee is pretty, or even pretty enough, then that is fine. I think of all the people I know who have married and I might not find any of their partners beautiful, some I might find attractive, others less attractive, and some not attractive at all. BUT THIS DOES NOT MATTER. I have not married them. There was something about each of those people which attracted the other, AND IT WAS NOT OBJECTIVE BEAUTY but a subjective attraction.
Do YOU find your fiancee attractive? Not from an objective point of view, but overall. Do you find THIS PERSON attractive. In a Western culture this would mean that you like to walk holding her hand. You like to sit close to her. If she takes your hand you feel special. You have a photo of her in your wallet. You share food with her without thinking 'this will spread germs'.
It must be said that there are people we like and appreciate as friends but somewhere inside we do find them physically ugly, or very overweight and we are not attracted to them in any physical sense, even while we would give them a chaste hug if they needed it. We love them as persons but we do not feel a sense of attraction to the 'whole personal package'. But there are many other people who are not as 'attractive' as a super model (I don't find super models attractive I am afraid) but who are attractive enough to US, there are many people who are not super-slim, and are carrying a few extra pounds, but we find them attractive nevertheless. We should not think that we must seek out either physical perfection (what is that?) or reject everything else as physical deformity. In fact just as most people are bearing some level of mental and emotional illness (in my experience) and are not mentally and emotionally perfect, so most people are not objectively and absolutely physically beautiful. So the question is whether WE find THIS PERSON attractive, not whether our friend does, nor whether we find THIS PERSON as physically attractive as someone on TV. THAT PERSON might be quite unattractive as a PERSON even though he or she might have an outward beauty of form.
So I guess I am suggesting that if you love THIS PERSON as a person, and if YOU enjoy being with HER, and if you find that to hold her hand (if that is culturally appropriate in your situation), or to sit beside her, or to share a meal with her, are all things that produce a greater sense of wanting to be WITH HER then this is physical attraction. It is entirely false to consider that we can only have sexual relations with those we consider outstandingly and objectively beautiful. It does not work like that. It is not meant to work like that. True sexual intimacy is but one important aspect of personal intimacy. If you wish and desire to be in an intimate union with this person then the aspect of sexual intimacy will work itself out. It is built on the relationship of openness, of humour and self-deprecation which should be being established during the engagement. If you are not becoming entirely comfortable with THIS PERSON then there is also a cause for hesitancy.
You will perhaps be with this person in sickness, and in poverty and in distress. Are you able to bear with all these things with THIS PERSON. When your wife is being sick and you have to hold the bowl it requires a true intimacy. Physical attraction is not the lasting basis for such self-less love. But the PERSONAL attraction must always be there. Why else would a person bear with all of the difficulties of marriage? It is because I choose to be with THIS PERSON as long as I live.
This is the expression of the PERSONAL attraction. We choose this PERSON. We commit to THIS PERSON. If we only choose an outward appearance then what are we left with when it fades? It is like worshipping God only for the things He gives us. It is an empty worship. Just as a marriage based only on appearance is a fragile thing and not likely to last. But there is a sense in which we do love God because of the things He gives, or rather because HE is the GIVER. And so we also love the one we marry, not because of how they look, but because it is SHE or HE who looks as SHE or HE looks.
We love the funny nose because it is HIS or HER funny nose. We love the extra pounds because they are HIS or HER extra pounds. We love the eyes, the ears, the feet and hands not because they are the best possible eyes, ears, feet and hands, but because they are HIS or HER eyes, ears, feet and hands. If we do not, at the beginning, I mean. If we only see that they are defective eyes, ears, feet and hands. If we cannot see the PERSON beyond that and cannot truly love all of the one who is THIS PERSON then there is cause for hesitancy. If we CAN see and love the WHOLE PERSON then that choice is ENTIRELY PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE.
Father Peter
My response was a short summery of Father Peter's post. He gave me a blank stare (he probably didn't understand my Arabic), so I just told him without.
Lol just this morning my grandpa asked me, "Would you like to marry a guy with or without a mustache?"
My response was a short summery of Father Peter's post. He gave me a blank stare (he probably didn't understand my Arabic), so I just told him without.
TITL, sorry, maybe a stupid question, bu are you a girl?
I thought u were a guy :o
Sorry.. :-[
GB
I have a feeling I've just awaken GAY4XC from the dead.
Yes, I am female. Sorry to put some of you through shock.
when i posted this problem here in tasbeha, I was hoping that God talks to me through the replies I get. Your answers in particular were very helpful. I found your second post even more straight forward and understandable to people with lower spiritual levels like me. You highlighted exactly what I am trying to do. I want to reach the level to love her defects like funny ears, nose, mouth, extra pounds or whatsoever, just because those are her ears, nose, mouth, extra pounds etc. That is what I am struggling with during this early stage of our engagement. She is really a good personality so i don't want to waste this chance because of things that might not be very important in the future. Please pray for me.
Wheres GODlovesme when we need her?? lol
I am here reading this lol. I have refrained from posting because I have very different views regarding marriage (at least vastly different from 20-year-old girls ---> my age) and I would not like to be termed "WEIRD AND INSANE" because of them; I've had that unfortunate event occur before. I will say this though: I don't think that being attracted to a girl/guy should be the determining factor of whether you get married to that person or not. Sorry but that's just stupid. A lot of guys are attracted to me because I'm "gorgeous," (I'm not trying to be conceited, I'm stating what's been said to me), I rejected them all because they knew nothing about my personality, they only want to go out with me because of how I look. I found that really offensive as I care about personality in people more than anything and the fact that they only wanted to go out with me because they found me attractive was insulting to me because they didn't even care whether I had a great personality or not.
Zoxsasi, your posts are the most offensive ones I have ever read. You cannot objectify a woman like that. I was appalled by what you said. I am just speechless. I don't know what to say to convey the amount of anger you stirred within me with your insensitive comments.
But its like me dressing up as a police officer, then being upset that someone asks me to help them in a situation that only a police officer is suited for. If you present yourself in a certain way, you will illicit a certain response. Presenting yourself in worldly attire and makeup will bring about a worldly reaction.
For an extended period of time in my early twenties I dated a young woman who was very plainly dressed, almost to the point of appearing not to care about fashion. But on Sundays, when we would go to Mass (this was when I was still Catholic), she would put on her finest clothing, and do her hair very nicely, and all that. It was never showy, just very classy and presentable. At first I was confused until she told me "God sees me hanging around in my pajamas enough during the rest of the week. Sunday I am going to HIS house, so I dress appropriately." And you know what? She was right. And I was never more attracted to her (in the sense that Fr. Peter used the word in his excellent post) than when she would show up, eager to go to the Mass and be with God in His house (and nice enough to invite me to be a part of that). Things didn't work out between us, but that experience taught me a lot about what to look for in a young lady.
Why would you assume my gender based on sexual orientation?
I have a feeling I've just awaken GAY4XC from the dead.
Yes, I am female. Sorry to put some of you through shock.
oh sorry, didn't mean to offend u :(
It doesnt matter, guy, girl,
God bless ya sis!
Zoxsasi, your posts are the most offensive ones I have ever read. You cannot objectify a woman like that. I was appalled by what you said. I am just speechless. I don't know what to say to convey the amount of anger you stirred within me with your insensitive comments.
What exactly did I say that was offensive?
If I read over my posts, I was saying that its important to find your wife attractive (before you marry her). I didnt say sexually attractive, but she should not be unattractive in your eyes.
If you enjoy all the qualities this person has to offer, the other things will fall into place. Because you are having these thoughts of confusion, it means that you are seeing this person for who they are inside, which is most important. What is attractive on the outside (sexually) should not be a total issue, because one day, you will both grow older and lose your attractiveness. Then you will have left, the wonderful qualities that made you fall in love. Hope this helps. I'm married 16 years. Love him so much..inside and out.. Rabena m3ak
I would agree with everything you said. I just don't understand what I said that was so bad?
Can someone kindly tell me???
You made it sound as if when one is looking for a future spouse (specifically a female), you are going shopping. You were objectifying women in your posts.
Zoxsasi,
You made it sound as if when one is looking for a future spouse (specifically a female), you are going shopping. You were objectifying women in your posts.
Where EXACTLY did I say that?? If you had bothered to read the post , I said that ONLY AN IDIOT would do that!!!!!!!
I'm therefore saying the exact opposite: that YOU CANNOT treat a woman as if you are going out shopping. Its not possible.
A girl once told me that not only does she want to marry a virgin, but she INSISTED on it. She may get to know a man and find out that he is not a virgin. But she cannot keep on asking men these questions as if she's filling out a questionnaire. You cannot.
You don't go around and meet people and pull out a questionnaire and interview them - do you???
SO IM SAYING THE EXACT OPPOSITE! Its not done!
READ MY POST!!!
I said only some crazy arab would treat people this way.
I agree with Fr. Peter, you are marrying a person. You have to take the person as they are. You cannot change them.
MY ONLY argument IN ALL OF THIS, which you are welcome to object to, is that Im telling the OP that if there is a problem before marriage, most likely it remains after marriage. I.e. marriage doesn't nullify a problem. So, if let's say that i have a psychological problem with brown hair, and i marry a girl who has brown hair... marriage doesn't make her hair red, or blonde.
If I am Egyptian and my wife doesn't speak Arabic, and I love speaking Arabic and think in Arabic, then marriage won't make my wife bilingual.
That's all i'm saying. That's the ONLY piece of advice I've EVER hammered on here. That's it!
PLEASE READ CAREFULLY PEOPLE's POSTS BEFORE YOU ATTACK THEM.
Thanks,
I read every single word of your posts, FYI. You didn't make yourself clear and what I got from the post was that I was appalled at the kind of language you were using to describe the process of seeking out a spouse.
I just read it myself... i said YOU CANNOT GO AROUND DOING THAT.. I said it loads of times.
I said that ONLY someone working in Mubarak's regime would treat a woman this way. YOU READ it that way, and it was incorrect.
Rather than just attack someone, you could have just asked "What did you mean by that?".
Its better to take my post and quote me.. .
I'll quote myself again so u can read it (SLOWLY!!)>
Let's say you want to marry someone healthy. No medical problems whatsoever.
So, you meet a girl, you like her and you ask : "So, have you ever been ill before?"
She says "no".
But that doesn't mean she will never be ill - right? So, you ask a bit more... and then you find yourself stuck: You cannot go around asking all these girls if they've fallen ill or have the potential to fall ill, or if they have any serious medical conditions that runs in the family. You just can't go around doing that.. .can you? Its a bit weired!!
lol..
Let's say you wanted to marry someone beautiful.? So, u meet a girl, and she looks nice. But u don't know if she's just as pretty wearing a bikini as she is wearing a pair of jeans? Maybe her body isn't nice - what are u going to do? Ask her to show you photos of herself in every occassion possible - from Church-wear to swimwear??
You cannot go around doing that.... its just not done.
Unless you're some crazy Egyptian that works for Mubarak, there's no one sane that's going to ask a woman these things.
And like wise, can you imagine dating a girl who keeps on asking you on your salary? What if she said :"OK.. im glad you have a job, but let's say you're laid off, what do you think you'd be able to sell, in order to make me happy?"
What kind of dumb conversation is that????
What if she looks nice wearing makeup and you've only seen her wearing makeup - how do you know if she's going to be nice also without? Are you going to ask her?? What are you going to say?? "I'd like to see you without makeup, because...... because..... because.... i'd like to know how pretty you'll be in the morning if ever we get married?" Come on...
Be reasonable.
What if you wanted to know how she'll look if she gains a few pounds of weight after pregnancy - what are you going to ask her? "Listen babe, do me a favour, i just want to put this up the flag pole and see which way it flies. Could you put this pillow under your shirt and give me a turn so I can what I have to live with if ever you get fat?"
This is nonsense.
Only some idiot working for Colonel Gadaffi would ask a girl this.
I'd rather you didn't. I got offended enough the first time around >:(
excuse me, but you accused me publicly here.. and i've explained and re-quoted the same message again for you.
At least you could have the DECENCY to read it again and see where you've misunderstood!! But to stay that you found it offensive, means that YOU ACTUALLY think that I'm promoting men in treating women like objects....
READ IT AGAIN SLOWLY!!!