how about someone who is a murderer?? after repentance is he/she still a murderer? how about someone who lied in the past and has repented?.. can we continue to consider him/her a lier after repentance? giving virginity away before marriage is not any less sinful than hating somebody. once forgiven, God no longer remembers. why should we?... we know who is the accuser... the devil, not God! when we continue to remember the sins for which one has repented we side with the devil, not with the merciful God. looking for the physical proof of virginity is hypocrisy and selfishness for we are all guilty of the sexual sin before marriage, coz we all have sinned in our minds, at least once, and that's just as bad as losing virginity! why idolise the physical mark as if this is all it matters??.. what about someone who, in a time of depression, has attempted suicide an was left with permanent physical scars? do we write them of after they repent just because they bear the scars, despite repenting?.. are they less beautiful?
Hosea was told by God to go and marry a prostitute... how about that??.. what else is love about if not about condoning wrongdoing?.. bottomline is: virginity (and lack of it) before marriage means nothing if the spirit is unregenerate! we must not put the cart before the horse.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130850#msg130850 date=1297898554] If we still see a person, after their baptism AND repentance as a prostitute, then we are the ones living in our sinful nature. The other person is living in God's grace. If we CANNOT see them as "clean" - and accept them as if they are "CLEAN" - in every sense, then its hypocrisy.
That's totally unChristian.
But all this calls for God's Grace. There's a story in the Bible of a prophet whom God told to marry a Prostitute!!!!!
It was to show how God accepts us to be His bride despite our sins, despite our filthiness.. how He has cleansed us and accepted us.
As an extension to what user00 is saying.. no I'm kidding.
Zoxsasi, no offense, but you assume too much. Which part of my post led you to think that I treat sinners as sinners? Quote me :P (sound familiar?)
We shouldn't condemn people, EEEVEN if they haven't repented.
Let's get this straight - Saint Paul oversaw the execution of Saint Steven. You agree? And you are saying that in the eyes of the People, he is still a murderer?
Then why did the Apostles & Disciples accept him as one of them?
That's not fair. You can't compare Egyptians with idle Apostles. When I said St. Paul is a murderer, I meant his history proves that he is a murderer. It's the truth. I never said he was a sinner. Murderers can go to heaven.
Repentance doesn't change the mind's of people. As Mina said, it doesn't "undo" an action; it just erases it before GOD. People's perspective wont change.
I never said I thought it was right to have sinful perspectives on people. You're assuming I think that.
Refusing to marry a person who smokes or isn't a virgin isn't condemning them. It's a means of watching out for your own salvation and making sure your kids are brought up in a Godly house. If one spouse is weak, theyre both weak.
If a girl or guy wasn't faithful before marriage, what makes you think they will be after marriage?
You're saying the person repented and we should forget their actions. While we can't look at people in sinful ways, we can't just assume everyone is a saint. Their repentance may or may not be accepted. That's not for us to judge, or know.. but at the saaaaaame time, we still need to be careful when choosing a spouse. "Bad company curropts good morals". Since we're not God, we can't tell if a repented sinner is bad company or not, so we just avoid them altogether. Our salvation should be #1 priority in our lives. If someone MIGHT or might not be a stumbling block for me, I should avoid them.
Better to be safe than sorry.
Oh and,
He says to TITL: "TITL, whatever I have made clean, DO NOT CALL COMMON".
God doesn't call me TITL.
Yesterday people thought I was a guy. I'm just clearing it out that my name isn't really TITL. Sorry to put some of you through shock---again.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10674.msg130853#msg130853 date=1297899295] who said they are unclean........other just have the RIGHT to say NO!!!
it can't be unchristian...our whole faith is based on our freewill to choose Christianity or not.
There's a difference, that YOU have to work on yourself (between you and yourself)
If you reject a person because they had a child outside of wedding, had AIDS, STD's whatever, that's your choice. I cannot judge you.
But if they do not, and you reject them because of their past DESPITE the fact that they've repented, and you are rejecting them ONLY because they are not a virgin - then this is self righteousness. It means you are still seeing them as unclean.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130857#msg130857 date=1297899469] There's a difference, that YOU have to work on yourself (between you and yourself)
If you reject a person because they had a child outside of wedding, had AIDS, STD's whatever, that's your choice. I cannot judge you.
But if they do not, and you reject them because of their past DESPITE the fact that they've repented, and you are rejecting them ONLY because they are not a virgin - then this is self righteousness. It means you are still seeing them as unclean.
i am with you....and i am on the side of forgiving them....but i can't deny others' right to not to accept them.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg130856#msg130856 date=1297899450] As an extension to what user00 is saying.. no I'm kidding.
Zoxsasi, no offense, but you assume too much. Which part of my post led you to think that I treat sinners as sinners? Quote me :P
Hi,
I guess this part:
Repentance is only good for your spiritual life, but if you were a prostitute, you still are in the eyes of people. Nothing will change that- not even repentance.
St. Moses the Strong and St. Paul are still a murderers.
Did you interview these people, or is this something that you know to be true as one of them?
That's not fair. You can't compare Egyptians with idle Apostles. When I said St. Paul is a murderer, I meant his history proves that he is a murderer. It's the truth. I never said he was a sinner. Murderers can go to heaven.
Actually, you are meant to compare yourself to Christ, not even to Apostles.
Repentance doesn't change the mind's of people. As Mina said, it doesn't "undo" an action; it just erases it before GOD. People's perspective wont change.
Then these people are living in their old nature. You should remind them: What God has made clean, do not call unclean.
I never said I thought it was right to have sinful perspectives on people. You're assuming I think that.
I never used the word sinful...
Refusing to marry a person who smokes or isn't a virgin isn't condemning them. It's a means of watching out for your own salvation and making sure your kids are brought up in a Godly house.
I thought if they repented they are virgins again? I thought that this is the best person to bring your kids with? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the adulteress who cleaned Christ's feet? She seemed to be more attached to Christ and honoured him than the pharisees and disciples.
If one spouse is weak, theyre both weak.
If a girl or guy wasn't faithful before marriage, what makes you think they will be after marriage?
Again, you are clearly refusing to accept their repentance.
by the way, i just thought I'd point this out... the original question has been answered and what we are now talking about has absolutely nothing to do with what he was asking.
perhaps we should take this discussion elsewhere, discontinue it, or lock the thread?
the person we consider marring we must first and foremost be in love with. and if we do love that person, we are not only willing to overlook their previous mistakes but love them as they are. selecting someone on the basis of performance is not godly, it is the way the world works. we have been brainwashed by the world we live in. god has come down to earth to change this thinking and we should embrace his ways.
If a girl or guy wasn't faithful before marriage, what makes you think they will be after marriage?
I totally disagree with this. Concider 2 situations: 1: someone who was chaste physically speaking, yet sinned in his/her mind and heart and was impure constantly and entered marriage like this. 2: someone who wasn't faithfull before marriage due to whatever circumstances (and weakness is something that can happen to ANYONE), yet repented, poured his/her heart out before abouna and God and lived with a more pure heart than 99% of the people in church, and in this state he/she entered a marriage.
Who would you prefer? Do you really think that faithfullness (physically) before marriage is a guarantee whatsoever to what may happen after marriage?? Isn't the current spiritual condition and purity the future spouse is in not by far more important? Do you have any how idea how many young guys struggle with sexual sin without actually loosing their virginity? How come (as was previously) said we put so much stress on a physical scar, when the spiritual scars could be much deeper and worse? How come we all just point to the fact that we as Egyptians can't accept that? That's not an excuse, we all have a choice to not follow this mentality. It's in fact full of hypocrisy in my opinion.
I wasn't referring to only physical faithfulness, although it's what I was replying to in regard to Zoxsasi's post. Mental unfaithfulness won't change after marriage either. A habit or action before marriage won't disappear after marriage without great effort. If people think marriage will change them as a person, mentally or physically, then they're absolutely wrong.
I agree with your points. I don't think the Egyptian mentality is right either. At the same time, I think it's better for us to always choose the safer route when given any options.
We need to look out for our salvation. We have to be selfish.
Compromises can get us in a lot of trouble when not thought out and planned properly.
someone who was chaste physically speaking, yet sinned in his/her mind and heart and was impure constantly and entered marriage like this.
How would you know if a person has sinful thoughts? We don't! Which is why I'm saying we have to avoid all kinds of stumbling blocks. Praying can reveal what eyes cannot see. You can quote me.
you would never be able to do this satisfactorily. however, the thought of it, on its own, is alarmingly disturbing!! the name for it is: CONTROL FRICK' you might as well stick with electronic gadgets, you will then be able to read all the software it makes them 'think'. ;)
A quote from His Holiness: "Repentance makes virgins out of adulterers"
By searching repentance from amongst the Church Fathers I found this recurring theme. I would copy all those quotes here but they basically say what His Holiness says. We see this also in Scripture and St. Cyril of Jerusalem in his Catechetical Lectures says:
But perhaps even among women some one will say, I have committed fornication, and adultery, I have defiled my body by excesses of all kinds: is there salvation for me? Turn thine eyes, O woman, upon Rahab, and look thou also for salvation; for if she who had been openly and publicly a harlot was saved by repentance, is not she who on some one occasion before receiving grace committed fornication to be saved by repentance and fasting?
Once an adulterer or fornicator repents there is no remembrance of their sin by God. There may be a physical chastisement, but ultimately God wipes away the sin. This is not to say that if I have sinned I should forget about my own sin. It is good to remember our sins lest we become haughty and prideful.
St. Moses the Strong won the crown of Virginity. He lived as a virgin from his repentance. We all know the story of how during his confession an angel appeared with a board with his sins written on them and as he confessed each sin was erased. Even though this happened he did die by the sword according to the murders he had committed before. However, he certainly will not be judged for the murders he committed
I'll go out on a limb and say that there is nothing wrong with looking only to marry a virgin, however, in saying this we must keep in mind that someone who has committed this sin and has repented is now a virgin. If they have repented from their sin it is not for us to remember it and then not accept them. They have now become a virgin. It is hypocrisy to hold against someone what God himself no longer holds against them.
Someone who has truly repented should be accepted. St. Moses the Strong was accepted as a monk though he was previously a great sinner. St. Isidore (the Abbot) didn't say "Well you've sinned so much, and we know you won't change after entering into monastacism"
the point i was trying to make is: be more bothered with the status quo of the person when it comes to purity, and don't be so disproportionately occupied with physical scars that may have come from a far history in which this person was far away from God. Even though you cannot see the inner depths of the person, you can still learn a great deal about the other person's spirituality and purity through observing, talking, and mostly praying. I'm curious as to which of the 2 options you would prefer. Obviously a third option in which one didn't have a history of premarital sex + purity of heart and thoughts would be the best thing. But i'm just posing the question for the sake of argument and to expose the wrong attitude our culture has. And yes, you have all the right to refuse someone for a specific sin he/she has committed (in the end, you are free to do whatever you want, just like how Zoxasi's friend has the right to refuse a woman cause she has no green eyes ;)). The question is whether this is fair if that person has truly repented and is otherwise the perfect match for you.
I would choose option two, but option two is never as clear as you put it. We can't tell if a person truly poured out their heart to God. People can say they truly repented, but words are words. Just saying.
The question is whether this is fair if that person has truly repented and is otherwise the perfect match for you.
If that's the case, and it's God's will, then I wouldn't reject.
If Doxsasi is married,then I think he is not in real good position to tell the still unmarried to disregard the life history of the wife or husband-to- be.If Zoxsasi is married, I would be curious to know if the issue of virginity ,provided he had upheld and honored it, did not play any role in choosing his spouse.Sometimes, one has to swallow the pill that they prescribe for others. The talk of one's spritual virginity is more important is pure hogwash.I do not believe humans are spritually virgin anyway.TITEA and Godlovesme , I concur with your posts.
Doxsasi's views are dangerous and Unorthodox. He has no authority to tell us to never mind about our pure moral lives.
[quote author=lightening link=topic=10674.msg130854#msg130854 date=1297899359] giving virginity away before marriage is not any less sinful than hating somebody.
This is a LIE.Stop misleading people.If you are a victim of this sin, deal with it,but never downplay its graveness as if it were trivial to recruit people for the devil.
[quote author=Mozes link=topic=10674.msg130887#msg130887 date=1297906664] [quote author=lightening link=topic=10674.msg130854#msg130854 date=1297899359] giving virginity away before marriage is not any less sinful than hating somebody.
This is a LIE.Stop misleading people.If you are a victim of this sin, deal with it,but never downplay its graveness as if it were trivial to recruit people for the devil.
I agree.....they are 2 different sins that have totally different consequences and directions on earth.
My priest told me once that virginity is not only physical but it is spiritual as well. for example if someone who has never actually committed the physical act of fornication, but is always looking at the opposite sex lustfully and pornography, etc, that person is not a virgin! but on the contrary, a person who may have commited the physical act of fornication AND has repented, then they are considered virgins. Therefore when you take the blessing of St. Moses in the monastery, you are taking the blessing of a virgin saint!
AS LONG AS OUR SINS HAVE BEEN WIPED CLEAN BY GOD, THEN THAT IS ALL WE NEED! please pray for me and my weakness
[quote author=Marenhos Epchois link=topic=10674.msg130897#msg130897 date=1297921605] "Repentance turns adulterers into virgins"
My priest told me once that virginity is not only physical but it is spiritual as well. for example if someone who has never actually committed the physical act of fornication, but is always looking at the opposite sex lustfully and pornography, etc, that person is not a virgin! but on the contrary, a person who may have commited the physical act of fornication AND has repented, then they are considered virgins. Therefore when you take the blessing of St. Moses in the monastery, you are taking the blessing of a virgin saint!
AS LONG AS OUR SINS HAVE BEEN WIPED CLEAN BY GOD, THEN THAT IS ALL WE NEED! please pray for me and my weakness
Marenhos, i think you said it plain and clear. i like it! but you know, people will not take it in. they will try to push their point across without the slightest intention of analysing their own view for the purpose of learning, or expanding on or correcting what they know.
your line in bold is a fundamental principle of christian faith and it should determine whow we understand lots of things in life, including this topic.
enough has been said so far for everyone to learn, should we have the intention. but it seems that some of us here are 'monkey-ing around' as if they were obsessed with sexual virginity and the only 'holy' or 'condemnation-avoiding' way of having their mind fixed on sex is to pretend that you want to learn. this is an old trick to which only young and unexperienced and equally obsessed people fall.
my suggestion is: if you (whoever is monkeying around) are obsessed with sex, this site will not satisfy your mental cravings. the store for sexually obsessed is just a click away. not that i recommend it but i recommend you'd be honest with yourself and with us. we must fix our minds on Christ! not on our sinful desires. we must really do it not just read about it in the bible!
[quote author=anba bola link=topic=10674.msg130875#msg130875 date=1297903622] A quote from His Holiness: "Repentance makes virgins out of adulterers"
By searching repentance from amongst the Church Fathers I found this recurring theme. I would copy all those quotes here but they basically say what His Holiness says. We see this also in Scripture and St. Cyril of Jerusalem in his Catechetical Lectures says:
But perhaps even among women some one will say, I have committed fornication, and adultery, I have defiled my body by excesses of all kinds: is there salvation for me? Turn thine eyes, O woman, upon Rahab, and look thou also for salvation; for if she who had been openly and publicly a harlot was saved by repentance, is not she who on some one occasion before receiving grace committed fornication to be saved by repentance and fasting?
Once an adulterer or fornicator repents there is no remembrance of their sin by God. There may be a physical chastisement, but ultimately God wipes away the sin. This is not to say that if I have sinned I should forget about my own sin. It is good to remember our sins lest we become haughty and prideful.
St. Moses the Strong won the crown of Virginity. He lived as a virgin from his repentance. We all know the story of how during his confession an angel appeared with a board with his sins written on them and as he confessed each sin was erased. Even though this happened he did die by the sword according to the murders he had committed before. However, he certainly will not be judged for the murders he committed
I'll go out on a limb and say that there is nothing wrong with looking only to marry a virgin, however, in saying this we must keep in mind that someone who has committed this sin and has repented is now a virgin. If they have repented from their sin it is not for us to remember it and then not accept them. They have now become a virgin. It is hypocrisy to hold against someone what God himself no longer holds against them.
Someone who has truly repented should be accepted. St. Moses the Strong was accepted as a monk though he was previously a great sinner. St. Isidore (the Abbot) didn't say "Well you've sinned so much, and we know you won't change after entering into monastacism"
Please pray for me
MOZES:
I take it also that you must think that H.H Pope Shenouda III is also dangerous and unorthodox.
Which part of "Repentance makes virgins out of adulterers" is "Unorthodox" or "Dangerous". Furthermore, you treating the person as IF they are still adulterers or prostitutes AFTER they have repented and after they have been forgiven by God, either through baptism (i.e. if they were never baptised before) or through their repentance, is a grave sin what you are doing, and you are leading others to the same pitiful state you are in!!!!
What YOU ARE SAYING is extremely dangerous and UNCHRISTIAN, lest alone unorthodox!!!
I've quoted from the Bible, there are quotes from Fathers that I've used. What have you used??
Give me ONE thing I've said that is totally unbilical or unChristian??? WHAT????
Its attitudes like yours that should be corrected!!!!!! They reject people from the Church.
You go around telling others that repentance makes virgins out of prostitutes :"come, repent, repent, repent, come to God... Come to the Lord."... and in your sick heart, you cannot accept them!!! YOU DO NOT EVEN BELIEVE IN IT!!!!!!!
[quote author=Mozes link=topic=10674.msg130887#msg130887 date=1297906664] Doxsasi's views are dangerous and Unorthodox. He has no authority to tell us to never mind about our pure moral lives.
I am telling you that YOU have no right to treat an adulterer/ess as a sinner AFTER she/he has repented for it.
You cannot do that.
Its a SIN!!!
I dont know what u mean about your "pure moral lives"? its totally ambiguous. I don't know your personal details. Im just speaking generally, yet from scripture. Which part is erroneous in what I've said??
ITS A SIN (ON YOUR BEHALF) if you Still treat a prostitute as a prostitute AFTER she has been baptised and confessed her sins.
[quote author=lightening link=topic=10674.msg130854#msg130854 date=1297899359] giving virginity away before marriage is not any less sinful than hating somebody.
This is a LIE.Stop misleading people.If you are a victim of this sin, deal with it,but never downplay its graveness as if it were trivial to recruit people for the devil.
I think sex outside marriage IS a grave sin, but I think what lightening is getting at, is that there does seem to be a HUGE amount of obsession amongst middle eastern men/women about sex more than any other sin.
For the record, I quoted you before (and again now) because I largely agree with what you are saying in this forum.
Re: attraction, it is perfectly normal, moral, and acceptable that a man and woman should be attracted during their courtship before moving on to an engagement and eventually marriage. Failure to discover any natural sexual desire -- or let me call it 'chemistry' -- and yet proceed to marry based on some misplaced ideal of propriety or self righteousness is indeed a foolhardy thing to do.
My experience has been that the Bible does not always instruct us in the very most obvious things of life. I cannot find a Scripture which tells me to go to the bathroom when I need to, for example. It is complete common sense, so God more or less leaves it to you to figure out. That's why you've been given a mind. God chooses to reveal things in Scripture which are unclear, which are subject to common protest because of sinful hearts, where our hearts are likely to deceive us, or where intuition is going to fail. Sexual desire between men and women is a natural and holy thing created by God. Although we are required to restrict our thoughts and actions to God's standard of holiness, he expects us to use that as one of many ancillary deciding factors on who to marry. Nothing that you wrote is at odds with this. Women should also be selective in choosing a mate. I cannot understand the allegations on this board that you are "objectifying women." I just truly don't understand how on earth anyone comes up with that.
Re: being judgmental, I mostly agree with your position. On this point you are 100% correct: Acts 10:15 "What God has called clean, no longer consider unholy." While the verse may speak to foods or behaviors ("things"), the spiritual principle would be "agreement with God." Can you really be holier than God anyway? You cannot! Why not just lower your guard, express some humility, and see things God's way?
However I will disagree that desire to marry a virgin is a judgmental thing, per se. A person's heart could genuinely be excited for a virgin, much in the same way that you describe wanting to marry a person with red hair, or blue eyes. Or perhaps it bothers them in a personal way that they will not be "the only one." It is a preference only, provided the heart is right before God and that you are not disregarding another or lording a sin over them. As to whoever said, "once unfaithful, always unfaithful .." That is exactly the bad example I am talking about. That assumes God cannot change a person's heart .. presumptuous at best, no?
Without being inflammatory here, I sometimes get the idea that others want to raise the standard of personal holiness in such a fashion as to be conspicuous and call attention to either their own understanding or their own efforts. When Christ's love is in our hearts and we desire to please God through obedience, must we really pretend to be so much holier than that? It seems pretentious to me. Holiness flows from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ rather than from our own efforts.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130857#msg130857 date=1297899469] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10674.msg130853#msg130853 date=1297899295] who said they are unclean........other just have the RIGHT to say NO!!!
it can't be unchristian...our whole faith is based on our freewill to choose Christianity or not.
There's a difference, that YOU have to work on yourself (between you and yourself)
If you reject a person because they had a child outside of wedding, had AIDS, STD's whatever, that's your choice. I cannot judge you.
But if they do not, and you reject them because of their past DESPITE the fact that they've repented, and you are rejecting them ONLY because they are not a virgin - then this is self righteousness. It means you are still seeing them as unclean.
[quote author=seahorse link=topic=10674.msg130914#msg130914 date=1297939592] However I will disagree that desire to marry a virgin is a judgmental thing, per se. A person's heart could genuinely be excited for a virgin, much in the same way that you describe wanting to marry a person with red hair, or blue eyes.
But a woman who has lost her virginity yet REPENTED over it, or a man - how is that physically attractive/unattractive to someone? It doesn't make sense. You cannot compare this to the guy that liked green eyes. Liking green eyes is simply a physical attractive quality. LIKING someone who is physically a virgin is sexual.
I know these muslim girls who tell their husbands they are virgins. They are - physically. However, they have done every single sexual act possible other than intercourse. So, what are you going to do? Take out a questionnaire and ask every person u meet what they've done? That's ultimately NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!
What should concern you is their spiritual capacity - have they repented? Are they leading you to sin and unaware?? If so - why? Do they know God?? These are the questions you should be asking.
Or perhaps it bothers them in a personal way that they will not be "the only one."
That's something they'd need to discuss with their FoC. If someone is the best match for you, and they had sex with someone else - what business is that of yours? You were not married to them at that time - were you??? But if that is a problem for some people, then we can open a thread and talk about that separately... but I want to get to the bottom of this issue:
Repentance makes the prostitute into a virgin again. So, what difference does asking about someone's sexual past do if they've repented over it??? It means you are raising their OLD/DEAD man that died in baptism again. They have died with Christ and risen a new person. God does not hold their pasts against them, so why on earth are you so bothered about their past??
OK. .for example.. this girl was telling me about her ex boyfriend once, and she spoke of how they lived together as if it was natural. I'm not judging her at all. But from this conversation, I can see that to her, she feels that sex outside marriage was not even a sin.
The day she repents over it, the day she realises her sin, then this is what you should be concerned about.
It is a preference only, provided the heart is right before God and that you are not disregarding another or lording a sin over them. As to whoever said, "once unfaithful, always unfaithful .." That is exactly the bad example I am talking about. That assumes God cannot change a person's heart .. presumptuous at best, no?
You are totally correct here! I agree. That's awful! That's EXACTLY how Egyptians think. If she had done that in the past, what is stopping her from doing this again? Lol.. But God treats us as if we HAVEN'T done it - EVER.. so by the very fact of you (or anyone) using that statement of extrapolation, IS UNchristian.
If they have repented and confessed for this - its forgiven and forgotten.
You all know very well that in the west, especially in the USA, virginity isn't something people regard with any esteem. They do not know God. They do not understand that this is wrong. So, if they one day come to Christ, and want to live in Holiness and purity, are you going to see them in their new nature? Or in their old nature?
I do not understand ANY of you on here. IN BAPTISM, the OLD PERSON dies.. that sinful prostitute is dead. She / he comes out of the baptismal font cleansed, justified, and pure. You cannot go and treat them as if they the same person, for surely the spirit and the heart has been changed, and purified of sin.
Without being inflammatory here, I sometimes get the idea that others want to raise the standard of personal holiness in such a fashion as to be conspicuous and call attention to either their own understanding or their own efforts. When Christ's love is in our hearts and we desire to please God through obedience, must we really pretend to be so much holier than that? It seems pretentious to me. Holiness flows from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ rather than from our own efforts.
I cannot believe you actually "agree" with this girl. You are objectifying men.
So - that's hypocrisy.
And two wrongs don't make a right. So that means that you cannot forgive, and you are vengeful.
Are there any other flaws you want to share with us?
I have many flaws as you were so kind to point out. I never "shared" my flaws with anyone, it's you who has been naming certain flaws and attributing them to me. I have not denied them. Yet, it's not for you to know all of my sins, that's what my FOC is for. Thank you for judging me. Please continue if you so desire.
[quote author=seahorse link=topic=10674.msg130914#msg130914 date=1297939592] Without being inflammatory here, I sometimes get the idea that others want to raise the standard of personal holiness in such a fashion as to be conspicuous and call attention to either their own understanding or their own efforts. When Christ's love is in our hearts and we desire to please God through obedience, must we really pretend to be so much holier than that? It seems pretentious to me. Holiness flows from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ rather than from our own efforts.
Let me tell you how I see it...I struggle with my sexual desire A LOT (sometimes it gets so bad as to be on a daily basis). How is it fair that I have to struggle SO much to keep my purity while my future spouse may not have struggled as much to keep his purity? And once you defile yourself by committing a sexual sin, you are forgiven entirely yes, but your body is defiled forever. You cannot reverse the sin. While a person who has committed such a sin but is working on his or her relationship with God should be treated with a lot of respect in that they are sincerely trying to overcome the sin they had fallen in, we cannot view them the same as someone who has kept his/her purity. Why can't we view them the same? Simple. Both had to struggle. God will never give you something more than you can handle. While it's unfortunate that one person fell, it doesn't make them the equal of the person who has kept his/her virginity.
I agree with TITL, user00, JG, minatasgeel, and Mozes' posts.
Comments
we know who is the accuser... the devil, not God! when we continue to remember the sins for which one has repented we side with the devil, not with the merciful God.
looking for the physical proof of virginity is hypocrisy and selfishness for we are all guilty of the sexual sin before marriage, coz we all have sinned in our minds, at least once, and that's just as bad as losing virginity! why idolise the physical mark as if this is all it matters??..
what about someone who, in a time of depression, has attempted suicide an was left with permanent physical scars? do we write them of after they repent just because they bear the scars, despite repenting?.. are they less beautiful?
Hosea was told by God to go and marry a prostitute... how about that??.. what else is love about if not about condoning wrongdoing?..
bottomline is: virginity (and lack of it) before marriage means nothing if the spirit is unregenerate!
we must not put the cart before the horse.
If we still see a person, after their baptism AND repentance as a prostitute, then we are the ones living in our sinful nature. The other person is living in God's grace. If we CANNOT see them as "clean" - and accept them as if they are "CLEAN" - in every sense, then its hypocrisy.
That's totally unChristian.
But all this calls for God's Grace. There's a story in the Bible of a prophet whom God told to marry a Prostitute!!!!!
It was to show how God accepts us to be His bride despite our sins, despite our filthiness.. how He has cleansed us and accepted us.
We HAVE To treat others this way.
I 100% agree with this.
Zoxsasi, no offense, but you assume too much. Which part of my post led you to think that I treat sinners as sinners? Quote me :P
(sound familiar?)
We shouldn't condemn people, EEEVEN if they haven't repented. That's not fair. You can't compare Egyptians with idle Apostles. When I said St. Paul is a murderer, I meant his history proves that he is a murderer. It's the truth. I never said he was a sinner. Murderers can go to heaven.
Repentance doesn't change the mind's of people. As Mina said, it doesn't "undo" an action; it just erases it before GOD. People's perspective wont change.
I never said I thought it was right to have sinful perspectives on people. You're assuming I think that.
Refusing to marry a person who smokes or isn't a virgin isn't condemning them. It's a means of watching out for your own salvation and making sure your kids are brought up in a Godly house. If one spouse is weak, theyre both weak.
If a girl or guy wasn't faithful before marriage, what makes you think they will be after marriage?
You're saying the person repented and we should forget their actions. While we can't look at people in sinful ways, we can't just assume everyone is a saint. Their repentance may or may not be accepted. That's not for us to judge, or know.. but at the saaaaaame time, we still need to be careful when choosing a spouse. "Bad company curropts good morals". Since we're not God, we can't tell if a repented sinner is bad company or not, so we just avoid them altogether. Our salvation should be #1 priority in our lives. If someone MIGHT or might not be a stumbling block for me, I should avoid them.
Better to be safe than sorry.
Oh and, God doesn't call me TITL.
Yesterday people thought I was a guy. I'm just clearing it out that my name isn't really TITL. Sorry to put some of you through shock---again.
who said they are unclean........other just have the RIGHT to say NO!!!
it can't be unchristian...our whole faith is based on our freewill to choose Christianity or not.
There's a difference, that YOU have to work on yourself (between you and yourself)
If you reject a person because they had a child outside of wedding, had AIDS, STD's whatever, that's your choice. I cannot judge you.
But if they do not, and you reject them because of their past DESPITE the fact that they've repented, and you are rejecting them ONLY because they are not a virgin - then this is self righteousness. It means you are still seeing them as unclean.
But I think we can all agree that choosing a spouse is different and is much more intimate.
There's a difference, that YOU have to work on yourself (between you and yourself)
If you reject a person because they had a child outside of wedding, had AIDS, STD's whatever, that's your choice. I cannot judge you.
But if they do not, and you reject them because of their past DESPITE the fact that they've repented, and you are rejecting them ONLY because they are not a virgin - then this is self righteousness. It means you are still seeing them as unclean.
i am with you....and i am on the side of forgiving them....but i can't deny others' right to not to accept them.
As an extension to what user00 is saying.. no I'm kidding.
Zoxsasi, no offense, but you assume too much. Which part of my post led you to think that I treat sinners as sinners? Quote me :P
Hi,
I guess this part: Did you interview these people, or is this something that you know to be true as one of them? Actually, you are meant to compare yourself to Christ, not even to Apostles. Then these people are living in their old nature. You should remind them: What God has made clean, do not call unclean. I never used the word sinful... I thought if they repented they are virgins again?
I thought that this is the best person to bring your kids with? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the adulteress who cleaned Christ's feet? She seemed to be more attached to Christ and honoured him than the pharisees and disciples. Again, you are clearly refusing to accept their repentance.
perhaps we should take this discussion elsewhere, discontinue it, or lock the thread?
selecting someone on the basis of performance is not godly, it is the way the world works. we have been brainwashed by the world we live in. god has come down to earth to change this thinking and we should embrace his ways.
Your post saved our conversation. Hopefully.
Zoxsasi,
St. Paul is clean, but he's also a murderer. He's in Heaven.
The fact that he once was a murderer will never be erased from history.
(Also that this thread's question has been answered. Good call, user00)
;)
1: someone who was chaste physically speaking, yet sinned in his/her mind and heart and was impure constantly and entered marriage like this.
2: someone who wasn't faithfull before marriage due to whatever circumstances (and weakness is something that can happen to ANYONE), yet repented, poured his/her heart out before abouna and God and lived with a more pure heart than 99% of the people in church, and in this state he/she entered a marriage.
Who would you prefer? Do you really think that faithfullness (physically) before marriage is a guarantee whatsoever to what may happen after marriage?? Isn't the current spiritual condition and purity the future spouse is in not by far more important? Do you have any how idea how many young guys struggle with sexual sin without actually loosing their virginity? How come (as was previously) said we put so much stress on a physical scar, when the spiritual scars could be much deeper and worse?
How come we all just point to the fact that we as Egyptians can't accept that? That's not an excuse, we all have a choice to not follow this mentality. It's in fact full of hypocrisy in my opinion.
I wasn't referring to only physical faithfulness, although it's what I was replying to in regard to Zoxsasi's post. Mental unfaithfulness won't change after marriage either. A habit or action before marriage won't disappear after marriage without great effort. If people think marriage will change them as a person, mentally or physically, then they're absolutely wrong.
I agree with your points. I don't think the Egyptian mentality is right either. At the same time, I think it's better for us to always choose the safer route when given any options.
We need to look out for our salvation. We have to be selfish.
Compromises can get us in a lot of trouble when not thought out and planned properly. How would you know if a person has sinful thoughts? We don't! Which is why I'm saying we have to avoid all kinds of stumbling blocks. Praying can reveal what eyes cannot see. You can quote me.
you might as well stick with electronic gadgets, you will then be able to read all the software it makes them 'think'. ;)
By searching repentance from amongst the Church Fathers I found this recurring theme. I would copy all those quotes here but they basically say what His Holiness says. We see this also in Scripture and St. Cyril of Jerusalem in his Catechetical Lectures says: Once an adulterer or fornicator repents there is no remembrance of their sin by God. There may be a physical chastisement, but ultimately God wipes away the sin. This is not to say that if I have sinned I should forget about my own sin. It is good to remember our sins lest we become haughty and prideful.
St. Moses the Strong won the crown of Virginity. He lived as a virgin from his repentance. We all know the story of how during his confession an angel appeared with a board with his sins written on them and as he confessed each sin was erased. Even though this happened he did die by the sword according to the murders he had committed before. However, he certainly will not be judged for the murders he committed
I'll go out on a limb and say that there is nothing wrong with looking only to marry a virgin, however, in saying this we must keep in mind that someone who has committed this sin and has repented is now a virgin. If they have repented from their sin it is not for us to remember it and then not accept them. They have now become a virgin. It is hypocrisy to hold against someone what God himself no longer holds against them.
Someone who has truly repented should be accepted. St. Moses the Strong was accepted as a monk though he was previously a great sinner. St. Isidore (the Abbot) didn't say "Well you've sinned so much, and we know you won't change after entering into monastacism"
Please pray for me
the point i was trying to make is: be more bothered with the status quo of the person when it comes to purity, and don't be so disproportionately occupied with physical scars that may have come from a far history in which this person was far away from God. Even though you cannot see the inner depths of the person, you can still learn a great deal about the other person's spirituality and purity through observing, talking, and mostly praying.
I'm curious as to which of the 2 options you would prefer. Obviously a third option in which one didn't have a history of premarital sex + purity of heart and thoughts would be the best thing. But i'm just posing the question for the sake of argument and to expose the wrong attitude our culture has.
And yes, you have all the right to refuse someone for a specific sin he/she has committed (in the end, you are free to do whatever you want, just like how Zoxasi's friend has the right to refuse a woman cause she has no green eyes ;)). The question is whether this is fair if that person has truly repented and is otherwise the perfect match for you.
I would choose option two, but option two is never as clear as you put it. We can't tell if a person truly poured out their heart to God. People can say they truly repented, but words are words. Just saying. If that's the case, and it's God's will, then I wouldn't reject.
Sorry.
Don't get married.
Become a hermit instead.
[quote author=lightening link=topic=10674.msg130854#msg130854 date=1297899359]
giving virginity away before marriage is not any less sinful than hating somebody.
This is a LIE.Stop misleading people.If you are a victim of this sin, deal with it,but never downplay its graveness as if it were trivial to recruit people for the devil.
[quote author=lightening link=topic=10674.msg130854#msg130854 date=1297899359]
giving virginity away before marriage is not any less sinful than hating somebody.
This is a LIE.Stop misleading people.If you are a victim of this sin, deal with it,but never downplay its graveness as if it were trivial to recruit people for the devil.
I agree.....they are 2 different sins that have totally different consequences and directions on earth.
My priest told me once that virginity is not only physical but it is spiritual as well. for example if someone who has never actually committed the physical act of fornication, but is always looking at the opposite sex lustfully and pornography, etc, that person is not a virgin! but on the contrary, a person who may have commited the physical act of fornication AND has repented, then they are considered virgins. Therefore when you take the blessing of St. Moses in the monastery, you are taking the blessing of a virgin saint!
AS LONG AS OUR SINS HAVE BEEN WIPED CLEAN BY GOD, THEN THAT IS ALL WE NEED!
please pray for me and my weakness
"Repentance turns adulterers into virgins"
My priest told me once that virginity is not only physical but it is spiritual as well. for example if someone who has never actually committed the physical act of fornication, but is always looking at the opposite sex lustfully and pornography, etc, that person is not a virgin! but on the contrary, a person who may have commited the physical act of fornication AND has repented, then they are considered virgins. Therefore when you take the blessing of St. Moses in the monastery, you are taking the blessing of a virgin saint!
AS LONG AS OUR SINS HAVE BEEN WIPED CLEAN BY GOD, THEN THAT IS ALL WE NEED!
please pray for me and my weakness
Marenhos, i think you said it plain and clear. i like it!
but you know, people will not take it in. they will try to push their point across without the slightest intention of analysing their own view for the purpose of learning, or expanding on or correcting what they know.
your line in bold is a fundamental principle of christian faith and it should determine whow we understand lots of things in life, including this topic.
enough has been said so far for everyone to learn, should we have the intention. but it seems that some of us here are 'monkey-ing around' as if they were obsessed with sexual virginity and the only 'holy' or 'condemnation-avoiding' way of having their mind fixed on sex is to pretend that you want to learn. this is an old trick to which only young and unexperienced and equally obsessed people fall.
my suggestion is: if you (whoever is monkeying around) are obsessed with sex, this site will not satisfy your mental cravings. the store for sexually obsessed is just a click away. not that i recommend it but i recommend you'd be honest with yourself and with us.
we must fix our minds on Christ! not on our sinful desires. we must really do it not just read about it in the bible!
so, please stop monkeying around!!!!
A quote from His Holiness: "Repentance makes virgins out of adulterers"
By searching repentance from amongst the Church Fathers I found this recurring theme. I would copy all those quotes here but they basically say what His Holiness says. We see this also in Scripture and St. Cyril of Jerusalem in his Catechetical Lectures says: Once an adulterer or fornicator repents there is no remembrance of their sin by God. There may be a physical chastisement, but ultimately God wipes away the sin. This is not to say that if I have sinned I should forget about my own sin. It is good to remember our sins lest we become haughty and prideful.
St. Moses the Strong won the crown of Virginity. He lived as a virgin from his repentance. We all know the story of how during his confession an angel appeared with a board with his sins written on them and as he confessed each sin was erased. Even though this happened he did die by the sword according to the murders he had committed before. However, he certainly will not be judged for the murders he committed
I'll go out on a limb and say that there is nothing wrong with looking only to marry a virgin, however, in saying this we must keep in mind that someone who has committed this sin and has repented is now a virgin. If they have repented from their sin it is not for us to remember it and then not accept them. They have now become a virgin. It is hypocrisy to hold against someone what God himself no longer holds against them.
Someone who has truly repented should be accepted. St. Moses the Strong was accepted as a monk though he was previously a great sinner. St. Isidore (the Abbot) didn't say "Well you've sinned so much, and we know you won't change after entering into monastacism"
Please pray for me
MOZES:
I take it also that you must think that H.H Pope Shenouda III is also dangerous and unorthodox.
Which part of "Repentance makes virgins out of adulterers" is "Unorthodox" or "Dangerous". Furthermore, you treating the person as IF they are still adulterers or prostitutes AFTER they have repented and after they have been forgiven by God, either through baptism (i.e. if they were never baptised before) or through their repentance, is a grave sin what you are doing, and you are leading others to the same pitiful state you are in!!!!
What YOU ARE SAYING is extremely dangerous and UNCHRISTIAN, lest alone unorthodox!!!
I've quoted from the Bible, there are quotes from Fathers that I've used. What have you used??
Give me ONE thing I've said that is totally unbilical or unChristian??? WHAT????
Its attitudes like yours that should be corrected!!!!!! They reject people from the Church.
You go around telling others that repentance makes virgins out of prostitutes :"come, repent, repent, repent, come to God... Come to the Lord."... and in your sick heart, you cannot accept them!!! YOU DO NOT EVEN BELIEVE IN IT!!!!!!!
[quote author=Mozes link=topic=10674.msg130887#msg130887 date=1297906664]
Doxsasi's views are dangerous and Unorthodox. He has no authority to tell us to never mind about our pure moral lives.
I am telling you that YOU have no right to treat an adulterer/ess as a sinner AFTER she/he has repented for it.
You cannot do that.
Its a SIN!!!
I dont know what u mean about your "pure moral lives"? its totally ambiguous. I don't know your personal details. Im just speaking generally, yet from scripture. Which part is erroneous in what I've said??
ITS A SIN (ON YOUR BEHALF) if you Still treat a prostitute as a prostitute AFTER she has been baptised and confessed her sins.
[quote author=lightening link=topic=10674.msg130854#msg130854 date=1297899359]
giving virginity away before marriage is not any less sinful than hating somebody.
This is a LIE.Stop misleading people.If you are a victim of this sin, deal with it,but never downplay its graveness as if it were trivial to recruit people for the devil.
I think sex outside marriage IS a grave sin, but I think what lightening is getting at, is that there does seem to be a HUGE amount of obsession amongst middle eastern men/women about sex more than any other sin.
For the record, I quoted you before (and again now) because I largely agree with what you are saying in this forum.
Re: attraction, it is perfectly normal, moral, and acceptable that a man and woman should be attracted during their courtship before moving on to an engagement and eventually marriage. Failure to discover any natural sexual desire -- or let me call it 'chemistry' -- and yet proceed to marry based on some misplaced ideal of propriety or self righteousness is indeed a foolhardy thing to do.
My experience has been that the Bible does not always instruct us in the very most obvious things of life. I cannot find a Scripture which tells me to go to the bathroom when I need to, for example. It is complete common sense, so God more or less leaves it to you to figure out. That's why you've been given a mind. God chooses to reveal things in Scripture which are unclear, which are subject to common protest because of sinful hearts, where our hearts are likely to deceive us, or where intuition is going to fail. Sexual desire between men and women is a natural and holy thing created by God. Although we are required to restrict our thoughts and actions to God's standard of holiness, he expects us to use that as one of many ancillary deciding factors on who to marry. Nothing that you wrote is at odds with this. Women should also be selective in choosing a mate. I cannot understand the allegations on this board that you are "objectifying women." I just truly don't understand how on earth anyone comes up with that.
Re: being judgmental, I mostly agree with your position. On this point you are 100% correct: Acts 10:15 "What God has called clean, no longer consider unholy." While the verse may speak to foods or behaviors ("things"), the spiritual principle would be "agreement with God." Can you really be holier than God anyway? You cannot! Why not just lower your guard, express some humility, and see things God's way?
However I will disagree that desire to marry a virgin is a judgmental thing, per se. A person's heart could genuinely be excited for a virgin, much in the same way that you describe wanting to marry a person with red hair, or blue eyes. Or perhaps it bothers them in a personal way that they will not be "the only one." It is a preference only, provided the heart is right before God and that you are not disregarding another or lording a sin over them. As to whoever said, "once unfaithful, always unfaithful .." That is exactly the bad example I am talking about. That assumes God cannot change a person's heart .. presumptuous at best, no?
Without being inflammatory here, I sometimes get the idea that others want to raise the standard of personal holiness in such a fashion as to be conspicuous and call attention to either their own understanding or their own efforts. When Christ's love is in our hearts and we desire to please God through obedience, must we really pretend to be so much holier than that? It seems pretentious to me. Holiness flows from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ rather than from our own efforts.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130857#msg130857 date=1297899469]
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10674.msg130853#msg130853 date=1297899295]
who said they are unclean........other just have the RIGHT to say NO!!!
it can't be unchristian...our whole faith is based on our freewill to choose Christianity or not.
There's a difference, that YOU have to work on yourself (between you and yourself)
If you reject a person because they had a child outside of wedding, had AIDS, STD's whatever, that's your choice. I cannot judge you.
But if they do not, and you reject them because of their past DESPITE the fact that they've repented, and you are rejecting them ONLY because they are not a virgin - then this is self righteousness. It means you are still seeing them as unclean.
However I will disagree that desire to marry a virgin is a judgmental thing, per se. A person's heart could genuinely be excited for a virgin, much in the same way that you describe wanting to marry a person with red hair, or blue eyes.
But a woman who has lost her virginity yet REPENTED over it, or a man - how is that physically attractive/unattractive to someone? It doesn't make sense. You cannot compare this to the guy that liked green eyes. Liking green eyes is simply a physical attractive quality. LIKING someone who is physically a virgin is sexual.
I know these muslim girls who tell their husbands they are virgins. They are - physically. However, they have done every single sexual act possible other than intercourse. So, what are you going to do? Take out a questionnaire and ask every person u meet what they've done? That's ultimately NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!
What should concern you is their spiritual capacity - have they repented? Are they leading you to sin and unaware?? If so - why? Do they know God?? These are the questions you should be asking. That's something they'd need to discuss with their FoC. If someone is the best match for you, and they had sex with someone else - what business is that of yours? You were not married to them at that time - were you???
But if that is a problem for some people, then we can open a thread and talk about that separately... but I want to get to the bottom of this issue:
Repentance makes the prostitute into a virgin again. So, what difference does asking about someone's sexual past do if they've repented over it??? It means you are raising their OLD/DEAD man that died in baptism again. They have died with Christ and risen a new person. God does not hold their pasts against them, so why on earth are you so bothered about their past??
OK. .for example.. this girl was telling me about her ex boyfriend once, and she spoke of how they lived together as if it was natural. I'm not judging her at all. But from this conversation, I can see that to her, she feels that sex outside marriage was not even a sin.
The day she repents over it, the day she realises her sin, then this is what you should be concerned about.
You are totally correct here! I agree. That's awful! That's EXACTLY how Egyptians think. If she had done that in the past, what is stopping her from doing this again? Lol.. But God treats us as if we HAVEN'T done it - EVER.. so by the very fact of you (or anyone) using that statement of extrapolation, IS UNchristian.
If they have repented and confessed for this - its forgiven and forgotten.
You all know very well that in the west, especially in the USA, virginity isn't something people regard with any esteem. They do not know God. They do not understand that this is wrong. So, if they one day come to Christ, and want to live in Holiness and purity, are you going to see them in their new nature? Or in their old nature?
I do not understand ANY of you on here. IN BAPTISM, the OLD PERSON dies.. that sinful prostitute is dead. She / he comes out of the baptismal font cleansed, justified, and pure. You cannot go and treat them as if they the same person, for surely the spirit and the heart has been changed, and purified of sin. That's extremely WELL SAID!!!
Thank you for your post!
Godlovesme,
I cannot believe you actually "agree" with this girl. You are objectifying men.
So - that's hypocrisy.
And two wrongs don't make a right. So that means that you cannot forgive, and you are vengeful.
Are there any other flaws you want to share with us?
I have many flaws as you were so kind to point out. I never "shared" my flaws with anyone, it's you who has been naming certain flaws and attributing them to me. I have not denied them. Yet, it's not for you to know all of my sins, that's what my FOC is for. Thank you for judging me. Please continue if you so desire.
[quote author=seahorse link=topic=10674.msg130914#msg130914 date=1297939592]
Without being inflammatory here, I sometimes get the idea that others want to raise the standard of personal holiness in such a fashion as to be conspicuous and call attention to either their own understanding or their own efforts. When Christ's love is in our hearts and we desire to please God through obedience, must we really pretend to be so much holier than that? It seems pretentious to me. Holiness flows from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ rather than from our own efforts.
Let me tell you how I see it...I struggle with my sexual desire A LOT (sometimes it gets so bad as to be on a daily basis). How is it fair that I have to struggle SO much to keep my purity while my future spouse may not have struggled as much to keep his purity? And once you defile yourself by committing a sexual sin, you are forgiven entirely yes, but your body is defiled forever. You cannot reverse the sin. While a person who has committed such a sin but is working on his or her relationship with God should be treated with a lot of respect in that they are sincerely trying to overcome the sin they had fallen in, we cannot view them the same as someone who has kept his/her purity. Why can't we view them the same? Simple. Both had to struggle. God will never give you something more than you can handle. While it's unfortunate that one person fell, it doesn't make them the equal of the person who has kept his/her virginity.
I agree with TITL, user00, JG, minatasgeel, and Mozes' posts.