[quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg131329#msg131329 date=1298335194] I'm guessing that Marian wasn't referring to converts in her post.
Converts wouldn't be treated the same as Copts from birth.
I don't know why this subject has turned into a distinction between accepting someone who was never baptised and has converted to Christianity and someone who has always been Christian.
I would generally agree with what Fr. Peter said about both cases. Its a huge worry for someone who was Christian to have done these things. Its not normal - but I'm sure that even Christians can enter into tribulations in life that may take them away from God. Bad things can happen to us and push us away from God that ultimately will lead us to sin also.
If we do end up in that state, and we do repent for it, then we'd be in the best position to accept someone who also was far from God and repented.
Its awful when someone Christian, baptised, living in Grace, sins... that's terrible. But if you are considering such a person for marriage, I think it would be important to know WHY/WHAT led him/her to sin in the 1st place. Where was the voice of the Holy Spirit in their hearts at the time??
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg131329#msg131329 date=1298335194] I'm guessing that Marian wasn't referring to converts in her post.
Converts wouldn't be treated the same as Copts from birth.
If this was in response to my post, that wasn't a distinction I was making. I'm not saying there's no difference, but I don't see how even recognizing that difference would detract from my point.
I guess I was replying to your first sentence about being unsuitable for Coptic women lol.
I agree with the points you made, to an extent. God most definitely uses the weak for the Glory of His name, but that "uneasy"/"uncomfortable" feeling (as Marian says: "can't bare") isn't going to make a marriage successful. Unless one changes their mentality completely, that feeling will remain and living with that person will have it's disadvantages.
Hahaha. Well, like I wrote, that's the least of my worries. I've got to get right with God, then deal with other people.
I agree with you and Marian, by the way (though I would not necessarily follow her way of looking for a spouse). I just wanted to present the issue from a different perspective.
I definitely agree and respect your opinion. Although it's the idle way of living and thinking, it's actually really hard sometimes to follow when looking for a spouse. Personal beliefs and culture seem to get in the way most of the time. I'm not saying they contradict with religion, but it's just a weaker perspective (not necessarily a sinful one).
Btw, I'm looking forward to the day you become Orthodox. I'm excited! ;D
As for marriage, thats a whole different sitation. It is and will always stay a personal and subjective decision. For instance, if subject X cannot handle the past activities of subject Y, or keeps on being reminded of them, then it is not fair to accuse subject X of "judging" or "not forgiving" or "acting in an onorthodox way".
I agree and disagree with this.
If subject X cannot "handle" the past, then i don't think they should consider marriage with this person. That's true. But then again, I don't think they should consider marriage UNTIL they've followed DZHEREMI's advice: that is to be OK with God 1st and then with others.
Ultimately, it is a weakness on X's part in not accepting Y's baptism and repentance.
If X rejects Y because they dont like the other person's culture/looks/language/etc... its OK. Its a personal choice. But if they know VERY WELL - (I mean 110% sure) that Y didnt even know God, Y repented and was baptised, and X witnessed that, and yet X knew that Y had a sexual history, and STILL could not accept it, then this is a bit of hypocrisy.
Let me illustrate my logic below:
But if X rejects Y solely BECAUSE of Y's past (knowing very well that Y has been forgiven and has been made new again in Christ) and that Y's past has been forgiven and washed away, then I would like to ask the following question:
If X was a Coptic Orthodox Christian and he/she had also a past, but not as "bad" as Y's past, then what exactly would they like God to do with that? How would they like someone to treat/deal with their pasts?
Under this condition, it would make X a hypocrite. He/she also has a past that they've repented over, yet they cannot come to terms with the past of another person who may not have known God.
So, if X is a saint, then I would understand that.
If X is a person who also has fallen short, and sinned in his/her life, then I must admit, I find this attitude HARD to understand.
Like I said, X doesn't have to marry anyone. That's true. But then is X really living the Gospel?
Everyone here is talking about how hard it is to accept someone with a sexual history. But what I fail to understand is - are you all that pure that you cannot cope with someone's past sins that have been forgiven? Are you THAT good that you do not need to be forgiven either for ANYTHING?????
Are you that amazing that you have nothing to repent for yourselves !!??
Let me continue here for a second and post another question.
OK.. so X comes to terms that they CANNOT cope with Y's sexual history (despite Y never being a Christian in the 1st place and being baptised). That's fine.. so, they go off and meet other people.
What does X do afterwards? Does he/she ask EVERYONE they meet about their sexual pasts and the details?? Is that the way? What if Z (the same as Y but upgraded) hides some of the truth? What then?? What do u do??
I think its best to focus on your sins and your relationship with God and live in the TRUTH of your own state. this will help you see my point of view
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=10674.msg131319#msg131319 date=1298333171] In other words, let's not lose sight of what is really important in the situation: God's forgiveness and God's providence. Even if everyone rejects you, God doesn't. Even if you can't take a person's past, God does. So one relationship might not work out (or even start) due to your own or your potential partner's issues. That doesn't matter. Learn what you can from the experiences you've been through and move on. There's no need to argue about what God has already dealt with, through baptism, through confession, and through BEING GOD and seeing fit to use us, His beloved but woefully sinful people, to accomplish His will. He fulfills His purpose for each of us, and if that purpose includes being married, that's what He'll make happen. Exactly! I really like the way you clarified this point and I totally agree with you!!!
[quote author=zoxsasi] Im NOT saying you HAVE TO MARRY THEM.You dont have to marry ANYONE (!!). Its a personal choice. But IF you reject someone ONLY because of their pasts, where they were not Christian, and did not know God, and have now been baptised into the Church, then isn't that like denying what Christ has made clean?
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg131329#msg131329 date=1298335194] I'm guessing that Marian wasn't referring to converts in her post. Converts wouldn't be treated the same as Copts from birth. Thats right TITL, I was indeed not referring to converts, for the simple reason that their baseline situation is not comparable with those who were already christian. Zoxsasi, I would not use the word "denying", but in fact you are right and therefore it is indeed NOT relevant to take in account the period BEFORE someone had converted to Christianity.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg131395#msg131395 date=1298402388] I definitely agree and respect your opinion. Although it's the idle way of living and thinking, it's actually really hard sometimes to follow when looking for a spouse. Personal beliefs and culture seem to get in the way most of the time. I'm not saying they contradict with religion, but it's just a weaker perspective (not necessarily a sinful one). You are right again, the problem is in the implementation!! It might look paradoxal, but forgiving someone, is not equal to finding someone suitable as him/her potential spouse.
Please let me show it in the following example:
When a person... or better keep it personal, when I want to marry, I prefer a man who IS close to God and who is going to BRING me closer to God. It is definitely difficult to be assure that these two items are present when meeting a man, and moreover how those items will develop in future. Probably you will agree with me, that someone who always had been close to God is most likely to REMAIN close to God (although it's still not a garantee), however, this do make this type of man the most preferable choice, right?
[quote author=zoxsasi]You're not living with the person's past - are you? You're married to them in the present. ah, good question! Like I said before, I'm hoping I will meet the man who IS close to God and who will remain close to God and who probably can also lift my spiritual life in future. Therefore, in order to attempt to "predict" this FUTURE, it is crucial to have information about the PAST. And if information about someone's past is provided to you, it is almost irresponsible to ignore it in case of marriage. I might even call it rather naivity than christianity if you dont consider his PAST in answering those questions. Maybe therefore fr. Peter quoted St. Ephram in saying: a person with a sinful past (even if he repented) still needs to work double that hard to undo the echo of the consequences of his former actions.
Oke, now the most crucial step is PRAYER. A lot of prayer!! By both of them...
I really pray that many details are revealed to me about someone's past before marriage, but I also pray that God grants me the wisdom to be able to value this information in a rightouss and fair manner.
[quote author=marian6 link=topic=10674.msg131430#msg131430 date=1298418201] Like I said before, I'm hoping I will meet the man who IS close to God and who will remain close to God and who probably can also lift my spiritual life in future.
Excellent. Im sure everyone here would like the same.
Who then is close to God?
In my opinion, the one who is continually repenting is close to God.
Is it the one who thinks they have never sinned - is that person close to God? Or is it the one that lives in humility knowing that God's love has covered the multitude of their sins??
So, even if you want a spiritual person, the best one is someone who had a past that needed God's grace to raise them from the deadness of their sinful state.
Of course, its even better if they never even had a past, but then again, it would be even better if we never had one either (no matter how small our sins seem to us).
I really fail to see how anything I've said is unorthodox and dangerous. Nor how I am obssessed with sex. I'm speaking entirely from a spiritual perspective.
[quote author=Mozes link=topic=10674.msg130887#msg130887 date=1297906664] Doxsasi's views are dangerous and Unorthodox. He has no authority to tell us to never mind about our pure moral lives.
[quote author=lightening link=topic=10674.msg130854#msg130854 date=1297899359] giving virginity away before marriage is not any less sinful than hating somebody.
This is a LIE.Stop misleading people.If you are a victim of this sin, deal with it,but never downplay its graveness as if it were trivial to recruit people for the devil.
When someone is baptised and born again they are made clean and must not be considered unclean in any way.
This IS what the verse is saying. It is nothing to do with ritual prescriptions about food, or cultural antipathy towards non-Jews. It is to do with receiving as clean those whom God has made clean.
Father Peter
So, I guess you have to decide if you are a Christian - and if you are - do you treat others with such a view? If they had a sexual history, and have been baptised, then you CANNOT treat them as if they are unclean.
Its amazing how the most ignorant people have the loudest voices.. isn't it?
If you look even at the thread i pasted, its a thread I started as a question! I didnt even assume i knew what it meant, I asked beforehand someone who knows better than me.
I wonder what other incorrect advice that has nothing to do with orthodoxy has been distributed by such minds?
Comments
I'm guessing that Marian wasn't referring to converts in her post.
Converts wouldn't be treated the same as Copts from birth.
I don't know why this subject has turned into a distinction between accepting someone who was never baptised and has converted to Christianity and someone who has always been Christian.
I would generally agree with what Fr. Peter said about both cases. Its a huge worry for someone who was Christian to have done these things. Its not normal - but I'm sure that even Christians can enter into tribulations in life that may take them away from God. Bad things can happen to us and push us away from God that ultimately will lead us to sin also.
If we do end up in that state, and we do repent for it, then we'd be in the best position to accept someone who also was far from God and repented.
Its awful when someone Christian, baptised, living in Grace, sins... that's terrible. But if you are considering such a person for marriage, I think it would be important to know WHY/WHAT led him/her to sin in the 1st place. Where was the voice of the Holy Spirit in their hearts at the time??
Do they feel enormous regret about it?
I'm guessing that Marian wasn't referring to converts in her post.
Converts wouldn't be treated the same as Copts from birth.
If this was in response to my post, that wasn't a distinction I was making. I'm not saying there's no difference, but I don't see how even recognizing that difference would detract from my point.
I agree with the points you made, to an extent. God most definitely uses the weak for the Glory of His name, but that "uneasy"/"uncomfortable" feeling (as Marian says: "can't bare") isn't going to make a marriage successful. Unless one changes their mentality completely, that feeling will remain and living with that person will have it's disadvantages.
I agree with you and Marian, by the way (though I would not necessarily follow her way of looking for a spouse). I just wanted to present the issue from a different perspective.
I definitely agree and respect your opinion. Although it's the idle way of living and thinking, it's actually really hard sometimes to follow when looking for a spouse. Personal beliefs and culture seem to get in the way most of the time. I'm not saying they contradict with religion, but it's just a weaker perspective (not necessarily a sinful one).
Btw, I'm looking forward to the day you become Orthodox. I'm excited! ;D
As for marriage, thats a whole different sitation. It is and will always stay a personal and subjective decision. For instance, if subject X cannot handle the past activities of subject Y, or keeps on being reminded of them, then it is not fair to accuse subject X of "judging" or "not forgiving" or "acting in an onorthodox way".
I agree and disagree with this.
If subject X cannot "handle" the past, then i don't think they should consider marriage with this person. That's true. But then again, I don't think they should consider marriage UNTIL they've followed DZHEREMI's advice: that is to be OK with God 1st and then with others.
Ultimately, it is a weakness on X's part in not accepting Y's baptism and repentance.
If X rejects Y because they dont like the other person's culture/looks/language/etc... its OK. Its a personal choice. But if they know VERY WELL - (I mean 110% sure) that Y didnt even know God, Y repented and was baptised, and X witnessed that, and yet X knew that Y had a sexual history, and STILL could not accept it, then this is a bit of hypocrisy.
Let me illustrate my logic below:
But if X rejects Y solely BECAUSE of Y's past (knowing very well that Y has been forgiven and has been made new again in Christ) and that Y's past has been forgiven and washed away, then I would like to ask the following question:
If X was a Coptic Orthodox Christian and he/she had also a past, but not as "bad" as Y's past, then what exactly would they like God to do with that? How would they like someone to treat/deal with their pasts?
Under this condition, it would make X a hypocrite. He/she also has a past that they've repented over, yet they cannot come to terms with the past of another person who may not have known God.
So, if X is a saint, then I would understand that.
If X is a person who also has fallen short, and sinned in his/her life, then I must admit, I find this attitude HARD to understand.
Like I said, X doesn't have to marry anyone. That's true. But then is X really living the Gospel?
Everyone here is talking about how hard it is to accept someone with a sexual history. But what I fail to understand is - are you all that pure that you cannot cope with someone's past sins that have been forgiven? Are you THAT good that you do not need to be forgiven either for ANYTHING?????
Are you that amazing that you have nothing to repent for yourselves !!??
Let me continue here for a second and post another question.
OK.. so X comes to terms that they CANNOT cope with Y's sexual history (despite Y never being a Christian in the 1st place and being baptised). That's fine.. so, they go off and meet other people.
What does X do afterwards? Does he/she ask EVERYONE they meet about their sexual pasts and the details?? Is that the way?
What if Z (the same as Y but upgraded) hides some of the truth? What then?? What do u do??
I think its best to focus on your sins and your relationship with God and live in the TRUTH of your own state. this will help you see my point of view
In other words, let's not lose sight of what is really important in the situation: God's forgiveness and God's providence. Even if everyone rejects you, God doesn't. Even if you can't take a person's past, God does. So one relationship might not work out (or even start) due to your own or your potential partner's issues. That doesn't matter. Learn what you can from the experiences you've been through and move on. There's no need to argue about what God has already dealt with, through baptism, through confession, and through BEING GOD and seeing fit to use us, His beloved but woefully sinful people, to accomplish His will. He fulfills His purpose for each of us, and if that purpose includes being married, that's what He'll make happen.
Exactly! I really like the way you clarified this point and I totally agree with you!!!
[quote author=zoxsasi] Im NOT saying you HAVE TO MARRY THEM.You dont have to marry ANYONE (!!). Its a personal choice. But IF you reject someone ONLY because of their pasts, where they were not Christian, and did not know God, and have now been baptised into the Church, then isn't that like denying what Christ has made clean?
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg131329#msg131329 date=1298335194]
I'm guessing that Marian wasn't referring to converts in her post.
Converts wouldn't be treated the same as Copts from birth.
Thats right TITL, I was indeed not referring to converts, for the simple reason that their baseline situation is not comparable with those who were already christian. Zoxsasi, I would not use the word "denying", but in fact you are right and therefore it is indeed NOT relevant to take in account the period BEFORE someone had converted to Christianity.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg131395#msg131395 date=1298402388]
I definitely agree and respect your opinion. Although it's the idle way of living and thinking, it's actually really hard sometimes to follow when looking for a spouse. Personal beliefs and culture seem to get in the way most of the time. I'm not saying they contradict with religion, but it's just a weaker perspective (not necessarily a sinful one).
You are right again, the problem is in the implementation!!
It might look paradoxal, but forgiving someone, is not equal to finding someone suitable as him/her potential spouse.
Please let me show it in the following example:
When a person... or better keep it personal, when I want to marry, I prefer a man who IS close to God and who is going to BRING me closer to God. It is definitely difficult to be assure that these two items are present when meeting a man, and moreover how those items will develop in future. Probably you will agree with me, that someone who always had been close to God is most likely to REMAIN close to God (although it's still not a garantee), however, this do make this type of man the most preferable choice, right?
[quote author=zoxsasi]You're not living with the person's past - are you? You're married to them in the present.
ah, good question!
Like I said before, I'm hoping I will meet the man who IS close to God and who will remain close to God and who probably can also lift my spiritual life in future. Therefore, in order to attempt to "predict" this FUTURE, it is crucial to have information about the PAST. And if information about someone's past is provided to you, it is almost irresponsible to ignore it in case of marriage. I might even call it rather naivity than christianity if you dont consider his PAST in answering those questions.
Maybe therefore fr. Peter quoted St. Ephram in saying: a person with a sinful past (even if he repented) still needs to work double that hard to undo the echo of the consequences of his former actions.
Oke, now the most crucial step is PRAYER. A lot of prayer!! By both of them...
I really pray that many details are revealed to me about someone's past before marriage, but I also pray that God grants me the wisdom to be able to value this information in a rightouss and fair manner.
Please pray for me
i wonder who's gonna take that personally?
Like I said before, I'm hoping I will meet the man who IS close to God and who will remain close to God and who probably can also lift my spiritual life in future.
Excellent. Im sure everyone here would like the same.
Who then is close to God?
In my opinion, the one who is continually repenting is close to God.
Is it the one who thinks they have never sinned - is that person close to God?
Or is it the one that lives in humility knowing that God's love has covered the multitude of their sins??
So, even if you want a spiritual person, the best one is someone who had a past that needed God's grace to raise them from the deadness of their sinful state.
Of course, its even better if they never even had a past, but then again, it would be even better if we never had one either (no matter how small our sins seem to us).
I really fail to see how anything I've said is unorthodox and dangerous. Nor how I am obssessed with sex. I'm speaking entirely from a spiritual perspective.
[quote author=mnc_hnn link=topic=10674.msg131453#msg131453 date=1298479971]
wow...you've got personal issues.
i wonder who's gonna take that personally?
why are you commenting this??? ???
Zoxsasi, I think our opinions are finally approaching each other :)
my opinion HAS NEVER changed and has always been the same.
[quote author=mnc_hnn link=topic=10674.msg131453#msg131453 date=1298479971]
wow...you've got personal issues.
i wonder who's gonna take that personally?
why are you commenting this??? ???
I'm not commenting on this. ..
Oh you mean, why I'm asking if what i've said is unorthodox and dangerous??
LOL.. well you obviously seem to be agreeing with my opinion, so please tell me: what is unorthodox and dangerous about it??
[quote author=mnc_hnn link=topic=10674.msg131453#msg131453 date=1298479971]
wow...you've got personal issues.
i wonder who's gonna take that personally?
why are you commenting this??? ???
Actually I was aso wondering why mnc_hnn was saying this.
(Sorry for my bad english)
Doxsasi's views are dangerous and Unorthodox. He has no authority to tell us to never mind about our pure moral lives.
[quote author=lightening link=topic=10674.msg130854#msg130854 date=1297899359]
giving virginity away before marriage is not any less sinful than hating somebody.
This is a LIE.Stop misleading people.If you are a victim of this sin, deal with it,but never downplay its graveness as if it were trivial to recruit people for the devil.
That's funny, look what I just found:
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=9228;boardseen=1
Read Fr Peter's response: So, I guess you have to decide if you are a Christian - and if you are - do you treat others with such a view? If they had a sexual history, and have been baptised, then you CANNOT treat them as if they are unclean.
Its amazing how the most ignorant people have the loudest voices.. isn't it?
If you look even at the thread i pasted, its a thread I started as a question! I didnt even assume i knew what it meant, I asked beforehand someone who knows better than me.
I wonder what other incorrect advice that has nothing to do with orthodoxy has been distributed by such minds?