Hello all,
In my continuing struggle to learn as much about the practice of Orthodoxy as I can, I recently purchased a small copy of the Agpeya. I try at least to do the morning and and night hours, but am having a lot of trouble in the morning. It's not that I am not awake or anything like that (though I could learn to embrace discipline and wake up earlier, that's for sure). Right now and for probably at least the next few months I live with my father, who is not at all Orthodox or respectful of the regiment I am trying to establish and stick to. He's not purposefully disrespectful, it's just not really possible to find any peace and quiet in the morning in which to focus on God and pray to Him. Like this morning, I got maybe 10-12 minutes into the morning prayers (through the first few lines of Psalm 50) before he started yelling things to me (nice things, you know..."good morning", "how'd you sleep?", but still yelling and being a distraction). I ignored him but eventually the noise of his shuffling around, coughing, typing on his computer, etc. crept into my thoughts and I started losing my concentration. I pretty much stopped after the introductory prayers.
I know that this is a me problem, not the fault of others, and I know that we've had other threads on concentration lately. What I am more interested in is how to (try to) create the proper atmosphere for prayer in a place where you can't have all the essentials. I recently listened to Dr. Mark Girguis' talk on obstacles in prayer (on orthodoxsermons.org) and the parts about creating the proper atmosphere for prayer, and the steps involved in approaching God and making a good prayer really concerned me. I can't just not pray, I know that well enough, but at the same time I also can't have a space dedicated only to prayer (I have a very small room, and while I do always pray pretty much always in the same spot, that's more out of necessity and it's not a place consecrated for that purpose). I also can't have icons or candles, and there is not enough physical space to prostrate. It is pretty much just the Bible, the Agbeya, the Liturgy of St. Basil, and me against the world of blaring rock'n'roll songs, TV, coughing fits, loud phone calls, yelling, etc.
What do I do here? How do I create a holy atmosphere in such an environment while still being respectful of the fact that I am a guest in another's house? I don't like 10-12 minute prayers, and I don't like opening the Agpeya (or anything intended to connect me to God) only to close it again without really doing anything. God deserves more than that from me, and I want to give Him my best.
Comments
Have you tried talking with your Dad saying in the morning and at night i want maybe 30 min to 45 min where im not disturbed(you can't really expect him to sit silently but you can ask him that he not disturb you if your door is shut for example) About the icons you don't have to have a huge one like those in a church, a very simple or small one that you keep next to your bed or under your pillow is enough and possibly a small hand cross to hold while praying.
Im sure this wasn't very helpful but my two cents none the less.
God Bless you on your Journey towards Him.
Even monks who live in the desert are faced with distractions and disturbances and wondering thoughts etc.
Thats so true. Watch this video (start it at 7:25 min)
it has great advice
Thank you jydeacon for the video of Fr. Lazarus. I had seen it before, but I was not then where I am now.
Please pray for me, if you can remember me in your prayers. I am unworthy, and very much in need of guidance from God and help from you, my Orthodox elders. Thank you.
I feel so ashamed of myself.
Just curious, have you attended a Liturgy yet?
I apologize that I have nothing useful to add to this thread... as with all the other threads. No one has yelled at me yet, so looks like I'll be sticking around for sometime ;)
Actually Christs Servant is the one who deserves the credit for the video :)
Oops! My apologies. I was reading too fast.
Thank you, Christ's Servant, for the wonderful video. I have watched all the clips in that series that are available on YT. Father Lazarus is an inspiration to me, and it is always profitable to remember his advice.
You spend 10-12 minutes on the introductory prayers!? :o
I feel so ashamed of myself.
Please don't be ashamed, TITL! Let me tell you something...
You know how when you are a very small child, and you are making a nice drawing for your mother and father to enjoy and put on the refrigerator? (Or if you don't know this experience, you've probably seen it in TV shows or movies. :))
You sit down, you put all your crayons and pencils in a row before you, and you draw. Maybe you spend 2, 5, 10 or however many minutes coloring the sky and the clouds, and then you add the sun and make big lines for its rays to shine down on the people (or the birds, or the trees, or whatever is in your drawing). You get very involved in it, because you're creating a WHOLE WORLD and when you give it to your parents you want them to say "Wow! Look at this! You, my daughter/son, are the next Picasso! We're so happy and proud of you, and we like your drawing so much we're going to put it on the refrigerator so that we can keep enjoying it every time we see it!"
Of course, your parents will say that anyway no matter what you do, but that doesn't stop you from drawing the best darn picture you can for them!
I feel like, spiritually, I am that child. When I try to pray, I am trying to give my "Dad" (God) the best that I can...the most...you know, what REALLY comes from MY heart, so that I'm not just repeating what David wrote like I'm reading out of a phone book. And just like drawing that picture for mom and dad, it involves creating a world, because the day to day world that I am in is not at all conducive to prayer. It tries to keep me from God in big and little ways, so I have to spend that much more time just creating the environment necessary to talk to God in an honest and open way. Sometimes it doesn't even work and I end up leaving without taking much and I feel like a failure. I still pray at those times, and even if I only get through the Thanksgiving Prayer, it is a prayer and I am happy to have said it. But I know it's not the best I can do. That's why I made this thread. :)
My point is: I don't think that's anything that should make you feel bad. It means I am struggling a lot and failing a lot. How I would love to do the introduction to the hour in 2-3 minutes, feel on fire already, and have every word that comes out of my mouth shine before God like a brilliant masterpiece rather than a crummy, sloppy little kid's drawing! But for now, I do what I can do. No. :-[ This is still a way's off in the future, unfortunately. If anyone would yell at you for the questions you've asked, I would be afraid to ask any more questions myself. I couldn't see it happening, at least not in this very benign thread.
Since we're using metaphors, I'm like the little kid that broke dad's favorite vase, and cannot even look father in the eye. He wouldn't be impressed (as much) if I drew him a picture, because of the mistake I've made.
It seems like when I pray, I can't show God my love, or please Him, because I'm always ashamed of my wrongdoings.
Hopefully once I stop breaking vases, I can start drawing pictures :)
Please remember me in your prayers if you can.
I guess you can say it's a trick from the devil to stop me from praying, and unfortunately, he's won many battles. There were times when I couldn't pray, when I was supposed to, because of the mistakes I've done.
I don't think my analogy is safe for my (or anyones) spiritual life.
We should just stick with drawing pictures.
I listened to a sermon by Dr. Mark Girguis last night that really speaks to this problem that we both have. It is near the end of this this audio file that he tells a nice story of a son seeking to return to his father, though the whole sermon will be good to listen to and mediate upon. God knows we broke the vase, and if we can safely presume anything about God we can presume that He isn't happy about that. But I live in hope and assurance that He is happy when we come to Him and admit what we have done. David the prophet and psalmist tells us that a broken spirit is a right and unrefused sacrifice before God. That's good, because that's all I have to show for myself when it's just God and me, together in a small room, trying to make sure I won't break the new vase He's given me to take care of today.
And I think your analogy is OK as far as any analogies go. We do need to stop breaking vases and then we can draw the simplest pictures and then we can proceed to draw more and more complex and beautiful designs until our lives begin to illustrate the life of God in the world. There are plenty of mistakes we make even when we have begun to draw as a child. But at some point the Christian has to decide the direction of her life. Then we can start drawing.
(I think it is okay, because after all these are analogies -- when I pray, it is with the Agpeya, not with crayons.)
I guess it just feels awkward talking to Him after I've done wrong. I want to say soooo much, but at the same time I feel like I have nothing to say. He says "Ask and you shall receive", but I can't get myself to ask for anything!! Imagine after breaking dad's vase, the kid asking for $5. That's exaaactly how I feel! I have listsss of things I want from God, but I can't get myself to ask for anything.
Writing this post is making me really angry with myself. I want to change my feelings, but it seems almost impossible. It's so hard to look my father in the eye, even if 40 years pass. I can't seem to get over my mistakes and move on. Its ironic because I can move on pretty quickly once my earthly father forgives me.
You post was very comforting, dzheremi and I will listen to the sermon. Thank you.
Father Peter,
I can't stop breaking vases! I'm a stupid person. I feel like Samson after Delila tricked to kill him twice. Even after he knew what she was after, he still gave in and told her his weakness. After reading his story, I thought "no person can be that stupid; doesn't he have common sense?". But I do the same thing everytime I sin. I know the devil wants to destroy me, and I willingly let him. I. Need. Help. Sometimes I refuse to read certain psalms when the deacon passes them out because they do not apply to me. Psalm 25 for example, "Judge me O Lord for I have walked in my innocense" ummm I don't think so!
You have the blessed advantage over me of having been brought up in Orthodoxy, and it is in Orthodoxy that we are taught how to stop breaking vases.
Let me encourage you to read the book Unseen Warfare, if you have not already discovered it. It is one of the most important and practical spiritual books I have ever read, and I often return to it. It is by the side of my bed. Many of my own congregation also know it well and love it.
http://www.amazon.com/Unseen-Warfare-Spiritual-Paradise-Lorenzo/dp/0913836524/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299529274&sr=8-1
Father Peter
I'm kidding; I trust your taste :)
I will look into getting a personal copy.
may God guide us and have mercy for our many sins.
Just a quick note of encouragement for you, because I am heading out for the next few hours.
Another thing that I heard from Dr. Girguis (I don't think it was in the same sermon I linked before, but a different one on prayer) that really touched me is this piece of advice: "Don't change before you pray; change THROUGH your prayer."
I think he means that even though it is good to want to change before you pray, so that you can come to God as blameless and new and all that, it is also very unrealistic to expect that. It is like expecting to be cured of your illness before you go to the doctor to get treatment for that same illness! You (and when I say "you", I mean "me") cannot avoid the very thing that you need to be healed.
Yes, let us all pray to God for guidance and mercy. We have no other refuge.
I apologize for shifting this thread to myself. I do that a lot and people aren't yelling at me like they're supposed to (ahem, Father Peter)!
STOP SHIFTING THE THREAD TO YOURSELF!!!!!!
Regards
Father Peter
Unless he snores loud and that distracts your prayer ;)
(Btw that sermon by Dr. Girgis was amazing! I'm going to stop there before Father Peter really makes me cry)
Thank you Father, but this book doesn't look Orthodox!
I'm kidding; I trust your taste :)
I will look into getting a personal copy.
It is Orthodox. I think the Russian Orthodox church published it, but I'm not sure. All I know is my Father of Confession is very Orthodox and he was selling it at his church's book-fair so it's approved.
This book, however, is rooted in the traditions of the Desert Fathers, and has been through a series of revisions so that it has become one of the clearest guides to the Orthodox spiritual life I have encountered and it has certainly helped my own understanding of the spiritual life. I have found nothing in it which concerns me, other than that it illustrates how little I have grown as a Christian and what vast potentialities are offered us by God.
Father Peter
I really feel guilty and ashamed when reading all your posts about how much effort you do in prayer... may God bless you and please pray for me a sinner..
Probably I am the last one to give advise, but I just want to add something I recently heard from fr. Antonius Fahmy in his lecture about Prayer from the agbeya.
He said: whenever we have this sad, miserable or desperate state, the agbeya is able to guide our feelings and will help us to transform into a state of happiness. Therefore, some of the psalms are written in a way that the first few sentences are emphasizing the current negative feelings and after continue reading and praying, the psalm ends with a more positive change in feelings, stimulating you to change along.
For instance psalm 12 (1st hour): So, like fr. Peter said, And like dzheremy said:
Thank you for reminding us of this. Yes, it is good to pray the Psalms because they do often begin with an all to human sense of despair, and take us on a journey of discovering God's goodness.
These are also very useful and beautiful prayers from the Armenian tradition and well worth considering as the basis for reflection. They are a cycle of 90+ prayers by St Gregory Narek which are also full of penitence and ideal for this season, but move beyond repentance to worship. I commend them to all of us.
http://www.stgregoryofnarek.am/book.php
Father Peter
Let me encourage you to read the book Unseen Warfare, if you have not already discovered it. It is one of the most important and practical spiritual books I have ever read, and I often return to it. It is by the side of my bed. Many of my own congregation also know it well and love it.
Thank you, Fr. Peter, I was going to say something about that wonderful book. There is also a wonderful set of three courses that I am taking through the St. Athanasius Academy of Orthodox Theology in California that were drawn up based on the "Unseen Warfare." This is truly a challenging set of courses that teach and reteach the basic tenants of the Holy Orthodox Faith that inquirers and "cradle-Orthodox" alike can, have, and do take. These three courses are also part of a Diploma in Orthodox Christian Theology which goes on to explore Incarnation Theology, Liturgical Theology, Church History, etc. The courses are very affordable, and the school is extremely flexible in deadlines (essentially, there are none, just work at your own pace) and also very flexible on payment arrangements. I would stronly recommend this for anyone and everyone--it truly is beautiful! I've attached a link to the PDF course catalogue and contact informatino for the school here:
http://www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/Course_Catalogue-_Academy_-_Yes_2010.pdf
I truly hope and pray some of you will look into this and enroll in at least the first three courses so you may benefit from this as I and many others have.
I think you know that I am quite strict as well, and although there is a place for the mature to read a variety of books, with the guidance of the spiritual father, generally I do not believe that younger people should read things without advice.
This book, however, is rooted in the traditions of the Desert Fathers, and has been through a series of revisions so that it has become one of the clearest guides to the Orthodox spiritual life I have encountered and it has certainly helped my own understanding of the spiritual life. I have found nothing in it which concerns me, other than that it illustrates how little I have grown as a Christian and what vast potentialities are offered us by God.
Father Peter
Father Peter,
I hope you know that I was in no way undermining your authority or Orthodox-ness, nor did I mean to, nor did that even come to my mind. I was simply confirming that this is indeed an Orthodox book. I am very sorry if there is any chance I may have offended you-- I certainly did not mean it.
She likes to be told off!
I recommended the book to all my friends and bought a copy last night. It looks boring though. No offense.