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Am I responsible?
Hey everyone, I have a few questions concerning my role in the church. I have some friends who do not believe that the communion is the true body and blood. Being raised in a protestant church but having been baptised in the orthodox church, they have been taught that the bread and wine does not become the true body and blood. Ive spoken to them on many occasion trying to explain to them why it is the true body and blood of our Lord and they always seem like near the end they finally get it, but the next time I talk to them its as if I said nothing at all.
The problem is, they continue to take the communion in the orthodox church. Not only that, but this is the great fast, in which none should partake of the communion unless you are fasting, well, there not fasting and there still taking communion. When I tell them they shouldn't be taking communion if there not fasting or dont even confess its the real body and blood they say I'm so strict and i'm judging them and how God is merciful and he wont "send you to hell" because your not fasting and you took communion. I really don't know what to tell them anymore.. Is it my responsibility to tell them to stop taking communion unless there fasting and believe its the true body and blood? Or is it okay that they continue doing as they do as long as they just "dont understand" and thus wont be judged for it.
The problem is, they continue to take the communion in the orthodox church. Not only that, but this is the great fast, in which none should partake of the communion unless you are fasting, well, there not fasting and there still taking communion. When I tell them they shouldn't be taking communion if there not fasting or dont even confess its the real body and blood they say I'm so strict and i'm judging them and how God is merciful and he wont "send you to hell" because your not fasting and you took communion. I really don't know what to tell them anymore.. Is it my responsibility to tell them to stop taking communion unless there fasting and believe its the true body and blood? Or is it okay that they continue doing as they do as long as they just "dont understand" and thus wont be judged for it.
Comments
PK
I do want to tell the priest, but I know they would get upset with me, they would also think very poorly of me and say things like hes so judgmental and sticks his nose in everyones business, and he doesnt understand Gods mercy which is why he is so strict etc...
However, I find myself in a slightly similar situation, although not completely. PK, you said that we do not have the authority to tell anyone not to take communion - only the priest does. That sounds fair, but what about telling someone to leave the church? I go to a relatively large church. Many times random people (non-Christian) come to the liturgy and just sit there. From the little I know, anyone who is not baptized should leave the liturgy after the kiss of peace. Now do I have any authority to tell these random people to leave?
i am really pleased that you guys are bringing to light what it really means to be orthodox.
thank you.
PK
wow! these questions make me wonder if i should ever get near an orthodox church...
i am really pleased that you guys are bringing to light what it really means to be orthodox.
thank you.
Please, I was asking a serious question, no childish comments on this forum, saint Paul writes how serious it is to partake of the body and blood of the Lord in an unworthy manner, how it can lead to sickness and even death, these are my closest friends and I feel it is a responsibility of mine to at least tell them not to partake of it unless they are aware of what it really is.
As for non Christians being in our church that is entirely acceptable, it is the house of God and all are welcome, communion on the other hand is for the believers, theres a reason why Jesus only did it with his disciples and not even Judas who left right before Jesus gave his disciples his body and blood. We even say in our liturgy "The Holies for the holy" meaning the body and blood is taken only by those who have fully understood its significance, what it really is, and have humbled themselves, have continued in fasting and prayer and confessed and repented there sins. An unworthy manner is taking it without having any of the above, rather taking it as if its just a piece of bread an some wine.
1 Corinthians 11:27 - Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
Its not a joke guys, this is why it means so much to me
Now I am not saying we assign people the duty of looking for people who are not Christians and tell them to leave. But I think we should ask them if they have any intention of becoming baptized and learning about Orthodoxy. If they do, someone should teach and guide them weekly through the liturgy until the kiss of peace and then let them know they should leave. If they have no intention of becoming baptized or learning about the faith, I see no reason they should sit in the presence of the Lord simply because they like it.
I think the priest who baptized them needs to be aware that the people he baptized were not ready for baptism. He should have clarified these orthodox-protestant issues with them before sending them underwater. You do not have the authority to tell them that they should not be taking communion; this is the priest's job. I think you should tell him this, and he will deal with it accordingly.
PK
The priest that baptised them is awful. Eh da! I think you ought to report this priest. Seriously. If the priest tells you: "Well.. we baptised them because they were still growing in faith, and they are learning that this is the Body of Christ... but it takes them time" - this is unacceptable.
We are baptised WITH FAITH not with the potential to have faith.
We are baptised whilst renouncing Satan, not with the potential to renounce satan.
This is an ABSOLUTE disaster, and I feel TREMENDOUS anger at the priest who baptised them. However, I have even seen the same happen in my Church.
This protestant lady was baptised ONLY so she could marry her Coptic Orthodox husband. However, she IS trying to understand our faith - yet she is VERY vocal in her protestant views within the church.
Now... this is the way I see it. If you are a deacon, you have a responsibility to GUARD and PROTECT the Holy Eucharist. Right? That's YOUR JOB.
Meena-Ameen: Let me as you this:
As a deacon, if you are standing with Abouna as a deacon during the communion, and someone came up and spat out the Holy Body of Christ, would you let them then approach to take the Holy Blood??? I wouldn't.
I know I am not worthy of this sacrament.. I will NEVER be worthy of the Holy Communion, and I find it hard to judge others over it because of my own unworthiness , but this is now not about who is worthy and who is not. Its a position in the Church YOU hold. As a deacon, you HAVE To protect the Eucharist.
I would seriously put this to a bishop and make a formal complaint at the priest.
Then I would ensure, with all my might that these people do not receive the communion. They do not believe it IS the Holy Eucharist. That is wrong.
I met this protestant guy who became Orthodox who told me that it was people's faith's that activated the Body of Christ.. that turned it INTO the real Body of Christ, so even if you didn't believe it was His Body, it was OK to partake of it. This kid is still a servant in the Church. Amazing....
I really blame the priests for even baptising this guy.
The idea that the Holy Eucharist is not the true Body and Blood of Christ is certainly a dangerous notion. The Church has taught this from the time of the Apostles. Even Christ Himself, when He instituted the sacrament of Communion, stated in no uncertain terms, that the bread and wine were indeed His Body and Blood. It is good that you have drawn your friends attention to this and tried to correct their thinking. To further hammer home the notion, refer them to the Gospel of John, Chapter 6 verses 30 to the end. It is abundantly clear that Communion is partaking in the very true Body and Blood of Christ. The people's reaction further verifies this as many found this to be a 'hard saying' and 'no longer walked with Him'. If the sacrament of Communion was merely a symbol as some say, would people have left or found it a hard saying? And if Christ didn't really mean that it was truly His Body and Blood, don't you think He would have clarified and said, 'Wait a second folks, this is strictly symbolic. Y'all don't need to leave.'
I would definitely point this out to your priest though. He needs to know so that he can better pastor his flock. You are right, this is a serious issue and you should make no apologies for it. It is because you care for their salvation that you would even point this out. One thing that we need to remember, and that those outside the Church will never understand, is that we have something precious. Christ warned us not to cast our pearls before swine, and there is no greater pearl than Christ Himself. Many think that one can nit pick when it comes to religion. The Truth is not to be compromised.
Pray for me.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
The idea that the Holy Eucharist is not the true Body and Blood of Christ is certainly a dangerous notion. The Church has taught this from the time of the Apostles. Even Christ Himself, when He instituted the sacrament of Communion, stated in no uncertain terms, that the bread and wine were indeed His Body and Blood. It is good that you have drawn your friends attention to this and tried to correct their thinking. To further hammer home the notion, refer them to the Gospel of John, Chapter 6 verses 30 to the end. It is abundantly clear that Communion is partaking in the very true Body and Blood of Christ. The people's reaction further verifies this as many found this to be a 'hard saying' and 'no longer walked with Him'. If the sacrament of Communion was merely a symbol as some say, would people have left or found it a hard saying? And if Christ didn't really mean that it was truly His Body and Blood, don't you think He would have clarified and said, 'Wait a second folks, this is strictly symbolic. Y'all don't need to leave.'
I would definitely point this out to your priest though. He needs to know so that he can better pastor his flock.
Pray for me.
Hi Cephas... great to see you. Like always your opinion is very wise.
I'm sorry if I differ with you on this, but the fact that the priest baptised them knowing this, and still allows them to take communion is unacceptable. They really should be punished for this.
Is there a bishop within the Church whom you can complain to about these priests??
Well, there actually coptic, they were baptized as babies, its just one of there parents prefers the protestant church and so they often go there, but now they always come to the orthodox church.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=10973.msg132865#msg132865 date=1300064935]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
The idea that the Holy Eucharist is not the true Body and Blood of Christ is certainly a dangerous notion. The Church has taught this from the time of the Apostles. Even Christ Himself, when He instituted the sacrament of Communion, stated in no uncertain terms, that the bread and wine were indeed His Body and Blood. It is good that you have drawn your friends attention to this and tried to correct their thinking. To further hammer home the notion, refer them to the Gospel of John, Chapter 6 verses 30 to the end. It is abundantly clear that Communion is partaking in the very true Body and Blood of Christ. The people's reaction further verifies this as many found this to be a 'hard saying' and 'no longer walked with Him'. If the sacrament of Communion was merely a symbol as some say, would people have left or found it a hard saying? And if Christ didn't really mean that it was truly His Body and Blood, don't you think He would have clarified and said, 'Wait a second folks, this is strictly symbolic. Y'all don't need to leave.'
I would definitely point this out to your priest though. He needs to know so that he can better pastor his flock.
Pray for me.
Hi Cephas... great to see you. Like always your opinion is very wise.
I'm sorry if I differ with you on this, but the fact that the priest baptised them knowing this, and still allows them to take communion is unacceptable. They really should be punished for this.
Is there a bishop within the Church whom you can complain to about these priests??
Meena stated that these youth are Orthodox as they were baptized as babies. Thus, the blame is more on the parents of these youth than the priest, as the parents have seen fit to let them attend protestant churches.
But even if they were baptised as babies and the priest KNOWS that they do not believe that this is the body of Christ, he should not let them partake of it.
Oh.. my apologies.. I did not see where he said that they were baptised as Orthodox as babies? Can you quote it for me?
But even if they were baptised as babies and the priest KNOWS that they do not believe that this is the body of Christ, he should not let them partake of it.
No no no zoxasi, thats the problem, the priest in our church is NOT aware that they don't believe its the true body and blood, or that they are not fasting when they take communion.. I want to tell the priest, and I will tell him, but I KNOW they will really be upset with me.
As for quoting John, believe me, ive quoted everything from the bible I know that has to do with communion, including things from the O.T like Melchizedek. Its not an issue of debate with them, ive spoken to them and they were left with nothing to say, the issue is protestantism, and excuse me for being rude, but pure laziness. Not wanted to put in effort, fasting, prayer, repentence and confession, to be able to take communion.
wow! these questions make me wonder if i should ever get near an orthodox church...
i am really pleased that you guys are bringing to light what it really means to be orthodox.
thank you.
I don't know if you are serious or just joking. Our church was started by St. Mark. The same Mark that wrote the Gospel Mark. Before you say stupid stuff like this, think about who started your Protestant church. It was Martin Luther i believe. A former monk who thought that life shouldn't have struggle and the corruption of the Catholic Church must cease. He was right about the Catholic Church, so his way of changing the corrupt ways was to totally take out over half of the tradition our Lord Jesus Christ had passed down to us. If you don't want to go any where near an orthodox church then that is your loss and you need to get off this site because according to your language you are not hear to try to better yourself you are here to somehow magically prove that Protestantism is either right or better than the Coptic Orthodox Church. No matter how hard you try you will not be able to. So please, before you say stupid things think about what the church teaches not how people try to blindly stray from it. I am actually surprised that you feel ok in a protestant "church". All they do is sing songs, and most of the time enjoy the song more than actually praising God because of all the drum noises and guitar sounds. Then following the songs a person who calls himself a pastor comes up and gives a Bible sermon/lesson. I also wouldn't be talking if i were you because you protestants don't even believe that this is the REAL BODY AND BLOOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. Your pastors can be anybody from a teenager to a senior citizen who think that their own interpretation is the correct interpretation of the Bible. Our priests have had incredible studies and they are ready to teach the people the right things about Christianity, based on writings from the apostles and fathers of the church who are basically people very close to the apostles. Honestly, i have been trying to hold myself from telling you these words for a while hoping that someone would tell you, but when you say things that imply that protestantism is more correct and better than orthodoxy, i must reply to stupidity.
wow! these questions make me wonder if i should ever get near an orthodox church...
i am really pleased that you guys are bringing to light what it really means to be orthodox.
thank you.
this is incredibly rude on your part lightening. I defended Protestants on another thread because I felt they were being disrespected but you have come here and disrespected one the most important sacrements in our church. If you don't agree with it, it is your choice but out of respect for those who do you must restrain from insulting comments. I won't go on why Communion is so important since others already have and I won't bother to try to convince of anything but I urge to show respect to other faiths even if you don't agree with them, no follower of Christ no matter his affiliations should speak as such to others.
I think you misunderstood. In the ancient church non-believers (and Catechumens) attended the liturgy to a certain point and were then supposed to leave at the start of the liturgy of the believers (because they were not yet believers. They can't respond we believe, if they don't believe it.) This practice is often neglected because there aren't as many Catechumens now as there used to be so they wouldn't feel isolated. It is to this ancient practice that Unworthy1 is referring to, and it is in no way unloving. Simply put non-Orthodox can attend half the service but are supposed to leave at the beginning of the liturgy of the believers.
Please forgive any offense
Meena,
If you have already presented evidence from Scripture about the real Presence in Communion, then you should defer the matter to your priest. You have done your part. Now just pray for your friends, that the Light of Christ enlightens their hearts and minds.
This is definitely an issue I would talk to the priest about, as PK said.
However, I find myself in a slightly similar situation, although not completely. PK, you said that we do not have the authority to tell anyone not to take communion - only the priest does. That sounds fair, but what about telling someone to leave the church? I go to a relatively large church. Many times random people (non-Christian) come to the liturgy and just sit there. From the little I know, anyone who is not baptized should leave the liturgy after the kiss of peace. Now do I have any authority to tell these random people to leave?
+ Irini nem ehmot,
No. You don't have the authority to do that, nor should you do that. If a non-Christian attends the liturgy, you should rejoice over it. Christ may use this moment to plant the seed of Faith in their hearts. Maybe you could use the opportunity to stand with them and help them follow what is going on.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10973.msg132870#msg132870 date=1300065537]
Oh.. my apologies.. I did not see where he said that they were baptised as Orthodox as babies? Can you quote it for me?
But even if they were baptised as babies and the priest KNOWS that they do not believe that this is the body of Christ, he should not let them partake of it.
No no no zoxasi, thats the problem, the priest in our church is NOT aware that they don't believe its the true body and blood, or that they are not fasting when they take communion.. I want to tell the priest, and I will tell him, but I KNOW they will really be upset with me.
As for quoting John, believe me, ive quoted everything from the bible I know that has to do with communion, including things from the O.T like Melchizedek. Its not an issue of debate with them, ive spoken to them and they were left with nothing to say, the issue is protestantism, and excuse me for being rude, but pure laziness. Not wanted to put in effort, fasting, prayer, repentence and confession, to be able to take communion.
They were baptised as babies then?
If they don't believe that this is the REAL Body and REAL Blood of our Lord, then they shouldn't take it.
Salvation is different for different people - isn't it, lightening??
For example - Protestants view of salvation is that Christ became the sacrifice for the remission of sins that was sacrificed in the OT.
However, I do believe that God commanded the jews to eat the sacrifice? and that NOTHING had to be left over?? Furthermore, in the NT, Christ is abundantly clear: He who eats my Body and drinks my Blood, I will abide in Him, and he will have eternal life.
Protestants refer or assume that Christ means by this that we eat His Word - i.e. His Gospel. Now - why would they come to that conclusion for ?? What gives them "the right" to conclude this?? When they can see CLEARLY from the OT that the sacrifice, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, in the OT had to be eaten, then why do not accept that Christ's Body, being THAT sacrifice should also not be eaten??? WHY NOT??
You refer to Him, as protestants, as the "LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD". This lamb HAD TO BE EATEN!
It was offered by the priest, on behalf of the people, and was sacrificed on the altar. Yet, you do not eat it. Therefore, as protestants, you are CLEARLY lacking in the fullness of the Christian life.
Aren't you!??
as for the first line of my reaction to the initial post, you should not take it offensive either, but rather helpful as it informs you about the effect your words have on the 'outsiders', the ones you are supposed to love and care about. once again, your replies make me feel anything but loved and welcomed, and makes me wonder if orthodox church is the way... Please stop taking offence and and start loving the sinner.
i don't know why you find my post rude, pharoh123. i did not disagree with, nor did i add anything to what was said in the initial post. i only said thank you for bringing to light what it means to be orthodox. this is a thak you. it means appreciating something. it's not insulting. why are you guys so sensitive to everything i say?..
as for the first line of my reaction to the initial post, you should not take it offensive either, but rather helpful as it informs you about the effect your words have on the 'outsiders', the ones you are supposed to love and care about. once again, your replies make me feel anything but loved and welcomed, and makes me wonder if orthodox church is the way... Please stop taking offence and and start loving the sinner.
Lightening, all Apostolic Churches (Orthodox and Catholic) have a fundamental and basic view of salvation that incorporates partaking of the Eucharist. Without this, you are not living nor benefitting from the salvation offered by Christ.
The devil himself believes that Christ is the Son of God incarnated. So, salvation by faith alone is of no difference than what satan believes (its of no avail). Christ didn't just come to pay for the price of sin (Divine Justice), but He came to inject life in us. We receive the Life Giving Graces of His Sacrifice through the sacraments, the main one being Holy Communion. Therefore, partaking of it is paramount for ANY Christian.
This is proven as a pre-requisite from the Old testament (please read my previous post).
Your church denies the importance of the Holy Communion, and as far as I can see, you are a danger to people's salvation.
i will not accept to divert the focus of my query, and be sidetracked by your lack of your willingness (or ability) to stay focussed.
next time you reply, please hit the nail on its head, if you can...
dear zoxsasi, i am aware of these differences, although i appreciate you stating it again. nevertheless, you did not even attempt to answer my last question. or did you mean, by this answer, to justify (or explain) the 'deserved' perpetual spikiness and rejection towards me as a 'protestant' sinner?..
i will not accept to divert the focus of my query, and be sidetracked by your lack of your willingness (or ability) to stay focussed.
next time you reply, please hit the nail on its head, if you can...
I did not see your last post as a question - it was more of an attack, which I found to be quite unnecessary also.
wow! these questions make me wonder if i should ever get near an orthodox church...
i am really pleased that you guys are bringing to light what it really means to be orthodox.
thank you.
This is your question?
I do not see a question-mark here Lightening! You are clearly stating an opinion.
The Orthodox Church isn't into numbers. Its not into gaining people for its congregation to increase for the sake of it increasing. Not at all.
In your current condition, with your current philosophy and ignorant driven agenda against the truth, and against the Holy Apostolic Church of God, I would not recommend that you become Orthodox.
I hope that hits the nail on the head for you.
If you have the spirit of learning, humility and seeking the truth, then you can approach the Orthodox Church, and we would love to guide you further. But as you are, I would not dare to recommend Orthodoxy to you.
You may select a church because you feel welcomed, you like the people that go to this church, you like their attitudes... the problem is, you can find places like this everywhere, you can find them at jehova witnesses churches, mormon churches, churches whos goal is to build a congregation not to spread the word of God. Christ said "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
If you base your faith on anything but the word of God you will find yourself in a cult. It is not enough to go somewhere where everyone loves you and they throw in the name of Jesus every once in a while, you musk seek a relationship with God, and HE will lead you to the church (His bride). Dont pick where you go, let the Lord pick, and you will find yourself in the Orthodox Church.
As your attitude implies, this in currently not what your looking for, your looking for a place where everyone is accepting of all views, if this were the case, there would be no church, but several divisions. The Orthodox Church has been against divisions and departures from the original faith from day one. Until you get your head into the books and give your heart to God he will never reveal his Bride to you.
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Protestants/Evangelicals tend to want to convert you to their twisted ideology. They do not even have the decency like muslims who at least ask questions about Christ's Divinity (for example). They come, they do not read anything, and they just spurt out their ignorance and sick agenda.
Lightening, since he joined, has been not only rude, but extremely annoying - without a care as to who he offends.
I find his entire personality and agenda boring.