[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=10935.msg132936#msg132936 date=1300126186] Hmm. If you don't mind me asking, why did it matter to you what the Catholic Church also bans, Zoxsasi? I'm curious because I left that communion rather recently, and some of their stances and justifications for the stances they take (and even more for the changes in the stances they take) really left a bad taste in my mouth. It's not that they're wrong about everything, of course, but to my mind they are wrong in their approach to the faith such that anything they get right is already present in the true (Orthodox) Church, without any of the weight of wrong things dragging the truth down...
Actually, the Roman Catholic Church left (in general) a good taste in my mouth. It depends which community you belong to also. But what i discovered was that whatever we were taught in the Orthodox Church - whenever I saw this being taught in the catholic, I knew it was biblical - i.e. it wasn't related to culture.
As a young Egyptian growing up outside Egypt, we always hear the terms "Harram!!" or "3eeb" etc within the confines of a Coptic Orthodox Church and community.. and its hard to know whether something is "Harram/3eeb" because of the Egyptian culture, or the Orthodox faith. So, when you attend the catholic church, if the same things are HARRM or 3eeb also, then most likely you know that what you heard in the Orthodox Egyptian community was indeed biblical , not cultural.
Catholic European Churches are not Egyptian in Culture, they are European Christian, so their entire behaviour will be void of anything Egyptian.
Sorry if i have confused you, but I hope that this makes sense. As a young man, or a young teenager, the distinction was not clear at times.
Catholic European Churches are not Egyptian in Culture, they are European Christian, so their entire behaviour will be void of anything Egyptian.
Sorry if i have confused you, but I hope that this makes sense. As a young man, or a young teenager, the distinction was not clear at times.
Thank you for taking the time to reply to me, Zoxsasi. I appreciate it, and now it makes sense why you would say that. I just want to clarify for the benefit of anyone reading that I am eternally grateful to the Roman Catholic Church for my time in it. I don't think I would be here now if I hadn't been there first, since it was through the RCC that I gained an appreciation for liturgical worship, apostolic Christianity and Christian history.
I'm not sure if this topic is about sex or alcohol. but i did read Fr Ant's article, and found it a bit too simplistic:
On a statistical level, while I have no actual figures, I can say with some confidence that within our Coptic community the incidence of alcoholism is vanishingly small. It does happen, but it is very rare, and certainly nowhere near the incidence of the wider Australian community. I have no doubt that this excellent health outcome is due to the Church’s policy against even social drinking. Weigh it up: what do we lose and what do we gain? We lose a little bit of chemical stimulation at social events, but we gain better health for thousands of husbands and wives, fathers and mothers, who are allowed to continue caring for their families and living useful, fulfilling and productive lives.
i'm not even a priest, and I know this is not true. it's funny what people don't see behind closed doors. Studies show that in societies where alcohol is a moderate normal part of life, there are less chances of alcoholism. American society is post-prohibition, but still have very strict drinking rules, which in part makes young people obsessed with it.
Egyptians invented beer, in order to hydrate without getting dysentery.
We really can't view sex between a husband and wife, using the same terminologies as temptation and sin, that's just ridiculous. I agree with Zoxasi, we have a very haram based society, that I do not think is very healthy whatsoever. I wonder what the church would look like without the oppressive nature of arab society that exists within Egypt. Ever pay a visit to the OCA? That might be a good indication of what it would look like. Also like Zoxasi, big fan of my catholic brothers and sisters.
I have read most of the comments here but I may have missed one or two. So, I apologize if it seems I am ignoring any comments.
Regarding this issue of sex during lent. There are church canons that forbid it. However, the spiritual father does instruct his children depending on the spiritual level.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=10935.msg133289#msg133289 date=1300414433] I have read most of the comments here but I may have missed one or two. So, I apologize if it seems I am ignoring any comments.
Regarding this issue of sex during lent. There are church canons that forbid it. However, the spiritual father does instruct his children depending on the spiritual level.
Thanks.
This is the answer. I'm not sure why there's still discussion going on...
I think the Admins should consider putting a lock on threads like this (the ones dealing with PG-13 material) where one has to be 18 or older to access and reply.
But it would require people to enter their age, and I guess that leads to privacy issues (and possibly lies).
If you are interested about learning the true meaning of fasting, in addition to H.H. Pope Shenouda's book, there are also articles that you can find on coptichymns.net that will provide information. Some of my personal favourites include: The Deep Meaning of Fasting by Fr. Matta El Meskeen and The Proper Fast and its Effects According to the Fathers by Mena Rizkalla. If you just go to the spiritual article section and type 'fast' you'll find a number of other articles.
Forgive me for saying this, but its how I feel. I really feel that fasting without prayer is pointless, on top of it, working hard and living in a rat-race is pretty difficult to do anything spiritually in that environment.
I was praying more before fasting.. and now I fast, with a tough work-life schedule, its not easy to focus on praying at all.
I don't think I should give up fasting, but I think seriously its worth taking 2 weeks off and spending it in a monastery during this period (which , as it stands right now, is hardly unlikely).
I think i have read H.H book on fasting actually, but that was ages ago.
I go home and all i wanna do is eat and sleep. I'm extremely tired.
we are all in a spiritual battle, brother. try this little step (it works!): each day before reading any posts on tasbeha.org, go to the 'our faith' section and scroll down to daily readings, and read the Bible readings for the day before you post. then think about them and pray and ask God to help you. then pray 'our father' or from the agpeya. it may mean you run out of time to post anything :o but that's ok, because with the time spent with God, you won't really need to go on the forums. :)
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=10935.msg133329#msg133329 date=1300475024] we are all in a spiritual battle, brother. try this little step (it works!): each day before reading any posts on tasbeha.org, go to the 'our faith' section and scroll down to daily readings, and read the Bible readings for the day before you post. then think about them and pray and ask God to help you. then pray 'our father' or from the agpeya. it may mean you run out of time to post anything :o but that's ok, because with the time spent with God, you won't really need to go on the forums. :)
From personal experience brother, try this, it works. We all complain of lack of time, its difficult to pray and work is consuming us. However, praying the Jesus Prayer really connects you with Your Heavenly Father at all times. Try applying it right away, you've got nothing to lose. Trust me if u persevere with this prayer, you'll see wonders.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10935.msg133327#msg133327 date=1300471317] When are you most likely to benefit or grow spiritually? Isn't it when you give time to God?
If I don't give time, i'm not going to benefit, and fasting isn't going to help either.. is it?
But, I don't know why, but i really don't feel like giving time to God.
Why is that?
I know how you feel. It's important to make time to sit down and evaluate yourself and refocus yourself on what's important in your life. No one really wants to do this. You have to make an appointment and stick to it, like schedule confession and then right before while you're waiting to see the priest, pray the prayer of repentance in the agpeya and prepare for confession by thinking about the sins you are repenting of. Think of how you've strayed, and the cause of it, and pray that God will help you to overcome these causes, because we can never overcome them on our own. I'm saying this because I felt like you, and I recently went to confess, although I a secret part inside of me didn't want to do it, and I ended up waiting hours for abouna, and during that time I made a list of my sins and was meditating on them and praying to God that He too would not meditate on them. And even when I came in, I was a little reluctant/ embarrassed to start confessing in the beginning (more so than I usually am) and abouna noticed so he told me, in one of the other orthodox churches, when the person comes in for confession, the priest tells them, "Now you are in the hospital, so do not hide any disease from the True Physician." And after I confessed, I really can't explain it, but I felt a reconnection with God that I had in the past and a desire to have an active relationship with Him. While I was waiting to confess, I had the same thoughts to myself, I thought that I don't know the first thing about praying. But then I remembered the words of our Lord and the words of the fathers that prayer is not in the number or eloquence of our words, but in the power and depth of its meaning and expression. Even short prayers like "My Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." are heard before the Lord of Hosts. The agpeya itself is a school of prayer, and while we often don't have time for a full hour, we can at least pray a part, maybe one we memorized, like the prayer of thanksgiving. My priest encouraged us/me to pray the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephrem the Syrian several times a day: O Lord and Master of my life! take from me the spirit of sloth, faintheartedness, lust of power, and idle talk. But give me rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant! Yea, O Lord and King! Grant me to see my own errors and not to judge my brother; for Thou art blessed unto the ages of ages Amen.
Another tip my father of confession told me (and I knew from experience he was right) is that when you get the urge to pray or read the Bible, do it right away. If you wait, you will get lazy and the enemy of good will prevent you from doing it. THIS HAPPENS TO ME ALL THE TIME! He said even if you're so tired that you can't keep your eyes open, just open the Bible and read a few verses.
As for fasting, it is the discipline in denying ourselves and learning the hard lesson of telling ourselves "no". This is difficult, but immeasurably beneficial, that's why in its wisdom the Church has us start with the smallest of issues--food. If one learns to control what and how much they eat, they will be able to control their mouth and actions and thoughts. But if someone cannot even restrain themselves from food, how will they refrain from sin? Fasting is very valuable, and like you rightly pointed out, is must be coupled with prayer and almsgiving to have its full effect. In fact, if you refer to the gospel of the Pre-Lent Sunday (day before Lent began), our Lord mentions almsgiving first, followed by prayer, followed by fasting. St. Augustine said: "Do you want your prayer to rise upward to the heavens? Provide it, then, with two wings: fasting and alms."
Hang in there. We're all struggling with you. But at the end of Lent, when we enter Holy Week and experience that inexpressable joy of closeness with God, all the struggling will be worth it and we will have used the Great Lent the way our fathers did and the way the Church meant it to be-- as a renewal for our souls by the discipline of our bodies.
Wow, I can't believe I just typed all of that. Please don't get scared or lazy to read it, I would love it if you or anyone benefited from anything God has shown me in the last few days...
Comments
Hmm. If you don't mind me asking, why did it matter to you what the Catholic Church also bans, Zoxsasi? I'm curious because I left that communion rather recently, and some of their stances and justifications for the stances they take (and even more for the changes in the stances they take) really left a bad taste in my mouth. It's not that they're wrong about everything, of course, but to my mind they are wrong in their approach to the faith such that anything they get right is already present in the true (Orthodox) Church, without any of the weight of wrong things dragging the truth down...
Actually, the Roman Catholic Church left (in general) a good taste in my mouth. It depends which community you belong to also. But what i discovered was that whatever we were taught in the Orthodox Church - whenever I saw this being taught in the catholic, I knew it was biblical - i.e. it wasn't related to culture.
As a young Egyptian growing up outside Egypt, we always hear the terms "Harram!!" or "3eeb" etc within the confines of a Coptic Orthodox Church and community.. and its hard to know whether something is "Harram/3eeb" because of the Egyptian culture, or the Orthodox faith. So, when you attend the catholic church, if the same things are HARRM or 3eeb also, then most likely you know that what you heard in the Orthodox Egyptian community was indeed biblical , not cultural.
Catholic European Churches are not Egyptian in Culture, they are European Christian, so their entire behaviour will be void of anything Egyptian.
Sorry if i have confused you, but I hope that this makes sense. As a young man, or a young teenager, the distinction was not clear at times.
Catholic European Churches are not Egyptian in Culture, they are European Christian, so their entire behaviour will be void of anything Egyptian.
Sorry if i have confused you, but I hope that this makes sense. As a young man, or a young teenager, the distinction was not clear at times.
Thank you for taking the time to reply to me, Zoxsasi. I appreciate it, and now it makes sense why you would say that. I just want to clarify for the benefit of anyone reading that I am eternally grateful to the Roman Catholic Church for my time in it. I don't think I would be here now if I hadn't been there first, since it was through the RCC that I gained an appreciation for liturgical worship, apostolic Christianity and Christian history.
They are dear to my heart, but I feel their lack of orthodoxy is not what I need, but I miss them very much.
Egyptians invented beer, in order to hydrate without getting dysentery.
We really can't view sex between a husband and wife, using the same terminologies as temptation and sin, that's just ridiculous. I agree with Zoxasi, we have a very haram based society, that I do not think is very healthy whatsoever. I wonder what the church would look like without the oppressive nature of arab society that exists within Egypt. Ever pay a visit to the OCA? That might be a good indication of what it would look like. Also like Zoxasi, big fan of my catholic brothers and sisters.
Regarding this issue of sex during lent. There are church canons that forbid it. However, the spiritual father does instruct his children depending on the spiritual level.
Thanks.
I have read most of the comments here but I may have missed one or two. So, I apologize if it seems I am ignoring any comments.
Regarding this issue of sex during lent. There are church canons that forbid it. However, the spiritual father does instruct his children depending on the spiritual level.
Thanks.
This is the answer. I'm not sure why there's still discussion going on...
I think the discussion diverged to alcohol consumption.
Btw, is beer wrong during lent??
But it would require people to enter their age, and I guess that leads to privacy issues (and possibly lies).
Btw, is beer wrong during lent??
I think it depends if its microbrewed or not.
I think the fact that I'm even asking these questions shows a lack of understanding on fasting.
I don't think its about finding loopholes in what u can eat, or what you can get away with...
regardless, this is just a personal note:
I have NO idea how you can benefit spiritually from fasting as fasting without prayer is pointless, and I have no idea how to even pray anyway.
If you are interested about learning the true meaning of fasting, in addition to H.H. Pope Shenouda's book, there are also articles that you can find on coptichymns.net that will provide information. Some of my personal favourites include: The Deep Meaning of Fasting by Fr. Matta El Meskeen and The Proper Fast and its Effects According to the Fathers by Mena Rizkalla. If you just go to the spiritual article section and type 'fast' you'll find a number of other articles.
Forgive me for saying this, but its how I feel. I really feel that fasting without prayer is pointless, on top of it, working hard and living in a rat-race is pretty difficult to do anything spiritually in that environment.
I was praying more before fasting.. and now I fast, with a tough work-life schedule, its not easy to focus on praying at all.
I don't think I should give up fasting, but I think seriously its worth taking 2 weeks off and spending it in a monastery during this period (which , as it stands right now, is hardly unlikely).
I think i have read H.H book on fasting actually, but that was ages ago.
I go home and all i wanna do is eat and sleep. I'm extremely tired.
If I don't give time, i'm not going to benefit, and fasting isn't going to help either.. is it?
But, I don't know why, but i really don't feel like giving time to God.
Why is that?
try this little step (it works!):
each day before reading any posts on tasbeha.org, go to the 'our faith' section and scroll down to daily readings, and read the Bible readings for the day before you post.
then think about them and pray and ask God to help you.
then pray 'our father' or from the agpeya.
it may mean you run out of time to post anything :o
but that's ok, because with the time spent with God, you won't really need to go on the forums.
:)
we are all in a spiritual battle, brother.
try this little step (it works!):
each day before reading any posts on tasbeha.org, go to the 'our faith' section and scroll down to daily readings, and read the Bible readings for the day before you post.
then think about them and pray and ask God to help you.
then pray 'our father' or from the agpeya.
it may mean you run out of time to post anything :o
but that's ok, because with the time spent with God, you won't really need to go on the forums.
:)
Thanks
When are you most likely to benefit or grow spiritually? Isn't it when you give time to God?
If I don't give time, i'm not going to benefit, and fasting isn't going to help either.. is it?
But, I don't know why, but i really don't feel like giving time to God.
Why is that?
I know how you feel. It's important to make time to sit down and evaluate yourself and refocus yourself on what's important in your life. No one really wants to do this. You have to make an appointment and stick to it, like schedule confession and then right before while you're waiting to see the priest, pray the prayer of repentance in the agpeya and prepare for confession by thinking about the sins you are repenting of. Think of how you've strayed, and the cause of it, and pray that God will help you to overcome these causes, because we can never overcome them on our own. I'm saying this because I felt like you, and I recently went to confess, although I a secret part inside of me didn't want to do it, and I ended up waiting hours for abouna, and during that time I made a list of my sins and was meditating on them and praying to God that He too would not meditate on them. And even when I came in, I was a little reluctant/ embarrassed to start confessing in the beginning (more so than I usually am) and abouna noticed so he told me, in one of the other orthodox churches, when the person comes in for confession, the priest tells them, "Now you are in the hospital, so do not hide any disease from the True Physician." And after I confessed, I really can't explain it, but I felt a reconnection with God that I had in the past and a desire to have an active relationship with Him. While I was waiting to confess, I had the same thoughts to myself, I thought that I don't know the first thing about praying. But then I remembered the words of our Lord and the words of the fathers that prayer is not in the number or eloquence of our words, but in the power and depth of its meaning and expression. Even short prayers like "My Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." are heard before the Lord of Hosts. The agpeya itself is a school of prayer, and while we often don't have time for a full hour, we can at least pray a part, maybe one we memorized, like the prayer of thanksgiving. My priest encouraged us/me to pray the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephrem the Syrian several times a day:
O Lord and Master of my life!
take from me the spirit of sloth,
faintheartedness, lust of power, and idle talk.
But give me rather the spirit of chastity,
humility, patience, and love to Thy servant!
Yea, O Lord and King!
Grant me to see my own errors
and not to judge my brother;
for Thou art blessed unto the ages of ages
Amen.
Another tip my father of confession told me (and I knew from experience he was right) is that when you get the urge to pray or read the Bible, do it right away. If you wait, you will get lazy and the enemy of good will prevent you from doing it. THIS HAPPENS TO ME ALL THE TIME! He said even if you're so tired that you can't keep your eyes open, just open the Bible and read a few verses.
As for fasting, it is the discipline in denying ourselves and learning the hard lesson of telling ourselves "no". This is difficult, but immeasurably beneficial, that's why in its wisdom the Church has us start with the smallest of issues--food. If one learns to control what and how much they eat, they will be able to control their mouth and actions and thoughts. But if someone cannot even restrain themselves from food, how will they refrain from sin? Fasting is very valuable, and like you rightly pointed out, is must be coupled with prayer and almsgiving to have its full effect. In fact, if you refer to the gospel of the Pre-Lent Sunday (day before Lent began), our Lord mentions almsgiving first, followed by prayer, followed by fasting. St. Augustine said: "Do you want your prayer to rise upward to the heavens? Provide it, then, with two wings: fasting and alms."
Hang in there. We're all struggling with you. But at the end of Lent, when we enter Holy Week and experience that inexpressable joy of closeness with God, all the struggling will be worth it and we will have used the Great Lent the way our fathers did and the way the Church meant it to be-- as a renewal for our souls by the discipline of our bodies.
Oh! And I love mabsoota's advice! :)
Have a very blessed feast of the Cross.