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Are there Atrocities committed by the Coptic Orthodox Church??

ZoxsasiZoxsasi
edited March 2011 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Hi,

I'm trying to find atrocities committed by the Coptic Orthodox Church - yet I cannot find anything.

OK... our priests/bishops aren't perfect, but as far as I know, we were not part of the crusades - we didnt have a military, nor political presence - did we??

Can someone kindly confirm this?

Even during the reign of Saint Constantine, he even himself persecuted our Church by excommunicating our 22nd Patriarch, and unwittingly he gave the Arians a chance to spread their heresies.

For example - one could say the Roman Catholic Vs Protestant wars are atrocities.
The Crusades
The Inquisition..

But where in our history have we done anything like this??

My apologies for this title.. please feel free to change it if you want, but as I said, I cannot find anything. The reason is because the COC has never and will never be involved in politics.

Comments

  • mabsootamabsoota
    no.
  • dzheremi
    I haven't found any in my studies, either. I don't think so.
  • George_Mina_Awad
    I'd be very curious to see if the response on a site like Orthodoxchristianity.org would be the same or not (a forum that isn't strictly Coptic).

    Anyway, I don't know of any either...lol
  • gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
    Not an atrocity in the sense of human deaths, but

    I've read somewhere (and this a highly debatable subject, NOT a fact.  Infact, many historians disagree with it because of the sparse evidence) that the destruction of the famous Library of Alexandria in 391 was carried out by Copts under the orders of Pope Theophilous, who got to go-ahead from Emperor Theodosious. 


  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Gregorythesinner,
    I won't be surprised to learn that muslims were the ones to spread that piece of knowledge as my understanding is that it was destroyed at the hands of muslim invasion of Egypt. However, if there may be any hint of truth, I would argue that the library was rebuilt afterwards, but again that's just a personal opinion...
    Oujai
  • mrpete33mrpete33
    Every historical document i have ever read regarding the destruction speaks of that atrocity committed by the muslim caliph in charge of the siege of Egypt. He ordered the burning of every book not conducive to Islam, even if it was neutral. As Copts we cherished the library, that library held some of the world's most important documents. Why in the world would The Patriarch all of a sudden decide to have it burned? What relevance did the library have to him?
  • gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
    Well the Library was destroyed (and rebuilt) a couple of times, and I remember reading somewhere online that it was possibly destroyed by the Muslim invasion of Egypt.  The point I was talking about actually came from a book that chronicled the lives of the Byzantine Emperors. In all fairness, the book wasn't as informed as you'd expect a historical book to be, referring to the Coptic faith as either heretical or monophysitic on more than one occasion.  
  • geomike
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10916.msg132176#msg132176 date=1299445158]
    Hi,

    I'm trying to find atrocities committed by the Coptic Orthodox Church - yet I cannot find anything.





    exactly.
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    How do you guys feel about what Pope Dioscorus did at the second "council" of Ephesus? Were the Chalcedonians right in condemning this to be a "robber council?"

    PK
  • mrpete33mrpete33
    Yes the library was rebuilt a few times, but it was never demolished to the extent of what the muslim siege did. The burnt many many books, books that chronicled history, religion, poetry, philosophy, etc.

    To the Council of Ephesus it seems to be the farthest thing from a robber council. The only reason our teacher Pope Dioscorus took lots of harsh criticism is because he was head of the council. However a further inspection of the minutes shows that in fact he sought to have the opinions of all the other bishops present before giving his. He was in accordance with all the other bishops and his faith never wavered from the Orthodox fathers.

    One should read Father Peter's book, as it provides great insight into many of the goings-on around Chalcedon and is referenced throughout so one may further explore the issue for themselves
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    please lead me to that book. I'd love to read it.

    Thanks,
    PK
  • mrpete33mrpete33
    Here is the link to Fr. Peter's book, i am personally not finished it yet but found it very good at communicating details of the controversies of the time and opening my eyes to many things i didnt know.

    http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/orthodox-christology/10969273

    Here also is the 'Oriental Orthodox library' which has a list of many books for those keen on Orthodox study, another one that was written by Fr. Peter is called Selected Letters of Severus of Antioch.
    http://stores.lulu.com/orthodoxlibrary
    May God bless Fr. Peter's ministry and his fatherhood to us all
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    I needed this book. Thank you Father Peter. You are a treasure to today's Orthodox community.

    PK
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    So generally speaking, more or less, the Coptic Orthodox Church has always been the victim.. hasn't it?

  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    The Copts never destroyed any portion of the Library of Alexandria.

    There is only one particular aspect in the regard of the eradication of paganism from Egypt.  There were several patriarchs and monastic dwellers that would specifically target the pagan worship and their given "priests and priestesses".  However there is no evidence, however remote, that any atrocities were carried out on a widespread form; certainly not against any fellow Christians.

    I think that the Byzantines, are reluctant at reconciliation with the Orientals for the simple fact that they will have to underscore and take responsibility for the atrocities they committed against us.

    The Coptic Church is clean.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Thanks guys,

    a friend asked me to ask for him, but I'm surprised because he knows Coptic History pretty well.

    I guess we are the only Church then that has done nothing wrong to anyone in the history of mankind.

    Gosh.. that should go in the Guiness Book of Records.
  • TimothymTimothym
    [quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=10916.msg132194#msg132194 date=1299450770]
    Not an atrocity in the sense of human deaths, but

    I've read somewhere (and this a highly debatable subject, NOT a fact.  Infact, many historians disagree with it because of the sparse evidence) that the destruction of the famous Library of Alexandria in 391 was carried out by Copts under the orders of Pope Theophilous, who got to go-ahead from Emperor Theodosious. 



    I think you mean the destruction of the Serapeum in which the brilliant mathematician Hypatia was killed. It is actually mentioned somewhere in the Synaxarium.
  • MarchMadness
    I wouldn't take pride in always being the victim :) I would take pride in a church that has stayed away from hunger for political power.  As a result, persecution happens.  But just because there haven't been huge history worthy human atrocities committed by the church, we need to think about how we as a church treat our own people and the society around us.  We have been oppressed, but I dare say, we also know how to oppress sometimes.  Ask that family member who got divorced and how they feel ashamed to go to church and people gossip about them behind their back.  You know who I'm talking about.

    I think history serves as a warning for us as a church.  Whenever church and politics mix, bad things come about.  Look at the Evangelical and Pentecostal churches in America.  They are very much tied with government, and look what a sham it has become.

    I think as long as we as a church are always on the side of truth, and agape, we cannot go wrong.  It is easier said than done.  I think our church is too politically tied in Egypt, but that's just my two cents.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Zoxsasi,

    It depends on how you define atrocities and it depends on how reliable are historians. According to church historians, under Pope Theophilus the "last" pagan temple, the Serapion was destroyed in 391 (not the Alexandrian library). Is this an atrocty? Some will say yes. Under Pope Cyril I, Hypatia a pagan priestess was murdered (supposedly by Pope Cyril) which marked the end of paganism in Egypt. Under Dioscorus, according to Chalcedonian historians, he had armed Roman guards kill Flavian, patriarch of Constantinople, after the Ephesus II council. Under Damian, Timothy II and other post-Chalcedonian patriarchs, there are stories of mob rioting by laymen, monks and clergy under the direction of the heirarchy.

    Then we need to also look at monks. There are stories of monks who went to many cities literally beating and killing anyone who followed Origenism. There are also stories of St Shenoute killing a monk while chastising him. There are also stories of St Shenoute violently attacking a pagan priest in Atripe (I think his name was Gaus) in 20 year period.

    Then we also need to look at non-physical atrocities. Some will consider simony, the selling of the priesthood as an atrocity. And there are many stories about this happening. Then there are stories of laymen fighting with clergy on who gets to vote for the next patriarch.

    There have also been recent violent rebellions in the 19th and 20th centuries by Copts.

    So it depends on how you define atrocities and how you read history. Personally, I think we are fooling ourselves if we say Copts never committed atrocities, especially when there is historical documentation to say otherwise. But I don't buy into many historical accounts simply because they were written by Chalcedonian historians.

    George
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