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Possible to change between Oriental Orthodox Churches?
1) Does anyone know if it is possible to change (for whatever reason, maybe social, cultural etc) from Syrian Orthodox (or Armenian Orthodox) to Coptic Orthodox?
If so, how?
2) Similarly, does anyone know if it is possible change (for whatever reason, maybe social, cultural etc) from Coptic Orthodox to Syrian Orthodox (or Armenian Orthodox)?
If so, how?
If so, how?
2) Similarly, does anyone know if it is possible change (for whatever reason, maybe social, cultural etc) from Coptic Orthodox to Syrian Orthodox (or Armenian Orthodox)?
If so, how?
Comments
1) Does anyone know if it is possible to change from Syrian Orthodox (or Armenian Orthodox) to Coptic Orthodox?
If so, how?
2) Similarly, does anyone know if it is possible change from Coptic Orthodox to Syrian Orthodox (or Armenian Orthodox)?
If so, how?
why would you? we are sister church. we are in communion.
Thanks
why would you? we are sister church. we are in communion.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11091.msg134143#msg134143 date=1301111365]
I am not sure what you mean by change? There is no difference in faith among the Churches you mentioned.
Thanks
I didn't say I want to. But like i said, suppose someone wants to do it for social or cultural reasons or a reason specific to that person's circumstance.
For example, suppose someone converted to Armenian Orthodoxy i.e. was baptized in the Armenian Orthodox Church, but then felt culturally closer to the Coptic Orthodox (perhaps he is from the Middle East and felt that the Armenian Church was too culturally European for him etc) or for some reason preferred to identify himself as Coptic Orthodox as opposed to Armenian Orthodox and would like to tell people he is Coptic Orthodox rather than Armenian Orthodox (although he was baptized in the Armenian Orthodox Church)?
People may still want to change even if there is not a difference in faith. So is it possible? If so, how?
A person who is Oriental Orthodox can attend any of the other sister Orthodox churches they wish. Nothing needs to be done. If a person wishes to become Eastern Orthodox though, I believe chrismation into the church is necessary. Often, one would have to talk to the priest to see what steps are necessary to enter the Eastern Orthodox church.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9329.msg115218#msg115218 date=1275896530]
http://howawaheya-he-and-she.blogspot.com/2007/08/hala-sedki-two-coptic-orthodox-church.html
It says here that Hala Sedki converted to Syrian Orthodoxy. But this is our Sister Church. I thought that there is no conversion - or is there??
Anyway, this is anba Paula's issue. I think he will have to deal with it.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=9329.msg115229#msg115229 date=1275903902]
Not conversion, but it would be possible to formally join a different community.
As you rightly say, this is not our issue, and we probably do not know all the ins and outs in any case. It shows how much wisdom is required of our bishops.
Father Peter
So I guess I would also like to know how would someone formally join a sister Oriental Orthodox church? If anyone knows.
If a person wanted to join another community to escape some sort of discipline then as a receiving priest I would have some questions, but not insuperable ones.
For several years I had a dear Indian Orthodox family worship in my congregation and they were part of our British Orthodox Church even though they were clearly also Indian Orthodox. Their son became a servant and served with the rest of us even though he was ethnically Indian and was still Indian Orthodox as well as being British Orthodox.
What matters is to be Orthodox.
Regarding Hala Sedki though, can you clarify how she "converted to the Syriac Orthodox Church and then reverted back to the Coptic Church. Accordingly, she legally got annulment of her first marriage. In this, Pope Shenouda III has granted her the blessings of her second marriage while her divorcee could not remarry."? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hala_Sedki (not sure how accurate this is)
It seems to imply some sort of official change? Like she did something to officially become Syriac Orthodox and then did something else to become Coptic Orthodox again?
One community should not normally receive someone or a clergyman who is under discipline elsewhere. But as I say, the bishops have to sort out whatever the variety of approaches throws up. This is not a new thing after all.
But beyond all the variety we are entirely and essentially ONE Orthodox Church, and in a particular country such as the UK, HG Athanasios of the Syrian Orthodox Church is as much a bishop of my Church as HG Mar Thimothios of the Indian Orthodox, or Father Vahan, the primate of the Armenian Orthodox Church. I receive all as they truly are, bishops of OUR Church.
Thanks
One more thing though.
You mentioned
"You can formally associate yourself with a congregation by receiving communion and joining yourself to the spiritual life of that community."
Without delving into the reason(s) (I can explain more via pm, but I am not sure if you would want me to pm you), since there is only One Orthodox Church, do you think it may be possible for an Oriental Orthodox to formally associate himself/herself with a congregation without receiving communion and joining himself/herself to the spiritual life of that community?
e.g. Do you think it may be possible for an Oriental Orthodox Christian to sometimes identify himself/herself as Armenian Orthodox and sometimes as Coptic Orthodox? (even though he/she always attends an Armenian Orthodox Church and has communion there?)
Or may be possible for an Armenian Orthodox to suddenly start identifying himself/herself as Coptic Orthodox? (even though he/she always attends an Armenian Orthodox Church and has communion there?)
Or do you think if anyone intends to do something like the above, he/she should discuss this with his/her father of confession first and seek his advice?
Forgive me, but your questions strike me as a bit odd. If a person is baptized into the Orthodox Church, they may freely attend (and commune) any of the sister churches in their area. If they are ethnically Coptic but attend an Armenian, Syriac, Indian, Ethiopian or Eritriean church, they may say, "I am Coptic but I attend (insert other church here)". This also applies vice versa. Why an individual who is Orthodox would not commune or join themselves spiritually to a church of another ethnicity is beyond me. It is vital that we are spiritually nourished no matter which Church we attend. As Fr. Peter said, we are all one Church in the end, regardless of ethnicity. As St. Paul said, 'For all are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as were baptized into Christ, ye put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.' (Gal. 3:26-28).
I personally believe that the word "Armenian", "Coptic", ... are for ethnic identity when it comes to the laity. Of course, it has a different connotation for clergy. So, in your case you are Coptic but attend in the Armenian church or you are Ethiopic and attend the Coptic church.
Yea but in practice that may not always work for converts.. Imagine someone who is German and wants to become Oriental Orthodox and is baptized in the Syriac Orthodox Church and tells people that he is Orthodox. They are likely to ask which one, I don't think saying he is German Orthodox would accurately communicate what he is. If he said that I think they would assume he is Eastern Orthodox or that there is such a thing as a German Orthodox Church. He is probably more likely to say he is Syriac Orthodox..
If a person never attended St Sarkis Armenian Orthodox Church then it would be very odd for them to start saying that they were Armenian Orthodox.
I remember speaking to a Russian Orthodox bishop and he had an Armenian Orthodox on his parochial council. It seemed to me that there person was both a member of the Russian Orthodox Church AND still an Armenian Orthodox.
In my own experience I have welcomed Egyptians, Indians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Syrians, Greeks, Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians and Latvians to our worship. They have become members of our community as far as they wished and for as long as they wished. In one sense they became part of our British Orthodox community, but without ever losing the reality of their own ethnic and cultural backgrounds.
I would hope that Coptic Orthodox will spend much more time with Christians from the other Oriental Orthodox communities. We are ONE Church and we must learn to experience this more and more.
Along the lines of what Fr. Peter said, the easiest thing may be to just simply say, 'I am Orthodox and I attend [insert name of parish here]'. In the end, ethnicity does not matter. Being Orthodox is.
The variety of Armenian, Coptic, Eritrean, Ethiopian, Indian, Syrian etc are not essential and are only accidental. (That doesn't mean each variety has no value, but it is not essential).
Father Peter
I thought your questions centers around joining a a new community. In such a case you must introduce yourself as an Oriental Orthodox. What matters is really where you were baptized. So, if you are ethnically Coptic, you were likely baptized in the Coptic Church. In such a case, you would introduce yourself for instance as Coptic attending an Armenian church.
Now, if you were a German and were converted into Orthodoxy, then you would have to say which Church you were baptized in. In such a case you would say you were baptized in the Coptic Church and is attending the Armenian Church.
After being in the Community for a while, I do not see why you could not identify yourself with the community you are in (as Fr Peter said). But, this takes time.
Thanks.
One thing, I always identify myself as 'Orthodox'. If necessary I will then use some other descriptor, but first of all I am Orthodox, not Oriental Orthodox.
It's just a thing I have. :-)
We had people from the Russian Church approached communion and they said they were Orthodox when pressed they said Russian, and were not allowed to partake of it.
Yea but in practice that may not always work for converts.. Imagine someone who is German and wants to become Oriental Orthodox and is baptized in the Syriac Orthodox Church and tells people that he is Orthodox. They are likely to ask which one, I don't think saying he is German Orthodox would accurately communicate what he is. If he said that I think they would assume he is Eastern Orthodox or that there is such a thing as a German Orthodox Church. He is probably more likely to say he is Syriac Orthodox..
Speaking as a potential convert (but not a German), yes it will. It will always work, because you adopt and are adopted by the church where you have integrated yourself, because you follow the norms and practices of whatever particular church you are in. If I join the Coptic Orthodox Church, then in time I become Coptic Orthodox (but not, of course, ethnically Egyptian), and would have no problem saying so. Anyone who knows the Copts can see that I am not Egyptian, so it might create a problem for them more than it does for me (but only if they cannot understand that the Coptic Church is a global church). And besides, like Fr. Peter says, it is ORTHODOX FIRST and everything else second.
i was asked where i was from, and when i replied, the priest said, 'oh, i thought you might be coptic', that's despite being pale-skinned and not looking arabic (i since realised our churches are not very strict in keeping the 'no prostrating on sundays' rule).
my friend who was baptised in the syriac church is also white (she is a bit like me in being more arabic than english culturally) and she identifies herself as coptic, because she goes to the coptic church.
for your friend who has a complicated problem, i suggest you talk to the priest (yours or your friend's). or send a pm to someone here. God always has a solution, although it often involves humility and repentance.
I agree with Fr. Peter. But since there is still no community between the Orthodox families, a newcomer will be asked whether he belongs to the Oriental family even if just says I am Orthodox.
We had people from the Russian Church approached communion and they said they were Orthodox when pressed they said Russian, and were not allowed to partake of it.
I always wonder about that. It must really be embarrassing to get rejected right near the priest. Sad part is, they'll probably be really angry afterwards, never come back, and slander the Coptic church's name amongst other members of the community. Its pretty sad.
However to change rites I do believe one must ask permission from their Father of confession. If you swap confession fathers to a different rite you will be under a different bishop, which is why I think you have to ask permission from your Abouna.