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I AM SICK OF EGYPTIANS!
I am constantly told by people in the church on "how to talk to people". That how I speak to others is offensive. Well, a person who I have been speaking with for a while, was an atheist, and finally accepted that God must exist. He became interested in Orthodoxy. I invited him to church and even arranged a meeting with Abouna and told Abouna he was very interested in the Tasbeha and Vespers. Needless to say this man drives a good distance, with high gas prices, and he calls me while I am on the way and says that nobody is there. I called one of the deacons and he says they are at a birthday party and that they wont be there until 7ish(pm). So I am left to either A) Tell this guy the truth or B) Lie to him on behalf of the Church. So I call him and just give a general excuse saying it was my fault and what not. So basically I lied to this man. What does this say about how some of our people speak to non-believers? They dont care? Church is not that important? Nobody, from now on, EVER gets to tell me how to speak to anyone.
I am tired of constantly complaining to people at church about making the church more welcoming to non-believers, and I am shut down. I DO HAVE experience as an atheist and as a protestant I DO KNOW more than Abouna in these areas, that IS a fact. So why am I not listened to? Well the only reason I can think is because nobody actually DOES care. Can anyone tell how enraged I am?!
I dare anyone to post, because I am looking to shred the first smart ass to make a stupid defense of this kind of behavior.
I am tired of constantly complaining to people at church about making the church more welcoming to non-believers, and I am shut down. I DO HAVE experience as an atheist and as a protestant I DO KNOW more than Abouna in these areas, that IS a fact. So why am I not listened to? Well the only reason I can think is because nobody actually DOES care. Can anyone tell how enraged I am?!
I dare anyone to post, because I am looking to shred the first smart ass to make a stupid defense of this kind of behavior.
Comments
lol
Tell that person to first take the log out of their own eyes, before commenting on the speck of dust in yours.
You're very zealous.. and maybe that comes across as aggressive.
You're very Pro Orthodoxy, and you see it as something so precious, and let's face it, many Coptic Christians don't even understand the valuable spiritual heritage they have. They are just born Coptic Orthodox and that's it. They've got no idea on what they have.
Its those who have suffered from protestantism and its fallacies who end up as Orthodox become the strongest defenders of our faith.
Not in all cases however.. There is this Orthodox guy I know who was protestant before and he still prays in tongues (jibberish).
I'd love to arrange a meeting between both of u.
Relax habibi.. you're fine.
If you read the church fathers there is a distinct difference in how they speak to their congregation, which often times is very direct or even scolding, and how they speak to non-believers. And in both cases they may be saying the same thing, just with a different conviction. When your Orthodox more is expected of you, obviously, as opposed to being ignorant of Christianity as a non-believer.
Truth be told, I would rather be direct and honest with our congregation and lose some of them, to make way for those who actually care. I have said it many times before, but I really think that I am not going back to this church, this is the last straw. There is no excuse for this blatant disregard for someone spiritual health.
In Church, this sunday, our priest shouted at someone, and I hated this.. to be honest with u.
Everyone felt humiliated. It wasn't really good.
Maybe abouna had good intentions - but so what? He needs to find a more suitable way to draw people's attention.
I don't get a rock and throw it at your face to remove a fly that's on your nose. Do I????
I remember Gandhi saying "I would be a Christian if it werent for Christians." How true is this statement? I wonder if he had gone to a Coptic church because that is exactly how I feel!!!
From what i understood from your situation in this specific occasion with your guest, i say you were asking too much of other people. meaning that you expected someone there in church to welcome the guy. i don't of you have told the deacons in advance or not but that should of happened. also, i personally don't recommend just sending unbelievers to church alone with out anyone with them. i think some may be overwhelmed with what happens and even lost at many times.....this is not a defense towards to what happened really.
despite all of this thoo, how does this have to do with you being told "you need to learn how to talk to people"?? he couldn't simply because the people who he was fighting against for freedom were Christian. i wouldn't go as far as using this against the whole Church but it is a good example of being Christian by action and not words.
My two cents..
Gonna keep it simple. I think as Egyptians we're obsessed with morals, but we don't pay much concern for ethics. We need to work on this.
Like I said stuff like this is constant. The same thing happened when my father and I came, we drove over an hour to get there, before I lived closer. Often times nobody showed up, or they came rediculously late. Needless to say only one of us still goes. This is not Christianity, this surely is not love.
I am criticized for how I speak to others, yet when I get someone to actually take an interest in the church, they speak to him by snubbing him. Frustration is not even deep enough to express how upset I am.
I just hope that you will not stop struggling. Maybe you can find a different Coptic church to attend, or attend a different church in the non-Chalcedonian communion? If I didn't also have theological doubts about the RC church, this is what I would have done (and in fact did try to do for a little while, first with a different RC church in the same town, then with a Byzantine Catholic church in a different town).
Funny thing is, there is this white guy that comes, I dont know who he is or even his name. He shows up, participates, receives communion and then immediately leaves, so he too must had this same experience. And I am sick of the clergy and their pompous attitude, not all of them for instance Fr. Peter is wonderful. But they think they know everything and therefore an outside opinion is null and void. I think I will just bide my time until I can get to an Ethiopian Orthodox church, to be honest I cannot stand Egyptians anymore, and I mean that as an offense to every Egyptian here too.
Anyway, yes...I think it's better to stay and struggle, but I meant if you absolutely cannot stay, it is better to stay in the communion than to go to another, or even worse to lose faith in God just because you've lost faith in people who serve Him. To be honest as a potential convert I sometimes worry about the things you mention, but I also know if God wants me to be Coptic Orthodox He will help me to endure anything with gladness. It is my job to show up, and God's job to show me His presence there. If people get in the way, that's a different issue. People will always get in the way between you and God.
Are you sick of Greeks?
the greeks that I know, I am quite fond of actually.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11114.msg134368#msg134368 date=1301344271]
Are you sick of Greeks?
the greeks that I know, I am quite fond of actually.
Thanks. Me too
I agree.
I think this is from God.
I was not sure about leaving the COC due to the protestant infiltration of it. I wanted to leave it and become Greek Orthodox.
Now im taking your thread as a sign from God.
Cheers
Im going to join their church. I felt that God is encouraging me through your words.
Our Church is too protestant
Or maybe I don't know what I am talking about... But sometimes I do wish that there were more people in the world that cared.......PPFM.
I love greeks too.
Im going to join their church. I felt that God is encouraging me through your words.
Our Church is too protestant
First, not all Egyptians/Copts are exclusive to "outsiders" who want to join our church. Many are encouraging. Second, you think that Egyptians are the only ones that are lazy in attending vespers or exclusive in terms of visitors? You'd be surprised. An identical situation can easily have occurred in a Greek Orthodox Church. Greeks have a tendency to be exclusive as well. Don't let someone so silly shy you away from the church. The grass is always greener on the other side.
What you really need to do is talk to the Priest privately, dont forget he is human and we all make mistakes but you should tell them that the church lacks this discipline, and perhaps also call your friend and maybe have him come another time or even go out of your way and pick him up (God will reward you for this).
I love greeks too.
Im going to join their church. I felt that God is encouraging me through your words.
Our Church is too protestant
Did you just say what I think you just said (Coptic Orthodox Church is too Protestant)? If so, then i don't know what to tell you.
Aren't we there FOR the people as well? Community? How can we experience God's love and grace and able to practice it, if not for the community. We're not individuals at the Liturgy, we're one body. Something is wrong if we can't experience community together.
holy kiss, anyone?
Zoxsasi, I see the irony of your protest.
The hope is in the new generation that is born and raised in the foreign land from which clergy would sprout and would feel comfortable opening to the outside world.
Thanks.
i think a lot of egyptians and sudanese have learnt to distrust strangers because of terrible things that happened to them back home.
i remember in another church, this old lady telling me how her son used to be bullied for his faith in sudan, and they always had death threats.
then the day the priest's son was murdered, they just panicked and ran out of the country during the night.
people like that will find it hard to make friends outside their trusted community, although this lady did finally talk openly with me after she saw me many times.
i admit that some people are also just lazy, but that happens in any group or community.
it takes time, much prayer, and patience. we are blessed with priests who are very welcoming, so the people follow their example.
if your priest(s) are not welcoming to outsiders, maybe they have had some really bad experiences. it takes much love and prayer sometimes to encourage people out of their comfort zones.
i, personally have had much more problems trying to make friends with and fit in to british churches (when i was protestant, also it took ages with the catholic church i went to) than with the copts. it could be that i am a bit loud ;) but i think it's more because egyptian people aren't that bad :)
Who am I to talk, right? I think you've just convinced me to try harder. to go to meetings and call everyone I can for a ride so that they can go too.