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Our coptic church really started losing it's coptic language

hany58hany58
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Hi All,
I'm one of the people that love coptic hymns to bits, & I love to chant coptic hymns in coptic language. Recently our church decided to chant all the prayers in english language only, this includes tasbeha, liturgy etc. I started feeling that I don't enjoy the prayer in english language only & I really miss praying in coptic. We have only once church in my city so I can't go to another church, I tried many times with abouna & other people but they refused to include coptic in the prayer. What's your opinion? what I should I do?
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Comments

  • sherrymikhail04sherrymikhail04
    Take it to the Bishop! (lol).

    Well, you can't go against Abounas' words... but something does need to be done like you said...
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    baladoos,

    There are arguments on both sides.  The priest has the intimate perspective of the pulse of the community.  Whereas, no one else is privy to all the facts and the necessities.  There should be a spirit of compromise.

    I have my own opinion, which is irrelevant, because my thoughts would probably not be applicable in a parish which I know nothing about.

    There are other ways to be "Coptic" and to utilize Coptic heritage and language.

    The priests are in a very difficult situation.  I dare say:  'a no win' in whatever they do.  They will be criticized for any implementation of service or idea.  The priests are trying to fulfill their role of being fathers, and fatherly.  They have a mission to lead His [the Almighty] Flock to Him [the Almighty].

    I get your point.  I appreciate your dilemma.  I don't have a good answer.

    I also appreciate the dilemma that the priests must endure.
  • lankyknight1990
    Pray the prayers in Coptic in personal prayer time. The Clergy are trying to bring Orthodoxy to the diaspora, the Coptic Language is a beautiful thing, but its not essential to the faith. I pray the Coptic Culture of Language and art doesn't die, but It does have a time and place.

    Pray for the priests, its hard for them because so many different opinions exist.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    it takes a true deacon who knows the hymns by heart to be able to take all those tunes and construct them on text of other languages.....it's not gonna be as good to hear, butgood enough for the sake of others
  • imikhailimikhail
    I suggest to have a liturgy aside from the original one, may be on a Saturday, where it is done all in Coptic or Coptic/English.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Actually, there's a youtube video of some choir from the USA that have done the tasbeha in English - and going by the YouTube comments, a lot of western people seem to like it.

    Try it and tell me what u think. There's one called :"O Sing Unto Him Who Was Crucified for us"
    (Arepsalin).

    I agree , it sounds funkier in Coptic, but there has to come a time when prayer and understanding what you are saying come together.

    It would be interesting to hear the chants of the BOC? I wonder what their chants are like?
  • ophadeceophadece
    A COPTIC priest (or let's say a COPTIC congregation) inside the COPTIC church rejecting COPTIC hymns. Are we nearing the end of days? Well, the last question is a stupid one, I agree, but what about the statement before... sad.
    Oujai
  • imikhailimikhail
    The Coptic Church lost the Coptic language when it adopted the Greek sounds of the alphabet.
  • TITLTITL
    Actually, I'd say the Coptic Church lost the Coptic language once migrants moved to the diaspora and found that English/Dutch/French/Arabic would be easier and more attracting to both youth and adults.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11144.msg134691#msg134691 date=1301504095]
    The Coptic Church lost the Coptic language when it adopted the Greek sounds of the alphabet.

    The Coptic ORTHODOX Church, the Church of Alexandria, is the Church of God who doesn't limit faith and belief in Him and salvation to a language or an ethnicity. For us to change that and limit......we are changing the Church that Jesus established......and plainly heretics.  :)  
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=TITL link=topic=11144.msg134692#msg134692 date=1301504756]
    Actually, I'd say the Coptic Church lost the Coptic language once migrants moved to the diaspora and found that English/Dutch/French/Arabic would be easier and more attracting to both youth and adults.

    haha....you're funny. if those people would of have not migrated to outside egypt, they would of have never ever learned about coptic as a language.

    think about it, it's like trade in the business world today......it takes away some jobs in a specific company but bring much more benefits in other ways.
  • imikhailimikhail

    he Coptic ORTHODOX Church, the Church of Alexandria, is the Church of God who doesn't limit faith and belief in Him and salvation to a language or an ethnicity. For us to change that and limit......we are changing the Church that Jesus established......and plainly heretics.

    What is your point minatasgeel. I have not related the language to the faith.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11144.msg134691#msg134691 date=1301504095]
    The Coptic Church lost the Coptic language when it adopted the Greek sounds of the alphabet.


    I personally prefer that it adopted the Greek sounds rather than the Arabic sounds. What's wrong with that?

    French in Quebec sounds totally different than the French in France... so what? Its still French. Cultures and environmental surroundings influence the way a language sounds.

    What made us lose our Coptic Language was the Islamic conquerers that forbade us teaching Coptic in schools as a second language even. They wanted to arabize Egypt, and the way of doing that was to subdue our Coptic Culture.

    The language was kept alive in the Church, through the liturgy, hymns, etc; but had we not taught it in our Churches, we'd have lost it forever. Its quite amazing to still see hymns being sung in this language after centuries of it being subdued.

    I'm not sure what the answer is to this problem. A language is pretty much dead unless we live it, and even think in it. I doubt ANYONE here thinks in Coptic. Do they?

    Yet, we cannot lose Coptic because all our hymns are fixed on this language, and they are truly remarkable hymns. Aren't they???

    I would say that the answer is to educate people on Coptic. But at a state level. This should be allowed in Egypt now.

    Muslims are beginning to call themselves "Coptic Muslims" because they appreciate their heritage as Copts also. But what needs to happen is that schools ought to start teaching it again. Its the only way.

    No one is going to "bin" Coptic... its too great and too closely intertwined with our hymns to do that.

    What do u all think?
  • dzheremi
    For myself, not even Coptic, I would (and do sometimes) pray in Coptic personally at home, baladoos. Of course I don't know very much, so when I do it is just a short "Hiteni" of three or four lines or something similar, but still it is something to connect to the tradition, because I believe it is inherently valuable as a means of expressing fidelity to that tradition. I do that while recognizing that whether you pray in Coptic, or English, or Spanish, or whatever language, you're still praying Coptic prayers if you are in the Coptic tradition. But yes, I agree, the language is given up too easily a lot of the time. It shouldn't be discarded by people of Egyptian descent. I always find it funny that people will complain about their children or the youth in general becoming too Americanized and losing respect for their traditional values, but do not connect it to the loss of the traditional culture itself (which includes language). I'm not Egyptian, but this is the sort of thing that all communities struggle with, so I've heard it a lot in the Hispanic community, and they're not even generally losing the language! But the kids might lose their respect for the language and prefer to speak English, or become embarrassed when their parents struggle with English in front of friends or teachers, or whatever. It's sad.
  • imikhailimikhail

    I personally prefer that it adopted the Greek sounds rather than the Arabic sounds.

    I am not sure I follow the argument here. Arian Moftah in 1857 adopted the Greek sounds on false premise. This was the turning point of losing the heritage.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    imikhail, sorry for quoting you. i didn't mean to. i wanted to respond generally to the whole post. asl i know where is this topic is going towards and nothing will be solved and instead, arguments will rise. so i thought to just put my mark now wea bass.......kollo ye-oll elle-howa 'ayzo now.
  • hany58hany58
    I just came back from Egypt 3 weeks ago, & nearly every liturgy I attended was prayed in 60 to 70% coptic. does this mean that all the congregation understand every single coptic word? answer is: No, but they still love it because it is the original tradition & the tune is correct. I don't know why we always complain that we don't understand coptic language in the West. Why don't we keep our original traditions? these are very valuable.
  • anba bolaanba bola
    It is essential for the congregation to understand what they are saying. If this can be done, then it is OK to have the prayers in Coptic. However, we are in a different country, and if we want to be successful in our missionary work, we can't always pray in a language that people don't understand nor have any ties to. If the Priest judges that praying in English is the best, then so be it. We have to be a little selfless so our brothers can understand what they are saying.

    Imagine you are a roman catholic and have one Orthodox Church in the area which happens to be Coptic. You will not have any ties to the Coptic language, you wouldn't care about the language at all (dzheremi is probably one of the few exceptions). It would be a hindrance to you in understanding the liturgy and in progressing in your faith if you were to become Orthodox. The Church spoke mainly Greek in the very beginning, but didn't force everyone to pray in Greek. The Apostles didn't go to Egypt and force the Coptic Speakers in the south to pray in Greek. We are first and foremost Orthodox. Coptic is a culture or a language. It is a series of sounds put together for communication, and once we depart this world, it will pass away. Our faith is eternal and has existed and will exist for all eternity. Are we willing to risk the salvation of those around us over a heritage?

    If Coptic becomes a hindrance to our work here and to our understanding, then the necessary action must occur. If it is not, then we can continue praying in it, which is exactly why Priests or local Bishops should be the ones deciding; because they know what is best for each parish.

    Our parish made this transition a while ago, and at first I was very upset and completely against it, mainly because the tunes are much more beautiful in Coptic. However, I came to realize that a) if I don't understand what I'm saying then I'm praising God with my mouth only and that b) There are converts attending our parish who need the liturgy in their language. I still prefer Coptic, if I am able to read the words in English next to it.


    I hope this post isn't taken the wrong way. I actually prefer Coptic, when I can read the meaning of the words in English, but I feel that if we are to work towards the salvation of those around us, we must use discernment. I believe it should be used when it doesn't hinder the salvation of others, but if it does then it is up to the priest to decide what to do.
  • ophadeceophadece
    DEar anba Bola,
    I'm surprised that you can argue that way even though churches not only in the diaspora are using projectors and kholagy's in different languages, but hey, all of that doesn't matter, does it? The more you compromise the weaker you get...
    Oujai
  • anba bolaanba bola
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11144.msg134725#msg134725 date=1301519465]
    DEar anba Bola,
    I'm surprised that you can argue that way even though churches not only in the diaspora are using projectors and kholagy's in different languages, but hey, all of that doesn't matter, does it? The more you compromise the weaker you get...
    Oujai

    Ophadace,

    That is actually one of the reasons why I don't think praying in Coptic isn't a big deal if everyone present can read Coptic. However if you are a recent convert you probably wouldn't be able to read coptic and wouldn't be able to participate. If we expect the number of converts that we should be having than this is a real problem, because it takes away from their ability to participate. Liturgy means "the work of the people" not "the work of those that can read coptic and use a kholagy." His Holiness when asked about why we still use Coptic responded that we still use it "because many of the hymns do not flow whatsoever in a translation, so we would be losing many of the hymns of the church." 

    As a point of comparison (because it is really hard to understand this, while most of us can read and understand at least a little Coptic) imagine that you had to attend a Russian Orthodox parish. Certainly you would be disappointed if every Sunday you could only participate in 30% of the hymns because you don't understand Russian. If I was in the situation, I would be very upset as I wouldn't be able to enjoy the liturgy to its fullest dimensions. If it was one hymn here or there it would be fine, but if it is too much it becomes a hindrance to the convert.

    That is my only complaint as long as we have kholagys and projectors. This is also why it is up to each Priest or Bishop.
  • geomike
    All the newcomers won't be able to say Tai shori right away, not even The praxis response because they are NEW. Just because they are new doesn't mean we are killing their spirituality in the church because there are translations in the same books. Also the coptic is written in the kholagies in coptic-english and coptic-arabic so there is no way that they can't learn and no way they don't understand what they are saying.
  • Ekrom
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11144.msg134705#msg134705 date=1301508025]

    I personally prefer that it adopted the Greek sounds rather than the Arabic sounds.

    I am not sure I follow the argument here. Arian Moftah in 1857 adopted the Greek sounds on false premise. This was the turning point of losing the heritage.


    imikhail, can you explain?  what are the "greek sounds".  Are you saying we're not pronouncing coptic correctly?
  • imikhailimikhail
    Dear Ekrom,

    This is a long history and I rather not overwhelm you by it. So, I will be brief and I can point you to different sources to learn more if you are interested.

    Basically, during the 1850's there was a movement in the Church headed by HH Pope Cyril the 4th to unite the Coptic Church with the Melekite one (the Greek Church in Egypt). As a result of this move, the Coptic Church adopted several of the Greek Hymns which remained till today. However, the way the Copts pronounce the Coptic letters was different than the Greeks. Pope Cyril wanted to conform the Coptic sounds to the Greek one under the premise that Coptic alphabet is Greek and the Greeks are in a better position to lee us how should we sound the alphabet.

    Aryan Mofta7 spearheaded this project and wrote a book about his rationale behind changing the Coptic sounds to the sound more like the Greek letters. He also changed the names of the Coptic letters from their original names to the Greek  For example, he changed the "B" letter from "W" and "b" to "V" and "b".

    These new modifications were introduced in th ehymns and to the "klereekeya" graduates and thus spread till this day.

    This is just a snapshot of what happened.

    Thanks.

  • ophadeceophadece
    DEar anba Bola,
    I need a computer to answer your post. Even though I promised someone else before, can't remember who, to not discuss this very point again.
    Oujai
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear anba Bola,
    I am on a computer now, so let me address some of your points. First of all, liturgy is the work of the people. Very true. How do you define people? How do you define the characteristics of people? If you reduce all the work of the people to verbal understanding then I think there is a grave flaw in that argument. In fact, if liturgy is the work of the people, that means that we are all united beyond a mere language, aren't we? Or should we not be? Then why Coptic is koq /kokh/ now? In fact, if we use your argument to say that converts should understand what they are praying, so what about native speakers? Arabic speakers for that matter? How would they feel? I would imagine you are someone living in a large community in the diaspora with many people from that country are attending the liturgy, and for them the Mass should change how it is "said". We are not even talking about prayers, are we?
    OK, if that is what you think, then let me ask this question: now I am living in Newcastle, in England, and we have a handful of British people attending the church, and many second generation Egyptians who are without doubt reluctant to understand or participate in Arabic responses, or Coptic ones, and when it is said in English, they barely look up from their touch phones. The main dilemma is that we have a large community of Ethiopians. What do you reckon? Should we not adopt (at least partly) an Ethiopian approach and sing some hymns in Ethiopian? Yes or no? Clearly the Ethiopian community I may argue is larger than the Arabic-speaking one (I am not exaggerating). A Romanian came and attended a couple of times and we don't have on our projectors Romanian translation, or kholagies for that matter. She didn't even understand English. What do you suggest? Or are they not converts, so they should be discounted from that argument?
    OK, if that is what you think let me tell you my experience. I used to live in Egypt before I came to the UK, and I attended a Roman Catholic (as far as I can remember) twice in Zamalek district in Cairo. The congregation were a mix between French, English, and Egyptians. The priest was Australian, and the head deacon was Egyptian. You know what? There was only one hymns sheet, in what language? You guessed it! English. Even the second time when the priest was not there the head deacon conducted the prayers (to a community not more than five or six couples) in what language? You guessed it! English.
    OK, so bottom line is we are COPTS in the COPTIC church praying the COPTIC liturgy (not any other), why on earth should we stick to the COPTIC language?
    Oujai
  • [Deleted User]
    ~
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Guys,

    We really ought to start learning Coptic..there's NO OTHER WAY.

    we cannot pray in English, nor in Coptic -can we.

    We cannot pray in English because the hymns sound bad, and we cannot pray in Coptic , because we don't understand it.

    The answer is to learn Coptic.

    Wow... we might as well start a civil war and create our own Country. This is so complicated.

  • imikhailimikhail
    As much as I love Coptic and the Coptic heritage and am against GB, I would not burden any convert, even a Muslim who know Arabic, to learn Coptic unless he/she wants to.

    I believe the ideal situation is to have missionary churches to attend to the needs of the converts with their own cultural music.

    I am certain if we in the Diaspora get hung on Coptic then we will never reach out to the natives.

    Thanks.
  • dzheremi
    I'm a potential convert, and I want all the Coptic I can get. I want more Coptic than the Copts have. Who are all these converts out there who want into the church but only on their terms? Yes, the liturgy is already prayed in English (or Spanish, or whatever) in the diaspora, but why should it come at the expense of Coptic? If you can be bilingual (and Egyptians in the diaspora of all people should know that), then you know you don't HAVE to give up one for the other. It only seems that way in the USA (I don't know about elsewhere) because the surrounding society is so aggressively monolingual. It seems that people are just afraid that it will scare away outsiders to see a church with its roots in Egypt behave like a church with its roots in Egypt. There is some truth to that, but you know what? I can learn Coptic out of a book probably even better than I can from church (if the OP's situation is not an anomaly), but I can't attend liturgy out of a book. I want to go to the liturgy for the WHOLE package, and that includes the Coptic hymns, but also the theology expressed in them, and the incense, and the prayer, and the whole atmosphere. If you start chipping away at the traditions little by little (or a lot), rather than letting them evolve naturally (keeping a strong hold on the tradition, but sinking deep roots into the new lands through evangelism and successful integration), then the thing that would attract converts in the first place eventually will be gone. The Coptic church will be just like any other, and why go to it if it is no different than the mega church down the street?  
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    Dzheremi, I want Orthodoxy in English and all the converts and enquirers and even members of other Orthodox churches who worship with us want Orthodoxy in English. I am not Egyptian and I don't live in England so why should I be required to worship in someone elses language, and not even in the language those other people communicate in?
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