What is the Incense censor? It is a symbol of St Mary – a real person - who really carried the Divine fire!
Yes this is true. However, we must realize what the censor is. It is an altar that is dedicated to God and to His worship. We must differentiate between a the actual thing and its symbolism so that we have a clear understanding of how to treat it.
in that sense we're the incense censor too
No we are not. We are not censors used in the liturgical worship. Only one censor is used in the liturgy that is dedicated for the liturgical worship. Please, make a distinction between meditation on the rites and the actual worship
Unfortunately, we have turned to symbolism and trying to explain and rationalize our rituals to the extent we lost the true meaning of the liturgical worship.
Haha, I thought it was pretty funny. Good job guys. Anyone so offended by this is taking it way too seriously...and clearly they are blind to the fact that more ludicrous and offensive behavior occurs at our churches every Sunday by women/girls dressed inappropriately, people playing games and texting on their phones, and people joking around during mass. I have even seen one of my peers say "f***" during mass, eat a piece of chocolate, then go take communion because "his mom would be mad at him if he didn't".
Favorite parts: "It's Holy Water.......min Rabena" And "I know what you did last Pascha"....that's just gold lol.
The behavior of the least reverent is not a good measure for the rest of us. Shouldn't we look up to the best examples, instead of looking down on the worst as though we're better than them?
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=6443.msg135432#msg135432 date=1302154117] The behavior of the least reverent is not a good measure for the rest of us. Shouldn't we look up to the best examples, instead of looking down on the worst as though we're better than them?
Indeed. We are called Christians. We are called after our Master and we are expected to behave like our Master. Christ is our gold standard, and we are expected to 'be perfect, just as [our] Father in heaven is perfect'.
The altar is holy and commanding of our reverence but it serves a finite and limited use
Lifeindeath
What do you mean by limited use? The Eucharist offering is infinite in its effect. Are you equating the time of the liturgy to limited use?
The altar is the throne of our Lord wher He sits and offers Himself to us.
Thanks
Yes, this is a beautiful way of explaining it, I think the best way to clarify is to add to this and say that He assumes His throne on the altar during the liturgy before He takes His equally rightful and everlasting seat as the Lord and King in the throne of our hearts when we partake of Him.
He does not personally unified Himself with the throne of the altar, but He will unify Himself eternally with us by sitting as Lord and Master in the throne of our hearts.
The earthy altars we consecrate the mysteries on will wear, erode and eventually come to the end of their useful life as will we but it is only granted to us the promise of His resurrection.
What is the Incense censor? It is a symbol of St Mary – a real person - who really carried the Divine fire!
Yes this is true. However, we must realize what the censor is. It is an altar that is dedicated to God and to His worship. We must differentiate between a the actual thing and its symbolism so that we have a clear understanding of how to treat it.
in that sense we're the incense censor too
No we are not. We are not censors used in the liturgical worship. Only one censor is used in the liturgy that is dedicated for the liturgical worship. Please, make a distinction between meditation on the rites and the actual worship
Unfortunately, we have turned to symbolism and trying to explain and rationalize our rituals to the extent we lost the true meaning of the liturgical worship.
May I respond by asking a couple questions - why do you suppose that we have rituals? Is it just simply for the sake of doing them?
Haha, I thought it was pretty funny. Good job guys. Anyone so offended by this is taking it way too seriously...and clearly they are blind to the fact that more ludicrous and offensive behavior occurs at our churches every Sunday by women/girls dressed inappropriately, people playing games and texting on their phones, and people joking around during mass. I have even seen one of my peers say "f***" during mass, eat a piece of chocolate, then go take communion because "his mom would be mad at him if he didn't".
Favorite parts: "It's Holy Water.......min Rabena" And "I know what you did last Pascha"....that's just gold lol.
It is because of the unchecked behavior, that you cited, that a video like this had a life to being made.
He does not personally unified Himself with the throne of the altar, but He will unify Himself eternally with us by sitting as Lord and Master in the throne of our hearts.
The earthy altars we consecrate the mysteries on will wear, erode and eventually come to the end of their useful life as will we but it is only granted to us the promise of His resurrection.
I am afraid this is on the edge of Protestantism as they use the same explanations to belittle the rituals. The altar is consecrated with the holy Myroon, the same oil that we are confirmed with. So, how He is not unified with the Altar?
To get to Resurrection, we must first get to His table; His altar. We would not have an eternal life unless we eat and drink from the Altar.
Again, there is a difference between spiritual meditation and ritual orders that have been put by the Lord Himself and passed to us through His apostles.
I agree entirely with imikhail. The altar and the iconostasis and indeed the church itself are consecrated and become and remain holy at all times. They are not made holy at some times and not at others. If a building were to be turned to some other use it would normally be deconsecrated. The throne of a king is not a common chair when he is not sitting on it. Indeed for a common person to even touch the throne would be death, whether or not the king was sitting on his throne.
He does not personally unified Himself with the throne of the altar, but He will unify Himself eternally with us by sitting as Lord and Master in the throne of our hearts.
The earthy altars we consecrate the mysteries on will wear, erode and eventually come to the end of their useful life as will we but it is only granted to us the promise of His resurrection.
I am afraid this is on the edge of Protestantism as they use the same explanations to belittle the rituals. The altar is consecrated with the holy Myroon, the same oil that we are confirmed with. So, how He is not unified with the Altar?
To get to Resurrection, we must first get to His table; His altar. We would not have an eternal life unless we eat and drink from the Altar.
Again, there is a difference between spiritual meditation and ritual orders that have been put by the Lord Himself and passed to us through His apostles.
Thanks.
But if we say that St Mary is the eastern gate and that it remains shut because the Prince ate bread there as it told to us in Ezekiel why is this controversial?
Clearly the analogies are exactly the same no?
Our mother the Virgin is holy before, during and after the time that she is the second heaven. There is nothing in my post to illustrate that I confined the time the altar was holy to when the Son is on it, you've just invented this interpretation. In the liturgy don't we say - the holies are for the holies? I think you need to take more care to read accurately so that you'd make an inadvertent accusation at a brother.
There is a very deep relationship between symbols, theology and rituals I don't think you can separate and split them like you're implying otherwise that would truly be Unorthodox. Our worship isn't just outward rituals, it is something God intended to be both outwardly and inwardly deep and engages every part of our mind, body and spirit; it is also arranged to show to us that something is really happening when we ascend to heaven to partake of the Eucharist, the altar being holy is a fundamental part in making this happen but it is not enough to say the altar alone is responsible for the integrity of our Eucharist.
If it were not for the teachings about our worship, the significance of the altar, Eucharist, incense and so on from the Bible we would know nothing about it, you cannot make this division which you are claiming because to quote Bishop Kallistos Orthopraxy must be united with Orthodoxy, the right practices with the right theology. If we split one from the other we are no longer the Orthodox Church, we mightn't be protestant but we'll become something else equally sinful.
The Presence of the second person of the Trinity in relation to the altar is very different to the Eucharist, firstly because the performance of the Mayroon is ascribed to the Holy Spirit not the Son and secondly the Mayroon is for the consecration of the altar where the Bread and Wine truly is the Body and Blood of our Lord. Of course in both instances the altar and our Lord are holy but we mean this in ways that merit distinction and so I was being distinct.
I confined the purpose of the altar and the incense censor to time and space, its based on the expressions that David uses in the psalms where it say the Lord is worshipped on His footstool (the earth) while scripture also teaches us that the earth will be burnt up with a fervent heat as their time comes to an end. The earth is indeed a very dignified place for the Lord to rest His Feet and His presence blesses it but it will nonetheless be destroyed when its time comes.
[quote author=CopticChurchForever link=topic=6443.msg135429#msg135429 date=1302152024] Haha, I thought it was pretty funny. Good job guys. Anyone so offended by this is taking it way too seriously...and clearly they are blind to the fact that more ludicrous and offensive behavior occurs at our churches every Sunday by women/girls dressed inappropriately, people playing games and texting on their phones, and people joking around during mass. I have even seen one of my peers say "f***" during mass, eat a piece of chocolate, then go take communion because "his mom would be mad at him if he didn't".
Favorite parts: "It's Holy Water.......min Rabena" And "I know what you did last Pascha"....that's just gold lol.
I don't think we need to tell you what is wrong in your post. It's pretty obvious
[quote author=geomike link=topic=6443.msg135511#msg135511 date=1302218945] [quote author=CopticChurchForever link=topic=6443.msg135429#msg135429 date=1302152024] Haha, I thought it was pretty funny. Good job guys. Anyone so offended by this is taking it way too seriously...and clearly they are blind to the fact that more ludicrous and offensive behavior occurs at our churches every Sunday by women/girls dressed inappropriately, people playing games and texting on their phones, and people joking around during mass. I have even seen one of my peers say "f***" during mass, eat a piece of chocolate, then go take communion because "his mom would be mad at him if he didn't".
Favorite parts: "It's Holy Water.......min Rabena" And "I know what you did last Pascha"....that's just gold lol.
I don't think we need to tell you what is wrong in your post. It's pretty obvious
There is nothing in my post to illustrate that I confined the time the altar was holy to when the Son is on it, you've just invented this interpretation.
Let’s see what you said earlier:
The altar is holy and commanding of our reverence but it serves a finite and limited use, the purpose of the altar isn't for our perpetual devotion, it is for our sanctification – in a sense the altar is a disposable instrument in God’s eyes for our sake, God will destroy the altar in a heartbeat and the Church with it when the end of making us His living altars is achieved. God gets no pleasure from these altars they cannot please Him, God's concern is for us whose primary service as St Paul describes it is the presentation of our bodies to Him as a pure and acceptable sacrifice - this is human worship!
The controversial words are in bold.
The altar does not serve a limited use .. the service of the liturgy offers a sacrifice that is unlimited in its effectiveness.
Yes, the altar does deserve our perpetual devotion. Let us see what the Bible says about this:
Exodus 30:8 “Aaron shall burn incense on it, a perpetual incense before the Lord throughout your generations.” If this was said of the OT worship where the sacrifice were animal ones, how much honorable is the worship of the NT where the offering is God Himself.
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations," Says the Lord of hosts
The phrase “from the rising of the sun, even to its going down” signifies our devotion an d utmost respect. The question is where else this incense could be offered except in the altar of the NT.
Let me ask you, where did you get the idea that the altar is a disposable instrument in God’s eyes for our sake? Is this your interpretation? If not from where did you get it?
, God will destroy the altar in a heartbeat and the Church with it when the end of making us His living altars is achieved.
Did God reveal to you that He will destroy the altar in a heartbeat?
when the end of making us His living altars
We were made His living altars in baptism, yet He did not destroy the Church as you are suggesting.
God gets no pleasure from these altars they cannot please Him
Did God tell you that?
So when we offer the Eucharist in the liturgy and God is present with His angels and saints; He is truly upset (according to you)
Then how come we say with David the King: “But as for me, I will come into Your house in the multitude of Your mercy; In fear of You I will worship toward Your holy temple.”. Are we approaching an angry God?
God's concern is for us whose primary service as St Paul describes it is the presentation of our bodies to Him as a pure and acceptable sacrifice - this is human worship!
You claim that the Lord’s primary service is our human worship.
First, what is this human worship you mention? Is it the liturgical one that requires the altar?
Second, the verse that you are alluding to is “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.” Romans 12:1
Where does it say “primary” and where does it say “human worship” as if we can worship apart from the liturgical services and the altar from which we receive His body and blood that gives us the strength to offer the reasonable service St Paul is mentioning; fighting our lusts and temptations.
St Paul here urges the Gentiles to look at the Jews and learn from their mistakes by leaving the bodily lusts and he is not diminishing the altar as you suggest
These words of yours are utterly Unorthodox and I will not tolerate it.
the altar being holy is a fundamental part in making this happen but it is not enough to say the altar alone is responsible for the integrity of our Eucharist.
What do you mean by “the integrity of our Eucharist”? Did you hear or read this expression somewhere or is it the fruit of your own mind.
Do we subject the Eucharist to our own minds and determine the integrity of God?
The Presence of the second person of the Trinity in relation to the altar is very different to the Eucharist, firstly because the performance of the Mayroon is ascribed to the Holy Spirit not the Son and secondly the Mayroon is for the consecration of the altar where the Bread and Wine truly is the Body and Blood of our Lord. Of course in both instances the altar and our Lord are holy but we mean this in ways that merit distinction and so I was being distinct.
You CANNOT separate or ascribe the act of salvation to one hypostasis. The three Persons of the Holy Trinity work with us for our salvation.
The consecration of the altar is essential for the Eucharist which is essential for our salvation.
The holy Myroon is used for the altar so that it becomes the dwelling of God just the same way when we are confirmed and consecrated with it so we too can become the dwelling place of God.
That is why we ascribe all holiness to the altar and also ascribe all holiness to our bodies because both became the dwelling place of our Lord.
All of the liturgical prayers are aimed toward the three Persons of the Holy Trinity. Without the Holy Trinity there is no Eucharist. Without the Holy Trinity there is no consecration of our bodies.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO ALTARS (in terms of Holiness).
All of the altars we have are symbols for the living altars where God lives - which is us!
This is incorrect according to the Bible and the teaching of the Church.
In Isaiah 19:19 the prophecy concerning the altar was the Christian altar for the Eucharist. "In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its border." This cannot be a symbol of us as the quote suggests. We cannot offer the Eucharist upon ourselves.
"For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations," Says the Lord of hosts." Malachi 1:11
Again this cannot refer to us but to the Christian altar, the only place the Eucharist can be offered.
Lifeindeath,
Is this your own meditation? If not please provide your resource.
Since we are so insistent on defending the altar shouldn't we reverence the most important living ones rather than the one with no will that serves only as a symbol of the ones which will live forever?
Here the writer believes that the altar is a mere stone. Yes, it is. But it is one that is consecrated with the Myroon and is the Holy of Holies of the NT. God was so strict in the OT regarding who and when to enter the Holy of Holies. So too, in the NT, the Church put strict rules of who should enter the altar and there are canons that show how awesome and holy the altar is.
All of the altars we have are symbols for the living altars where God lives - which is us!
This is incorrect according to the Bible and the teaching of the Church.
In Isaiah 19:19 the prophecy concerning the altar was the Christian altar for the Eucharist. "In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its border." This cannot be a symbol of us as the quote suggests. We cannot offer the Eucharist upon ourselves.
"For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations," Says the Lord of hosts." Malachi 1:11
Again this cannot refer to us but to the Christian altar, the only place the Eucharist can be offered.
Lifeindeath,
Is this your own meditation? If not please provide your resource.
St Cyril in his work 'On worship in Spirit and truth' is paraphrased by Greek Orthodox Scholar Fr. George Dion. Dragas in the book 'St Cyril of Alexandria's Teaching on the Priesthood' who is a well known and respected scholar on the life and theology of St Cyril:
[quote=Fr Dragas]...the fire at the altar that is unceasing is the Holy Spirit that has come down and remains on Christ (who is the reality that the altar typifies), although he was always in Him by nature, since He is understood to be and always is God. That means that whoever believes in Christ and becomes Christ's is also a recipient of the Holy Spirit and becomes himself a divine altar... Priests cannot function properly unless they are mystical altars in themselves where Christ and the Spirit dwell unceasingly.
Since we are so insistent on defending the altar shouldn't we reverence the most important living ones rather than the one with no will that serves only as a symbol of the ones which will live forever?
Here the writer believes that the altar is a mere stone. Yes, it is. But it is one that is consecrated with the Myroon and is the Holy of Holies of the NT. God was so strict in the OT regarding who and when to enter the Holy of Holies. So too, in the NT, the Church put strict rules of who should enter the altar and there are canons that show how awesome and holy the altar is.
Hi Brother,
Please don't continue to misinterpret what I have written, I am not an attacker of the faith. I believe and love the teachings of the fathers and I seek to preserved the traditions of the Apostles.
I just came back from a Church camp this weekend where we took an ordinary table and the priest prepared it the night before and made it into a holy place where would conduct the mass the following morning. When we were finished we removed everything from the area. The table was from a common area and had been used for serving food and so, it will eventually be used in this away again now that we have left the camp site.
I performed service in Fiji where we would make do in very confined and ignoble places because the church there is so impoverished, in one place we pray the mass in a very small garage.
I am not trying to say anything against the sanctification of the altar or the Holiest place, if I have said anything errant may God forgive me, I was trying to state that these altars which we use are temporal because they are but symbols of the altar which is made without hands - Christ Himself.
Fr George Dragas on his summarisation of St Cyril's book on priesthood 'On worship in Spirit and Truth' says:
[quote=Fr George Dragas]St Cyril explains that the fire on the altar is unceasing, because "it is not external, but internal, to it"; "it is fire from above, from heaven." This "fire" is nothing else but the "Glory of God," which fills the altar. The figure of the fire, St Cyril explains , actually denotes "the divine nature," but there is a deeper more mystical meaning to all this. "the divine altar is in fact a type of Emmanuel Himself, through whom we have access to God the Father."
Hence our altar is a type for Christ Himself, this is extrapolated further by St Cyril in His own words:
The Church is One, and the mystery of Christ is One and there is no sacrifice that is lawful, worthy not to be rejected and pleasing to God, unless it is offered in the One Tabernacle, which is the Church.
The Presence of the second person of the Trinity in relation to the altar is very different to the Eucharist, firstly because the performance of the Mayroon is ascribed to the Holy Spirit not the Son and secondly the Mayroon is for the consecration of the altar where the Bread and Wine truly is the Body and Blood of our Lord. Of course in both instances the altar and our Lord are holy but we mean this in ways that merit distinction and so I was being distinct.
You CANNOT separate or ascribe the act of salvation to one hypostasis. The three Persons of the Holy Trinity work with us for our salvation.
The consecration of the altar is essential for the Eucharist which is essential for our salvation.
The holy Myroon is used for the altar so that it becomes the dwelling of God just the same way when we are confirmed and consecrated with it so we too can become the dwelling place of God.
That is why we ascribe all holiness to the altar and also ascribe all holiness to our bodies because both became the dwelling place of our Lord.
All of the liturgical prayers are aimed toward the three Persons of the Holy Trinity. Without the Holy Trinity there is no Eucharist. Without the Holy Trinity there is no consecration of our bodies.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO ALTARS (in terms of Holiness).
Hi Brother,
I concur with all you've said except for the last couple lines, I fear you have misunderstood what I have written.
The distinction I was making was not a statement about how we should separate the Trinity its about how God sanctifies the altar which is different to Christs Body and Blood. We use the expression of saint Cyril Mia Physis to describe the Incarnate nature of the Word and how this truly is His Body and Blood. It doesn't mean that God hasn't sanctified the altar, it means He hasn't formed a Personal or Hypostatic union with it using St Cyril's Christological term.
the altar being holy is a fundamental part in making this happen but it is not enough to say the altar alone is responsible for the integrity of our Eucharist.
What do you mean by “the integrity of our Eucharist”? Did you hear or read this expression somewhere or is it the fruit of your own mind.
Do we subject the Eucharist to our own minds and determine the integrity of God?
Without altar there is no Church
With no Church, there is no Eucharist
Hi Brother,
I used the expression 'fundamental' when describing the role of the altar with regard to the Eucharist and I mean that in the fullest sense of the word.
St Ignatius one of the earliest Bishops, appointed by St John the Apostle wrote this concerning the integrity of the Eucharist:
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1, 110 A.D.: Let that Eucharist be held valid which is offered by the bishop or by the one to whom the bishop has committed this charge. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 7, 110 A.D.: I desire the Bread of God, the heavenly Bread, the Bread of Life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; I wish the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadephians, 4:1, 110 A.D.: Be ye careful therefore to observe one eucharist (for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup unto union in His blood; there is one altar, as there is one bishop, together with the presbytery and the deacons my fellow-servants), that whatsoever ye do, ye may do it after God.
There is nothing in my post to illustrate that I confined the time the altar was holy to when the Son is on it, you've just invented this interpretation.
Let’s see what you said earlier:
The altar is holy and commanding of our reverence but it serves a finite and limited use, the purpose of the altar isn't for our perpetual devotion, it is for our sanctification – in a sense the altar is a disposable instrument in God’s eyes for our sake, God will destroy the altar in a heartbeat and the Church with it when the end of making us His living altars is achieved. God gets no pleasure from these altars they cannot please Him, God's concern is for us whose primary service as St Paul describes it is the presentation of our bodies to Him as a pure and acceptable sacrifice - this is human worship!
The controversial words are in bold.
The altar does not serve a limited use .. the service of the liturgy offers a sacrifice that is unlimited in its effectiveness.
Yes, the altar does deserve our perpetual devotion. Let us see what the Bible says about this:
Exodus 30:8 “Aaron shall burn incense on it, a perpetual incense before the Lord throughout your generations.” If this was said of the OT worship where the sacrifice were animal ones, how much honorable is the worship of the NT where the offering is God Himself.
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations," Says the Lord of hosts
The phrase “from the rising of the sun, even to its going down” signifies our devotion an d utmost respect. The question is where else this incense could be offered except in the altar of the NT.
Let me ask you, where did you get the idea that the altar is a disposable instrument in God’s eyes for our sake? Is this your interpretation? If not from where did you get it?
, God will destroy the altar in a heartbeat and the Church with it when the end of making us His living altars is achieved.
Did God reveal to you that He will destroy the altar in a heartbeat?
when the end of making us His living altars
We were made His living altars in baptism, yet He did not destroy the Church as you are suggesting.
God gets no pleasure from these altars they cannot please Him
Did God tell you that?
So when we offer the Eucharist in the liturgy and God is present with His angels and saints; He is truly upset (according to you)
Then how come we say with David the King: “But as for me, I will come into Your house in the multitude of Your mercy; In fear of You I will worship toward Your holy temple.”. Are we approaching an angry God?
God's concern is for us whose primary service as St Paul describes it is the presentation of our bodies to Him as a pure and acceptable sacrifice - this is human worship!
You claim that the Lord’s primary service is our human worship.
First, what is this human worship you mention? Is it the liturgical one that requires the altar?
Second, the verse that you are alluding to is “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.” Romans 12:1
Where does it say “primary” and where does it say “human worship” as if we can worship apart from the liturgical services and the altar from which we receive His body and blood that gives us the strength to offer the reasonable service St Paul is mentioning; fighting our lusts and temptations.
St Paul here urges the Gentiles to look at the Jews and learn from their mistakes by leaving the bodily lusts and he is not diminishing the altar as you suggest
These words of yours are utterly Unorthodox and I will not tolerate it.
Hi Brother,
This will be the last time that I plan to reply, I fear that this dialogue is not edifying anyone and I don't want to participate in a fruitless and hate filled discussion that both reflects bad on us as Christians and doesn't contribute anything to the faith.
The teachings of the fathers are clear - may they stand, I fear that my babbling adds nothing to them and I do not wish to err in word or deed.
Our altars made with human hands are but a type of the Heavenly altar made without hands. My intention was to separate the earthly altars and the heavenly altar as one is a type after the other.
St Cyril writes the following concerning the perpetual sacrifice:
[quote=Fr Dragas]Finally, St Cyril adds that the whole burnt offering has to burn on the altar night and day, because it signifies Christ's fragrance that never ends.
I said that God gets no pleasure from the altar in reference to the earthly one made of human hands because it has no will and cannot please Him. When I say cannot please I mean cannot do anything because it is an inanimate object. The thing that is pleasing to God is the One that it is a type of.
I feel now after consulting the fathers and my priest I am comfortable that I did not err theologically but the distinction while it can be made is not correct because the devotion we offer at our earthly altar is directed to the unmade altar. In this I have indeed erred.
Please consult this podcast for my references to the body and human worship:
I commend you for submission to the teachings of the Church. I commend you for going back and consulting your spiritual fathers. I commend you coming back and sharing what you have learnt.
Indeed, the Christian worship is centered around the liturgical service in which we are united with the Lord. This service cannot be conducted without the altar which in God's mind has a central role in the OT worship as well as in the NT.
Our bodies can be altars not in the same sense as offering the Eucharist but in the sense that the body itself becomes a sacrifice. This is accomplished when we fast, serve, visit the poor and the sick, praise, joy in the Lord.
Please, consult the following article for the New Testament Sacrifices at:
I agree that the altar that is consecrated with the holy Myroon, where the Eucharist is offered, is a type of Christ Himself for through it we obtain forgiveness. That is why all holiness befits the altar.
God sanctifies our offerings, the bread and wine and change them into His own flesh and blood. We are united with Him in the sense that our minds, our wills become under His command.
It is important to note that the only hypoststic union that took place between a body and the 2nd Person, of the Holy Trinity, was that of St Mary's in order that incarnation could take place. Our union with the Lord is by no means hypostatic but merely a dwelling. That is why St Paul called those who are baptized as an altar since we are anointed by the holy oil just like the altar is and became dedicated for His service just like the altar. So, in essence we are the symbols of the altar where the oblations are offered.
From God's compassion, He lets us become a symbol of His altar and become a sacrifice as He became an unending sacrifice for us. We were dedicated by the Myroon as His altar is and can offer sacrifices as the God uses the altar to offer Himself.
On a side note, when Abouna uses any table to offer the Eucharist, he uses a holy tablet "allo7 almokaddas" upon which is placed the chair containing the chalice. The holy table is anointed with the Holy Myroon and is used outside a church for the Eucharist offering as well as inside the church if the altar is not consecrated.
I hope these notes clarify the confusion and my apologies if you took my comments as harsh. I believe we need to be very clear when we speak about our precious faith especially on a forum like this where there are visitors from various backgrounds read our comments.
Comments
No we are not. We are not censors used in the liturgical worship. Only one censor is used in the liturgy that is dedicated for the liturgical worship. Please, make a distinction between meditation on the rites and the actual worship
Unfortunately, we have turned to symbolism and trying to explain and rationalize our rituals to the extent we lost the true meaning of the liturgical worship.
Favorite parts:
"It's Holy Water.......min Rabena"
And "I know what you did last Pascha"....that's just gold lol.
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=6443.msg135432#msg135432 date=1302154117]
The behavior of the least reverent is not a good measure for the rest of us. Shouldn't we look up to the best examples, instead of looking down on the worst as though we're better than them?
Indeed. We are called Christians. We are called after our Master and we are expected to behave like our Master. Christ is our gold standard, and we are expected to 'be perfect, just as [our] Father in heaven is perfect'.
What do you mean by limited use? The Eucharist offering is infinite in its effect. Are you equating the time of the liturgy to limited use?
The altar is the throne of our Lord wher He sits and offers Himself to us.
Thanks
Yes, this is a beautiful way of explaining it, I think the best way to clarify is to add to this and say that He assumes His throne on the altar during the liturgy before He takes His equally rightful and everlasting seat as the Lord and King in the throne of our hearts when we partake of Him.
He does not personally unified Himself with the throne of the altar, but He will unify Himself eternally with us by sitting as Lord and Master in the throne of our hearts.
The earthy altars we consecrate the mysteries on will wear, erode and eventually come to the end of their useful life as will we but it is only granted to us the promise of His resurrection.
No we are not. We are not censors used in the liturgical worship. Only one censor is used in the liturgy that is dedicated for the liturgical worship. Please, make a distinction between meditation on the rites and the actual worship
Unfortunately, we have turned to symbolism and trying to explain and rationalize our rituals to the extent we lost the true meaning of the liturgical worship.
May I respond by asking a couple questions - why do you suppose that we have rituals? Is it just simply for the sake of doing them?
It is because of the unchecked behavior, that you cited, that a video like this had a life to being made.
To get to Resurrection, we must first get to His table; His altar. We would not have an eternal life unless we eat and drink from the Altar.
Again, there is a difference between spiritual meditation and ritual orders that have been put by the Lord Himself and passed to us through His apostles.
Thanks.
To get to Resurrection, we must first get to His table; His altar. We would not have an eternal life unless we eat and drink from the Altar.
Again, there is a difference between spiritual meditation and ritual orders that have been put by the Lord Himself and passed to us through His apostles.
Thanks.
But if we say that St Mary is the eastern gate and that it remains shut because the Prince ate bread there as it told to us in Ezekiel why is this controversial?
Clearly the analogies are exactly the same no?
Our mother the Virgin is holy before, during and after the time that she is the second heaven. There is nothing in my post to illustrate that I confined the time the altar was holy to when the Son is on it, you've just invented this interpretation. In the liturgy don't we say - the holies are for the holies? I think you need to take more care to read accurately so that you'd make an inadvertent accusation at a brother.
There is a very deep relationship between symbols, theology and rituals I don't think you can separate and split them like you're implying otherwise that would truly be Unorthodox. Our worship isn't just outward rituals, it is something God intended to be both outwardly and inwardly deep and engages every part of our mind, body and spirit; it is also arranged to show to us that something is really happening when we ascend to heaven to partake of the Eucharist, the altar being holy is a fundamental part in making this happen but it is not enough to say the altar alone is responsible for the integrity of our Eucharist.
If it were not for the teachings about our worship, the significance of the altar, Eucharist, incense and so on from the Bible we would know nothing about it, you cannot make this division which you are claiming because to quote Bishop Kallistos Orthopraxy must be united with Orthodoxy, the right practices with the right theology. If we split one from the other we are no longer the Orthodox Church, we mightn't be protestant but we'll become something else equally sinful.
The Presence of the second person of the Trinity in relation to the altar is very different to the Eucharist, firstly because the performance of the Mayroon is ascribed to the Holy Spirit not the Son and secondly the Mayroon is for the consecration of the altar where the Bread and Wine truly is the Body and Blood of our Lord. Of course in both instances the altar and our Lord are holy but we mean this in ways that merit distinction and so I was being distinct.
I confined the purpose of the altar and the incense censor to time and space, its based on the expressions that David uses in the psalms where it say the Lord is worshipped on His footstool (the earth) while scripture also teaches us that the earth will be burnt up with a fervent heat as their time comes to an end. The earth is indeed a very dignified place for the Lord to rest His Feet and His presence blesses it but it will nonetheless be destroyed when its time comes.
God bless,
LiD
Haha, I thought it was pretty funny. Good job guys. Anyone so offended by this is taking it way too seriously...and clearly they are blind to the fact that more ludicrous and offensive behavior occurs at our churches every Sunday by women/girls dressed inappropriately, people playing games and texting on their phones, and people joking around during mass. I have even seen one of my peers say "f***" during mass, eat a piece of chocolate, then go take communion because "his mom would be mad at him if he didn't".
Favorite parts:
"It's Holy Water.......min Rabena"
And "I know what you did last Pascha"....that's just gold lol.
I don't think we need to tell you what is wrong in your post. It's pretty obvious
[quote author=CopticChurchForever link=topic=6443.msg135429#msg135429 date=1302152024]
Haha, I thought it was pretty funny. Good job guys. Anyone so offended by this is taking it way too seriously...and clearly they are blind to the fact that more ludicrous and offensive behavior occurs at our churches every Sunday by women/girls dressed inappropriately, people playing games and texting on their phones, and people joking around during mass. I have even seen one of my peers say "f***" during mass, eat a piece of chocolate, then go take communion because "his mom would be mad at him if he didn't".
Favorite parts:
"It's Holy Water.......min Rabena"
And "I know what you did last Pascha"....that's just gold lol.
I don't think we need to tell you what is wrong in your post. It's pretty obvious
Please divulge.
The altar does not serve a limited use .. the service of the liturgy offers a sacrifice that is unlimited in its effectiveness.
Yes, the altar does deserve our perpetual devotion. Let us see what the Bible says about this:
Exodus 30:8 “Aaron shall burn incense on it, a perpetual incense before the Lord throughout your generations.”
If this was said of the OT worship where the sacrifice were animal ones, how much honorable is the worship of the NT where the offering is God Himself.
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations," Says the Lord of hosts
The phrase “from the rising of the sun, even to its going down” signifies our devotion an d utmost respect. The question is where else this incense could be offered except in the altar of the NT.
Let me ask you, where did you get the idea that the altar is a disposable instrument in God’s eyes for our sake? Is this your interpretation? If not from where did you get it? Did God reveal to you that He will destroy the altar in a heartbeat? We were made His living altars in baptism, yet He did not destroy the Church as you are suggesting. Did God tell you that?
So when we offer the Eucharist in the liturgy and God is present with His angels and saints; He is truly upset (according to you)
Then how come we say with David the King: “But as for me, I will come into Your house in the multitude of Your mercy; In fear of You I will worship toward Your holy temple.”. Are we approaching an angry God? You claim that the Lord’s primary service is our human worship.
First, what is this human worship you mention? Is it the liturgical one that requires the altar?
Second, the verse that you are alluding to is “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.” Romans 12:1
Where does it say “primary” and where does it say “human worship” as if we can worship apart from the liturgical services and the altar from which we receive His body and blood that gives us the strength to offer the reasonable service St Paul is mentioning; fighting our lusts and temptations.
St Paul here urges the Gentiles to look at the Jews and learn from their mistakes by leaving the bodily lusts and he is not diminishing the altar as you suggest
These words of yours are utterly Unorthodox and I will not tolerate it.
Do we subject the Eucharist to our own minds and determine the integrity of God?
Without altar there is no Church
With no Church, there is no Eucharist
The consecration of the altar is essential for the Eucharist which is essential for our salvation.
The holy Myroon is used for the altar so that it becomes the dwelling of God just the same way when we are confirmed and consecrated with it so we too can become the dwelling place of God.
That is why we ascribe all holiness to the altar and also ascribe all holiness to our bodies because both became the dwelling place of our Lord.
All of the liturgical prayers are aimed toward the three Persons of the Holy Trinity. Without the Holy Trinity there is no Eucharist. Without the Holy Trinity there is no consecration of our bodies.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO ALTARS (in terms of Holiness).
In Isaiah 19:19 the prophecy concerning the altar was the Christian altar for the Eucharist. "In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its border." This cannot be a symbol of us as the quote suggests. We cannot offer the Eucharist upon ourselves.
"For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations," Says the Lord of hosts." Malachi 1:11
Again this cannot refer to us but to the Christian altar, the only place the Eucharist can be offered.
Lifeindeath,
Is this your own meditation? If not please provide your resource.
In Isaiah 19:19 the prophecy concerning the altar was the Christian altar for the Eucharist. "In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its border." This cannot be a symbol of us as the quote suggests. We cannot offer the Eucharist upon ourselves.
"For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations," Says the Lord of hosts." Malachi 1:11
Again this cannot refer to us but to the Christian altar, the only place the Eucharist can be offered.
Lifeindeath,
Is this your own meditation? If not please provide your resource.
St Cyril in his work 'On worship in Spirit and truth' is paraphrased by Greek Orthodox Scholar Fr. George Dion. Dragas in the book 'St Cyril of Alexandria's Teaching on the Priesthood' who is a well known and respected scholar on the life and theology of St Cyril:
[quote=Fr Dragas]...the fire at the altar that is unceasing is the Holy Spirit that has come down and remains on Christ (who is the reality that the altar typifies), although he was always in Him by nature, since He is understood to be and always is God. That means that whoever believes in Christ and becomes Christ's is also a recipient of the Holy Spirit and becomes himself a divine altar... Priests cannot function properly unless they are mystical altars in themselves where Christ and the Spirit dwell unceasingly.
Hi Brother,
Please don't continue to misinterpret what I have written, I am not an attacker of the faith. I believe and love the teachings of the fathers and I seek to preserved the traditions of the Apostles.
I just came back from a Church camp this weekend where we took an ordinary table and the priest prepared it the night before and made it into a holy place where would conduct the mass the following morning. When we were finished we removed everything from the area. The table was from a common area and had been used for serving food and so, it will eventually be used in this away again now that we have left the camp site.
I performed service in Fiji where we would make do in very confined and ignoble places because the church there is so impoverished, in one place we pray the mass in a very small garage.
I am not trying to say anything against the sanctification of the altar or the Holiest place, if I have said anything errant may God forgive me, I was trying to state that these altars which we use are temporal because they are but symbols of the altar which is made without hands - Christ Himself.
Fr George Dragas on his summarisation of St Cyril's book on priesthood 'On worship in Spirit and Truth' says:
[quote=Fr George Dragas]St Cyril explains that the fire on the altar is unceasing, because "it is not external, but internal, to it"; "it is fire from above, from heaven." This "fire" is nothing else but the "Glory of God," which fills the altar. The figure of the fire, St Cyril explains , actually denotes "the divine nature," but there is a deeper more mystical meaning to all this. "the divine altar is in fact a type of Emmanuel Himself, through whom we have access to God the Father."
Hence our altar is a type for Christ Himself, this is extrapolated further by St Cyril in His own words: God bless,
LiD
The consecration of the altar is essential for the Eucharist which is essential for our salvation.
The holy Myroon is used for the altar so that it becomes the dwelling of God just the same way when we are confirmed and consecrated with it so we too can become the dwelling place of God.
That is why we ascribe all holiness to the altar and also ascribe all holiness to our bodies because both became the dwelling place of our Lord.
All of the liturgical prayers are aimed toward the three Persons of the Holy Trinity. Without the Holy Trinity there is no Eucharist. Without the Holy Trinity there is no consecration of our bodies.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO ALTARS (in terms of Holiness).
Hi Brother,
I concur with all you've said except for the last couple lines, I fear you have misunderstood what I have written.
The distinction I was making was not a statement about how we should separate the Trinity its about how God sanctifies the altar which is different to Christs Body and Blood. We use the expression of saint Cyril Mia Physis to describe the Incarnate nature of the Word and how this truly is His Body and Blood. It doesn't mean that God hasn't sanctified the altar, it means He hasn't formed a Personal or Hypostatic union with it using St Cyril's Christological term.
God bless,
LiD
Do we subject the Eucharist to our own minds and determine the integrity of God?
Without altar there is no Church
With no Church, there is no Eucharist
Hi Brother,
I used the expression 'fundamental' when describing the role of the altar with regard to the Eucharist and I mean that in the fullest sense of the word.
St Ignatius one of the earliest Bishops, appointed by St John the Apostle wrote this concerning the integrity of the Eucharist:
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1, 110 A.D.:
Let that Eucharist be held valid which is offered by the bishop or by the one to whom the bishop has committed this charge. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 7, 110 A.D.:
I desire the Bread of God, the heavenly Bread, the Bread of Life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; I wish the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadephians, 4:1, 110 A.D.:
Be ye careful therefore to observe one eucharist (for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup unto union in His blood; there is one altar, as there is one bishop, together with the presbytery and the deacons my fellow-servants), that whatsoever ye do, ye may do it after God.
God bless,
LiD
The altar does not serve a limited use .. the service of the liturgy offers a sacrifice that is unlimited in its effectiveness.
Yes, the altar does deserve our perpetual devotion. Let us see what the Bible says about this:
Exodus 30:8 “Aaron shall burn incense on it, a perpetual incense before the Lord throughout your generations.”
If this was said of the OT worship where the sacrifice were animal ones, how much honorable is the worship of the NT where the offering is God Himself.
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations," Says the Lord of hosts
The phrase “from the rising of the sun, even to its going down” signifies our devotion an d utmost respect. The question is where else this incense could be offered except in the altar of the NT.
Let me ask you, where did you get the idea that the altar is a disposable instrument in God’s eyes for our sake? Is this your interpretation? If not from where did you get it? Did God reveal to you that He will destroy the altar in a heartbeat? We were made His living altars in baptism, yet He did not destroy the Church as you are suggesting. Did God tell you that?
So when we offer the Eucharist in the liturgy and God is present with His angels and saints; He is truly upset (according to you)
Then how come we say with David the King: “But as for me, I will come into Your house in the multitude of Your mercy; In fear of You I will worship toward Your holy temple.”. Are we approaching an angry God? You claim that the Lord’s primary service is our human worship.
First, what is this human worship you mention? Is it the liturgical one that requires the altar?
Second, the verse that you are alluding to is “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.” Romans 12:1
Where does it say “primary” and where does it say “human worship” as if we can worship apart from the liturgical services and the altar from which we receive His body and blood that gives us the strength to offer the reasonable service St Paul is mentioning; fighting our lusts and temptations.
St Paul here urges the Gentiles to look at the Jews and learn from their mistakes by leaving the bodily lusts and he is not diminishing the altar as you suggest
These words of yours are utterly Unorthodox and I will not tolerate it.
Hi Brother,
This will be the last time that I plan to reply, I fear that this dialogue is not edifying anyone and I don't want to participate in a fruitless and hate filled discussion that both reflects bad on us as Christians and doesn't contribute anything to the faith.
The teachings of the fathers are clear - may they stand, I fear that my babbling adds nothing to them and I do not wish to err in word or deed.
Our altars made with human hands are but a type of the Heavenly altar made without hands. My intention was to separate the earthly altars and the heavenly altar as one is a type after the other.
St Cyril writes the following concerning the perpetual sacrifice:
[quote=Fr Dragas]Finally, St Cyril adds that the whole burnt offering has to burn on the altar night and day, because it signifies Christ's fragrance that never ends.
I said that God gets no pleasure from the altar in reference to the earthly one made of human hands because it has no will and cannot please Him. When I say cannot please I mean cannot do anything because it is an inanimate object. The thing that is pleasing to God is the One that it is a type of.
I feel now after consulting the fathers and my priest I am comfortable that I did not err theologically but the distinction while it can be made is not correct because the devotion we offer at our earthly altar is directed to the unmade altar. In this I have indeed erred.
Please consult this podcast for my references to the body and human worship:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_body
God bless you brother, please pray for me.
LiD
I commend you for submission to the teachings of the Church. I commend you for going back and consulting your spiritual fathers. I commend you coming back and sharing what you have learnt.
Indeed, the Christian worship is centered around the liturgical service in which we are united with the Lord. This service cannot be conducted without the altar which in God's mind has a central role in the OT worship as well as in the NT.
Our bodies can be altars not in the same sense as offering the Eucharist but in the sense that the body itself becomes a sacrifice. This is accomplished when we fast, serve, visit the poor and the sick, praise, joy in the Lord.
Please, consult the following article for the New Testament Sacrifices at:
http://stpaulatlanta.org/images/New_Testament_sacrifices.pdf
I agree that the altar that is consecrated with the holy Myroon, where the Eucharist is offered, is a type of Christ Himself for through it we obtain forgiveness. That is why all holiness befits the altar.
God sanctifies our offerings, the bread and wine and change them into His own flesh and blood. We are united with Him in the sense that our minds, our wills become under His command.
It is important to note that the only hypoststic union that took place between a body and the 2nd Person, of the Holy Trinity, was that of St Mary's in order that incarnation could take place. Our union with the Lord is by no means hypostatic but merely a dwelling. That is why St Paul called those who are baptized as an altar since we are anointed by the holy oil just like the altar is and became dedicated for His service just like the altar. So, in essence we are the symbols of the altar where the oblations are offered.
From God's compassion, He lets us become a symbol of His altar and become a sacrifice as He became an unending sacrifice for us. We were dedicated by the Myroon as His altar is and can offer sacrifices as the God uses the altar to offer Himself.
On a side note, when Abouna uses any table to offer the Eucharist, he uses a holy tablet "allo7 almokaddas" upon which is placed the chair containing the chalice. The holy table is anointed with the Holy Myroon and is used outside a church for the Eucharist offering as well as inside the church if the altar is not consecrated.
I hope these notes clarify the confusion and my apologies if you took my comments as harsh. I believe we need to be very clear when we speak about our precious faith especially on a forum like this where there are visitors from various backgrounds read our comments.
Thanks and God Bless