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General Funeral Prayers UPDATE!

BiboboyBiboboy
edited April 2011 in Hymns Discussion
Agape,

The update to Albair's Deacon's Service Book on the Rite and Hymns of the General Funeral Service is now up on copticheritage.org website.

For the update on the Rite and Hymns of the General Funeral, as per the Holy Synod's decision on May 2010, please see the following two pdf documents:

The Rite of the General Funeral (English): http://www.copticheritage.org/parameters/copticheritage/General_Funeral/General_Funeral_English.pdf

The Rite of the General Funeral (Arabic): http://www.copticheritage.org/parameters/copticheritage/General_Funeral/General_Funeral_Arabic.pdf

For future references, this update to the rite will be found in:
Rites Encyclopedia > 13 - Feast of Palm Sunday
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Comments

  • kyrollos faheemkyrollos faheem
    Are there any recordings reflecting this change, specifically Cantor Ibrahim Ayad? Thanks.

    And another thing, why was this change implemented? What was wrong with the old practice?
  • meanzmeanz
    Is the prophecy reading the only thing that has changed?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    "Are there any recordings reflecting this change, specifically Cantor Ibrahim Ayad? Thanks."
    there is nothing worth recording for.....ya3ny the changes are not as much hymnal changes (mainly) but rather rite changes with its effect on hymns. you have to consider that Ibarhim Ayad is a cantor and not a scholar.

    "And another thing, why was this change implemented? What was wrong with the old practice?"
    to put in the simplest word with out writing much......It is not fitting to pray a sorrowful rite while still being in a festive day rite. some people used to even cut communion short and begin the general funeral. that is not right. so if the right is to be after the palm sunday liturgy directly, it ought to be in the annual tune (the mid ground between festive and hazayni)

    "Is the prophecy reading the only thing that has changed?"
    well.....the whole rite, even in the original way before the change, had different versions in several books. the prophecy was one of the things that were not in all the books. and if it was, the order might be differrnt. for example, the proposed order by Albair put it in the beginning before the prayer starts.....in my church we don't do that; we have it before the Pauline as done in many books and also similar to other services.
    but despite all of that, the prophecy itself didn't change. actually it's a declaration to the fruit of this week, the Resurrection. It's like the Church Fathers are putting before us the goal before we get into the race.
  • kyrillos123
    If the rite is annual... how can the sad tune of pauline be said?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=11208.msg135472#msg135472 date=1302204348]
    If the rite is annual... how can the sad tune of pauline be said?

    nothing in any sad tunes. etheve ti-anastasis is not said instead, the normal annual into of the pauline is said.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    So what do the priests wear? Do they wear the purple bornoses or their regular black vestments?
  • kyrollos faheemkyrollos faheem
    How would you say the prophecy in Coptic in the annual tune?

    And now that someone has brought it up, do the deacons wear the black side of their batrasheels or the red side?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    "So what do the priests wear? Do they wear the purple bornoses or their regular black vestments?"

    it's a funeral.....no liturgical vestments for priests....bournoses are really weird...i don't think there is a specfic rite for them.

    How would you say the prophecy in Coptic in the annual tune?"
    i believe that that's another lost tune......but no one EVER says coptic prophecies in any annual tune. similar to the laqqan rite.

    And now that someone has brought it up, do the deacons wear the black side of their batrasheels or the red side?"
    nope. not hazaynee yet.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11208.msg135479#msg135479 date=1302206592]
    "So what do the priests wear? Do they wear the purple bornoses or their regular black vestments?"

    it's a funeral.....no liturgical vestments for priests....bournoses are really weird...i don't think there is a specfic rite for them.

    really? My priests usually wear just their purple bornoses (Good Friday Vestments)
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=11208.msg135480#msg135480 date=1302206682]
    really? My priests usually wear just their purple bornoses (Good Friday Vestments)

    oh....color wise. well yeah this service is again, not hazaini.......not in the new rite. so they shouldn't
  • imikhailimikhail
    I am aware of the recent changes that are taking place in the Funeral prayer after Palm Sunday.

    In my view it is a shame that we alter the rituals that we have received.

    In the SUS we still follow the correct rites.

    Thanks.
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    There do seem to be regular changes.

    What is the substance of this particular revision?

    Father Peter
  • imikhailimikhail
    The original rite was to pray the Funeral prayer around 4:00 pm and connected with the 9th and 11th hours of the pascha.

    So the feast of Palm Sunday ends around 2:00,  people are dismissed then come back for the Funeral prayer and the pascha.

    In recent days, the last 100 years or so, people wont come back for the funeral prayer so the Church would start it right after the communion of the Palm Sunday feast.

    Recent opinions suggested that it is not proper to sing the funeral tunes right after the joyous feast of Palm Sunday and changed the rite to annual and deleted the hymns that were supposed to be said along with the vestments that should be worn.

  • jydeaconjydeacon
    This problem is not very hard to fix. If the liturgy say ends at 1 or 2 and agape(in general) after. If you give them an hour to eat and come back after that(assuming the whole congregation stays) you can pray the general funeral  in the paschal rite. I think the issue is not necessarily the "time" of when the prayers start. I think the issue was that they were attaching it to the liturgy and starting prayers during communion. If the liturgy has completed entirely and they start after communion has been finished I see no issue to having the paschal rite being used since the liturgy is over. We aren't necessarily a church that must have exact timing for rites to be done. At least within the same day.
  • imikhailimikhail
    jdeacon,

    I agree with you 100%. However, the way I understand it is the change happened because the feast supposedly should last till at least 4:00 pm; at least that is what I read on www.copticheritage.org.

  • ophadeceophadece
    Jydeacon said it. We don't strictly follow timings in our church. We pray Baramoun liturgy in the morning, and some churches before midnight pray festive. We pray half annual half mournful and before midnight we pray festive. What's more is that according to teachings of Cantor Farag and Wagdy you pray annual in vespers of major Lordly feasts and straight after we pray matins in festive (or vespers and matins annual and festive liturgy)...
    Oujai
  • imikhailimikhail
    I agree ophadece and that is why I cannot comprehend or digest this new change.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Neither do I. I'm with you on this again.
    Oujai
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Well it kind of hurts some but also limit many others. the reason for that is there used to be some church who cut of communion and began the prayer.....that is not appropriate at all. and that's what brought the HH to take a stand and the Synod across the last couple of years to find a way to solve.

  • imikhailimikhail
    I believe the solution was to order the churches not to start the funeral till communion is over and preserve the original rite.

    Regarding the change being from the synod, does anyone has a copy of the text?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11208.msg135639#msg135639 date=1302286070]
    I believe the solution was to order the churches not to start the funeral till communion is over and preserve the original rite.

    Regarding the change being from the synod, does anyone has a copy of the text?

    i would actually want to see that to. but i donno where it is. ask Albair.
  • Christforlife7Christforlife7
    What our priest did last year I think worked very well. After liturgy ended completely, i.e. the curtain of the Altar being closed, he came out and gave a little talk. He explained to them the conflict about linking the General Funeral with the end of Liturgy so he clearly wanted them to see that the Rite of Liturgy had ended. He then went on to explain, it is preferable that we wait for the end of the day, but for the sake of all attending, we will have it now, but not as part of the liturgy since the altar has been closed since the previous service.

    I guess the essence is that the congregation understands that they are two separate prayers, both necessary but not in relation with one another. And so we prayed in the Mournful tune, but we'll see what happens this year after this new update.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    "I guess the essence is that the congregation understands that they are two separate prayers, both necessary but not in relation with one another. And so we prayed in the Mournful tune, but we'll see what happens this year after this new update."
    hmmm... i guess i understand the goal here but i don't agree.....the essence (the visible one we can all judge) is doing and not necessarily understand in this specific time. don't get me wrong, i do believe that understanding is very important to the point that it's a must.....but you i don't believe to make the lack of understanding (or the abundance of it) effect the action.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    So if an imaginary person named Bob died on Lazarus Saturday. Because of embalming and everything, the body is not ready until the night of Palm Sunday. Would he still not have a funeral even though he died before Holy Week? The same with Bob dying on Easter or Bright Saturday. If the body is made ready on Easter Monday, would he still have a funeral?
  • kyrollos faheemkyrollos faheem
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=11208.msg135659#msg135659 date=1302299002]
    So if an imaginary person named Bob died on Lazarus Saturday. Because of embalming and everything, the body is not ready until the night of Palm Sunday. Would he still not have a funeral even though he died before Holy Week? The same with Bob dying on Easter or Bright Saturday. If the body is made ready on Easter Monday, would he still have a funeral?


    I would say that in the first case, he would get a funeral service because the point of the General Funeral Service is that it would serve as a substitute for a funeral service if one were to depart DURING pascha week. In the second case; however, there would not be a funeral service because the individual departed DURING pascha week.

    In addition to this, I would say that it easy to lay down the rite of the church. However, you mush also consider that this is a very sensitive area because it would be difficult for a priest to say to the family of the departed one that were will not be a funeral service because the individual departed during pascha week. Although I would agree that this is the way that it should be done, I wouldn't think that the family would understand (it would be a psychological thing).
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    In today's time we have the technology to preserve the body for a few days...why not just do a burial after Easter?
    That is not to abolish the general Funeral prayer, it serves a spiritual goal as well...we basically attend our own funeral to die with Christ during this week, in order to be resurrected with Him again. I'm specifically talking about the sensitiveness of refusing to pray a funeral, since indeed this may be very difficult for relatives of the departed person. What are your thoughts?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=11208.msg135659#msg135659 date=1302299002]
    So if an imaginary person named Bob died on Lazarus Saturday. Because of embalming and everything, the body is not ready until the night of Palm Sunday. Would he still not have a funeral even though he died before Holy Week? The same with Bob dying on Easter or Bright Saturday. If the body is made ready on Easter Monday, would he still have a funeral?

    i think you can do a funeral on Lazarus Saturday. If someone died after the General Funeral, then he is just sprinkled by that water (that is kept for the whole week), goes in church for a pascha hour and than is buried....but NO RAISING of incense.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    But "Bob" died on Lazarus Saturday, if there was a funeral, it would have to be during Holy Week.  But how can you do a funeral prayer for one who died before the General Funeral?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=11208.msg135671#msg135671 date=1302307412]
    But "Bob" died on Lazarus Saturday, if there was a funeral, it would have to be during Holy Week.  But how can you do a funeral prayer for one who died before the General Funeral?

    you can't...the funeral prayer for him will be the general funeral. we had that like 4 yrs ago.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11208.msg135673#msg135673 date=1302308182]
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=11208.msg135671#msg135671 date=1302307412]
    But "Bob" died on Lazarus Saturday, if there was a funeral, it would have to be during Holy Week.  But how can you do a funeral prayer for one who died before the General Funeral?

    you can't...the funeral prayer for him will be the general funeral. we had that like 4 yrs ago.

    So the rule is that there cannot be a funeral during Holy week but not necessarily if you die during Holy Week you don't have a funeral?
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