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people in church!
I find myself very conflicted in services. When i walk into a service in the church I am of course happy to be in church but as time goes by I find myself annoyed, people are always talking and kids especially but parents do not correct the behavior of their kids for example there is a young boy a few years old who loves to run around church especially into the altar his parents said its ok as long as he takes off his shoes!!! I find this disturbing and others allow they're kids while in the church to group together to talk or go in and out during liturgies, there is another woman who is constantly coughing loudly during church while at the same time she never turns her phone off therefore letting it ring loudly in the middle of service and even acknowledged that she knows Abouna doesn't like peoples phone on but yet reentered the the liturgy and allowed her phone to stay on and ring again! Things get so bad that Abouna has paused the liturgy and has even told people during his sermon about his it affects his concentration in the prayers I only find myself at peace in a service at the monastery or days when there are hardly people I know I should not have these feelings but I do not know how to deal with this, advice please?
P.s. sorry for the rant sadly I could write more haha but I have been surpressing this for a while anyway God bless and keep me in your prayers for I am a weak sinner.
Thank you
P.s. sorry for the rant sadly I could write more haha but I have been surpressing this for a while anyway God bless and keep me in your prayers for I am a weak sinner.
Thank you
Comments
The problems you point out that are causing you to lose distraction during prayer is very common. I have struggled and still do struggle with it occasionally.
But you have to realize that none of those things are out of the ordinary. So a phone rings, a baby cries, a person coughs, another sneezes, the doors open, etc. It's no big deal! These are all petty things that should not distract you.
Do not shift your head, do not open your eyes, do not stop praying, and do not lose your peace.
Easier said than done of course. . .
I think the best remedy to this problem is praying at home - a lot. Pray more at home. If you notice, even when one prays in the comfort of their own room with no one around you can feel distracted and restless.
Once you can master prayer for a long amount of time (which is different for each person) at home, when you pray at church you will be able to pray in the same way.
Prayer is so powerful in giving us peace that the devil would love it to become the source of our anxiety.
Seek help from the One who taught us to pray and He will guide you.
I struggle with the same thing. This quote put things in perspective for me and encouraged me to overlook the distractions to destroy the devils plot.
“I consider no other labor as difficult as prayer. When we are ready to pray, our spiritual enemies interfere. They understand it is only by making it difficult for us to pray that they can harm us. Other things will meet with success if we keep at it, but laboring at prayer is a war that will continue until we die.” -- Abba Agathon
Please keep me in your prayers.
the more we can do this, the more our behaviour is a good example to others of how to pray. they may not seem to notice, but eventually it will make a difference.
the people making the noise (well, some of them, not someone coughing out of illness) are being influenced by our enemy to not pay attention in church and to not care if they distract others. it is a spiritual battle, and can be won with prayer and fasting, not with telling the person next to you to shut up.
and... once you got good at praying with a lot of noise around you, try the next step, which is sitting towards the back of the church, occasionally helping people with their small kids (you can take them to see the icons and explain what abouna is doing when they are restless) and at other times praying peacefully as a good example to those around you chatting or texting.
if you manage to do this, tell me so i can do it too! ;)
thanks again may God's grace abide in us always
This should surely include in modern times asking and then telling people to turn their phones off. And certainly no-one should enter or be allowed to enter the altar without permission and an absolute need to be there. I don't think that anyone below a Reader should be allowed in the altar at all, and again it should be part of the duties of proper deacons to prevent anyone just running around and in the altar. From the earliest age children should be taught that the altar is the Holy of Holies.
It should be the job of deacons (proper deacons not choristers) to keep order among the laity. If people want to bear grudges then that is an issue to be dealt with in their own spiritual life in confession. The Church should not just allow all manner of bad and harmful behaviours just in case someone is annoyed.
This should surely include in modern times asking and then telling people to turn their phones off. And certainly no-one should enter or be allowed to enter the altar without permission and an absolute need to be there. I don't think that anyone below a Reader should be allowed in the altar at all, and again it should be part of the duties of proper deacons to prevent anyone just running around and in the altar. From the earliest age children should be taught that the altar is the Holy of Holies.
My views exactly-but not realistic. There have been major issues in my own church in the past where deacons have told kids to stop running or yelled at them for talking and the result? Very angry parents complaining to the priest, who often sides with the parents, afraid of upsetting them. I really think this issue has gone beyond tolerance and should be addressed by higher church clergy-demanding the cooperation of both priests and the congregation.
PK
I agree that if necessary the local bishop should provide instruction for all the congregations in his care. My own bishop provides such instruction.
But we were finding that because the people love each other, and are so pleased to be with each other, the greetings and general conversation during the preparation of the Church for worship was tending to encroach onto the first words of prayer. I know that in conversation with other clergy this can be a problem in a small community where everyone knows each other very well.
In my own community we have resolved to ring a little bell some time before we begin to pray, and when the little bell is rung there is to be silence. This seems to work very well. I am not saying that it is possible to ring a bell and have all the children behave, or all the choristers, but there are times when something needs to be done and must be done.
The Church is not part of a service industry. We do not have customers who must be kept happy at all costs. Nor is the role of the priest an easy one. There have been times when my bishop has said 'You must deal with such and such', and I have not wanted to but have had to be obedient to my bishop and to my calling as a priest.
At the very least I would imagine that it must be possible to stop anyone entering the sanctuary who was not permitted to do so by the needs of the Liturgy. Certainly in a liturgy it seems to me that someone who is not explicitly serving the Liturgy should not be permitted to enter the iconostasis. So it might annoy some people, but it seems to me that a blanket instruction could be made (and I would imagine that it would be easy to ask the local bishop to make such a statement) saying that no-one was to enter the sanctuary and that even little children would be turned away because it is the Holy of Holies, and to fail to preserve the sanctity of the altar is to place those who dishonour it in danger.
In my own opinion, and I know that some priests do get undermined by some powerful and dominant laity, it must also be possible to insist that phones are turned off at the beginning of the Liturgy and that anyone whose phone rings must leave the liturgy and not commune. Once is an accident, twice is disrespectful, a continual interruption of the Liturgy should be a matter of discipline.
Father Peter
For example, several years ago our bishop issued several rules concerning altar service and deacons. Among them were:
1. No tunics with pictures of saints (crosses only)
2. Outlining the correct times when the candles should be held by those serving in the sanctuary
3. Number of people serving in sanctuary
4. Cut-off time to "dress" as a deacon
And there were several more. Needless to say, virtually none of them were followed.
The problem is enforcement. The priests nowadays are too concerned with appeasing the masses and not concerned with order and accuracy.
--Remember the problem that was brought up about the psalm 150 refrain being in the past tense (A-Penchois . . .)? Well I brought that up to my priest and he agreed that we should correct things but never did anything to change it because other deacons were resistant.
If abouna tells people that they are making too much noise in the church or that they need to come early to take communion he becomes a "mean" and "strict" abouna. And for most priests they don't want to be "that guy."
It is not reasonable to offer simplistic answers to any such problems which even bishops are wrestling with.
I do note that perhaps converts to Orthodoxy expect and appreciate the discipline of the Church, and of the spiritual fatherhood they are offered. Certainly this was and is my own personal experience, and I think that of many others in my own congregation. As long as the shepherding is not arbitrary then it is received by most converts in my direct experience as a blessing.
Usually when we are considering some correction or improvement in our spiritual and liturgical life together we will discuss it for a while so that we are all able to understand what is being proposed and why, and then a change is made that is achievable. These are normally in the range of things which could be improved, not things that are plainly wrong. In regard to ringing the little bell, I had a conversation with both my spiritual father and bishop and it was clear that it was the general view that there should be a time of silence before any prayers began. I then spoke with my own deacons, there was an immediate agreement that this would be a positive and helpful development. That being so I made an announcement to the congregation that a bell would be rung some time before the prayers began and that silence would be observed from them on. The little bell was rung and there was silence.
I think that this works in my community for a number of obvious reasons:
i. A large proportion of the folk are converts and are highly committed to experiencing Orthodoxy in obedience.
ii. The congregation and church building are small and therefore pressure to conform to acceptable behaviour is high.
iii. I am not employed by the congregation in any sense and so there is not a (false) relation of supplier/customer.
iv. There is not a social network of ethnicity which forces people to attend Church who don't want to. Although a large number of ethnicities are represented in those who worship with us from time to time, and very regularly, nevertheless if someone doesn't want to come to Church they don't have relatives insisting that they must. Everyone who is at the Liturgy has chosen to do so.
In terms of the ringing of the little bell, I think that this will continue to work without any further instruction or discipline for two other local reasons:
i. Most folk are aware that they want to be silent before the prayers begin and just needed a reminder. They were not and are not resistant to the practice.
ii. Because the period of silence will become a habitual practice it will enforce itself when visitors and others attend. If people become silent, and resist the invitation to enter into conversation, then this becomes the socially enforced behaviour, rather than a clerically enforced behaviour.
But what to do if there are those who absolutely object to modifying their behaviour? If this is the case then surely there is something disfunctional in such a Church family. I have been often reminded by other clergy of the words of His Holiness that a priest is responsible for the soul of each of those entrusted to his care. It seems to me that this often requires the use of discipline, otherwise the souls will not grow up, or will grow up in a corrupt manner and direction. It is not easy to be a priest. It is not possible to have many friends or to seek to be friends with everyone.
I wonder if one of the problems is that there are too many 'deacons' and so the ministry is devalued. The deacons are supposed to be those who keep order in the Church, but sometimes it seems that some 'deacons' are part of the problem. Certainly I rely on my own deacons to assist me in the ordering of my own Church family. But they must be respected as much as the priest. That seems to me to require that they are chosen very carefully and cautiously and that progression through the ranks of the diaconate is conducted according to obedient and faithful service. Those who are choristers should not be called deacons. Those who are subdeacons and deacons, and men of experience and a record of faithfulness, should be part of the leadership of the community. Then the priest is not left to stand alone.
How can anyone have respect for the ranks after that?!
Where there is no enforcement and discipline there is no obedience. If, when you rung the bell, the congregation continued talking and you let it "slide" they will not listen the next time.
If our priests stopped allowing kids to "dress" as acolytes if they come late they would stop coming late.
I know it is easy to blame the priests, and I fall in the trap repeatedly. However, I cannot help but feel they are the most responsible. I have no authority in deciding who enters the sanctuary, who gets to read, who can "dress," who takes communion, etc. . .
But I would add to that very real responsibility, that the laity, and especially those who take the diaconate seriously, must strive in all things to support their priest when he tries to exert spiritual discipline. If the deacons will not support the priest then it is very 'problematic' indeed.
And of course the older, spiritually mature laity should also support the priest when he exercises spiritual discipline. There can be people who are essentially bullys in many places. When some of the laity bullies the priest then it makes the priesthood a great burden, and it is already. I guess the priest needs to know that he has the more or less unconditional support of a faithful core of his flock.
The only time any of my own congregation has told me that they will leave if I introduce something is when I mentioned starting a band! :)
If someone will kick up a fuss (as I know that some do and will) simply because their child was not allowed to run into the Holy of Holies then they have not understood why they are in Church and have misunderstood entirely their relationship to the Church and the spiritual fatherhood of the priesthood.
That doesn't make it easier to say No to people. But perhaps if a priest knows that when he gives instructions that a particular discipline WILL be followed (especially if it is an episcopal discipline) that he has the support of people who are praying for him and entirely support him then he will have more courage.