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The Creed during Passion Week

kyrollos faheemkyrollos faheem
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Hello everyone,

I heard there was a new change that came from the Holy Synod concerning the Creed that you say it in full rather than just stop at "was incarnate..." and then continue with "Yes, we believe in the Holy Spirit..."

Cantor Ibrahim Ayad has the latter view.
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Comments

  • ophadeceophadece
    In Egypt the practice has always been akin to the olden days. I believe that's the right thing as well... don't believe in the change...
    Oujai
  • imikhailimikhail
    The Creed should be said in its entirety with no skipping. The Creed is not a hymn but a proclamation of faith and does not belong to the Coptic Church alone but is an ecumenical creed.

    In the liturgies of Holy Thursday and Apocalypse Saturday we do not skip the parts about resurrection and ascension. Even in Holy Thursday hymns we mention the resurrection during the matins prayer. Also, we mention the resurrection during Bright Saturday praises.

    In summary the Creed should be said in its entirety.

    Thanks and God Bless
  • mechaielmechaiel
    I agree with imikhail. This is what we have been doing in our church for the last ten years or so (since the Holy Synod made that decision).

    The Creed should be said in its entirety. It is a statement of our faith; and since our faith does not change with church occasions, then neither should the Creed. Other hymns, though, are modified to suit the occasion (eg Agios etc).
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    A footnote in our Bright Saturday book on the Creed:
    The entire Creed is said according to the declaration of the holy Synod “not to delete parts of Creed at any time of the year” at its meeting on June 2, 2001.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Creed or hymns are parts of our faith, and they convey messages of what we learnt one way or another. Those things are modified and not deleted or skipped. Otherwise let's bring back the litany of peace! Let's not change agios at all then word-wise.
    Oujai
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11283.msg136350#msg136350 date=1303249182]
    Creed or hymns are parts of our faith, and they convey messages of what we learnt one way or another. Those things are modified and not deleted or skipped. Otherwise let's bring back the litany of peace! Let's not change agios at all then word-wise.
    Oujai

    Well.......i think the Creed is a little different thoo. it is the absolute declaration of faith that cannot be changed or altered or even changed to fit an occasion. different from hymns and prayers in Church. Hymns and prayers serve a purpose in our faith.....but the Creed is the structure that holds that faith. Meaning that if you mess with the cornerstone, everything else built upon that crumbles. 
  • ophadeceophadece
    How is modifying the creed messing with it? The saying applies in everything we're doing right now: "7afzeen mesh fahmeen" (= knowing without understanding). It's an emphasis on an event. Nothing to imply importance or superiority. I see it as everything being in sync and great harmony when the creed concurs with ekhrestos anesty, and the fraction passing through the holy fifty days...
    Oujai
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11283.msg136353#msg136353 date=1303250034]
    How is modifying the creed messing with it? The saying applies in everything we're doing right now: "7afzeen mesh fahmeen" (= knowing without understanding). It's an emphasis on an event. Nothing to imply importance or superiority. I see it as everything being in sync and great harmony when the creed concurs with ekhrestos anesty, and the fraction passing through the holy fifty days...
    Oujai

    that saying can go for EVERYTHING we do in Church despite our convo here about the Creed.
    to put it in a simple understanding, i take Anba Rafael's answer to this problem: if an unbeliever comes to a church during holy week and hears us saying only part of the Creed....what would they say?!
  • ophadeceophadece
    They should understand that we're focussing on a specific occasion. You can apply the same argument to everything including agios if a non-believer hears it in specific occasions. Funny how the controversial things seem to only do with things that people come to church for. No one said anything on skipping the 6th hour prayer altogether on Pentecost Sunday. Nor skipping the tradition of reading the whole Bible during the Holy week. Nor modifying the words of the Bible when we don't read the CAtholic epistles in some church services, or the Pauline in others. What would a newcomer say then when they hear of the litany of peace and don't find it on holy Thursday...
    Oujai
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11283.msg136356#msg136356 date=1303251386]
    They should understand that we're focussing on a specific occasion. You can apply the same argument to everything including agios if a non-believer hears it in specific occasions. Funny how the controversial things seem to only do with things that people come to church for. No one said anything on skipping the 6th hour prayer altogether on Pentecost Sunday. Nor skipping the tradition of reading the whole Bible during the Holy week. Nor modifying the words of the Bible when we don't read the CAtholic epistles in some church services, or the Pauline in others. What would a newcomer say then when they hear of the litany of peace and don't find it on holy Thursday...
    Oujai

    nonononon......you are still mixing the important of the CREED by everything else we do. as i said, IT IS THE CORNERSTONE OF OUR FAITH. That is very important compared to everything else we do. culture differnces in rites is not as important as the Creed......here i bring the rites in our sister churches....we do differnt things in services and liturgies but the CREED is sold iron that can't be broken.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Very true but why did the Holy synod wake up all of a sudden after 1500 years to correct a wrong practice.
    Oujai
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11283.msg136358#msg136358 date=1303251896]
    Very true but why did the Holy synod wake up all of a sudden after 1500 years to correct a wrong practice.
    Oujai

    i didn't say it was wrong. It's a development to not get into wrong doing...for example some churches stop at "wa qamma min-al-amwat" during the holy fifties and not finish the creed. dah keda we should stop saying the other half of the Creed from Nativity.

    same reason that there are too much controversy about the General funeral....[what triggered that was] how churches began cutting communion shorter and shorter every year (cutting the celebration of Palm Sunday) that the Pope and bishops had enough of disrespect to the mystery.
  • aiernoviaiernovi
    I think one important reason for the change is if any visitor happened to hear our creed this way, they may think we deny the Resurrection!! Very confusing indeed!
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Technically speaking:  there would be no non-believers at the recitation of the Creed.  They would have been escorted out of the church prior to that point.

    Since this is not carried out.  It would be confusing, even fodder for a point of declaring us "heretics", that we do not abide by the full breadth of the Declaration of the Creed.
  • imikhailimikhail

    Very true but why did the Holy synod wake up all of a sudden after 1500 years to correct a wrong practice.

    Dear Ophadece,

    I am not challenging you but do you have any reference beside the current books that say we skip. I have researched in the manuscripts I have and found no mention of it. That does not mean that it is indeed an old practice. I would like to know any old ( > 300 yrs) reference.

    I am afraid that the skipping may indeed be a result of a personal opinion that got into our rituals (like other things) and it is being corrected.

    Thanks.
  • George_Mina_Awad
    My church skips the part about the ascension for the 40 days following Easter....so this is incorrect?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=11283.msg136371#msg136371 date=1303268295]
    My church skips the part about the ascension for the 40 days following Easter....so this is incorrect?

    as i said in reply #4:
    "A footnote in our Bright Saturday book on the Creed:
    The entire Creed is said according to the declaration of the holy Synod “not to delete parts of Creed at any time of the year” at its meeting on June 2, 2001."
  • ophadeceophadece
    DEar imikhail,
    I don't have any references, and I am not as well-learned or well-researched as many of the people here are, but I learn with observation. Sorry to say this but it seems to me that many practices are being scrapped because of controversies arising mainly in the diaspora. Before you all jump on me, that's only my assumption and it may be completely wrong.
    Oujai
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    I would not be happy as an Orthodox missing out any portion of the Holy Creed. It was written in its entirety for a reason, and at first was not used in the Liturgy at all but as the confession of faith of the one being baptised or the one returning to the Church from heresy. It is the guarantor of our Orthodoxy, it is not a seasonal and reducible text. 
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear FR. Peter,
    I don't think anybody would be happy that agbeya prayers are missed out on some occasions either. Nor would anyone be happy to miss out saints' intercessions, but that does happen. If however a non-believer happens to enter the church on that day, and thinks to themselves we are heretics, and never asks why, and leave the faith for good, then tough luck for everybody. I don't think the Church teaches us that agbeya prayers are reducible or superfluous either...
    Oujai
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11283.msg136392#msg136392 date=1303296440]
    Dear FR. Peter,
    I don't think anybody would be happy that agbeya prayers are missed out on some occasions either. Nor would anyone be happy to miss out saints' intercessions, but that does happen. If however a non-believer happens to enter the church on that day, and thinks to themselves we are heretics, and never asks why, and leave the faith for good, then tough luck for everybody. I don't think the Church teaches us that agbeya prayers are reducible or superfluous either...
    Oujai

    ya ostaz ophadece.....you are still comparing the Creed with other prayers we have in Church......that is not possible.
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    Agreed. The creed is different entirely to all other aspects of the rite. It is not reducible or variable.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Ok, for me all parts of the faith are equal. I give up anyway...
    Oujai
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    ophadece, I am not sure that you understand. The creed is not negotiable, nor subject to seasonal variation.

    It does not really matter what our own opinions are, including mine, but changing the Creed is a matter of schism. To change the creed is tantamount to changing the Faith.

    The creed belongs to the whole Church, not just the Copts. And so it remains always unchanged as a witness to the fulness of the Faith.

    I have indeed had serious people email me and ask whether or not the Copts believed in the Divinity of the Holy Spirit because they had attended a service in which the Creed had been cut short. It is not appropriate for the Creed to be modified at all. One of the controversies with the Roman Catholics is that they have unilaterally changed the Creed - even with good intent.

    Father Peter
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Not to mention that in a previous posting, some parishes take it a step further to cut at the points of the Ascension.  This is taken from the precedence of the previous Holy Pascha tradition.

    Precedence is also an issue to deal with because it is being used as a justification for a lot of unbridled conduct in the church.
  • ophadeceophadece
    I completely understand FR. Peter, and it is not really my opinion after all. It's what I have observed. Reciting part or the whole of the Creed doesn't mean we're creating heresies, neither are we hindering people, or even considering it negotiable and subject to a season. It is not variable nor reducible, but as every other thing in the Church SERVES the occasion. Just because it is common with all the other ecumenical churches don't make us lesser than them or betraying the faith by cutting it short for a short while...
    Oujai
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    The issue is that the Creed is not to be changed under any circumstances. To change the Creed is to change the Faith. No local Church has the authority to change the Creed unilaterally. This is one of the main reasons for the division with the Roman Catholics.

    It does cause scandal and confusion when Christians hear only part of the Creed in a liturgy on some occasion. I have had people email me with their concerns.
  • imikhailimikhail
    A hymn can vary, a prayer can vary but the declaration of faith cannot.

    The creed is not a prayer or a hymn, it is a proclamation of faith that was agreed on by all the Ecumenical Churches. Thus, the Copts do not have the right to change it.

    When we say the Creed in the beginning of the liturgy, we are basically saying that we believe what was read in the Gospel according to the Creed.

    Also, as I pointed, during both Holy Thursday and Bright Saturday, the priest still prays "He asrose from the dead, ..., and the congregation replied with the hymn "Amen Amen Amen ... Your holy resurrection and ascension into the heavens ....",

  • jydeaconjydeacon
    Ophadece, "The Obedient son receives all the blessings" "Ibn el ta3a ye 7il a3le el baraka"

    Actually Imikhail, on good Thursday it is suggested that the priest pray the part "He came to the slaughter.." from the Gregorian Liturgy instead of He rose from the dead. I agree with you all however, that the creed is not a prayer to be adjusted to the season but a proclamation of the faith as a whole at any time of the year just as the synod has decided in 2001.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Good points from all of you of course, but just sad for me to think a man-made declaration is not in anyway touchable, but palms, gospels, and whatever else can be touched... and FR. Peter, we're not changing the creed... We're NOT. Why did the people who sent you their concerns in emails didn't think of taking it up with the priests in such a church?
    Oujai
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