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Questions from an atheist
Hey everyone.
Just to start I would like to say that I'm an atheist, it's not like I've thought about my choice, growing up in Sweden, where my dad is an atheist and my mom is more like an agnostic (not sure of the english word), it was just natural for me to become atheist. Usually i dont really think at all about religion, but if someone would ask me what religion i belong to, i would say "I don't believe in that".
How I look on religion: I believe the groundings of it is noble, you give all the people a way to explain bad things that happen in their life, things they cant understand and so on. This is just great, but when you go out and say that if you don't believe in god, you will burn in hell, that is just outrageous. I mean let the people decide for them self. God cant control the free will, so I don't think he should try doing that either, the free will is the one thing that shouldnt be interfered with. And when the pope says that "Condoms are the reason to AIDS", then I actually get really mad. I haven't really heard lots of oppinions from people that believe and would like to hear what you have to say. I got to this site by searching for "There Probably Is No God. Now Stop Worrying And Enjoy Life" for comments on it. Found this site, and read some of the topics. Lots of people saying that atheists can't answer the simple question: "Why are we here?" I guess you're reffering to why we humans live and why we are here on earth? The thing is with atheism, we dont have a meaning here, we are here because of a serie of random happenings over billions of years. I can feel that this is sometimes hard to accept, that we actually dont have a purpose.
There are also some whom say that the word probably makes the sentence There Probably Is No God no meaning. I dont agree, I'll just link this
Video is about a person who is going to prove that atheism is true and accurate. He starts of with saying that he has a invincible, untouchable, dinosaur next to him. You can doubt it if you'd like be he says it's there. I can't be sure of that it isnt there, but i can say that it probably isnt there since, well, it's kinda ridicoulus really that it would be an invincible untouchable dinousar there.
I get that there are people who believe in god and i dont have anything against it. But when some people strictly belive in their religous texts, like that moses split the red sea, that the earth is 4000-6000 years old, that moses became around 300 years old and so on, it makes me a bit dissapointed. Scientist have worked step by step to create a picture of the world, with proof only of what's in the world. And then to simply deny all their work because what's written in a book by other people, people that had no proof for their thoughts. They only had to say that they we're driven by their god.
This is my opinion, I would just like to get answer and want you to tell me where you think I'm wrong. A calm intelictuall discussion :) I'm 17 years old, and just want other opinions than those that I've been jammed into through my entire life
If you are to comment please refer to me as "Ceder" more used to it :P
Just to start I would like to say that I'm an atheist, it's not like I've thought about my choice, growing up in Sweden, where my dad is an atheist and my mom is more like an agnostic (not sure of the english word), it was just natural for me to become atheist. Usually i dont really think at all about religion, but if someone would ask me what religion i belong to, i would say "I don't believe in that".
How I look on religion: I believe the groundings of it is noble, you give all the people a way to explain bad things that happen in their life, things they cant understand and so on. This is just great, but when you go out and say that if you don't believe in god, you will burn in hell, that is just outrageous. I mean let the people decide for them self. God cant control the free will, so I don't think he should try doing that either, the free will is the one thing that shouldnt be interfered with. And when the pope says that "Condoms are the reason to AIDS", then I actually get really mad. I haven't really heard lots of oppinions from people that believe and would like to hear what you have to say. I got to this site by searching for "There Probably Is No God. Now Stop Worrying And Enjoy Life" for comments on it. Found this site, and read some of the topics. Lots of people saying that atheists can't answer the simple question: "Why are we here?" I guess you're reffering to why we humans live and why we are here on earth? The thing is with atheism, we dont have a meaning here, we are here because of a serie of random happenings over billions of years. I can feel that this is sometimes hard to accept, that we actually dont have a purpose.
There are also some whom say that the word probably makes the sentence There Probably Is No God no meaning. I dont agree, I'll just link this
Video is about a person who is going to prove that atheism is true and accurate. He starts of with saying that he has a invincible, untouchable, dinosaur next to him. You can doubt it if you'd like be he says it's there. I can't be sure of that it isnt there, but i can say that it probably isnt there since, well, it's kinda ridicoulus really that it would be an invincible untouchable dinousar there.
I get that there are people who believe in god and i dont have anything against it. But when some people strictly belive in their religous texts, like that moses split the red sea, that the earth is 4000-6000 years old, that moses became around 300 years old and so on, it makes me a bit dissapointed. Scientist have worked step by step to create a picture of the world, with proof only of what's in the world. And then to simply deny all their work because what's written in a book by other people, people that had no proof for their thoughts. They only had to say that they we're driven by their god.
This is my opinion, I would just like to get answer and want you to tell me where you think I'm wrong. A calm intelictuall discussion :) I'm 17 years old, and just want other opinions than those that I've been jammed into through my entire life
If you are to comment please refer to me as "Ceder" more used to it :P
Comments
On topic: Most of the things that get you "mad" about the "pope", well, that's the catholic pope. They have been corrupt since the beginning and it's not going to change. I can see why it gets you mad because it gets me mad. We are the Coptic Orthodox Church that originated in Egypt. It was started by St. Mark the apostle of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
About your look on religion:
I know sometimes you feel like no one is able to control you, you are a free person and you can do whatever you want. Whether you are Christian or not this fact is still true. We can do whatever we want, but not all things are profitable, and that is why we try to avoid these unprofitable things which lead to sin. I am not sure if you know what sin is, but sin is basically separation from God (caused by cursing, adultery, murdering, having bad thoughts, jealousy and etc...).
You refer to scientists actually having proof of the earth being 400 billion years old and that we came from monkeys and all this bologna. In reality there had to be a creator. There are just too many things that had to occur for life to exist and the possibility of it happening from a series of random events is theoretically very close to zero, meaning impossible. If you want to believe that the earth was creating from a huge "bang" or explosion then that's you, but the Coptic Orthodox Church believes that there was a divine Being that had created the universe and all that is in it. Basically, scientists are studying the handiwork of our Almighty God.
Right about now or in the next 3 hours there will be people who are a lot wiser and more knowledgable then me will reply to this thread. I hope this post has atleast opened your mind to the possibility that we didn't come here because of many random events.
Prayer:
In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, one God. Amen.
May God bless you and keep you, and may He open your heart so that you can feel His love and see His wisdom in the earth.
Amen.
Hello Ceder,
Welcome to the forums. If you are genuine about this, may I suggest some books for you to read. I see you're in Sweden, and so I suspect, though am not 100% that some of the writings of the Church Fathers have been translated into Swedish. That may be a little steep for you in the beginning, so what I would suggest is you find a copy of C.S. Lewis' book, 'Mere Christianity'. I'm sure that has been translated into Swedish. You may find that book particularly interesting. I would also recommend 'The Orthodox Way' by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. Your exposure to Christianity, I suspect, is rather limited, so these books would probably a good start for you, particularly the latter with regards to the Orthodox Church.
I was not refering to you're religion with the pope thing, the thing that makes me mad is when a leader of a religion makes a stand where it affects a lot of people very bad and since they believe in him they follow him. I haven't found anything that is bad about you're religion :)
The thing about sins are, when we grew up, we get a certain morale, depending on how we are treated and so on, so we needed the a guideline in the beginning but now. Everyone has their morale and then it passes on from generation to generation. I don't believe that bad thoughts and jealousy really are a sin. Since these are caused by our so called reptile brain, that we dont have any control of (not entirely sure of this but i think it was so). And since we are a model of god, doesnt that make him able to have bad thoughts and jealousy too?
The basics of the evolution theory is that, a mutation occurs, things that happen all around us. People get certain functions their parents dont have and so on. If it is a bad mutation for the specie it makes him percentaly produce less children. If it is a good mutation it'll produce more children and then that specie will take over since there are just getting more of them and less of the other. Set this over a couple of thousand years and you'll have an entire new race. This isnt any powers at work just simple random events.
The scientist are as you are saying studying this world, if god created it wouldnt he want people to believe that he is here so that people will follow him more and act more as he'd like we would? It is proven that there have been dinosaures until around 65 million years ago. They've for example used the coal-14 method to prove it, seen it in work myself. And how they know the universe was created that long time ago is that the galaxies shine a white light, but when you look at them they are shining red, this is because of the doppler effect, which has been proven. And then they've calculated how long time ago it was since all the galaxies where at the same spot. So i guess my question is, why would god create a world where there are proof that he didnt create it?
Maybe I'm just believing too stupidly in science, but I've seen the test they've perfomed and performed many of them myself, and it leads me to the same conclussion.
Thanks for your reply, learned from it, but since atheism is basicilly all i know, it will probably take some time for me to see it your way.
@Kn
Cant type your entire name, thanks for the book tips, think I'll read them during the summer, way too much school at the moment. And yes they are very limited, I was baptised in a church and i've been at my cousin's wedding but that's basicilly it. Though I would prefer to have a discussion in front of reading a book. But I'll definitly read them
Hello Ceder,
My name is tricky as it is written using Greek text. Feel free to call me Cephas if you like.
I totally understand how busy things can be with school. I would strongly suggest that before you engage in any sort of online discussion about Christianity, you read up on it yourself. You will find all sorts of varying opinions online, which makes it difficult to pinpoint what is right and what is wrong. Please don't think I'm trying to discourage you. I'm really not. But you know how online forums can be. Everyone is an expert. :D
When you do have time, do read the books I suggested. They will definitely help you get an idea of the framework behind how a Christian 'thinks', if you will. The atheist mindset is completely different from that of the Christian's, as you will find. Atheists focus only on the material world and what they can detect with their 5 senses and use science to explain everything. While there is nothing inherently wrong with science, it is important to realize its limitations. Science can only attempt to explain the material world. God, however, is beyond the material world. As such, science can neither prove, nor disprove Him. In order to begin to think about God, you will have to look beyond yourself, and beyond this material world.
A quote that I love from St. Antony the Great (the first monk who lived c. 300 AD) said, 'Whoever knows himself, knows God.' To know God, you must first get to know yourself. You will find that God is not 'out there somewhere', but rather, inside you. Search inwards and speak with a priest at an Orthodox Church for guidance. That is honestly the best advice I can give you. The best way to know God is not academically, but personally, the way you would a long lost friend. If you were to reconnect with a friend you haven't seen in a long time, you don't read about them in books, but you re-establish the relationship by contacting them and speaking with them directly. The way Christians reconnect and speak with God is through prayer and meditation. Again, a priest will best be able to help you in this regard.
Again, please don't think I'm trying to discourage your endeavours online on these forums. But just keep in mind that not everyone here is as knowledgeable as you may like. Feel free to ask your questions, but please keep an open mind and have a thick skin. You will find that some may be rather aggressive. Complement what you learn hear with your own readings and research. And, honestly, I can't stress this enough. Find an Orthodox Church in Sweden and speak with the priest. They will be invaluable to you.
Good luck!
:) I see your point with the forums, one of the reason i choose your forum. Seemed serious and not like many other forums where there are mostly spam
Thanks again for the tips
I commend you for searching for the truth. I commend you for going out of your way to find out if there is a God. But as Cephas already said, you need not look so far, but look within. "For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:21)
But for your search you will be rewarded:“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." (Matthew 7:7-8)
I am sure it is difficult to be raised in an atheist home and even considering that Christianity is the True faith and that there is a God is a major step.
I hope that by offering the measly two fishes and five loaves (Mark 6:35-44) I have the Lord will bless them and work in you.
To begin with I will be blunt: Atheism is nothing more than fundamentalism disguised in lab coats and silly rhetoric.
Where many people stumble from entering the faith (unfortunately) is by looking at those who claim to be a part of it. In everything there are those who PRACTICE what they preach and there are those who just preach. Find those who do both, but do not shy away from the faith because you have had some bad encounters.
Secondly, God has given us the free will. This is exactly why some will go to heaven and others will not. I am not going to 'sugar-coat' anything for you. If I invite you to my house for dinner, but tell you that you must dress properly to enter, the choice is up to you. So your free will remains.
Now I will focus on the VERY BAD argument that ALL atheists make, including the guy in the video you posted.
Let's break down this guy's argument ---
1. I own an invisible T-Rex that cannot be touched.
2. Since you cannot prove it doesn't exist it does
3. Then basically he makes the erroneous leap to say that thus Christians who claim there is a God we cannot see are doing the same thing.
Let's take closer look.
He equates his imaginary T-Rex with the Christian's claiming there is a God. But the two are completely different. WHY? Because a T-Rex is
limited/Finite whereas God is unlimited/infinite.
A person can imagine things that are finite but they cannot imagine and invent things that are unlimited. Try to think of something so creative in your mind. Something no one has ever seen. What will it be? Suppose it is a orange alien with 7 square eyes and 1 leg and 8 arms. As you can see, this is imaginary alien came from something you encountered in the world. You have encountered substance, you have encountered color, you have encountered arms, legs, eyes, etc. Anything you imagine you will have to have come into contact with. Whether it be a color, shape, etc.
The same with the T-Rex. You can only imagine something that your limited and definite. Something you may have encountered.
Now I ask you: Where have you ever encountered infinity? What about perfection? How would you know what it means to be finite or imperfect is? We do not see infinite things in the world or perfect things.
Infinitude and perfection are the qualities of God alone. Thus, it must have been God who placed knowledge of Him in our minds.
So, the invisible T-Rex is just an imagination. But God is not. Simply because it is impossible to come up with the idea of God if He did not exist. I cannot come up with something I have never encountered. I have never encountered perfection or infinity. So it was God who placed knowledge of Him inside us so that we may get to know Him, just as you are trying to do now.
That was long, but it was very important.
All of that said, I urge you to read the gospels for yourself. We can provide counter-arguments to every Atheist claim and I guarantee we can prove all of them wrong. But will that change your heart? I do not know. From experience I have seen very few conversions happen intellectually. We all have stubborn minds. But God works miracles through those who are willing to learn and change.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled. (Matthew 5:6)
If you are hungry for truth, you will be filled.
May I learn to be more proactive like you and ask questions in humility, I wish I was this curious at the age of 17!
If you need any guidance please continue to post on this forum. There are many blessed posters who can help you.
God Bless.
@geomike
I was not refering to you're religion with the pope thing, the thing that makes me mad is when a leader of a religion makes a stand where it affects a lot of people very bad and since they believe in him they follow him. I haven't found anything that is bad about you're religion :)
The thing about sins are, when we grew up, we get a certain morale, depending on how we are treated and so on, so we needed the a guideline in the beginning but now. Everyone has their morale and then it passes on from generation to generation. I don't believe that bad thoughts and jealousy really are a sin. Since these are caused by our so called reptile brain, that we dont have any control of (not entirely sure of this but i think it was so). And since we are a model of god, doesnt that make him able to have bad thoughts and jealousy too?
The basics of the evolution theory is that, a mutation occurs, things that happen all around us. People get certain functions their parents dont have and so on. If it is a bad mutation for the specie it makes him percentaly produce less children. If it is a good mutation it'll produce more children and then that specie will take over since there are just getting more of them and less of the other. Set this over a couple of thousand years and you'll have an entire new race. This isnt any powers at work just simple random events.
The scientist are as you are saying studying this world, if god created it wouldnt he want people to believe that he is here so that people will follow him more and act more as he'd like we would? It is proven that there have been dinosaures until around 65 million years ago. They've for example used the coal-14 method to prove it, seen it in work myself. And how they know the universe was created that long time ago is that the galaxies shine a white light, but when you look at them they are shining red, this is because of the doppler effect, which has been proven. And then they've calculated how long time ago it was since all the galaxies where at the same spot. So i guess my question is, why would god create a world where there are proof that he didnt create it?
Maybe I'm just believing too stupidly in science, but I've seen the test they've perfomed and performed many of them myself, and it leads me to the same conclussion.
Thanks for your reply, learned from it, but since atheism is basicilly all i know, it will probably take some time for me to see it your way.
@Kn
Cant type your entire name, thanks for the book tips, think I'll read them during the summer, way too much school at the moment. And yes they are very limited, I was baptised in a church and i've been at my cousin's wedding but that's basicilly it. Though I would prefer to have a discussion in front of reading a book. But I'll definitly read them
Don't worry zolo2006, i wasn't offended by your remarks about the pope, i know you weren't referring to our church.
About you saying "atheism is all i know so it will take some time for me to see it your way". This is true, and you are very wise for realizing it. But don't worry, our Lord Jesus Christ will not leave you in the dark, He rewards those who search for the truth. You should get a copy of the Holy Bible, and begin reading it. You will begin to see things in a different way and you will learn from it. I would recommend starting with the Gospels which are the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They have good moral lessons. What you could do to see how Christianity is, is to try your best at following whatever you learn from these books for a whole week. You will see a huge change in your life. God has blessed you with wisdom. You are an atheist, but yet you are searching for the truth. I really respect that, and I will continue to pray for you. If you need anything just pm me.
God with you and may He reveal to you the Truth.
I admire your open mind, which you've shown just by posting here in the first place. I highly recommend the "Case for" series by Lee Strobel (The Case for Faith, The Case for Christ, The Case for a Creator). I think they do a pretty good job of addressing all the points that keep people from believing in Christianity, or in God in general. Lee Strobel is a former atheist. He tries to show that both a.) science and religion are fully compatible with each other and b.) not everything that we know as science today is as concrete as it is made out to be.
One verse that I like to point to which you may have already seen before: "The hangs the earth on nothing." - Job 26:7 (approximately 1500 B.C.)
So be very careful not to automatically dismiss one or the other. Good luck in your search.
Hello again Ceder,
I wanted to briefly address this portion of your first post:
[quote author=zolo2006 link=topic=11396.msg137583#msg137583 date=1304810301]
There are also some whom say that the word probably makes the sentence There Probably Is No God no meaning. I dont agree, I'll just link this
Video is about a person who is going to prove that atheism is true and accurate. He starts of with saying that he has a invincible, untouchable, dinosaur next to him. You can doubt it if you'd like be he says it's there. I can't be sure of that it isnt there, but i can say that it probably isnt there since, well, it's kinda ridicoulus really that it would be an invincible untouchable dinousar there.
The problem with this is that the person presenting this argument is forgetting one important aspect of Christianity; an aspect that is not found in other world religions. God is not just some invisible guy in the sky. The core of Christianity revolves around the Person of Christ. Christ is a real person, the Incarnate Word of God, with flesh and blood, who walked this Earth, taught, had disciples, was arrested, was condemned, was beaten, was crucified and, most importantly, resurrected from the dead. After His resurrection, He remained on Earth for another 40 days teaching His disciples the central dogma and doctrine of the Church before ascending to Heaven. So the God of Christianity is not some abstract concept, or some distant, indifferent sky being. He became Man and lived among us. He is someone we can have a real personal relationship with. That is the vital difference between Christianity and any other religion.
As a result of Christ's Incarnation, crucifixion and Resurrection, He remains present with us here on Earth while being simultaneously at 'the right hand of the Power of God'. We see Him present every time the Divine Liturgy is celebrated in the visible elements of bread and wine which become His Holy and True Body and Precious Blood. So, our God is not some invisible, impersonal, indifferent being in the sky. He is a real Person who is physically present in His Church and who longs to have a real personal relationship with His creation.
The whole methodology of the atheist (in that video, and I would suspect more generally, with regard to those who see it as a mission to save the world from God) is completely wrong and backwards. The atheist makes the point that it is not possible to disprove a negative ("you can't say there isn't such and such, so believing in 'God' makes about as much sense as believing in ____!"), which is true enough, but it ignores the reality of the situation:
Believers generally do not rely on this argument to assert their faith. More often than not, it's atheists who use it to assert their (lack of) belief. This is the straw man of religious thought that they have set up. Sadly, a Christian may respond to the atheist's argument in similar terms (if the Christian hasn't thought things through enough to understand why this is a bad idea), but I think you'd be extremely hard-pressed to find any Christian who was won over by these "there's probably a God because you can't prove that there isn't one" abuses of logic.
This would be like me "proving" to you that you should stop smoking because it will kill you. I might be right (after all, I can't see the future, just like you can't "see" God in a way that would satisfy an atheist), but it's unlikely to have much of an effect because it doesn't address the smoker's reason for smoking to begin with. No one starts smoking because they don't believe that it can kill them and need to prove some sort of point to the contrary of the popular opinion (anyone who starts smoking in this day and age probably knows the risks). Likewise, no one comes to believe in Christ to prove anything about the empirical existence of God in the face of pseudo-scientific, pseudo-intellectual skepticism. That kind of reasoning in apologetics -- neo-scholasticism or whatever you'd call it -- is actually pretty new, being itself a response to particularly aggressive forms of atheism that are obviously not mainstream, historically-speaking.
Please, by all means, believe as you wish, but don't think you're being clever about it, as though religious people are all such morons that we must believe in anything that can be argued from similarly illogical grounds as the worst of You Tube apologists. A + B = C only with the correct values on each side of the equation... ;)
To understand more about this subject it is important to ask these big questions:
- Does God exist?
- Is science without error?
- What are humans?
- What is right and what is evil? and why?
- What is the purpose of our life?
As a start, these may help a bit in your search for answers:
(follow each one in the list; best to watch them in their correct sequence)
http://www.youtube.com/user/IllustraMedia#g/c/9F238BF1EB056938
http://www.answersingenesis.org/media#/video/ondemand/millions-of-years-mortenson
http://www.answersingenesis.org/media#/video/ondemand/beginning-was-information
http://www.youtube.com/user/IllustraMedia#g/c/C805D4953D9DEC66
http://www.answersingenesis.org/media#/video/ondemand/planet-of-apes
http://www.youtube.com/user/IllustraMedia#g/c/61BE8DBE544FE20C
If you like these there are many more I can post. You can ask any question, I hope we can answer all of them. Along with that you could read good books as mentioned above. Wishing you a blessed and interesting search to find the Truth. Smirser, I would like to know its title too. TIA
GBU
To understand more about this subject it is important to ask these big questions:
- Does God exist?
- Is science without error?
- What are humans?
- What is right and what is evil? and why?
- What is the purpose of our life?
As a start, these may help a bit in your search for answers:
(follow each one in the list; best to watch them in their correct sequence)
h**p://www.youtube.com/user/IllustraMedia#g/c/9F238BF1EB056938
h**p://www.answersingenesis.org/media#/video/ondemand/millions-of-years-mortenson
h**p://www.answersingenesis.org/media#/video/ondemand/beginning-was-information
h**p://www.youtube.com/user/IllustraMedia#g/c/C805D4953D9DEC66
h**p://www.answersingenesis.org/media#/video/ondemand/planet-of-apes
h**p://www.youtube.com/user/IllustraMedia#g/c/61BE8DBE544FE20C
[h**p=http]
If you like these there are many more I can post. You can ask any question, I hope we can answer all of them. Along with that you could read good books as mentioned above. Wishing you a blessed and interesting search to find the Truth. Smirser, I would like to know its title too. TIA
GBU
PS: was «Flagged as spam» ? thanx (& sorry for double posting)
Lots of people saying that atheists can't answer the simple question: "Why are we here?" I guess you're reffering to why we humans live and why we are here on earth? The thing is with atheism, we dont have a meaning here, we are here because of a serie of random happenings over billions of years. I can feel that this is sometimes hard to accept, that we actually dont have a purpose.
Ceder, there is a flaw in this argument. The second law of thermodynamics says the universe maintains a state of chaos. Natural processes in the universe have a prefered direction of progress. It describes the entropy of the universe. Entropy is an expression of disorder or randomness. So you are correct that the universe is made up of random events. However, if left alone, the universe theoretically will progress into disorder and chaos. A universe with pure chaos is self destructing and will cease to exist. Also, in order for entropy to exist, there must be a differential between ordered states for the universe to prefer a direction. So even randomness requires order and structure. Since the universe prefers randomness, where does the required order and structure come from if there is no God?
Up to a few hundred years ago, no one can prove air existed. No one could define it. No believed microbes (germs) existed in the 19th century. Just because you can't see it or be sure it is there, doesn't necessarily prove it doesn't exist. What it does question is the competence and ability of the observer. This video hypothesizes invisible, untouchable dinosaurs can't exist because we can't see them. On the flip side of the coin, this theory can't prove that invinsible dinosaurs do exist and humans can't see them. And one can't argue probability of an invisible, untouchable dinasour because you can't prove it doesn't exist either. There is as much probability that an invinsible, untouchable dinosaur exists compared to the probability that an invisible, untouchable dinosaur doesn't exist. Probabilty can not prove existence. It only confirms potentiality. Are you saying that miraculous events on earth are disappointing? Would you rather be happy in a non-miraculuous universe of destruction with nothing to look forward to? The latter seems more disappointing. Actually, science postulates and hypothesizes. Very rarely, does Science itself claim a law. So all the step by step evidence only leads to a hypothesis, not irrevocible proof. Science does not have sufficient proof. It attempts to describe how the universe came about. In fact, scientists who have postulated that intelligent design (an intelligent power outside the universe) may be responsible for the existence of the universe, the scientific community ostracizes the scientists who make these assertions. We must look for more evidence and we can find it in religion. Religion describes who created the universe. It (at least Christianity), rarely attempts to describe how. I hope that was calm and intellectual.
Even though I don't agree with some arguments, I see what you mean. Will needs some time to melt it down and figur out what I fel about it. 3 weeks to summer :D so a lot of school now. Then I can sit down and read all the books you have tiped me on, thanks to everyone.
To understand more about this subject it is important to ask these big questions:
- Does God exist?
- Is science without error?
- What are humans?
and,
- What is right and what is evil? and why?
- What is the purpose of our life?
As a start, these may help a bit in your search for answers:
(follow each one in the list; best to watch them in their correct sequence)
Links are written in this file
http://www.mediafire.com/?1icyodk8v8oactk
If you like these there are many more I can post. You can ask any question, I hope we can answer all of them. Along with that you could read good books as mentioned above. Wishing you a blessed and interesting search to find the Truth (after school). Smirser, I would like to know its title too. TIA
GBU
PS: why was my post «Flagged as spam» ? thanks
I was flagged a few weeks ago. It was because I just copied and pasted url address. Use the url command instead of copy and paste. It can also happen when you use the quote command a lot. I don't know why. I would just change the color for now and use the commands and things should eventually return to normal.
George
Hello Zola2006,
I don't have anything to prove to atheists because their truth and mine are different. But I pray, one day they will see that they do have an eternal life.
I would also like to take this opportunity to apoligize to Smirser for my arrogance and cynicism with his thread. For one, arrogance is not humble, so I wasn't listening to how he felt about his topic. And cynicism, for it's doubt, which is many a mile away from the hope that GOD has given me.
I'm bad in PC and in englsh,that's why for me difficult to explain.You know the perfect book of H.H. Pope Shenouda with answers about Orthodox faith.And as a result i want to add;the main aim of everyone on the earth is to know the God ,know everything what he gave to humang being to know about Him/i don't remember who told this/.
.And the Internet helps too much.But to know real situation in the church it is imposible.
By the vay ''besmirsering'' it's very good neologism.Who said this has a very good sense of language.
God bless You.
We ask for your prais.
Vera,Alexander.
I can believe that there is something greater out there. But I can't believe in the Christian Church and other churches, since there are so much that is wrong with their morales and thoughts on how the world should look
Just a thought i had: If the bible is the word of god and the bible is the thing you base your morale views on, does that mean you think that all the things in the bible is right? I'd like to give examples, but i think you know what im talking about
And the Divine Plan of god what is it?
Even though I'm not going to believe in god, I still want to understand the belief better, thank you for any answers.
So I have given it all some thought, a lot actually, and I realised, I don't want to be religous.
Whether or not you want to be religious or whether you want to believe in a god doesn't mean God doesn't exist. You seem to be mixing up the psychological effects of faith vs. the existence of God to begin with. It doesn't make sense to prove a cause (ie, God does or doesn't exist) based on the negative interpretation of the effect. Compare it to gravity. One can say, I don't want to be effected by gravity. I want to jump off a roof and not fall to the ground. Personal preference or personal interpretation does not negate the existence of God or the validity of the Scriptures. If you assume greater knowledge than what is said in the Bible, then why do you care what the Bible says? The Bible has meaning because it is the revelation of God's hidden secrets. Christians believe the Bible gives us knowledge. If you already have greater knowledge, why read the Bible? If we begin with the assumption that the material is wrong, then we can't find the value in the Bible as Christians see and value. If you try to prove God doesn't exist because the Bible makes doesn't make sense, then you're only fooling yourself. The Bible is based on the assumption of complete faith in the existence of God. It can't be used to prove God doesn't exist. This statement only makes sense if you believe homosexuality is normal and homosexuals have no choice on their orientation. But it is not. No matter how much LGBT agenda says so, it's false. Do child molesters and murders have the right to practice thier sin as anyone else? No. If homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin, then people who practice homosexuality do not have the right to do what they want. Anyone can believe whatever they want to believe, but that doesn't make their belief right. In the example above, I am allowed to believe gravity doesn't exist. If someone says I'm going to die if I don't believe in gravity, then he is right. Period. It doesn't matter if I think it's absurd or not. No so. We have many logical proof, from the scientific community that God exists. Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas and many others used mathematics to prove the movement of stars and the existence of God through logical reasoning. Moreover, science, a limited philosophy that cannot explain infinity, cannot prove the existence of God. Again, how you interpret Christian morales doesn't defer to the existence of God. I apologize for all the Christians who give the wrong idea and view of God. If you truly believe there is something greater out there, don't look at a general stereotype of Christians only. Look for God himself. Every Christian church will have a different answer. The Orthodox Churches will say yes, "everything in the Bible is right." If you would like to discuss something in particular, go ahead. For humans to live with God and share in eternal love. If you want more detail, we can discuss.
". . .no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:3
First did you have time to watch all the links (videos) I posted? God is not a 'something' or 'greater out there'. God is the Creator of all things and all creatures from the smallest to the biggest. He is the designer, the maker and the source of all life. God is love and He is eternal, with His power He sustains the creatures He created according to His unlimited wisdom.
God tells us He created man according to His image. This implies man has also a spirit, besides the body because God is Spirit, so man has both a body and a spirit. God created time and space and He controls them. God can give eternal life and more to the ones who love Him because He loves them too.
Atheists deny themselves what is spiritual and therefore they condemn themselves to be mere animals. They believe that their lives end when they die and that they will exist no more - like any animal that dies. The only difference from animals the atheists can think of is that they have an intelligence and the ability to speak.
What do you think would happen to a person after death?
Does this person really completely end?
GBU
PS: Remnkemi, thanks for the info.