Nofri!
Please explain this: I have been talking to Copts here in Sweden and they say that muslims are evil. How can they do it? thera are bad and good people who call temselves muslims but only the peaceful ones are muslims. why do you coptic people hate islam? you are very ungrateful. there were muslims who protected you after the attack in alexandria.
If you are following coptic orthodoxy without being a copt you are also welcome to discuss this subject.
If copts just complain then they are not very wise people. not all copts hate muslims but most of them do.
Comments
But I would like to bring something up: The Muslims that defend us may be like Christians who don't live a christian life, but just call themselves Christians, or just don't believe in it like some Christians. I am saying this because if you read the Qur'an it says kill anyone that isn't Muslim, so the Muslims that truly believe in everything the Qur'an says are probably the people who the copts hate, but not the people who don't really support the Qur'an.
But I agree, I think we shouldn't hate anyone at all or call anyone evil, it's not for us to judge, and this is said in Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Anyways copts hating Muslims can be considered of a stereotype - just because a few people do something doesn't mean all of the same group do it.
Being Christian requires us to be MORE THAN HUMANS; to be heavenly as our Lord Jesus is and became man to teach how to be. Christianity is clear on views of hate and and stands for peaces
In general, when you see someone treating you as a slave, not giving you the liberty they say they have, not respect your belief and not even respect your life or think it has a worth, you tend to become hateful--it's just being human. That is what had happened in egypt for many years: the government was supporting all hateful actions of muslims against Chrisitans, muslims were killing Christians as they want to, Christians were not getting churches to pray in and even had churches close down for reason such that to keep the "peace" between the Christians and muslims of the area...lastly is what's happening right now: a church was attacked and burned because and idiot girl (who was Christian) choose to leave her lawful husband and run away with a muslim guy; the girl left that guy, hid somewhere and told him i am at that church, he gets all of his people and goes to the church, curses our pope, our priests, burns the church and than latter apologies for doing so denying that he ever did that (despite the video that is every where online of him). Now, tell that you wouldn't hate someone who does that to you?!
And you're right by saying we shouldn't complain; we should always pray, for us and our enemies; but forgive us our humanity.
I feel like the way the question is phrased in the OP is biased to receive the kinds of answers that would confirm the questioner's preexisting ideas of Coptic people. I'm not a Copt, but I'm also not going to make assumptions about how they feel or why. If some Copts hate Muslims that's wrong, just like its wrong when Muslims hate Copts. I'll only add this: Guess which one of the two scenarios leads to more instability, violence, and death in Egypt? It isn't the attitude of the minority towards the majority. We all know that the paranoid Muslims' fantasy of Copts having dungeons and weapons caches hidden in their churches and monasteries is ridiculous. I can't brush off the daily evidences of Islamic aggression towards Copts and their places of worship with the same degree of certainty.
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[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=11428.msg137852#msg137852 date=1305330850]
Some muslims are evil, for example Mohammed. But in reality we need to make the distinction between the individual and the religion. I hate islam, I have no respect for islam, to me islam is clearly a cancer. But I am speaking of the religion itself and not the individual believer.
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[quote author=Abanoub737 link=topic=11428.msg137847#msg137847 date=1305318207]
There's Muslims that defended us? That's great, but then we obviously don't hate those people.
But I would like to bring something up: The Muslims that defend us may be like Christians who don't live a christian life, but just call themselves Christians, or just don't believe in it like some Christians. I am saying this because if you read the Qur'an it says kill anyone that isn't Muslim, so the Muslims that truly believe in everything the Qur'an says are probably the people who the copts hate, but not the people who don't really support the Qur'an.
But I agree, I think we shouldn't hate anyone at all or call anyone evil, it's not for us to judge, and this is said in Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Anyways copts hating Muslims can be considered of a stereotype - just because a few people do something doesn't mean all of the same group do it.
what's wrong with the Quran? ??? ??? ???
Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"
Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."
Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."
Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."
Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."
Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."
Tabari I:280 "Allah said, 'It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid."
Qur'an 5:33 "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly."
Qur'an 5:37 "The [Christian] disbelievers will long to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out there from; and theirs will be an enduring torture."
Ishaq:595 "The Apostle said, 'Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.'"
Ishaq:312 "Umar said to the Apostle, 'Let me pull out Suhayl's two front teeth. That way his tongue will stick out and he will never be able to speak against you again.'
These are just a very small amount of verses demonstrating just how violent Mohammed was. HE claims that the Jews AND the Christians perverted the true faith. Why then can we not find a single verse in which Christ commands anyone to kill any "infidel"? Or any verse of Christ referring to women as domestic animals? What is wrong? I don't know, you tell me?
but there are some who follow the quran literally and are violent.
we defend ourselves when attacked, but we don't go out seeking revenge. we love those who attack us and pray for their repentance. if any coptic Christian behaves differently to this, they are acting against the rules of our church.
The Koran IS to be interpreted literally. It is not like actual scripture having a deeper meaning. Mohammed was not intelligent enough to accomplish that, he was a maniacal, epilleptic, pedophile, with delusions of granduer. I really tried being nice and respectful to islam, I really did, but when I seen some of the recent videos, I say the gloves are off. Speak your mind and tell these people they are being deceived. Islam is a cancer and Mohammed is a devil.
Say that to 1.5 billion muslims. My mom thinks all muslims are devils.
Anyone who has a problem with the truth could stand to open their ears alongside the 1.5 million Muslims who generally can't be bothered to care once the cameras aren't on them.
DEar dzheremi and all,
I think you hit the crux of the matter. IT really is that muslims invite you to debate with them in a childish and immature manner, and when they don't win, they raise their hands and say "miss, miss, that Christian boy/girl is mocking me". In Egypt there is a description for that, understandably an impolite one... and then what happens? They get what they want, and there is no stopping them. I hope I'm wrong, but I did really feel that Mr. Henrik.hank had this attitude, when he started that thread.
Oujai
In truth a Christian (whether Coptic Orthodox or not) cannot really hate any non Christian: the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in us prevent us from hating anybody, instead we can confidently confirm that we love all mankind who are created in the image of God.
CHRISTIANITY TEACHES US TO LOVE OUR ENEMIES
BUT we do not like any kind of hate or terrorist behavior. We are fully entitled to defend our faith, our churches, our Saints and our families using legal and peaceful means as much as we can bear. Us, our women and our children are not the Muslims' slaves: God has created us free and we love Him because He loved us first. We cannot agree on the pillage or destruction of our churches and places of worship. We do not accept our Pope or any Clergy to be falsely accused or humiliated in anyway.
We do not store or use weapons, our only sword is the true Word of God. With the Grace of God our voice is heard by our strong Lord Almighty. We believe He will give us justice in due time.
We have never acted in revenge or violence against any people. We also pray for others and for peace when we pray for ourselves. We are able to forgive our persecutors and those who hate us. We will never be dragged into the civil war Muslim terrorists are trying to ignite daily, these have now been publicly exposed to the whole world and they are the worse propaganda for Islamic religion in this century.
We will remain Christians, standing firm till Judgement Day and we are willing to die like our martyrs did before us for the sake of our faith in Jesus Christ our Savior.
Just a warning: you should know that every Christian is a walking Altar in His Church, regardless of how many churches you are allowed to destroy. Every Christian is also God's child, persecute one and you are thus fighting God Almighty Himself (God forbid).
Zechariah 2
8 For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye.
9 For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."
Repent from your foolishness, may God forgive your sins.
GBU
and what about Sufism followers, are they nice people?
is the problem muslims or arabic muslims according to you?
and what about Sufism followers, are they nice people?
Hey, quit equating the people with the belief!!! We do not hate people, we hate the belief. Quit posting this nonsense like we hate people.
So Sufism or no Sufism, you're still dancing around the issues that make Islam intolerable, Henrik. And for what? For the sake of making Christians seem like bigots for opposing what opposes them, and doing so much more peacefully than Islam ever is to them, at that? I don't appreciate the nature of your questioning, Sir.
[quote author=henrik.hank link=topic=11428.msg137890#msg137890 date=1305383323]
is the problem muslims or arabic muslims according to you?
and what about Sufism followers, are they nice people?
Hey, quit equating the people with the belief!!! We do not hate people, we hate the belief. Quit posting this nonsense like we hate people.
I can't agree more with Ioannes (it's good to have you back buddy). You need to get off this website because this is not the first stupid nonsense thread you have posted here, but you have created a series of threads that express extreme stupidity beyond belief. I am getting very sick of this. Unless you want to learn, get off this site and post your crap somewhere else.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=11428.msg137896#msg137896 date=1305386939]
[quote author=henrik.hank link=topic=11428.msg137890#msg137890 date=1305383323]
is the problem muslims or arabic muslims according to you?
and what about Sufism followers, are they nice people?
Hey, quit equating the people with the belief!!! We do not hate people, we hate the belief. Quit posting this nonsense like we hate people.
I can't agree more with Ioannes (it's good to have you back buddy). You need to get off this website because this is not the first stupid nonsense thread you have posted here, but you have created a series of threads that express extreme stupidity beyond belief. I am getting very sick of this. Unless you want to learn, get off this site and post your crap somewhere else.
Is that what we call a welcoming Christian community? I'd definitely feel welcomed in his position.
let us all pray for each other and love our enemies
:)
I would not have phrased anything in the way that Geomike has phrased it, Khas, but I think there is a point to be made here. If Henk is here to learn, he is going about it in the wrong way by starting from his assumptions (as well do), and sticking with them and continuing to provoke and paint a false and insulting picture of the very people he's requesting information from after they tell him that he is turned around on this issue (as only insolent people do). If Henk would care to prove me wrong, I'll certainly reverse my opinion when he manages to post anything that isn't needlessly insulting and in some cases dangerous blasphemy (accusing GOD of being "lazy" in what was supposed to be a sort of prayer request).
Yes, sometimes i do get carried away and i apologize, but i still stand behind the main idea of my post.
To watch some clips on how much Copts are liked from their fellow citizens:
http://www.youtube.com/user/fcv2fcv2#g/u
this is just a sample, most of these clips are in Arabic tho
But we Christians obey what Christianity teaches:
Romans 12
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.
16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.
18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath;
for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
20 Therefore,
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
GBU
This is another good site that has up to date news clips.
http://www.ch-site.com/main/
CNN is also corrupted by dishonest reporters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTD4qxIRpUg
GBU
Please, guys. Relax, you don't know what Henrik.Hank's motives are. Please do not assume his motives are wrong, but rather that you are taking him the wrong way. Right now you are just showing to him that we aren't loving people, and are setting a bad example (although this may not be the case it is easy for a visitor or for him to see it this way). There has been a point in all of our lives where we have asked something that seemed not too smart (putting it nicely ;)), and if it was dealt in a loving way it saved us embarrassment when we fully understood the situation. If my FoC reacted like this to all of the stupid things I've said, I would be hurt.
I guess I was just angry since I have seen and met nice muslims and it upsets me when people say that muslims in general are bad. If I did write something wrong here on tasbeha.org please tell me.