There is help and there is a solution. Please let me know if you are interested in learning more. I can direct you to Coptic Clergy and servants specialized in these matters.
I understand that this is a hard time. However, God is fair. I believe that miracles can happen and this will get fixed with patience & diligence. Although i am no psychologist myself & have no clear cut explanation of what you should and shouldn't do lol , just remember that God is by your side & there are people out there who have it so much worse. You are in my prayers & i am sure things will get better ! God be with you
Hi everyone, Thanks for your continuous support...I have a favor to ask..I heard Dr. Nabil Baky is a great marriage counselor...I tried to reach him in 3 yrs ago I was successful...but I couldn't nowadays...it would be great if somebody has his phone number,
PART 1 of 4-This response is posted in 4 Parts to comply with size limitations.
miracleseek, I read through this very important post on 5/25/2011 and joined the forum in order to provide my personal experiences, studies, comments and insights to your lamentable demonic feminism controlled marriage. You are God blessed to be able to perceive and state the unplesant experiences of your wife’s relevant demented illusions and actions so clearly in relation to God’s general Orthodox Biblical gender and family commandments. Sadly, during the last 5 disappointing years of my life in the newly feminized RC church and in the following 30 years of orthodox practice including the last 15 years as Coptic Orthodox, I have unsuccessfully diligently searched for an Orthodox patriarch, bishop, priest, teacher, author, or counsellor who proudly, openly understands and espouses these eternal gender and family commandments. Many/most/all of our orthodox officials choose to defer to the demonic demands/desires of their rebellious feminist priests’ wives and daughters, nuns, mothers, family, “friends”, prominent/bold parishioners/medical scientists and/or political popularity rather than acknowledge/ teach the patriarchal Word of God, which is “out of modern popular fashion”. So, my experience indicates that you are unfortunately seeking “official” confirmation of gender and family spiritual truth from the spiritually blind, deaf and dumb in this area of family life and theology. Most of these “officials” will refer you to mercenary atheistic freudian psychological remedies to your wholely spiritual problems. I believe, however, that you now are seeking the spiritual answers you need in the only available reasonable resource venue- Orthodox Christian spiritual discussion forums. Maybe eventually you’ll be able to post an edited and updated version of your marriage circumstances on other Orthodox forums to encourage more discussion and interest in this crucial ministry of God’s patriarchal creation order and that of His princely, Apostles SS. Peter and Paul-during their fast and feast. I believe a special forum topic should be strictly dedicated to Orthodox discussions of God’s Biblical gender and family codes and their relevance today, on some Orthodox forum site.
[quote author=miracleseek link=topic=11418.msg137744#msg137744 date=1305139424] Hello, I came here as I am helpless...Nobody can help me...nobody has time for me...anyways I got married to a controlling wife who have told me before the marriage that "you are not to do anything without me..you can't meet friends without me" she was referring to my male firends...It sounded ridiculous...the father of confession thought that that was anybody will do till they get married and then it is gonna change after the wedding.. we got married...the problem got magnified....Now I am not allowed to make phone calls to friends at work....i started arguing and wiht no change of heart...
The control has grown further and further and thr trophy wife (yes ..a princess indeed) choosing a luxurious house...car...disconnecting me from my firends completely (mission accomplished)...disconnecting me from my dad (just because she can't agree with his life style)..Any thing that she pleases she does...If you dare to argue...you are in for a night of craziness..ranging from confinning you in a room ..talking down to you...pushing you at times...taking my wallet car keys...stopping me from going to my professional license exam ...jus the fear I can meet my brother...the list goes on and on...controlling what i eat...where to work...confescating my cell phone...check the logs daily All these things and I am pleadind with all fathers of confessions...all say pray and be patient...and nobody cann't convince her of anything...
We were selfish (yes selfish) enough to have 2 wondeful kids...I cater to these kids with all my power to take care of them from A to Z...as she can't take care of them (the princess she is)...waking up in the middle of the night ...feeding...changing...playing...driving to daycare and pickup...the kids are attached to me...I try to take them to church every suday...but I get stopped by the wife who wants to confine everyone at home...she says "you don't know God...so don't go pretend"...she lives up to her statement ..."you won't have a social life with me"...even going to church...taking the wallet and hiding the keys The matters are running out of hand..as I am being abused in front of the kids...being called names..." If you don't like it leave"...plus the fact that I got forced into having her parents at home...
It is getting worse by the day...I am on the firge of banckrupcy as I have to choose a job with a locaton that pleases her...away from my family and my (now) ex friends....I need serious help ..as I tried to get the police to help me in the beining of my marraiage and I don't want to do it again as It will destroy her career.. please help
If your confession father before marriage had respect for and obedience to God’s gender and family commandments, he would have warned both of you of her open feminist rebellion against your authority and against God’s order for marriage, clearly instructed both of you of the relevant gender commandments, and refused to marry you into this openly apostate marriage relationship. Your marriage ceremony under this rebellious, apostate relationship was an obvious mockery of God’s family laws and of the Coptic Marriage Liturgy. See, Malachi 2.1-17 (Priest/God witnessed marriages should comply with all of God’s relevant commandments). If you love Me, obey My commandments. Jn. 14.15. Sadly, I believe that many/most U.S. Orthodox marriages, in the last 30-40 years, include some of the same defects and experience a resulting increasing incompatability/ divorce rate, to the inevitable ultimate lifelong spiritual, mental and physical detriment of the spouses, their families and their children - and all to the delight of Satan and His heretical feminist guerillas. All of God’s patriarchal gender and family commandments are based on His first relevant gender and family order commandments at the time of His creation of the first man and woman. I will make him a HELPER fit for him. Gen. 2.18. You desire to rule your husband, but he is to rule over you. Gen. 3.16b. God’s Word repeats and clarifies this patriarchal principle throughout the Old Testament Scriptures. Jesus and His Apostles, through the Holy Spirit, continue to repeat and clarify God’s same gender and family order commandments in the New Testament Scriptures (but sadly, no longer through the churches using His name). For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, His body, and is Himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in EVERYTHING to their husbands. Eph. 5.23,24. And, Likewise (as obedient Christian slaves are submissive even to abusive masters) you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the Word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, when they see your reverent and chaste behavior. 1 Pet. 3.1,2.
PART 2-miracleseek, continuing Your wife seems to be a very well trained and dedicated demonic feminist terrorist suicide bomber. She has apparently decided to seek her promised Coptic (by Pope Shenouda; Bishops Mousa, Angaelos, Youssef, Serapion, Rofael, etc.; Priests/authors Tadros Malaty, Athanasius Iskander, etc.) female equality in marriage by blowing up her own marriage and family. She has imposed most of the abuses and slanders, that feminists typically use to criticize men, on you and your children. She has usurped for herself, all of the family authorities that God has given exclusively to husbands. Father Matta Meskeen would be impressed by her feminist evolution. Sadly, this is not a rare behavior by the last 2-3 generations of arrogant rebellious “modern/ professional” Coptic (also, Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic and secular) women. I personally know of eleven such Coptic feminist women caused divorces in Houston/ Dallas, involving 18 children.Some involved California raised Coptic women, where, of course, the divorce culture is highest, even involving a Coptic priest’s son and feminist daughter. Shouldn’t we also expect to eventually receive all of the perversions that accompanied the Protestant and Catholic acquiescense to “modern”/ WCC feminists’ demands.
The special blessing of these Coptic/Orthodox discussion forums is the special spiritual insight we all receive from being together is Christ’s name, with Him in our midst. See, Mt. 18:15-20. Eventually God will send us a teacher, like prophet Ezra, to correct our accumulated “modern” spiritual gender and family compromises and heresies back to within compliance with God’s Biblical gender and family codes. A Scriptural example is God’s correction of about nine hundred years of Israel’s prohibited marriages to evil influenced foreign women. God corrected this disobedience through Ezra. God’s solution was painful and not unlike the shame of returning to the spirit of complete obedience and submission, to their husbands, of rebellious misled modern feminist (foreign) orthodox women and the return of undisciplined modern children to obedience to their parents. When Israel entered the Promised Land, God had prohibited the men of Israel from marrying the evil influenced local foreign women. Some of the people of Israel disobeyed God’s prohibition for about nine hundred years, including their years of suffering under many evil rulers and their repentence in exile in Babylon. When the people of Judah deeply repented from their disobedience while they were returning to Jerusalem, from exile, Ezra established the agreed procedures whereby these prohibited foreign women and their children, were all put away from their husbands and fathers, the repentant priests and men of Israel, in order to comply with God’s original prohibition. See, Ezra 9.1-10.44. A demonstration in these passages of the general patriarchal paradigm of all aspects of God’s creation and His church is the deference God shows to the authority of the foreign husbands of the daughters of Israel. Although the transgressions seem similar, God did not require that these marriages and families be separated. Presumably, the repentant men of Israel were also prohibited from further association with their daughters and sisters who had become “foreigners” by having been given in marriage to foreign men. This adamic first deference to the husband, head of every family was also demonstrated when Jesus told the Samaritan woman to, “Go call your husband and come here" before He would teach His message to her. John 7.16. In a Christ-like spirit, shouldn’t abuna send the complaining wife to call her husband and come with him, before discussing her selfish disloyal confession of his sins? Otherwise, who receives the absolution? Her absent husband? Her unconfessed betrayal of her husband? Abune's apostacy?
PART 3-miracleseek, continuing I definitely believe you should seriously consider a civil divorce. Your wife (and her parents) are obviously intent to disobey God’s marriage commandments and she invites you to leave the marriage, or submit to her apostate leadership. But, your final decision should be an informed decision. If it becomes your wife’s decision to divorce, you may not have time and strength to become informed. As a teacher, through her education and years of girl talk in the teachers’ lounges, with discussions with many seasoned divorce war strategy and tactics veterans and philosophers, she is probably fully informed and planned for her divorce attack and defense. In order to make a reasonable decision in this matter it is necessary that you obtain some personal knowledge of your local divorce laws and customs. There are four practical means for you to obtain this knowledge that I can think of now. This entire process will benefit from your preparation of a written summary of the marriage problems you are experiencing. An edited version of all of your statements and responses here would be a very good start. Copy and paste all of your statements here into a single document. Edit and re-edit this document to the best of your ability. Have copies of this written statement to give to persons you are seeking to help you. You must edit the statement as you proceed to improve its clarity. With regret, I am not going to tell you to rely upon advice from your priest or bishop because, in every incident that I am aware of the use of this natural procedure, it has been detrimental, inciting, and obstructive of the fathers’ and his childrens’ best interests. They did not defer to the fathers’ primary authority and instead, if they took any interest at all, sought to take over the fathers’ authority and sponsored/ supported the rebellious interests of the rebellious feminist wife. So, you should, simultaneously:
1. Search on the internet for and contact local, regional and national divorced fathers’ support groups. These groups usually contain many concerned, generous, experienced divorce wars veterans; including some divorced male and female lawyers, who understand the importance for your children that their father obtain all possible rights to have authority and participate as fully as possible in children’s lives during and after divorce.
2. Seek out and privately introduce yourself, your brother, your father and any good friends (if they are willing) to Coptic/Orthodox men/ fathers who have themselves been victims of rebellious feminist wives and have endured the full divorce process of preparation, litigation/settlement and post divorce adjustments. Most will have been hurt so deeply that they won’t want to even discuss the experience. Many have left the church in disgust for its opposition to their God given family authority. If you respectfully develop more familiarity with them and let them know your circumstances, most will think about your circumstances and become inspired to offer you all the help that they can. If they have experienced a good - or bad - attorney, they will help you to better understand this lottery.
3. Hundreds of fathers’ self-help divorce books have been written. Internet reviews will help you pick out the books that you are attracted to. The libraries are full of these books of various divorce philosophies and procedures. Approach this phase like you would approach any secular academic/intellectual interest. I’m sure some of these subjects are audio/ video recorded. This may benefit you. I think that at this time, this subject is more important to you and your children than any secular academic subject/major you have ever pursued, or even considered. There are also many books written to help you to more effectively relate to and support your children through the entire divorce and post divorce processes. These are also helpful if you are able to stay married. I’m sure you’ll have some fine lines to walk in this subject area. It appears that your wife may be brainwashed in the anti-patriarchal, atheistic freudian education philosophies, which are reflected in many of the “self-help” books. It appears that she is practicing the physical and thought control techniques of these philosophies on you. Faith, scripture and prayer will help you walk in this new-age minefield.
4. I also suggest that you begin to have, free or low cost, initial interviews with as many local divorce attorneys, male and female, as you can. Give them a copy of your written summary statement and ask them what procedure they recommend and how much it will cost. As you probably know, attorneys can be peculiar and challenging people to do business with. Lying and arrogant misrepresentation are usually tools of their trade. It is usually easier and more profitable for them to lie to their own client. There are a few exceptions and personal referrals are usually the best way to find these exceptions from someone with long term familiarity with an attorney, but don’t expect to find these rare pearls. If your employer has a regular attorney, you may ask him to suggest a divorce attorney for you to interview. However, an attorney, good or bad, is usually absolutely necessary to obtain any benefits for your children in divorce court. This is a major reason that your self-education is of first importance. There are also very good self-help books, by attorneys, that are very helpful to become able to work with and control your attorney. It could be very important to you to combine divorce and bankruptcy. Cover this in all of your attorney interviews. An experienced attorney would have to analyze this issue. I have not seen good legal results by any of the few Arabic speaking attorneys I have observed. Many of the victim Coptic husbands that I have mentioned made a first bad choice to pick an Arabic speaking attorney that they felt would sympathize with their culture. Bad reasoning, bad results. You should seek an attorney that looks like and can relate effectively with the local divorce judge’s culture. Make time to personally observe actual divorce court cases. This will feel uncomfortable at first, but it is to your children’s best interest for you to overcome this discomfort in order to help your own case, which will last at least, until your youngest child is 18 years old.
PART 4-miracleseek, continuing The next issue is her tendency to unlawful and abusive behavior. You didn’t describe the bases of the police involvement that you briefly mentioned. Her assaults, confinements, thefts and threats are unlawful actions that merit police protections. My concern is that she is setting you up to be arrested on actual or fabricated domestic violence charges. You have to be very concerned for this type of problem. Some states prohibit any unsupervised contact with your children if you have domestic violence charges or convictions. In addition, these problems involve defense attorney costs, etc. If she provokes you to anger or fabricates a threat or assault charge to police, some jurisdictions, will not leave both parties at the home and will require arrest and jail of one of the parties. The presumption would be to leave her with the children and take you to jail, no questions asked. This is very dangerous and expensive. I suggest that if she ever makes any threat or move toward calling police, you should leave immediately (don’t take the children unless the threat to them is very serious, this could lead to more charges and trauma for the children) and not return until you are certain she has changed her mind or tactics. It is always wise to have a friend or family member present to witness these risky occasions. I’m sure she is well educated and trained in this area through her teacher education and association with other divorced and feminist teachers and school security persons. On the other hand, a domestic violence or abuse conviction against her should bolster and economize your custody case, which you should seriously consider. Many of these violent Coptic ladies are dish, frying pan, knife, purse, shoe, fist, fingernail, etc. throwers. If these incidents leave any marks of violence on you or the children, you should consider immediately making a police report for her domestic violence/ abuse. You should also seek to make audio and/or video recording of as many of her fits and rages as possible. It may be cultural that most of the violent Coptic feminists seem to be meek and dignified to abuna and in public, but are loud, lazy, selfish, raging she-devils to their husband and family in the privacy of their home and/or car. In three of the Houston divorces that I mentioned above, the Coptic “ladies” were physically abusive and then fabricated police abuse charges against their husbands. One physically abusive Coptic “bride” cut off her husband’s sexual relations and then made rape and adultery charges against him. Her priest assisted another Coptic “lady” in fabricating and threatening assault and abuse charges against her husband. His diocesan hierarch, 2 priests, leaders of 2 parish feminist/ ladies societies and Dr. Yousry colluded with his feminist wife to deprive his three young children of all contact with their father for 18 months. Childrens Protective Services later gave him custody of the children because of “sweetie’s abuses of them. There are probably exceptions, but in every divorce case that I know of (many hundreds) the divorce experience damaged/ perverted the victim children’s parental/ family bonds with both parents, with the grandparents, and with other relatives. A large, long term Swedish study determined increased rates of anti-social behavior and addictions in boys and girls who were raised in single parent “homes.” Natural trusts of all involved/ concerned are obviously weakened.
The concerned innocence and disbelief of some of the sympathetic responders is admirable. You can easily spot the ones who have been propagandized by the mercenary, demonic Coptic freudian marriage/ divorce conferences. They imply, let us reason together under Satan’s agenda and with his demonic disciples! Other responders, thankfully, don’t have a clue. I was no different when I was served, right after arriving at work, with an undiscussed, completely surprise divorce petition and order not to have any contact with my young children. Two hours earlier, I had left my wife resting in our marital bed while I fed the early rising children some breakfast, as usual. I had reported too much income on the earlier income tax filing that year, so my Boston Irish Catholic wife and her clandestine attorney decided to kill the goose that was laying the golden eggs. The gander lives, but the eggs all became rotten/ fool’s gold. In this regard, it could be advantageous for you to go through divorce/custody while un-/ under- employed. The corrupt divorce courts love to hang onto “big bucks” divorces, but won’t waste much time on poor clients.
As the Holy Scriptures demonstrate, all of we men are sinners, some worse than others. God knew this when he gave us authority over our wives and daughters. I guess He could have given women authority over us. Eve’s results couldn’t have been worse when she secretly took charge of the affairs of all humanity and creation, in their original, simpler circumstances. See, Gen. 3.1-24. We also have many more examples of similarly demonic/ feminist women throughout the Holy Bible.
In addition to families, no functioning entity can survive challenging circumstances or dangers under the control of two equally powerful, competing leaders. We don’t have two Popes, yet; two bishops; two Presidents, cars and ships with two steering wheels and drivers, etc. Equal authority (as all of the current Coptic family literature and Freudian counselors espouse) =no authority. This chaos shows in every challenging incident and in the increasing Coptic divorce and feminism rate. Because demonic, atheistic Freudian philosophy is being imposed so vigorously on the Coptic and most other Western Orthodox jurisdictions, I recommend that all tradition devoted Orthodox Christians view all four (4) parts of the award winning BBC documentary history of Freudian psychiatry/ counselling (from Freud to Bill Clinton/ Tony Blair) that is entitled, “The Century of the Self.” I find it best by googling: <bbc video the century of the self parts 1-4>. I am in wonder! How can any christian trust church leaders who systematically turn their troubled families over to such a, publically self-admitted (in this industry sponsored documentary), insane mercenary industry? Please tell me, I’m dumb-struck/ dumbfounded. For a closer historical look at Freud’s cocaine inspired bases for his demonic psychiatric “genius” which is being imposed deceptively and secretly, as “pre-marital and family counseling,” on all U.S. Coptic clergy and families, check out the historical essay - Freud and Cocaine - at http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/cocaine/. Several seasoned M.D.’s have told me that psychiatrists and psychologists have the lowest academic qualifications and the highest rates of drug abuse and suicide in the medical industry.
But how do you understand this passage from St. Paul?:
Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. (1 Cor. 7:2-7)
(emphasis mine)
It seems to me he is creating a radical equality in marriage. Such a statement should not be taken lightly considering the time he wrote this.
Also, what exactly are you referring to when you say the clergy are encouraging "demonic feminists"? Although my arabic is limited, whenever I have heard sermons regarding family issues the speaker always reverts to saying women should keep in their roles and follow the men and the men must follow Christ and make the correct decisions. . .
It's because of people like you that I have sought to leave Coptic Orthodoxy as a whole, save for one thing that has kept me in it. Men and women are equal in the sight of God, even in marriage; man is head of the woman, that doesn't make them unequal. We are not Muslims. We are not men's property. WE ARE EQUAL. We will be judged the same for our sins before God. We're not living in sexist Jewish times dude, get with the times!
Your post was very offensive. True, there are demonic females in the Bible but there are also VERY DEMONIC MALES as well. Let's not forget that. And what about St. Mary? Deborah the PROPHETESS. Feminism is not a bad thing...only when it goes too far and from the way you stated things, sadly, you would push me overboard to be more feminist than I already am and to possibly leave the church altogether. What doesn't make sense to me is that if women were not equal with men, why the heck would God even bother creating women and bother saving them? FYI, St. Mary is above all the saints, male and female...explain that one buddy...
I don't think irishpilgrim had any intention of degrading women but was attacking feminism in particular, but maybe I misread his post, he can speak for himself.
If I may ask you a few questions, I will:
In a marriage, does the woman share equal authority with the man?
Also what do you mean by equal? A father is equal to his son (assume he is old enough to vote) in terms of social, political, and civil rights - does that mean he has no authority over him? A wife is equal to her husband in many ways - does that mean he has no authority over her?
Do you think the bible supports a patriarchal structure in which the head male of the family is in charge?
I am just trying to see where you stand because often this issue is not talked about and women who do not understand the topic feel marginalized and leave the church.
Godlovesme, i think irish pilgrim is still feeling a lot of pain from his divorce, that's why he came across so angry. it is true that wives should submit to their husbands. however, no one should leave the church over this, especially as no-one is forcing you to get married!
also husbands should love the wives as Christ loved the church (dying for her!) so that is no less sacrifice. in a marriage, both people need to make really big sacrifices. that's how it works.
as for the original poster, plus irish pilgrim and all those feeling the pain of a stressful marriage or divorce, may God guide you and heal the pain. God is similarly separated from us when we sin, let us make it our priority to stay close to Him at all times and not push away our Lord who loves us so much.
I get the feeling your wife is jealous. This comes about by insecurity. I think you will have to make her feel good about herself in a non-judgemental way.
You will have to accept the way she feels about something and reflect those feelings back to her. By saying - "you feel that ....." or "you sound ..." and fill in the rest by describing in your words how she feels.
It doesn't mean you are going to lose yourself. You are who you are. As GOD said to Moses, "I am Who I am." You have your territory. If some one came up and stood on your foot by accident most people would say sorry. So you have to define those boundries. You have to say how you feel when she comes into your territory. Be assertive in actions you decide on and take. She will get angry, but you have to get back your territory a little bit at a time. So start by protecting little parts at first and eventually she won't be insecure enough to have her parents there as well. Give her praise for the good things she does. This builds confidence.
May GOD protect you, strenghten you, and always be your guide.
I think this user, Joshua, has given the best advice here.
Now, this is what I think the problem is, from reading a bit about you, and your situation.
Your wife wants to punish you. She believes in God, but hates God for allowing her to get married. Which means that YOU may have done something wrong before you got married.
Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you? Did she feel that you were the only option available? Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors?
She obviously isn't in love with you - and if she was jealous, I'd be OK with that, but this isn't jealousy. This is punishment.
Its obvious.
In fact, I don't know your wife, but I'd say she's very religious indeed, and maybe she is even mad at God for allowing her to get married.
If this is case, you need to say, that way I can give you the best advice. Im 110% sure that what Im saying is the reason.
If you seduced your wife before marriage, and she felt obliged to marry you because of it, or if you had sexual experiences that she didn't, she could feel hatred against you.
What you are enduring is pure hatred. I don't believe she has a mental problem. She has a spiritual problem.
Maybe she depended on God for marrying someone, and she ended up with you (not to make it sound bad against you) - and now she hates God for allowing her marriage to be with you. It could be for ANY of these reasons.
Women, who get married between 21 to 30, MAY feel their life is over at the point of marriage, and they could genuinely blame you for that. ITS TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE, i know - but if she had a good social life, and knew many friends, and was not sure about you, but depended on God to close this door with you, and it didn't close (i.e. you ended up getting married), she could hate you and God.
Ultimately, if what I'm saying is true, there are a few things you can do to help the situation:
a) Tell her that she decided , with her free will to marry you. Part of being an adult is that we are responsible for the decisions we make, and we don't take it out on others if we feel that we've made the wrong ones.
b) That she is assuming that she'd have found better than you - she doesn't know. She may have found worse.
I am pretty sure that when she sees the sacrifices you have given to calm her insecurities and her hatred, she will love you more. She IS the same girl you fell in love with, but marriage, at the wrong time, for some people, can produce bad results.
I would not talk about divorce yet or think this. Not at all.
But try to understand what is upsetting her. This is NOT the girl you married dude. She is definately not herself.
You went through this ridiculuous rant on coptichymns.net a year ago and I closed the forum due to your offensive comments on the Coptic Church, Pope Shenodua, and the clergy. Do not come to a Coptic forum and insult Coptic bishops and ironically call it anti-patriarchal feminist agenda. I hope the administrators here keep a close eye on your comments. It's obvious you are transferring your hatred of feminism and divorce to miracleseek. You don't know his situation. You only have his version of the story and yet you are counselling him on how to get a divorce and join some sort of a Coptic divorced-men-fallen-victim-to-feminist-induced-Coptic-clergy society. It's obvious you never will understand the sacrament of marriage and how to resolve marital problems without condemning everyone who disagrees with your fundamentalist, pseudo-patriarchial, pseudo-utopic standards.
Unworthy1, Thank you for your precise, objective response. Pardon me for not using the Forum’s very helpful facility for including quotations in the body of posts. My O’Geek level of incompetence is showing. I lost a day and considerable text trying to use this feature while composing my last post. I’ll figure it out later, in the mean time please bear with my humble best efforts.
St. John Chrysostom’s Homily XIX on First Corinthians gives us a detailed explanation of the purpose and nuances of St. Paul’s typically rich text in 1Cor. 7:2-7. Chrysostom explains that St. Paul constructed this narrow exception to the general scriptural patriarchal husband’s perogatives over his wife in order to prevent a situation where the husband exercised his general authority by withholding relations with his wife (perhaps even to pray more fervently) and thereby caused her to seek adultery in sexual lust from Satanic temptations. To be amazed by St. Paul’s eternal apostolic spiritual counsel and St. Chrysostom’s mystical understanding and explanation of the nuances of St. Paul’s God inspired insight and intent, go to the cited NPNF text and read (in neo-Shakesperean English) Chrysostom’s loyal patriarchal full discussion of this passage. To make an authoritative response to your question, I have to defer to acceptance of St. Chrysostom’s understanding and explanation of the passage you quoted. The crux of Chrysostom’s rebuttal of your (seemingly unintentional demonic feminism inspired) innocent supposition is quoted below:
Elsewhere I grant He gives to the husband abundant precedence, both in the New Testament, and the Old saying, (LXX. Gen. iii. 16.) “Thy turning shall be towards thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” Paul doth so too by making a distinction thus, and writing, (Ephes. v. 25, 33.) “Husbands, love your wives; and let the wife see that she reverence her husband.” But in this place we hear no more of greater and less, but it is one and the same right. Now why is this? Because his speech was about chastity. “In all other things,” says he, “let the husband have the prerogative; but not so where the question is about chastity.” “The husband hath no power over his own body, neither the wife.” There is great equality of honor, and no prerogative. Chrysostom, 1Cor. 7:2-6, Homily XIX, 1:12npnf 105, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xx.html
It may be helpful to point out a very important caution to you and other interested readers. Many tireless, highly skilled and intelligent, demonically inspired feminist theologians (some call themselves thealogians) are now attacking the few remaining loyal elements of the once larger and more homogenous one, holy, catholic (universal), apostolic, orthodox church of God. Their primary intellectual tactics are to re-translate, to re-interpret, and to paraphrase the Holy Bible and the writings of the Fathers of the Orthodox Church into a feminist favoring/ tolerant form. As your response witnessed, every word will be turned any possible way and every means will be perverted to achieve a demonic/feminist bias or to discredit or confuse every patriarchal or anti-feminist point of view. I have found self-serving misrepresentations, omissions, or embellishments in all Catholic and feminist “theological” works. These feminists have even made their self-serving translations of excerpts of St. Chrysostom’s writings to make it appear that he opposed St. Paul’s general patriarchal intent in all of Paul's gender and family teachings. My rule of thumb is to ignore or independently confirm every modern (especially after about 1960) theological/ scriptural interpretation/conclusion that states or implies an anti-patriarchal or pro-feminist premise. This is an especially difficult problem for relative novices in precise English language critical theological study, as the major/least biased English translation was done at Oxford before 1900. The style of English prose is challenging to modern readers. In general, if it isn’t patriarchal, it can’t be true to the Holy Bible. There are, of course, exceptions which are all explainable. Feminists, like most protestants, tend to base an argument on one or two verses, out of their entire relevant context. In its relevant context, it is probably impossible to find an anti-patriarchal phrase in the entire Holy Bible. It is the Word of God, our Father, and Jesus Christ, His Son.
Not to pick on you, but your seeming points of view are small clear examples of the seductive, all-consuming, ravaging power that demonic (dishonest/ deceptive/ divisive) feminist/ goddess theology has already seized in all of the so-called christian churches, even in the leadership of our beloved Coptic Church (the persecuted monastic enlightener of the enlighteners of then persecuted, now drunken, uncivilized, sodomized, Ireland). Yes, as you infer, the God hating feminist/goddess theologians have created and are now sowing demonic cultural scriptural exegesis. Under this heresy, God’s Word in the Holy Bible can’t be eternal, but must be intellectually and culturally temporal/ “evolutionary”/ developing/ manipulatable/ remoldable (by their deceptive, demonic God hating agenda). Not patriarchal/ decisive/ uncompromisable, but more modern/ reasonable/ platonic/ homogenous/ feminist/ goddess-like/ “lovable”/ all-tolerant/ new-age/ inexhaustable mother-earth, etc.
The demonic clerical encouragements that discourage me are mostly subtle, unexplained, unwritten, oral misrepresentations; of the clear, traditional Orthodox patriarchal paradigm of God’s, the Apostles’ and the Holy Fathers’ commandments and counsel; that tickle the ears of, the otherwise bold, load, raging, gossiping, uncovered Coptic feminists. For a few of the more overt examples that I have witnessed or documented: Pope Shenouda’s unexplained joking slander, in English, in Nashville, that the money earned by a married Coptic woman’s outside employment is “her money, she can spend it as she wants, ” outside of her husband’s God given authority. The unexplained heretical statement in many English translations of the Coptic Marriage Liturgy that “... husband and wife/man and woman are equal... .” The unexplained deletion of all reference to the text and commentary of 1 Peter 3:1-6 in a popular English translation of Fr. Tadros Malaty’s commentary on the First Epistle of St. Peter. Bishop Angaelos’ vague, deceptive, unexplained “waffling” lecture on the feminist Coptic Church. The unexplained, seemingly uncanonical, ordination of women on, seemingly, all U.S. Coptic parish Boards of Deacons. Bishop Serapion’s seeming public commemoration of prominent Protestant/Islamic/Coptic feminist scholar/ author/ provocator, Nelly van Doorn-Harder. Prominently featuring Nelly on the Home page of Coptic Hymns.net. The seemingly equal votes of men and women in U.S. Coptic church elections. The establishment of feminist led and feminism promoting “Ladies Societies” in every U.S. Coptic parish that I am aware of. The distribution of Fr. Athanasius Iskander’s feminist biased article entitled “Creation” that misrepresents that Gen. 1:27; “Means that both male and female were created equal having the same God-given authority, ... .” p.1-2. Bishop Mousa has created and widely distributed similarly biased misrepresentations of the traditional Orthodox understanding of God’s gender and family codes in the Holy Bible and by the Orthodox Fathers to Coptic youth. Sadly, the list goes on, with no policy of public/written contradictions, in English, that I am aware of. In stead, there seems to be an iron fisted official code of heretical silence. Pope Shenouda and his bishops are rumored to jealously harshly enforce their own patriarchal authority against their captive clergy and their desparately dependent families in order to compel a united betrayal of the God given gender and family authority of all of the father heads and well intended holy Coptic wives and daughters in struggling Coptic immigrant families. It is unimaginable to me that all U.S. Coptic priests, especially those burdened with rebellious feminist wives of their own, personally agree with this inevitably fatal capitulation to feminist/ goddess betrayal of God’s created patriarchal gender and family order.
To me, the most pathetic victims of this seemingly new demonic heresy in the (still overtly) orthodox churches are the obviously insecure, unnaturally/unculturally segregated, frantically raging, misled, unevangelized, traditionally marginalized wives, mothers and daughters who are being demonically spiritually oppressed, not only by the world, but even by the officials and falsely esteemed members of their own (christian?) churches. Eve was not able to resist this same demonic deception to disobedience and rebellion, while tempted only by Satan. Our wives, mothers, grandmothers, sisters, daughters, relatives and neighbors (paternal and distaff) now have the same Satanic temptation, and in addition are surrounded by a much more confusing and oppressive army of spiritual, intellectual and human distractors. It took Israel’s religious and family leaders about 900 years of chaotic disciplinary suffering to effectively attempt to return to God’s gender and family codes under their repentance and Ezra’s leadership. See, Ezra 9:1-10:44. I experienced, in my Boston Irish Catholic wife, the rapid maturation (after 10 years of seemingly very compatible traditional marriage life, career growth and family worship in the traditional patriarchal Catholic church) of essentially the same destructive spirit of overt rebellious feminist rage that miracleseek’s wife had developed (even before marriage) in the currently neo-feminist/ freudian nurturing Coptic church. At the time of my wife’s change of heart, faith, and spousal behavior, the “new” Catholic church was seeking ways to accomodate the newly bold, loud, raging rebellion of a new generation of professionally and theologically educated, increasingly atheistic/ freudian/ homo(perverse)sexual/ feminist nuns, and women social and physical scientists. The traditionally patriarchial/pastoral Catholic priests were replaced or re-educated in the modern “rational” psycho/social sciences. Many thousands of priests and nuns left their vocations and faith. Eventually a compromising/methodical “synthesis” was surrendered which left the complete range Catholic education and seminary policy and practice largely in the control of feminist/homosexual coalitions, bishops and clergy. My beloved ancestral Ireland has followed the U.S. Catholic (church?) down to the same apostacy. My main concerns are the obvious indications that the new Coptic feminists/freudians and feminist/freudian accomodating leadership of the Coptic Church are secretly, hypocritically anxious to join this same modern spirit. This spirit has enabled the U.S. Catholic church to fall to the same immorality (divorce, abortion, STD, teen pregnancy, drug use, etc.) rates as the general U.S. population. Acheiving this level of Coptic immorality would probably greatly increase the GDP/financial status and standard of livings of members of the Coptic psycho/medical industry. I can’t think of any other seeming beneficiaries. For a recent update in this “christian” saga, consider these remaining taints of Irish conscience: http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/103226/20110120/sexual-abuse-pope-priests.htm . Even I will admit that Coptic Saints have a better tradition record of Christian faith and courage, in suffering, than the Irish. Here is our hope.
Of course, I am an outsider and have no blood ties (that I know of) to the Coptic traditions, but I understand, from discussions with interested seasoned Coptic priests and husbands that this entire heretical feminist rebellion in the Coptic Church took mature life on Pope Shenouda’s and the current Synod’s watch. Hopefully they will review the Book of Malachi, especially Mal. 2:1-17, and make appropriate obedient, God pleasing corrections. Judgment is inevitable for all of us.
My only Arabic is a few liturgical phrases. I have heard that there is some measured patriarchal preaching, in Arabic on Coptic TV. I have also heard that bold, raging, screaming Coptic feminists occassionally interupt Pope Shenouda’s talks. I don’t know if he obediently changed the subject that the shrews objected to. I have witnessed these shrill, raging rants, in church, by leading Houston Coptic ladies, when my FOC tried to read any of these Biblical gender and family commandment verses during parish bible studies. Abuna’s announced study of these commandments were never able to be completed. I have heard that Bishop Youssef’s bible study, in Dallas, related to these commandments, has been similarly terminated. I have watched, without understanding, some Coptic TV liturgical services. At some, I noticed that large numbers of Coptic women were obviously uncovered during the services. I presumed that this was some type of pre-arranged sign of international Coptic feminist rebellious solidarity. Nelly van Doorn-Harder has noted that the feminist rebellion within St. Mercurios women’s monastery is now in the planned “resistance in obedience” phase. Recently I have heard several accounts of Coptic priests, in Egypt, assisting feminist wives’ rebellions against their families. Some incidents have made the feminist inspired public/ opposition press, which wraps each incident in a demonic feminist propaganda version.
St. Paul gives us the remedy to this heresy, yes even in light of his culture. Bid the older women likewise to be reverent in their behavior, not to be slanderers or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind, and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited. Titus 2:3-5. In my long time Catholic experience, and limited Coptic experience I have never known of the heirarch to support the preparation for and practice of this vital Apostolic women’s ministry. I have seen and heard of far too much promotion of many demonic feminist contrary objectives, such as encouraging and justifying rebellious divorce, in both churches.
Thank you for your reply. It seems you have been following what is happening closely. Whether what you say is true or not, I do not know. A lot what you are talking about is new to me. Whether I am naive or you are exaggerating is unclear.
But in due time all will be exposed.
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
All of the recent catholic and orthodox heresies and frauds that I have understood were done in secret, with minimum collusion, under a cloud of pompous, self-righteous, threatening hypocracy. Like on these forums, if you ask for disclosure, you will be threatened with all kinds unholy consequences. Look at the unholy family hypocracy in Ezra, clerically witnessed apostate marriages for about 900 years of God's tireless righteous discipline.
I think I have all the feminist fish I can fry for awhile in this discussion. The English used to criticize the Irish as being inextinguishable because we bred (in most thanks to the faithful, selfless, loyal care of Irish women) like rabbits. The demonic feminists and their theological frauds seem to breed and sting like mosquitos, or fire ants. Just look at the volume of their "gussied up" heretical trash in any bookstore or library. What shameless, baseless demonic distractions. In a few volumes of the true (not the feminist reconstructions) teachings of most of our Holy Orthodox Fathers, we have had the fulness of the Christian faith for over 1000 years. Take a look at some feminist theology, it is all speculative relativism, the best of it is outdated before it is published. Where will these ideas be in 100 years? Watch the rats run the treadmill, the mosquitos rise like a cloud after a flood.
My thought regarding Ezra is the similarity between their, presumably properly witnessed prohibited marriages to apostate foreign women and Coptic hypocritical liturgical marriages to apostate open or un-/mis-catechized disobedient/rebellious wives, like in miracleseek's, and too many more Coptic cases.
Hello irishpilgrim, I'm not sure of the forgiveness in the things you've said, but gauging from all the adjectives you've used to descibe some women as a problem, then I think forgiveness is far from your mind. Do you think miracleseek is sharing the same hatred as you? He sounds a lot more tolerant, and has shown it.
Thank you for responding to my post. I’ll try to make all of my comments in the spirit of trying to understand, not necessarily agree with, your point of view, which I believe is dangerous to your current and eternal spiritual life. I have tried to justify, based on God’s Holy Bible and the writings of our Holy Orthodox Fathers, as much as I am able, my beliefs and my reasons for these beliefs. I think we could all benefit from an explanation of why feminism is more important to you and to some other Coptic women (and men) than respect for and obedience to the traditional understanding of God’s gender and family commandments. My experience is that U.S. Coptic men and women are being deprived of a very important part of their necessary spiritual knowledge, especially in these post-modern, new-age times, by the Coptic Church’s systemic failure to persistently teach its youth and adult members a thorough traditional knowledge of God’s eternal gender and family commandments and their purpose, for the support of the spiritual, family and community lives of the local and universal church. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me. Hosea 4:6.
You do not clearly explain your conclusions, so I will ask several questions in order that we can clearly understand your positions. If you try to fully explain your beliefs, with supporting bible verses, I hope we’ll all reach a better understanding and many agreements.
Your response was strongly feminist and seemingly immature, somewhat similar to the threatening tantrums that miracleseek describes as his wife’s. Are you going to leave the church if I don’t accept feminism as being God approved. Sorry, it is God, not you, that I must satisfy. Is this the tactic you use to control your family, abuna, your teachers or employers, etc? Are you married? Any prospects? This must be frustrating to you and to those you seek to control. Your response is generally adhominem, without any authoritative references. You even argue against positions that I did not state and do not believe.
In my post, I tried to the best of my limited faith, ability and experience to address miracleseek’s and his children’s desparate pathetic family situation in its modern Western Coptic milieu, which are seemingly caused by having been deceived to marry a seemingly unbelieving and/or uncatechized, rebellious, disobedient, feminist Coptic wife in a witnessed Coptic marriage liturgy. I tried to support the illegitimacy of his marriage and of his wife’s misbehavior with scriptural references to provisions in God’s holy gender and family codes which invest the husband with sole final authority over his wife and family. Because the Coptic clergy is unable to, refuses to even teach, or denies these holy gender and family commandments to its unmarried youth before marriage and to its families after marriage, there has developed a growing custom of feminist, rebellious, disobedient Coptic wives who, against their witnessed Coptic marriage vows, threaten or seek civil divorce in order to obtain child support payments from, control over, or independence from their husband. Because of the severe legal and civil cultural bias against men remaining in any semblance of authority of their children through divorce, I think it is very important that unmarried and married Coptic men become sensitive to and familiar with the civil divorce law and custom in their local divorce court jurisdiction. Feminist wives have many sources of free and low cost pre-divorce counselling, usually including divorced feminist members of their parish Coptic ladies society. In the U.S., all relevant divorce laws are statutes of their residence state. In order to increase their profits from divorce, all mercenary divorce attorneys’ (and mercenary forensic family councellors’) associations have financed manipulations and complications of the local divorce laws. For attorneys’/ counsellors’ benefit, most divorce cases are manipulated to obtain higher payments from the major family income producer, which is usually the husband. In this case, children are usually immediately given to the wife in order to keep the divorce going and to keep the husband paying to obtain some right to participate in his children’s lives. If the wife is righteous and gives the husband all rights to the children that he thinks is best, or if the divorce court gives the children’s care to their father, there is no leverage to extort high attorneys’ fees from the father’s higher income. If the wife faces losing the children and their support payments, she is not likely to generate a profitable case for the attorneys. If the wife has the higher income, or a substantial estate, the divorce court and lawyers/counsellors will often work the same scam against the wealthy wife. If both husband and wife are wealthy, both will be manipulated and oppressed, using the children, to extort the largest attorney/ counsellor fee jackpot. Attorneys’ fees for these divorces are capable of bankrupting a family business. Killing the goose that is laying golden eggs for the family and supported parish. Some Coptic girls have come from Egypt with a seemingly secret rebellious feminist planned option to have some children, then to manipulate and/or divorce their hard working, duped husband. They learn from divorced Coptic movie stars, too. This deeply angers most conscientious betrayed, duped husbands. It seems that East Coast Coptic church officials provoked a divorced father to murder a church official at a church function. This situation seems to be spiritually closely related to God’s family code provision: Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. Eph. 6:4. St. Chrysostom explained that this prohibited provocation was one which caused the child to strike its father; which merited a death sentence for the child.
But, to me, the most pathetic parties to these divorces are the innocent pawned children and the unrepentant self-condemned opportunist feminist wife. The child support (which supported the lifetime incompleteness and misery of the children) will end. The once desired, phony, false vowing bride will have to add camouflage and extra stuffing, or scars, to prevent inevitable signs of the withering and wrinkling of her soul and body.
Does her secret heretical intent to evade/ compromise her marriage vows, void her marriage and qualify her as a prostitute/ concubine?
Are the approving/ encouraging/ acquiescent church, family, feminist supporters her pimps/ solicitors/ enablers?
How will she exercise her equal right to salvation while carrying unrepented (to her husband, children, both families, God, and to all others who were injured by her divorcing) sins of disobeying her marriage vows and God’s commandment to OBEY AND HONOR her husband in EVERYTHING? Eph.5:24.
Won’t she also have to repent to husbands and children of other feminists whom she has encouraged and caused to sin by divorcing their families?
What Coptic priest or bishop taught you that God has different marriage commandments for wives of different times and personal beliefs (Jewish, Muslim, Orthodox)?
If the Coptic leadership and their demonic feminist/freudian allies are depending on their rebellions against God’s family and gender commandments and their duped husbands to establish a spiritual advantage against the traditionally generally modest and obedient Muslim and Orthodox Jewish (and Amish) women, they may be marching together into the junkyard of history.
Try to take off your feminist blinders and look at the reality. Make a comparison to God’s family and gender commandments, any way you choose, with a general sample of Muslim women compared to a similar sample of your demonic Coptic feminists. What’s the measure? Don’t just scream “objectivize” and cover your ears, close your eyes and turn your head. How do you compare in public modesty? in liturgical modesty? in traditional obedience? in family unity? in faith loyalty? What do you consider to be demonic feminism’s strong points? Weaknesses? He also told them a parable, “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? ... .” Luke 6:39. I agree that Coptic men seem to be generally more righteous and God pleasing than Muslim men. But, it seems that Muslim men have done a better job of leading their women to Godly righteousness. Their leadership style seems to be God blessed and effective after the example of King Ahasuerus’ (Xerxes’) decisive discipline of Queen Vashti for her scandalous disobedience. See, Esther 1:1-2:4.
What other persons caused you to seek to leave the Coptic Church?
What were their actions that caused you to seek to leave?
Did these other persons also believe that disobedient feminism is a sin against God’s patriarchal gender and family commandments?
What other church?
What attracted you to this other church?
How much experience have you had in this other church?
What is the one thing that has kept you in the Coptic Church?
What is your understanding of and definitions of EQUAL as you use it in your response?
If you believe that men and women are equal in the sight of God, please explain, what does your statement, that in marriage man is head of the woman, mean?
If the man has God given authority to be head, what equal authority does the wife have? What Bible verses explain these authorities?
Did you learn these definitions and concepts of marriage in a Coptic Church? From whom?
You have seemingly admitted to being, and expressed arguments that indicate that you are proud to be a feminist.
What beliefs and commitments do you have which define your beliefs as a feminist?
Did my advice to miracleseek, to be prepared for a surprise divorce by his feminist wife anger you against me?
Do you approve of miracleseek’s wife’s behavior? Why?
What are her God given rights to this behavior? Did her Coptic marriage liturgy authorize her behavior?
Are you married in a Coptic marriage liturgy? Do you think you would sin to behave against your husband as miracleseek’s wife has behaved?
What is the one thing that has kept you in the Coptic Church?
Did you learn your beliefs on feminism and men and women’s spiritual status from a Coptic priest or bishop?
At what Coptic Church? What is his name?
Did you learn any of your beliefs on feminism from Coptic women?
At what Coptic Church?
What are their names?
Was there any specific part of my post that was offensive to you? Did any of the Bible references that I made offend you?
Did you intend to respond to offend me?
I agree with you that the Holy Bible, our communities and our churches contain unlimited examples of unholy, sinning, and god hating men and women. I'm included. We are all sinners. Some ancient and some modern men and women know God’s commandments and seek repentence and forgiveness for their sins. Others may need to study and learn from God’s Holy Bible in order to better understand and acknowledge their sins against God’s commandments. Leading this study of God’s Word, in fullness and truth, is the duty of our bishops and priests. Where is this being done effectively in the Coptic Church, regarding the family and gender commandments? Orthodox family and gender tradition doesn’t need any demonic feminist criticism and adjustments. Evil, abusive husbands/fathers should seek and receive knowledge of God’s relevant commandments, given to the entire congregation, so that they will be encouraged by the entire community to repent and seek forgiveness for their sins against their wife and children. God’s gender and family commandments impose relevant family authorities and duties on men and husbands. Some of their harshness is provoked by feminist and clerical disrespect for and challenges to the husband’s God given authority and honor. Likewise, the entire congregation should be given knowledge of the duties imposed on the women and youth by God’s family and gender commandments. This knowledge to the entire community should help discourage the divisive demonic feminist propaganda that is currently overwhelming the youth and young married and unmarried Coptic women.
You didn’t explain your reference to St. Mary. Of course she seems to have complied with all of the family and gender commandments we are discussing. Do you believe St. Mary is a rebellious, demonic feminist who opposes God’s family and gender commandments? What Coptic bishop or priest taught this to you, or led you to believe this? What caused you to believe that feminism is not a bad thing? Do you believe that St. Mary believes this? What Bible verses confirm this? Who taught this belief to you?
As far as I can determine, all Coptic feminists, even the mildest, are demonic influenced in that they refuse to accept belief in and/or they oppose the general overwhelming patriarchal paradigm of all of God’s revealed Word, and especially God’s patriarchal family and gender commandments. I believe that all feminism is demonic inspired because it joins Satan in directly opposing the esential obedient/submissive nature of God’s purpose for creating woman as man’s helper and companion. I don’t believe God would intend to create a rebellious, disobedient helper. Certainly not to be rebellious against both her Creator and her God assigned master. Wouldn’t this be an oxymoran? St. John Chrysostom commented on this issue in this manner: “Woman (Eve) seized leadership once (in the Garden), and ruined all.” After this Fall, God told the woman: You desire to rule your husband, but he is to rule over you. Gen. 3:16b. I’m not going to be able to respond to your speculations and descriptions of St. Mary and Deborah the prophetess without notice of the Scripture verses you are refering to. St. Mary seems to have been our greatest woman theologian. She helped others, obeyed her husband, cared for her family in all circumstances and seems to have been silent and withdrawn in public. Wouldn’t all legitimate woman theologians follow God’s relevant commandments and St. Mary’s example and do likewise? Please name one who does.
1. Don't worry about my salvation and my eternal life. That's not your concern. You don't know what's dangerous for me or not. You don't know who I am. Don't judge me. I think my FOC has done a good job of keeping me on the right track to my salvation. 2. I do not seek to control anyone, I seek complete independence. It seems to me that you are the one who seeks to control every woman in your life. Don't make assumptions about me and other women. Because God ordained for men to be the head of family, you think you're entitled to more than what you're entitled to. Just think about it because I don't think you truly understand the meaning of it. 3. If you wish to know my views and my values, I've posted them in several threads, feel free to look. 4. I'm not going to sit here and read more offensive comments that may cause me more troubling thoughts than I can deal with...especially those of leaving the church. Your description of a wife sounds to me like a slave. Sorry, but I'm not spending the rest of my life in servitude to a man. 5. No, I am not married and it's precisely because of people like you that I'm not considering marriage right now. If the right guy comes around (nothing like the control freak of a man you've been describing)...it might be a possibility.
At any rate, you deal with your issue with women and misogynistic views and I shall deal with mine.
[edit]: WOW. I just caught this. St. Mary DID NOT have a husband bud.
Dear GODloves me, for my own edification, please: Is St. Joseph not considered as the husband of St. Mary in the Coptic Orthodox tradition? I have not read irishpilgrim's posts as they evoke a lot of disapproval from others, so maybe he had some other meaning of "husband" in mind. :-\
St Mary certainly had a husband. There is no possibility at all that in a conservative Jewish culture she would have co-habited with a man who was not her husband.
Indeed the Angel instructed St Joseph,
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
She was certainly the wife of St Joseph, even though they lived together without physical relations.
You keep on referring to God's family and gender commandments, and although you have provided a few examples, can you elaborate? Can you bring in all the passages from the bible you have in mind. Do not play "gospel stew" but bring in ALL relevant passages. We can all bring in points to justify our positions. . .
Secondly, I think you are too close to the issues of the divorce to provide an unbiased opinion. You make it seem as if all divorce is motivated by feminism. In fact, many of the cases are issues of a human dignity and safety (e.g. cases of adultery or physical abuse). In some cases divorce is triggered by men's "machoness."
You might say my mind has been corrupted by the feminist propaganda infiltrating the church, I think not.
I am curious - what does a male dominated marriage look like? How much power over a woman does the husband have? What decisions is he entitled to make on his own?
Can he tell her what to wear? Can he decide what school the kids go to? Can he take her paycheck? Can he tell her who to be friends with? Can he decide where they go out? Can he tell her what to cook? . . .
If you answer yes to these questions, then what makes this husband any different than miracleseek's wife? The gender?
If you answer no, then what exactly does a male dominated marriage entail?
dzheremi and Fr. Peter, The explanation I heard from my priest was that St. Mary certainly was not married to St. Joseph the Carpenter. This is one of the reasons the Jews sought to stone her at one point. Because she was betrothed to St. Joseph but she was pregnant. So they questioned her purity.
Fr. Peter, although those verses clearly say "wife," it's been explained to me that this is because she was betrothed to him so it makes her as good as his "wife." He can call her that. It's like when Our Lord Jesus Christ was told that his brothers were waiting outside for him. Those were not his real brothers, they were his cousins. This is how the Middle Eastern culture is. When I'm at my uncle's gas station and we're visiting him and my father is around, although they are first cousins, my uncle tells people who ask who he is that "he's my brother." That happens all the time.
Thank you for your prayers and efforts to rationalize a consensual explanation/summary of this discussion. All parties to every divorce receive deep lifelong spiritual injuries. For I hate divorce, says the Lord God of Israel, ... . Mal. 2:16. Here, my concern and indignation are for miracleseek and his innocent children. These are more lives of life long misery in the making. I’m just trying to share some of the divorce lessons that I learned, in similar circumstances, hopefully for their relief and benefit. Miracleseek, his children and the church can greatly benefit from his, and all other marriageable Coptic men, being as knowledgable as possible of their local divorce laws and customs. I have not seen nor heard of any contemporary Coptic church official’s ever being of any benefit to a Coptic husband and children who have been dragged into divorce court by a Coptic demonic feminist wife. Their involvement is usually a distraction and detrimental. In fact, I recently attended a divorce trial in Houston in which four Coptic demonic feminists, from his parish, appeared as false witnesses against the most ideal Coptic husband/father, that I know of or can imagine, and his three very innocent young boys. His new CPA demonic feminist wife had proudly calculated that she would receive $1000.00 per month for 16 years, just for the youngest boy. Please pray for the innocent children victims of the thousands, and growing, of demonic feminist caused divorces of orthodox families every year. My experience is that there are far fewer father caused divorces of orthodox, involving infants and youth, who also face the increased likelihood of life long spiritual and physical scars of divorce. But I don’t want to discuss this facet, and “who did what” situations because they aren’t relevant to miracleseek’s struggle.
There is also some reason to hope for the repentance of orthodox demonic feminists. They at least have the recently abandoned patriarchal gender and family traditions of their grandmothers and great grandmothers to return to. I’ve been told, by my FOC and others, primarily from upper Egypt, of their mothers and grandmothers who reverantly washed their husbands’ feet when they returned home from a hard day. I’m sure there are still many devoted, obedient Coptic and “old country” orthodox wives (probably not many PhDs, MDs, ThDs, etc.) who give great relief to their struggling husband and family by showing this type of God favored honor and support (as helper). See, Gen. 2:18.
Please also pray for Pope Shenouda and the other orthodox patriarchs and bishops who have been distracted from, ashamed of , and have abandoned the teaching of the traditional, tried and true, patriarchal scriptural model for holy, struggling marriages and families. I would understand that self-exposed targets of unrelenting feminist propaganda, insults, baiting and inuendos from demonic feminist officials and other members of the WCC and similar “christian” covens would seek temporary relief, but not by complete abandonment of God’s traditional, long observed, proven successful patriarchal gender and family commandments. It seems that perhaps Jesus’ parting admonitions don’t apply to these hierarchal ranks and demonic feminists: If you love me, you will keep my commandments. ... . If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me. John 14:15; 23-24. And, Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my words, they will keep yours also. ... . If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. John 15:20, 22.
I’d like to share another caution with you. The demonic method that is generally used to break down defenses of faith and obedience to God’s opposed commandments is generally referred to as Hegelian dialectic. Hegel was a heretic/athiest philosopher. Other athiests (and freudians) have made refinements to the method. Anyone who enters a polemical dialogue by trying to uncompromisingly defend God’s unpopular commandments (or any principled position) will face some version of this demonic technique (If you look, you will see several examples in this discussion). The sequence is; thesis, antithesis, consensus (or, original principle, agreed exception, new compromised principle); over and over until the intent of God’s word is destroyed, through bit by bit compromises to consensus that satisfies (temporarily) the unbeliever (Satan). Your parley on submission/love has, probably unintended, resemblances; wives should submit, husbands should love, both need to make big sacrifices, therefore both are equal sacrificers, i.e., no patriarchal ruler, no commandment. Just love and be happy. This is the great generator of Coptic demonic counselling/ marriage conference fees. Everybody is happy. Is God happy that the patriarchal spirit of His commandments and of His entire scriptural paradigm is subverted? I won’t presume to say so. For what final exam do we aim below passing and rely on wiggle and giggle post-exam negotiation? God is the creator, teacher and final judge. When has He negotiated on these terms? The Garden? The Flood?, Sodom? Nineveh? When? What was Jesus’ lesson in his teaching on Lazarus and the rich man? Do you recall the result of the rich man’s negotiation for his brothers? See, Lk. 16:19-31. Can we hope that Pope Shenouda’s, Bishop X’s, Y’s, Z’s, Mother Irini’s, Abuna’s, Feminist A’s, B’s, C’s, Nelly van Doorn-Harder’s negotiations for us will produce more “loving” results? I don’t believe these are the terms that Jesus ever gave us for passing His final exam. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Mt. 7:14. So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?” Acts 8:30-31. Thanks again, God bless you.
I get the feeling your wife is jealous. This comes about by insecurity. I think you will have to make her feel good about herself in a non-judgemental way.
You will have to accept the way she feels about something and reflect those feelings back to her. By saying - "you feel that ....." or "you sound ..." and fill in the rest by describing in your words how she feels.
It doesn't mean you are going to lose yourself. You are who you are. As GOD said to Moses, "I am Who I am." You have your territory. If some one came up and stood on your foot by accident most people would say sorry. So you have to define those boundries. You have to say how you feel when she comes into your territory. Be assertive in actions you decide on and take. She will get angry, but you have to get back your territory a little bit at a time. So start by protecting little parts at first and eventually she won't be insecure enough to have her parents there as well. Give her praise for the good things she does. This builds confidence.
May GOD protect you, strenghten you, and always be your guide.
I think this user, Joshua, has given the best advice here.
Now, this is what I think the problem is, from reading a bit about you, and your situation.
Your wife wants to punish you. She believes in God, but hates God for allowing her to get married. Which means that YOU may have done something wrong before you got married.
Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you? Did she feel that you were the only option available? Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors?
She obviously isn't in love with you - and if she was jealous, I'd be OK with that, but this isn't jealousy. This is punishment.
Its obvious.
In fact, I don't know your wife, but I'd say she's very religious indeed, and maybe she is even mad at God for allowing her to get married.
If this is case, you need to say, that way I can give you the best advice. Im 110% sure that what Im saying is the reason.
If you seduced your wife before marriage, and she felt obliged to marry you because of it, or if you had sexual experiences that she didn't, she could feel hatred against you.
What you are enduring is pure hatred. I don't believe she has a mental problem. She has a spiritual problem.
Maybe she depended on God for marrying someone, and she ended up with you (not to make it sound bad against you) - and now she hates God for allowing her marriage to be with you. It could be for ANY of these reasons.
Women, who get married between 21 to 30, MAY feel their life is over at the point of marriage, and they could genuinely blame you for that. ITS TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE, i know - but if she had a good social life, and knew many friends, and was not sure about you, but depended on God to close this door with you, and it didn't close (i.e. you ended up getting married), she could hate you and God.
Ultimately, if what I'm saying is true, there are a few things you can do to help the situation:
a) Tell her that she decided , with her free will to marry you. Part of being an adult is that we are responsible for the decisions we make, and we don't take it out on others if we feel that we've made the wrong ones.
b) That she is assuming that she'd have found better than you - she doesn't know. She may have found worse.
I am pretty sure that when she sees the sacrifices you have given to calm her insecurities and her hatred, she will love you more. She IS the same girl you fell in love with, but marriage, at the wrong time, for some people, can produce bad results.
I would not talk about divorce yet or think this. Not at all.
But try to understand what is upsetting her. This is NOT the girl you married dude. She is definately not herself.
hi Zoxsasi, Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you?
she had all the freedom... I suggested to break off the engagement couple of time...but she was determined to promise that it will work Did she feel that you were the only option available? I don;\'t think she felt that way...she had 2 previous engagement...but i don't think this is a problem for her Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors? she probably hates me..she actually asked for divorce now afterI have lost my job...and off course she feels her luxurious world is collapsing...her constant accustation that I don't love enough..leaving my family..my friends..and focusing on the well being of the children...getting abused to always lose weight...and I don't love enough...telling me what to eat and where to work and what to do..and all that is not enough...even when we go to church ..if it is ever allawd ..i will be taling care of both kids..so she can enjoy the holy masss...and I don't love enough,,
I have posted scriptural and patristic references and my personal experiences, on coptichymns.net, that are partially relevant to these posts. Some of the discussions were locked, but as I recall, the circumstances were not as you relate, but were rather directed against angry, disrespectful, irrational responses such as you now seem to be trying to provoke in this discussion. Your slander would be more credible if you had supplied links to the discussions you refer to. As I recall, those posts contained more factual materials related to the history of the development and goals of recent demonic feminist/goddess theology in the Catholic, Coptic and orthodox churches. Considerable material related to heretical orthodox support for ordination of demonic feminists to the priesthood, and beyond was presented. Signs of demonic feminism related to Mother Irini and her women’s monastery were also raised. I seem to recall that you similarly disagreed with my subject choice, factual accounts and supporting authorities in the same vague, unsupported, adhominem manner and tone as in this post. Post the links to your proofs, perhaps interested readers here would also be interested in the different, but relevant content of those discussions.
It would seem to be more credible, and fair, to readers of this discussion, if you would also provide quotations of and/or links to publications of Pope Shenouda and the other Coptic clerics you defend from my factual accounts of their support for and/or accommodation of anti-patriarchal/demonic feminism, particularly in regard to Coptic marriage and God’s gender and family commandments, to which I have openly invited discussion and contest. Bishop Youssef and other clerics have obtained advanced degrees in academic areas related to mercenary demonic atheistic freudian marriage counseling (exploitation). Gross receipts of official Coptic mercenary freudian counsellors have surely recently increased exponentially, comparable to the Coptic divorce rate. Where’s the meat? Where are their insightful publications of their new demonic marriage and family theology. Where is their new Shenouda Church Freudian Family Bible, so that new equal (demonic feminist) homogenized victims (wife? and husband?/ partners?) can have personal access to and personal (free) discussions of the rules of this new Coptic/orthodox sex game? Bishop Serapion has directed the World Capitol of Coptic demonic feminism and divorce for many years, probably witnessing more Coptic demonic feminist innovations, family/ pastoral takeovers and divorces than any Coptic bishop in history. Desparate husbands, like miracleseek, have sought his assistance to save their feminist wrecked marriages for years. Perhaps he has taken pearls of advice from international feminist scholar, Nelly van Doorn-Harder. Surely he has written some counsels that would be of assistance to miracleseek, these many years later. Bishop David’s demonic feminist manipulated parishes have been to the mountaintop, they have achieved a demonic feminist divorce provoked murder of one of their head deacons, during a parish meeting. Certainly an incident this serious has been sufficient to motivate his study and publication of remedial relevant scripture based guidelines, in order to take spiritual charge of this crisis. Aren’t the Coptic feminists, and the Coptic bishops’ secretive support for them, in light of the havoc they have fomented in this relatively short experiment the real embarrassment before the proven, ages old, gender and family principles and commandments of God’s Holy Bible and His Holy Orthodox Fathers? Maybe you can explain to us how the undefined status quo you defend is God given and God supported for Coptic liturgical marriages. If my understanding is sinful, I’ve been looking for correction for many years in many catholic and orthodox places. But, it is going to take more than your ridicule to show me that God’s scripture and the commentaries of the Holy Orthodox Fathers support and encourage the anti-patriarchal and feminist philosophies and theologies that you seem to support and encourage and that I consider to be traditionally viewed as demonic and therefore heretical. Somewhat relevant, but in admitted seeming self-serving exaggeration, your personal attack on me, rather than credibly addressing the theology I raise, seems to be a mini version of Pope Leo’s allies’ personal and physical attack on St. Dioscoros at Chalcedon, while ignoring his theological position.
Miracleseek came to this forum, as a last resort, in very desparate family circumstances that in large part, I believe, were caused by the demonic feminist experimental modern philosophical misadventure of the leadership of the Coptic Church. His circumstances are reasonably believeable in my experience. I have had secular experience with very similar feminist caused family destruction in a few thousand similar cases in the Houston/Dallas areas. I have had varying experience with about one similar Coptic case per year in the past 15 years in the Houston Coptic parishes. The patterns of dishonest, deceptive, abusive, immoral, hateful, etc. behavior of the Coptic demonic feminists/divorcers and that of the secular feminists/divorcers are very similar. Most of them sharpen their feminist mind, tongue and weapons at secular local women’s centers. The Coptic demonic feminists also get specialized Coptic demonic assistance from the seasoned demonic feminists (also catechized in feminist women’s centers and advanced feminist studies) in their Coptic parish women’s society. The secular feminists divorcers generally have more involvement with alcohol, drugs, sex, perversions, partying, etc., but their “dirty divorce tricks, fabrications, dishonesty and games” are reasonably identical. Some California Coptic feminist freedom suicide bombers are beginning to dabble in the named secular “higher” immoralities. Maybe the priests and bishops will be next to become just like the envied modern, trendy catholic model, who achieved virtual demonic feminist hegemony several decades ago.
Until you or someone else show me how it is sinful and/or displeasing to God, I believe that I should do whatever is within my ability to show other orthodox believers that demonic feminism and Coptic demonic feminist caused divorce are hated by God, and therefore should be hated by me. “You desire to rule your husband, but he is to rule over you.” Gen. 3:16b. “For I hate divorce, says the Lord the God of Israel, ... .” Mal. 2:16a.What more authoritative encouragement could there be? I believe that our patriarchal Holy Bible and the commentaries by our Holy Orthodox Fathers uncompromisingly support this uncontradicted premise. You have a keyboard, show us the contrary.
If you will review my posts, I hope you will be able to see (through your demonic feminist/unmentioned personal agenda) blinders that, because of the disastrous results of the possibility or fact of being married to an orthodox demonic feminist, I counselled miracleseek and all orthodox men to become familiar with and educated in their local civil divorce laws and customs. This is for the purpose of being prepared to defend some vestages of their sacred rights to exercise as much God given authority as possible over their children if and when their demonic feminist wife files for civil divorce (this is the usual situation after she has cleaned out as many family assets as possible) or, if she manipulates the marriage to such a disadvantage that her abused husband cannot tolerate her demonic feminist actions any longer. In the latest Houston Coptic divorce, at the last possible time (when civil divorce was the only practical protection for the victim husband and children), I believe that Bishop Youssef told the desparate Coptic husband/ father to file an utterly unprepared civil divorce. This saved a worst disaster, but left the husband and children in very precarious and expensive circumstances, especially because four Coptic demonic feminists made sworn false testimony against the husband at her divorce trial. I am also aware of a California divorce wherein the husband’s FOC, again “after the wild mare and family business were out of the barn” told him to file for civil divorce when the Coptic demonic feminist wife was intentionally distributing assets of the family business to her family and making malicious false sexual assault claims against franchisor representatives. These modern Coptic officials should, at least, invest equal time in studying demonic feminist inhuman behavior. As I have tried to explain earlier, pre-divorce advise from experienced fellow divorce victims is as/more necessary than that of mercenary divorce lawyers and freudian counsellors because their most profitable “professional” interest is a vicious divorce that requires three lawyers and three freudians (husband’s, wife’s, and children’s). What kind of personal interest do you have to imply this approach? What makes you, like the priest and the Levite, infer that the man laying on the Jericho Road was faking injury? See, Luke 10:30-37 (good samaritan). What makes you believe that the details of miracleseek’s plea to all of us is incredible? Would you doubt similar details from a tear soaked demonic feminist wife? No DEMONIC FEMINIST would! Take stock, fellow readers.
Yes, in the current threat and fact of rampant orthodox family destroying orthodox demonic feminist philosophy, psychology, theology, divorce, youth education, sermon censors, propaganda, etc., I believe that, until God’s patriarchal teaching and spirit has returned (hopefully not in 900 years, or more) to the Coptic and orthodox hierarchy and clergy, every orthodox diocese and orthodox parish board of ordained deacons should include a practical and spiritual sensitive surviving, former or current victim of the Coptic and/or orthodox demonic feminist spirit and/or rage; to observe, advise, and help the priest sweep the churches of these demons and guard against their return. Wouldn’t such an intent be blessed by our eternal patriarchal Father God, His Son and Holy Spirit, just as was taught by the Son and Holy Spirit to The Apostles, and passed on in their own writing to His Church by SS. Peter and Paul? What do you believe is the secret/ occult understanding of the sacrament of marriage, if we are not to believe its clear, literal bases in the Holy Bible, in the teachings of the Holy Orthodox Fathers and in the traditional (un-feminized) Coptic/Orthodox Marriage Liturgy? We are now in the beginning of the potential blessings of a nice long Apostles’ Fast. Another appropriate opportunity to return to the traditional patriarchal marriage model that SS Peter and Paul left for all of us, and that successfully served all orthodox and so called Christian churches for the first approx. 1950 years of their phenominal world growth from a few Jewish radicals’ families, until this current demonic feminist/ freudian apostacy.
Comments
welcome to the forum.
Thanks for your message, can you please provide me the information required=
Much appericated
Thanks for your continuous support...I have a favor to ask..I heard Dr. Nabil Baky is a great marriage counselor...I tried to reach him in 3 yrs ago I was successful...but I couldn't nowadays...it would be great if somebody has his phone number,
Thanks again
miracleseek,
I read through this very important post on 5/25/2011 and joined the forum in order to provide my personal experiences, studies, comments and insights to your lamentable demonic feminism controlled marriage. You are God blessed to be able to perceive and state the unplesant experiences of your wife’s relevant demented illusions and actions so clearly in relation to God’s general Orthodox Biblical gender and family commandments. Sadly, during the last 5 disappointing years of my life in the newly feminized RC church and in the following 30 years of orthodox practice including the last 15 years as Coptic Orthodox, I have unsuccessfully diligently searched for an Orthodox patriarch, bishop, priest, teacher, author, or counsellor who proudly, openly understands and espouses these eternal gender and family commandments. Many/most/all of our orthodox officials choose to defer to the demonic demands/desires of their rebellious feminist priests’ wives and daughters, nuns, mothers, family, “friends”, prominent/bold parishioners/medical scientists and/or political popularity rather than acknowledge/ teach the patriarchal Word of God, which is “out of modern popular fashion”. So, my experience indicates that you are unfortunately seeking “official” confirmation of gender and family spiritual truth from the spiritually blind, deaf and dumb in this area of family life and theology. Most of these “officials” will refer you to mercenary atheistic freudian psychological remedies to your wholely spiritual problems. I believe, however, that you now are seeking the spiritual answers you need in the only available reasonable resource venue- Orthodox Christian spiritual discussion forums. Maybe eventually you’ll be able to post an edited and updated version of your marriage circumstances on other Orthodox forums to encourage more discussion and interest in this crucial ministry of God’s patriarchal creation order and that of His princely, Apostles SS. Peter and Paul-during their fast and feast. I believe a special forum topic should be strictly dedicated to Orthodox discussions of God’s Biblical gender and family codes and their relevance today, on some Orthodox forum site.
[quote author=miracleseek link=topic=11418.msg137744#msg137744 date=1305139424]
Hello,
I came here as I am helpless...Nobody can help me...nobody has time for me...anyways I got married to a controlling wife who have told me before the marriage that "you are not to do anything without me..you can't meet friends without me" she was referring to my male firends...It sounded ridiculous...the father of confession thought that that was anybody will do till they get married and then it is gonna change after the wedding..
we got married...the problem got magnified....Now I am not allowed to make phone calls to friends at work....i started arguing and wiht no change of heart...
The control has grown further and further and thr trophy wife (yes ..a princess indeed) choosing a luxurious house...car...disconnecting me from my firends completely (mission accomplished)...disconnecting me from my dad (just because she can't agree with his life style)..Any thing that she pleases she does...If you dare to argue...you are in for a night of craziness..ranging from confinning you in a room ..talking down to you...pushing you at times...taking my wallet car keys...stopping me from going to my professional license exam ...jus the fear I can meet my brother...the list goes on and on...controlling what i eat...where to work...confescating my cell phone...check the logs daily
All these things and I am pleadind with all fathers of confessions...all say pray and be patient...and nobody cann't convince her of anything...
We were selfish (yes selfish) enough to have 2 wondeful kids...I cater to these kids with all my power to take care of them from A to Z...as she can't take care of them (the princess she is)...waking up in the middle of the night ...feeding...changing...playing...driving to daycare and pickup...the kids are attached to me...I try to take them to church every suday...but I get stopped by the wife who wants to confine everyone at home...she says "you don't know God...so don't go pretend"...she lives up to her statement ..."you won't have a social life with me"...even going to church...taking the wallet and hiding the keys
The matters are running out of hand..as I am being abused in front of the kids...being called names..." If you don't like it leave"...plus the fact that I got forced into having her parents at home...
It is getting worse by the day...I am on the firge of banckrupcy as I have to choose a job with a locaton that pleases her...away from my family and my (now) ex friends....I need serious help ..as I tried to get the police to help me in the beining of my marraiage and I don't want to do it again as It will destroy her career..
please help
If your confession father before marriage had respect for and obedience to God’s gender and family commandments, he would have warned both of you of her open feminist rebellion against your authority and against God’s order for marriage, clearly instructed both of you of the relevant gender commandments, and refused to marry you into this openly apostate marriage relationship. Your marriage ceremony under this rebellious, apostate relationship was an obvious mockery of God’s family laws and of the Coptic Marriage Liturgy. See, Malachi 2.1-17 (Priest/God witnessed marriages should comply with all of God’s relevant commandments). If you love Me, obey My commandments. Jn. 14.15. Sadly, I believe that many/most U.S. Orthodox marriages, in the last 30-40 years, include some of the same defects and experience a resulting increasing incompatability/ divorce rate, to the inevitable ultimate lifelong spiritual, mental and physical detriment of the spouses, their families and their children - and all to the delight of Satan and His heretical feminist guerillas. All of God’s patriarchal gender and family commandments are based on His first relevant gender and family order commandments at the time of His creation of the first man and woman. I will make him a HELPER fit for him. Gen. 2.18. You desire to rule your husband, but he is to rule over you. Gen. 3.16b. God’s Word repeats and clarifies this patriarchal principle throughout the Old Testament Scriptures. Jesus and His Apostles, through the Holy Spirit, continue to repeat and clarify God’s same gender and family order commandments in the New Testament Scriptures (but sadly, no longer through the churches using His name). For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, His body, and is Himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in EVERYTHING to their husbands. Eph. 5.23,24. And, Likewise (as obedient Christian slaves are submissive even to abusive masters) you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the Word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, when they see your reverent and chaste behavior. 1 Pet. 3.1,2.
Your wife seems to be a very well trained and dedicated demonic feminist terrorist suicide bomber. She has apparently decided to seek her promised Coptic (by Pope Shenouda; Bishops Mousa, Angaelos, Youssef, Serapion, Rofael, etc.; Priests/authors Tadros Malaty, Athanasius Iskander, etc.) female equality in marriage by blowing up her own marriage and family. She has imposed most of the abuses and slanders, that feminists typically use to criticize men, on you and your children. She has usurped for herself, all of the family authorities that God has given exclusively to husbands. Father Matta Meskeen would be impressed by her feminist evolution. Sadly, this is not a rare behavior by the last 2-3 generations of arrogant rebellious “modern/ professional” Coptic (also, Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic and secular) women. I personally know of eleven such Coptic feminist women caused divorces in Houston/ Dallas, involving 18 children.Some involved California raised Coptic women, where, of course, the divorce culture is highest, even involving a Coptic priest’s son and feminist daughter. Shouldn’t we also expect to eventually receive all of the perversions that accompanied the Protestant and Catholic acquiescense to “modern”/ WCC feminists’ demands.
The special blessing of these Coptic/Orthodox discussion forums is the special spiritual insight we all receive from being together is Christ’s name, with Him in our midst. See, Mt. 18:15-20. Eventually God will send us a teacher, like prophet Ezra, to correct our accumulated “modern” spiritual gender and family compromises and heresies back to within compliance with God’s Biblical gender and family codes. A Scriptural example is God’s correction of about nine hundred years of Israel’s prohibited marriages to evil influenced foreign women. God corrected this disobedience through Ezra. God’s solution was painful and not unlike the shame of returning to the spirit of complete obedience and submission, to their husbands, of rebellious misled modern feminist (foreign) orthodox women and the return of undisciplined modern children to obedience to their parents. When Israel entered the Promised Land, God had prohibited the men of Israel from marrying the evil influenced local foreign women. Some of the people of Israel disobeyed God’s prohibition for about nine hundred years, including their years of suffering under many evil rulers and their repentence in exile in Babylon. When the people of Judah deeply repented from their disobedience while they were returning to Jerusalem, from exile, Ezra established the agreed procedures whereby these prohibited foreign women and their children, were all put away from their husbands and fathers, the repentant priests and men of Israel, in order to comply with God’s original prohibition. See, Ezra 9.1-10.44. A demonstration in these passages of the general patriarchal paradigm of all aspects of God’s creation and His church is the deference God shows to the authority of the foreign husbands of the daughters of Israel. Although the transgressions seem similar, God did not require that these marriages and families be separated. Presumably, the repentant men of Israel were also prohibited from further association with their daughters and sisters who had become “foreigners” by having been given in marriage to foreign men. This adamic first deference to the husband, head of every family was also demonstrated when Jesus told the Samaritan woman to, “Go call your husband and come here" before He would teach His message to her. John 7.16. In a Christ-like spirit, shouldn’t abuna send the complaining wife to call her husband and come with him, before discussing her selfish disloyal confession of his sins? Otherwise, who receives the absolution? Her absent husband? Her unconfessed betrayal of her husband? Abune's apostacy?
I definitely believe you should seriously consider a civil divorce. Your wife (and her parents) are obviously intent to disobey God’s marriage commandments and she invites you to leave the marriage, or submit to her apostate leadership. But, your final decision should be an informed decision. If it becomes your wife’s decision to divorce, you may not have time and strength to become informed. As a teacher, through her education and years of girl talk in the teachers’ lounges, with discussions with many seasoned divorce war strategy and tactics veterans and philosophers, she is probably fully informed and planned for her divorce attack and defense. In order to make a reasonable decision in this matter it is necessary that you obtain some personal knowledge of your local divorce laws and customs. There are four practical means for you to obtain this knowledge that I can think of now. This entire process will benefit from your preparation of a written summary of the marriage problems you are experiencing. An edited version of all of your statements and responses here would be a very good start. Copy and paste all of your statements here into a single document. Edit and re-edit this document to the best of your ability. Have copies of this written statement to give to persons you are seeking to help you. You must edit the statement as you proceed to improve its clarity. With regret, I am not going to tell you to rely upon advice from your priest or bishop because, in every incident that I am aware of the use of this natural procedure, it has been detrimental, inciting, and obstructive of the fathers’ and his childrens’ best interests. They did not defer to the fathers’ primary authority and instead, if they took any interest at all, sought to take over the fathers’ authority and sponsored/ supported the rebellious interests of the rebellious feminist wife. So, you should, simultaneously:
1. Search on the internet for and contact local, regional and national divorced fathers’ support groups. These groups usually contain many concerned, generous, experienced divorce wars veterans; including some divorced male and female lawyers, who understand the importance for your children that their father obtain all possible rights to have authority and participate as fully as possible in children’s lives during and after divorce.
2. Seek out and privately introduce yourself, your brother, your father and any good friends (if they are willing) to Coptic/Orthodox men/ fathers who have themselves been victims of rebellious feminist wives and have endured the full divorce process of preparation, litigation/settlement and post divorce adjustments. Most will have been hurt so deeply that they won’t want to even discuss the experience. Many have left the church in disgust for its opposition to their God given family authority. If you respectfully develop more familiarity with them and let them know your circumstances, most will think about your circumstances and become inspired to offer you all the help that they can. If they have experienced a good - or bad - attorney, they will help you to better understand this lottery.
3. Hundreds of fathers’ self-help divorce books have been written. Internet reviews will help you pick out the books that you are attracted to. The libraries are full of these books of various divorce philosophies and procedures. Approach this phase like you would approach any secular academic/intellectual interest. I’m sure some of these subjects are audio/ video recorded. This may benefit you. I think that at this time, this subject is more important to you and your children than any secular academic subject/major you have ever pursued, or even considered. There are also many books written to help you to more effectively relate to and support your children through the entire divorce and post divorce processes. These are also helpful if you are able to stay married. I’m sure you’ll have some fine lines to walk in this subject area. It appears that your wife may be brainwashed in the anti-patriarchal, atheistic freudian education philosophies, which are reflected in many of the “self-help” books. It appears that she is practicing the physical and thought control techniques of these philosophies on you. Faith, scripture and prayer will help you walk in this new-age minefield.
4. I also suggest that you begin to have, free or low cost, initial interviews with as many local divorce attorneys, male and female, as you can. Give them a copy of your written summary statement and ask them what procedure they recommend and how much it will cost. As you probably know, attorneys can be peculiar and challenging people to do business with. Lying and arrogant misrepresentation are usually tools of their trade. It is usually easier and more profitable for them to lie to their own client. There are a few exceptions and personal referrals are usually the best way to find these exceptions from someone with long term familiarity with an attorney, but don’t expect to find these rare pearls. If your employer has a regular attorney, you may ask him to suggest a divorce attorney for you to interview. However, an attorney, good or bad, is usually absolutely necessary to obtain any benefits for your children in divorce court. This is a major reason that your self-education is of first importance. There are also very good self-help books, by attorneys, that are very helpful to become able to work with and control your attorney. It could be very important to you to combine divorce and bankruptcy. Cover this in all of your attorney interviews. An experienced attorney would have to analyze this issue. I have not seen good legal results by any of the few Arabic speaking attorneys I have observed. Many of the victim Coptic husbands that I have mentioned made a first bad choice to pick an Arabic speaking attorney that they felt would sympathize with their culture. Bad reasoning, bad results. You should seek an attorney that looks like and can relate effectively with the local divorce judge’s culture. Make time to personally observe actual divorce court cases. This will feel uncomfortable at first, but it is to your children’s best interest for you to overcome this discomfort in order to help your own case, which will last at least, until your youngest child is 18 years old.
The next issue is her tendency to unlawful and abusive behavior. You didn’t describe the bases of the police involvement that you briefly mentioned. Her assaults, confinements, thefts and threats are unlawful actions that merit police protections. My concern is that she is setting you up to be arrested on actual or fabricated domestic violence charges. You have to be very concerned for this type of problem. Some states prohibit any unsupervised contact with your children if you have domestic violence charges or convictions. In addition, these problems involve defense attorney costs, etc. If she provokes you to anger or fabricates a threat or assault charge to police, some jurisdictions, will not leave both parties at the home and will require arrest and jail of one of the parties. The presumption would be to leave her with the children and take you to jail, no questions asked. This is very dangerous and expensive. I suggest that if she ever makes any threat or move toward calling police, you should leave immediately (don’t take the children unless the threat to them is very serious, this could lead to more charges and trauma for the children) and not return until you are certain she has changed her mind or tactics. It is always wise to have a friend or family member present to witness these risky occasions. I’m sure she is well educated and trained in this area through her teacher education and association with other divorced and feminist teachers and school security persons. On the other hand, a domestic violence or abuse conviction against her should bolster and economize your custody case, which you should seriously consider. Many of these violent Coptic ladies are dish, frying pan, knife, purse, shoe, fist, fingernail, etc. throwers. If these incidents leave any marks of violence on you or the children, you should consider immediately making a police report for her domestic violence/ abuse. You should also seek to make audio and/or video recording of as many of her fits and rages as possible. It may be cultural that most of the violent Coptic feminists seem to be meek and dignified to abuna and in public, but are loud, lazy, selfish, raging she-devils to their husband and family in the privacy of their home and/or car. In three of the Houston divorces that I mentioned above, the Coptic “ladies” were physically abusive and then fabricated police abuse charges against their husbands. One physically abusive Coptic “bride” cut off her husband’s sexual relations and then made rape and adultery charges against him. Her priest assisted another Coptic “lady” in fabricating and threatening assault and abuse charges against her husband. His diocesan hierarch, 2 priests, leaders of 2 parish feminist/ ladies societies and Dr. Yousry colluded with his feminist wife to deprive his three young children of all contact with their father for 18 months. Childrens Protective Services later gave him custody of the children because of “sweetie’s abuses of them. There are probably exceptions, but in every divorce case that I know of (many hundreds) the divorce experience damaged/ perverted the victim children’s parental/ family bonds with both parents, with the grandparents, and with other relatives. A large, long term Swedish study determined increased rates of anti-social behavior and addictions in boys and girls who were raised in single parent “homes.” Natural trusts of all involved/ concerned are obviously weakened.
The concerned innocence and disbelief of some of the sympathetic responders is admirable. You can easily spot the ones who have been propagandized by the mercenary, demonic Coptic freudian marriage/ divorce conferences. They imply, let us reason together under Satan’s agenda and with his demonic disciples! Other responders, thankfully, don’t have a clue. I was no different when I was served, right after arriving at work, with an undiscussed, completely surprise divorce petition and order not to have any contact with my young children. Two hours earlier, I had left my wife resting in our marital bed while I fed the early rising children some breakfast, as usual. I had reported too much income on the earlier income tax filing that year, so my Boston Irish Catholic wife and her clandestine attorney decided to kill the goose that was laying the golden eggs. The gander lives, but the eggs all became rotten/ fool’s gold. In this regard, it could be advantageous for you to go through divorce/custody while un-/ under- employed. The corrupt divorce courts love to hang onto “big bucks” divorces, but won’t waste much time on poor clients.
As the Holy Scriptures demonstrate, all of we men are sinners, some worse than others. God knew this when he gave us authority over our wives and daughters. I guess He could have given women authority over us. Eve’s results couldn’t have been worse when she secretly took charge of the affairs of all humanity and creation, in their original, simpler circumstances. See, Gen. 3.1-24. We also have many more examples of similarly demonic/ feminist women throughout the Holy Bible.
In addition to families, no functioning entity can survive challenging circumstances or dangers under the control of two equally powerful, competing leaders. We don’t have two Popes, yet; two bishops; two Presidents, cars and ships with two steering wheels and drivers, etc. Equal authority (as all of the current Coptic family literature and Freudian counselors espouse) =no authority. This chaos shows in every challenging incident and in the increasing Coptic divorce and feminism rate.
Because demonic, atheistic Freudian philosophy is being imposed so vigorously on the Coptic and most other Western Orthodox jurisdictions, I recommend that all tradition devoted Orthodox Christians view all four (4) parts of the award winning BBC documentary history of Freudian psychiatry/ counselling (from Freud to Bill Clinton/ Tony Blair) that is entitled, “The Century of the Self.” I find it best by googling: <bbc video the century of the self parts 1-4>. I am in wonder! How can any christian trust church leaders who systematically turn their troubled families over to such a, publically self-admitted (in this industry sponsored documentary), insane mercenary industry? Please tell me, I’m dumb-struck/ dumbfounded. For a closer historical look at Freud’s cocaine inspired bases for his demonic psychiatric “genius” which is being imposed deceptively and secretly, as “pre-marital and family counseling,” on all U.S. Coptic clergy and families, check out the historical essay - Freud and Cocaine - at http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/cocaine/. Several seasoned M.D.’s have told me that psychiatrists and psychologists have the lowest academic qualifications and the highest rates of drug abuse and suicide in the medical industry.
Very thoughtful and insightful post!
But how do you understand this passage from St. Paul?: (emphasis mine)
It seems to me he is creating a radical equality in marriage. Such a statement should not be taken lightly considering the time he wrote this.
Also, what exactly are you referring to when you say the clergy are encouraging "demonic feminists"? Although my arabic is limited, whenever I have heard sermons regarding family issues the speaker always reverts to saying women should keep in their roles and follow the men and the men must follow Christ and make the correct decisions. . .
It's because of people like you that I have sought to leave Coptic Orthodoxy as a whole, save for one thing that has kept me in it. Men and women are equal in the sight of God, even in marriage; man is head of the woman, that doesn't make them unequal. We are not Muslims. We are not men's property. WE ARE EQUAL. We will be judged the same for our sins before God. We're not living in sexist Jewish times dude, get with the times!
Your post was very offensive. True, there are demonic females in the Bible but there are also VERY DEMONIC MALES as well. Let's not forget that. And what about St. Mary? Deborah the PROPHETESS. Feminism is not a bad thing...only when it goes too far and from the way you stated things, sadly, you would push me overboard to be more feminist than I already am and to possibly leave the church altogether. What doesn't make sense to me is that if women were not equal with men, why the heck would God even bother creating women and bother saving them? FYI, St. Mary is above all the saints, male and female...explain that one buddy...
I don't think irishpilgrim had any intention of degrading women but was attacking feminism in particular, but maybe I misread his post, he can speak for himself.
If I may ask you a few questions, I will:
In a marriage, does the woman share equal authority with the man?
Also what do you mean by equal? A father is equal to his son (assume he is old enough to vote) in terms of social, political, and civil rights - does that mean he has no authority over him? A wife is equal to her husband in many ways - does that mean he has no authority over her?
Do you think the bible supports a patriarchal structure in which the head male of the family is in charge?
I am just trying to see where you stand because often this issue is not talked about and women who do not understand the topic feel marginalized and leave the church.
i think irish pilgrim is still feeling a lot of pain from his divorce, that's why he came across so angry.
it is true that wives should submit to their husbands.
however, no one should leave the church over this, especially as no-one is forcing you to get married!
also husbands should love the wives as Christ loved the church (dying for her!) so that is no less sacrifice.
in a marriage, both people need to make really big sacrifices. that's how it works.
as for the original poster, plus irish pilgrim and all those feeling the pain of a stressful marriage or divorce, may God guide you and heal the pain.
God is similarly separated from us when we sin, let us make it our priority to stay close to Him at all times and not push away our Lord who loves us so much.
Hello Miracleseek,
I get the feeling your wife is jealous. This comes about by insecurity. I think you will have to make her feel good about herself in a non-judgemental way.
You will have to accept the way she feels about something and reflect those feelings back to her. By saying - "you feel that ....." or "you sound ..." and fill in the rest by describing in your words how she feels.
It doesn't mean you are going to lose yourself. You are who you are. As GOD said to Moses, "I am Who I am." You have your territory. If some one came up and stood on your foot by accident most people would say sorry. So you have to define those boundries. You have to say how you feel when she comes into your territory. Be assertive in actions you decide on and take. She will get angry, but you have to get back your territory a little bit at a time. So start by protecting little parts at first and eventually she won't be insecure enough to have her parents there as well. Give her praise for the good things she does. This builds confidence.
May GOD protect you, strenghten you, and always be your guide.
I think this user, Joshua, has given the best advice here.
Now, this is what I think the problem is, from reading a bit about you, and your situation.
Your wife wants to punish you. She believes in God, but hates God for allowing her to get married.
Which means that YOU may have done something wrong before you got married.
Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you?
Did she feel that you were the only option available?
Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors?
She obviously isn't in love with you - and if she was jealous, I'd be OK with that, but this isn't jealousy. This is punishment.
Its obvious.
In fact, I don't know your wife, but I'd say she's very religious indeed, and maybe she is even mad at God for allowing her to get married.
If this is case, you need to say, that way I can give you the best advice. Im 110% sure that what Im saying is the reason.
If you seduced your wife before marriage, and she felt obliged to marry you because of it, or if you had sexual experiences that she didn't, she could feel hatred against you.
What you are enduring is pure hatred. I don't believe she has a mental problem. She has a spiritual problem.
Maybe she depended on God for marrying someone, and she ended up with you (not to make it sound bad against you) - and now she hates God for allowing her marriage to be with you. It could be for ANY of these reasons.
Women, who get married between 21 to 30, MAY feel their life is over at the point of marriage, and they could genuinely blame you for that. ITS TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE, i know - but if she had a good social life, and knew many friends, and was not sure about you, but depended on God to close this door with you, and it didn't close (i.e. you ended up getting married), she could hate you and God.
Ultimately, if what I'm saying is true, there are a few things you can do to help the situation:
a) Tell her that she decided , with her free will to marry you. Part of being an adult is that we are responsible for the decisions we make, and we don't take it out on others if we feel that we've made the wrong ones.
b) That she is assuming that she'd have found better than you - she doesn't know. She may have found worse.
I am pretty sure that when she sees the sacrifices you have given to calm her insecurities and her hatred, she will love you more. She IS the same girl you fell in love with, but marriage, at the wrong time, for some people, can produce bad results.
I would not talk about divorce yet or think this. Not at all.
But try to understand what is upsetting her. This is NOT the girl you married dude. She is definately not herself.
You went through this ridiculuous rant on coptichymns.net a year ago and I closed the forum due to your offensive comments on the Coptic Church, Pope Shenodua, and the clergy. Do not come to a Coptic forum and insult Coptic bishops and ironically call it anti-patriarchal feminist agenda. I hope the administrators here keep a close eye on your comments. It's obvious you are transferring your hatred of feminism and divorce to miracleseek. You don't know his situation. You only have his version of the story and yet you are counselling him on how to get a divorce and join some sort of a Coptic divorced-men-fallen-victim-to-feminist-induced-Coptic-clergy society. It's obvious you never will understand the sacrament of marriage and how to resolve marital problems without condemning everyone who disagrees with your fundamentalist, pseudo-patriarchial, pseudo-utopic standards.
Unworthy1,
Thank you for your precise, objective response. Pardon me for not using the Forum’s very helpful facility for including quotations in the body of posts. My O’Geek level of incompetence is showing. I lost a day and considerable text trying to use this feature while composing my last post. I’ll figure it out later, in the mean time please bear with my humble best efforts.
St. John Chrysostom’s Homily XIX on First Corinthians gives us a detailed explanation of the purpose and nuances of St. Paul’s typically rich text in 1Cor. 7:2-7. Chrysostom explains that St. Paul constructed this narrow exception to the general scriptural patriarchal husband’s perogatives over his wife in order to prevent a situation where the husband exercised his general authority by withholding relations with his wife (perhaps even to pray more fervently) and thereby caused her to seek adultery in sexual lust from Satanic temptations. To be amazed by St. Paul’s eternal apostolic spiritual counsel and St. Chrysostom’s mystical understanding and explanation of the nuances of St. Paul’s God inspired insight and intent, go to the cited NPNF text and read (in neo-Shakesperean English) Chrysostom’s loyal patriarchal full discussion of this passage. To make an authoritative response to your question, I have to defer to acceptance of St. Chrysostom’s understanding and explanation of the passage you quoted. The crux of Chrysostom’s rebuttal of your (seemingly unintentional demonic feminism inspired) innocent supposition is quoted below:
Elsewhere I grant He gives to the husband abundant precedence, both in the New Testament, and the Old saying, (LXX. Gen. iii. 16.) “Thy turning shall be towards thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” Paul doth so too by making a distinction thus, and writing, (Ephes. v. 25, 33.) “Husbands, love your wives; and let the wife see that she reverence her husband.” But in this place we hear no more of greater and less, but it is one and the same right. Now why is this? Because his speech was about chastity. “In all other things,” says he, “let the husband have the prerogative; but not so where the question is about chastity.” “The husband hath no power over his own body, neither the wife.” There is great equality of honor, and no prerogative.
Chrysostom, 1Cor. 7:2-6, Homily XIX, 1:12npnf 105, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xx.html
It may be helpful to point out a very important caution to you and other interested readers. Many tireless, highly skilled and intelligent, demonically inspired feminist theologians (some call themselves thealogians) are now attacking the few remaining loyal elements of the once larger and more homogenous one, holy, catholic (universal), apostolic, orthodox church of God. Their primary intellectual tactics are to re-translate, to re-interpret, and to paraphrase the Holy Bible and the writings of the Fathers of the Orthodox Church into a feminist favoring/ tolerant form. As your response witnessed, every word will be turned any possible way and every means will be perverted to achieve a demonic/feminist bias or to discredit or confuse every patriarchal or anti-feminist point of view. I have found self-serving misrepresentations, omissions, or embellishments in all Catholic and feminist “theological” works. These feminists have even made their self-serving translations of excerpts of St. Chrysostom’s writings to make it appear that he opposed St. Paul’s general patriarchal intent in all of Paul's gender and family teachings. My rule of thumb is to ignore or independently confirm every modern (especially after about 1960) theological/ scriptural interpretation/conclusion that states or implies an anti-patriarchal or pro-feminist premise. This is an especially difficult problem for relative novices in precise English language critical theological study, as the major/least biased English translation was done at Oxford before 1900. The style of English prose is challenging to modern readers. In general, if it isn’t patriarchal, it can’t be true to the Holy Bible. There are, of course, exceptions which are all explainable. Feminists, like most protestants, tend to base an argument on one or two verses, out of their entire relevant context. In its relevant context, it is probably impossible to find an anti-patriarchal phrase in the entire Holy Bible. It is the Word of God, our Father, and Jesus Christ, His Son.
Not to pick on you, but your seeming points of view are small clear examples of the seductive, all-consuming, ravaging power that demonic (dishonest/ deceptive/ divisive) feminist/ goddess theology has already seized in all of the so-called christian churches, even in the leadership of our beloved Coptic Church (the persecuted monastic enlightener of the enlighteners of then persecuted, now drunken, uncivilized, sodomized, Ireland). Yes, as you infer, the God hating feminist/goddess theologians have created and are now sowing demonic cultural scriptural exegesis. Under this heresy, God’s Word in the Holy Bible can’t be eternal, but must be intellectually and culturally temporal/ “evolutionary”/ developing/ manipulatable/ remoldable (by their deceptive, demonic God hating agenda). Not patriarchal/ decisive/ uncompromisable, but more modern/ reasonable/ platonic/ homogenous/ feminist/ goddess-like/ “lovable”/ all-tolerant/ new-age/ inexhaustable mother-earth, etc.
The demonic clerical encouragements that discourage me are mostly subtle, unexplained, unwritten, oral misrepresentations; of the clear, traditional Orthodox patriarchal paradigm of God’s, the Apostles’ and the Holy Fathers’ commandments and counsel; that tickle the ears of, the otherwise bold, load, raging, gossiping, uncovered Coptic feminists. For a few of the more overt examples that I have witnessed or documented: Pope Shenouda’s unexplained joking slander, in English, in Nashville, that the money earned by a married Coptic woman’s outside employment is “her money, she can spend it as she wants, ” outside of her husband’s God given authority. The unexplained heretical statement in many English translations of the Coptic Marriage Liturgy that “... husband and wife/man and woman are equal... .” The unexplained deletion of all reference to the text and commentary of 1 Peter 3:1-6 in a popular English translation of Fr. Tadros Malaty’s commentary on the First Epistle of St. Peter. Bishop Angaelos’ vague, deceptive, unexplained “waffling” lecture on the feminist Coptic Church. The unexplained, seemingly uncanonical, ordination of women on, seemingly, all U.S. Coptic parish Boards of Deacons. Bishop Serapion’s seeming public commemoration of prominent Protestant/Islamic/Coptic feminist scholar/ author/ provocator, Nelly van Doorn-Harder. Prominently featuring Nelly on the Home page of Coptic Hymns.net. The seemingly equal votes of men and women in U.S. Coptic church elections. The establishment of feminist led and feminism promoting “Ladies Societies” in every U.S. Coptic parish that I am aware of. The distribution of Fr. Athanasius Iskander’s feminist biased article entitled “Creation” that misrepresents that Gen. 1:27; “Means that both male and female were created equal having the same God-given authority, ... .” p.1-2. Bishop Mousa has created and widely distributed similarly biased misrepresentations of the traditional Orthodox understanding of God’s gender and family codes in the Holy Bible and by the Orthodox Fathers to Coptic youth. Sadly, the list goes on, with no policy of public/written contradictions, in English, that I am aware of. In stead, there seems to be an iron fisted official code of heretical silence. Pope Shenouda and his bishops are rumored to jealously harshly enforce their own patriarchal authority against their captive clergy and their desparately dependent families in order to compel a united betrayal of the God given gender and family authority of all of the father heads and well intended holy Coptic wives and daughters in struggling Coptic immigrant families. It is unimaginable to me that all U.S. Coptic priests, especially those burdened with rebellious feminist wives of their own, personally agree with this inevitably fatal capitulation to feminist/ goddess betrayal of God’s created patriarchal gender and family order.
To me, the most pathetic victims of this seemingly new demonic heresy in the (still overtly) orthodox churches are the obviously insecure, unnaturally/unculturally segregated, frantically raging, misled, unevangelized, traditionally marginalized wives, mothers and daughters who are being demonically spiritually oppressed, not only by the world, but even by the officials and falsely esteemed members of their own (christian?) churches. Eve was not able to resist this same demonic deception to disobedience and rebellion, while tempted only by Satan. Our wives, mothers, grandmothers, sisters, daughters, relatives and neighbors (paternal and distaff) now have the same Satanic temptation, and in addition are surrounded by a much more confusing and oppressive army of spiritual, intellectual and human distractors. It took Israel’s religious and family leaders about 900 years of chaotic disciplinary suffering to effectively attempt to return to God’s gender and family codes under their repentance and Ezra’s leadership. See, Ezra 9:1-10:44. I experienced, in my Boston Irish Catholic wife, the rapid maturation (after 10 years of seemingly very compatible traditional marriage life, career growth and family worship in the traditional patriarchal Catholic church) of essentially the same destructive spirit of overt rebellious feminist rage that miracleseek’s wife had developed (even before marriage) in the currently neo-feminist/ freudian nurturing Coptic church. At the time of my wife’s change of heart, faith, and spousal behavior, the “new” Catholic church was seeking ways to accomodate the newly bold, loud, raging rebellion of a new generation of professionally and theologically educated, increasingly atheistic/ freudian/ homo(perverse)sexual/ feminist nuns, and women social and physical scientists. The traditionally patriarchial/pastoral Catholic priests were replaced or re-educated in the modern “rational” psycho/social sciences. Many thousands of priests and nuns left their vocations and faith. Eventually a compromising/methodical “synthesis” was surrendered which left the complete range Catholic education and seminary policy and practice largely in the control of feminist/homosexual coalitions, bishops and clergy. My beloved ancestral Ireland has followed the U.S. Catholic (church?) down to the same apostacy. My main concerns are the obvious indications that the new Coptic feminists/freudians and feminist/freudian accomodating leadership of the Coptic Church are secretly, hypocritically anxious to join this same modern spirit. This spirit has enabled the U.S. Catholic church to fall to the same immorality (divorce, abortion, STD, teen pregnancy, drug use, etc.) rates as the general U.S. population. Acheiving this level of Coptic immorality would probably greatly increase the GDP/financial status and standard of livings of members of the Coptic psycho/medical industry. I can’t think of any other seeming beneficiaries. For a recent update in this “christian” saga, consider these remaining taints of Irish conscience: http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/103226/20110120/sexual-abuse-pope-priests.htm . Even I will admit that Coptic Saints have a better tradition record of Christian faith and courage, in suffering, than the Irish. Here is our hope.
Of course, I am an outsider and have no blood ties (that I know of) to the Coptic traditions, but I understand, from discussions with interested seasoned Coptic priests and husbands that this entire heretical feminist rebellion in the Coptic Church took mature life on Pope Shenouda’s and the current Synod’s watch. Hopefully they will review the Book of Malachi, especially Mal. 2:1-17, and make appropriate obedient, God pleasing corrections. Judgment is inevitable for all of us.
My only Arabic is a few liturgical phrases. I have heard that there is some measured patriarchal preaching, in Arabic on Coptic TV. I have also heard that bold, raging, screaming Coptic feminists occassionally interupt Pope Shenouda’s talks. I don’t know if he obediently changed the subject that the shrews objected to. I have witnessed these shrill, raging rants, in church, by leading Houston Coptic ladies, when my FOC tried to read any of these Biblical gender and family commandment verses during parish bible studies. Abuna’s announced study of these commandments were never able to be completed. I have heard that Bishop Youssef’s bible study, in Dallas, related to these commandments, has been similarly terminated. I have watched, without understanding, some Coptic TV liturgical services. At some, I noticed that large numbers of Coptic women were obviously uncovered during the services. I presumed that this was some type of pre-arranged sign of international Coptic feminist rebellious solidarity. Nelly van Doorn-Harder has noted that the feminist rebellion within St. Mercurios women’s monastery is now in the planned “resistance in obedience” phase. Recently I have heard several accounts of Coptic priests, in Egypt, assisting feminist wives’ rebellions against their families. Some incidents have made the feminist inspired public/ opposition press, which wraps each incident in a demonic feminist propaganda version.
St. Paul gives us the remedy to this heresy, yes even in light of his culture. Bid the older women likewise to be reverent in their behavior, not to be slanderers or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind, and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited. Titus 2:3-5. In my long time Catholic experience, and limited Coptic experience I have never known of the heirarch to support the preparation for and practice of this vital Apostolic women’s ministry. I have seen and heard of far too much promotion of many demonic feminist contrary objectives, such as encouraging and justifying rebellious divorce, in both churches.
Thank you for your reply. It seems you have been following what is happening closely. Whether what you say is true or not, I do not know. A lot what you are talking about is new to me. Whether I am naive or you are exaggerating is unclear.
But in due time all will be exposed. Matthew 13:30
If you have time, I would appreciate it if you chimed in on a similar issue I raised about female leadership in the early church: http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,11375.0.html
The professor teaching this course was definitely anti-patriarchal authority and pro-feminism.
On a side note - wasn't the issue in the book of Ezra one of purity, not gender and family roles?
(please correct my error).
All of the recent catholic and orthodox heresies and frauds that I have understood were done in secret, with minimum collusion, under a cloud of pompous, self-righteous, threatening hypocracy. Like on these forums, if you ask for disclosure, you will be threatened with all kinds unholy consequences. Look at the unholy family hypocracy in Ezra, clerically witnessed apostate marriages for about 900 years of God's tireless righteous discipline.
I think I have all the feminist fish I can fry for awhile in this discussion. The English used to criticize the Irish as being inextinguishable because we bred (in most thanks to the faithful, selfless, loyal care of Irish women) like rabbits. The demonic feminists and their theological frauds seem to breed and sting like mosquitos, or fire ants. Just look at the volume of their "gussied up" heretical trash in any bookstore or library. What shameless, baseless demonic distractions. In a few volumes of the true (not the feminist reconstructions) teachings of most of our Holy Orthodox Fathers, we have had the fulness of the Christian faith for over 1000 years. Take a look at some feminist theology, it is all speculative relativism, the best of it is outdated before it is published. Where will these ideas be in 100 years? Watch the rats run the treadmill, the mosquitos rise like a cloud after a flood.
My thought regarding Ezra is the similarity between their, presumably properly witnessed prohibited marriages to apostate foreign women and Coptic hypocritical liturgical marriages to apostate open or un-/mis-catechized disobedient/rebellious wives, like in miracleseek's, and too many more Coptic cases.
Hello irishpilgrim,
I'm not sure of the forgiveness in the things you've said, but gauging from all the adjectives you've used to descibe some women as a problem, then I think forgiveness is far from your mind. Do you think miracleseek is sharing the same hatred as you? He sounds a lot more tolerant, and has shown it.
Thank you for responding to my post. I’ll try to make all of my comments in the spirit of trying to understand, not necessarily agree with, your point of view, which I believe is dangerous to your current and eternal spiritual life. I have tried to justify, based on God’s Holy Bible and the writings of our Holy Orthodox Fathers, as much as I am able, my beliefs and my reasons for these beliefs. I think we could all benefit from an explanation of why feminism is more important to you and to some other Coptic women (and men) than respect for and obedience to the traditional understanding of God’s gender and family commandments. My experience is that U.S. Coptic men and women are being deprived of a very important part of their necessary spiritual knowledge, especially in these post-modern, new-age times, by the Coptic Church’s systemic failure to persistently teach its youth and adult members a thorough traditional knowledge of God’s eternal gender and family commandments and their purpose, for the support of the spiritual, family and community lives of the local and universal church. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me. Hosea 4:6.
You do not clearly explain your conclusions, so I will ask several questions in order that we can clearly understand your positions. If you try to fully explain your beliefs, with supporting bible verses, I hope we’ll all reach a better understanding and many agreements.
Your response was strongly feminist and seemingly immature, somewhat similar to the threatening tantrums that miracleseek describes as his wife’s. Are you going to leave the church if I don’t accept feminism as being God approved. Sorry, it is God, not you, that I must satisfy. Is this the tactic you use to control your family, abuna, your teachers or employers, etc? Are you married? Any prospects? This must be frustrating to you and to those you seek to control. Your response is generally adhominem, without any authoritative references. You even argue against positions that I did not state and do not believe.
In my post, I tried to the best of my limited faith, ability and experience to address miracleseek’s and his children’s desparate pathetic family situation in its modern Western Coptic milieu, which are seemingly caused by having been deceived to marry a seemingly unbelieving and/or uncatechized, rebellious, disobedient, feminist Coptic wife in a witnessed Coptic marriage liturgy. I tried to support the illegitimacy of his marriage and of his wife’s misbehavior with scriptural references to provisions in God’s holy gender and family codes which invest the husband with sole final authority over his wife and family. Because the Coptic clergy is unable to, refuses to even teach, or denies these holy gender and family commandments to its unmarried youth before marriage and to its families after marriage, there has developed a growing custom of feminist, rebellious, disobedient Coptic wives who, against their witnessed Coptic marriage vows, threaten or seek civil divorce in order to obtain child support payments from, control over, or independence from their husband. Because of the severe legal and civil cultural bias against men remaining in any semblance of authority of their children through divorce, I think it is very important that unmarried and married Coptic men become sensitive to and familiar with the civil divorce law and custom in their local divorce court jurisdiction. Feminist wives have many sources of free and low cost pre-divorce counselling, usually including divorced feminist members of their parish Coptic ladies society. In the U.S., all relevant divorce laws are statutes of their residence state. In order to increase their profits from divorce, all mercenary divorce attorneys’ (and mercenary forensic family councellors’) associations have financed manipulations and complications of the local divorce laws. For attorneys’/ counsellors’ benefit, most divorce cases are manipulated to obtain higher payments from the major family income producer, which is usually the husband. In this case, children are usually immediately given to the wife in order to keep the divorce going and to keep the husband paying to obtain some right to participate in his children’s lives. If the wife is righteous and gives the husband all rights to the children that he thinks is best, or if the divorce court gives the children’s care to their father, there is no leverage to extort high attorneys’ fees from the father’s higher income. If the wife faces losing the children and their support payments, she is not likely to generate a profitable case for the attorneys. If the wife has the higher income, or a substantial estate, the divorce court and lawyers/counsellors will often work the same scam against the wealthy wife. If both husband and wife are wealthy, both will be manipulated and oppressed, using the children, to extort the largest attorney/ counsellor fee jackpot. Attorneys’ fees for these divorces are capable of bankrupting a family business. Killing the goose that is laying golden eggs for the family and supported parish. Some Coptic girls have come from Egypt with a seemingly secret rebellious feminist planned option to have some children, then to manipulate and/or divorce their hard working, duped husband. They learn from divorced Coptic movie stars, too. This deeply angers most conscientious betrayed, duped husbands. It seems that East Coast Coptic church officials provoked a divorced father to murder a church official at a church function. This situation seems to be spiritually closely related to God’s family code provision: Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. Eph. 6:4. St. Chrysostom explained that this prohibited provocation was one which caused the child to strike its father; which merited a death sentence for the child.
But, to me, the most pathetic parties to these divorces are the innocent pawned children and the unrepentant self-condemned opportunist feminist wife. The child support (which supported the lifetime incompleteness and misery of the children) will end. The once desired, phony, false vowing bride will have to add camouflage and extra stuffing, or scars, to prevent inevitable signs of the withering and wrinkling of her soul and body.
Does her secret heretical intent to evade/ compromise her marriage vows, void her marriage and qualify her as a prostitute/ concubine?
Are the approving/ encouraging/ acquiescent church, family, feminist supporters her pimps/ solicitors/ enablers?
How will she exercise her equal right to salvation while carrying unrepented (to her husband, children, both families, God, and to all others who were injured by her divorcing) sins of disobeying her marriage vows and God’s commandment to OBEY AND HONOR her husband in EVERYTHING? Eph.5:24.
Won’t she also have to repent to husbands and children of other feminists whom she has encouraged and caused to sin by divorcing their families?
What Coptic priest or bishop taught you that God has different marriage commandments for wives of different times and personal beliefs (Jewish, Muslim, Orthodox)?
If the Coptic leadership and their demonic feminist/freudian allies are depending on their rebellions against God’s family and gender commandments and their duped husbands to establish a spiritual advantage against the traditionally generally modest and obedient Muslim and Orthodox Jewish (and Amish) women, they may be marching together into the junkyard of history.
Try to take off your feminist blinders and look at the reality. Make a comparison to God’s family and gender commandments, any way you choose, with a general sample of Muslim women compared to a similar sample of your demonic Coptic feminists. What’s the measure? Don’t just scream “objectivize” and cover your ears, close your eyes and turn your head. How do you compare in public modesty? in liturgical modesty? in traditional obedience? in family unity? in faith loyalty? What do you consider to be demonic feminism’s strong points? Weaknesses? He also told them a parable, “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? ... .” Luke 6:39. I agree that Coptic men seem to be generally more righteous and God pleasing than Muslim men. But, it seems that Muslim men have done a better job of leading their women to Godly righteousness. Their leadership style seems to be God blessed and effective after the example of King Ahasuerus’ (Xerxes’) decisive discipline of Queen Vashti for her scandalous disobedience. See, Esther 1:1-2:4.
What other persons caused you to seek to leave the Coptic Church?
What were their actions that caused you to seek to leave?
Did these other persons also believe that disobedient feminism is a sin against God’s patriarchal gender and family commandments?
What other church?
What attracted you to this other church?
How much experience have you had in this other church?
What is the one thing that has kept you in the Coptic Church?
What is your understanding of and definitions of EQUAL as you use it in your response?
If you believe that men and women are equal in the sight of God, please explain, what does your statement, that in marriage man is head of the woman, mean?
If the man has God given authority to be head, what equal authority does the wife have? What Bible verses explain these authorities?
Did you learn these definitions and concepts of marriage in a Coptic Church? From whom?
You have seemingly admitted to being, and expressed arguments that indicate that you are proud to be a feminist.
What beliefs and commitments do you have which define your beliefs as a feminist?
Did my advice to miracleseek, to be prepared for a surprise divorce by his feminist wife anger you against me?
Do you approve of miracleseek’s wife’s behavior? Why?
What are her God given rights to this behavior? Did her Coptic marriage liturgy authorize her behavior?
Are you married in a Coptic marriage liturgy? Do you think you would sin to behave against your husband as miracleseek’s wife has behaved?
What is the one thing that has kept you in the Coptic Church?
Did you learn your beliefs on feminism and men and women’s spiritual status from a Coptic priest or bishop?
At what Coptic Church? What is his name?
Did you learn any of your beliefs on feminism from Coptic women?
At what Coptic Church?
What are their names?
Was there any specific part of my post that was offensive to you? Did any of the Bible references that I made offend you?
Did you intend to respond to offend me?
I agree with you that the Holy Bible, our communities and our churches contain unlimited examples of unholy, sinning, and god hating men and women. I'm included. We are all sinners. Some ancient and some modern men and women know God’s commandments and seek repentence and forgiveness for their sins. Others may need to study and learn from God’s Holy Bible in order to better understand and acknowledge their sins against God’s commandments. Leading this study of God’s Word, in fullness and truth, is the duty of our bishops and priests. Where is this being done effectively in the Coptic Church, regarding the family and gender commandments? Orthodox family and gender tradition doesn’t need any demonic feminist criticism and adjustments. Evil, abusive husbands/fathers should seek and receive knowledge of God’s relevant commandments, given to the entire congregation, so that they will be encouraged by the entire community to repent and seek forgiveness for their sins against their wife and children. God’s gender and family commandments impose relevant family authorities and duties on men and husbands. Some of their harshness is provoked by feminist and clerical disrespect for and challenges to the husband’s God given authority and honor. Likewise, the entire congregation should be given knowledge of the duties imposed on the women and youth by God’s family and gender commandments. This knowledge to the entire community should help discourage the divisive demonic feminist propaganda that is currently overwhelming the youth and young married and unmarried Coptic women.
You didn’t explain your reference to St. Mary. Of course she seems to have complied with all of the family and gender commandments we are discussing. Do you believe St. Mary is a rebellious, demonic feminist who opposes God’s family and gender commandments? What Coptic bishop or priest taught this to you, or led you to believe this? What caused you to believe that feminism is not a bad thing? Do you believe that St. Mary believes this? What Bible verses confirm this? Who taught this belief to you?
As far as I can determine, all Coptic feminists, even the mildest, are demonic influenced in that they refuse to accept belief in and/or they oppose the general overwhelming patriarchal paradigm of all of God’s revealed Word, and especially God’s patriarchal family and gender commandments. I believe that all feminism is demonic inspired because it joins Satan in directly opposing the esential obedient/submissive nature of God’s purpose for creating woman as man’s helper and companion. I don’t believe God would intend to create a rebellious, disobedient helper. Certainly not to be rebellious against both her Creator and her God assigned master. Wouldn’t this be an oxymoran? St. John Chrysostom commented on this issue in this manner: “Woman (Eve) seized leadership once (in the Garden), and ruined all.” After this Fall, God told the woman: You desire to rule your husband, but he is to rule over you. Gen. 3:16b. I’m not going to be able to respond to your speculations and descriptions of St. Mary and Deborah the prophetess without notice of the Scripture verses you are refering to. St. Mary seems to have been our greatest woman theologian. She helped others, obeyed her husband, cared for her family in all circumstances and seems to have been silent and withdrawn in public. Wouldn’t all legitimate woman theologians follow God’s relevant commandments and St. Mary’s example and do likewise? Please name one who does.
2. I do not seek to control anyone, I seek complete independence. It seems to me that you are the one who seeks to control every woman in your life. Don't make assumptions about me and other women. Because God ordained for men to be the head of family, you think you're entitled to more than what you're entitled to. Just think about it because I don't think you truly understand the meaning of it.
3. If you wish to know my views and my values, I've posted them in several threads, feel free to look.
4. I'm not going to sit here and read more offensive comments that may cause me more troubling thoughts than I can deal with...especially those of leaving the church. Your description of a wife sounds to me like a slave. Sorry, but I'm not spending the rest of my life in servitude to a man.
5. No, I am not married and it's precisely because of people like you that I'm not considering marriage right now. If the right guy comes around (nothing like the control freak of a man you've been describing)...it might be a possibility.
At any rate, you deal with your issue with women and misogynistic views and I shall deal with mine.
[edit]: WOW. I just caught this. St. Mary DID NOT have a husband bud.
Indeed the Angel instructed St Joseph,
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
She was certainly the wife of St Joseph, even though they lived together without physical relations.
Father Peter
You keep on referring to God's family and gender commandments, and although you have provided a few examples, can you elaborate? Can you bring in all the passages from the bible you have in mind. Do not play "gospel stew" but bring in ALL relevant passages. We can all bring in points to justify our positions. . .
Secondly, I think you are too close to the issues of the divorce to provide an unbiased opinion. You make it seem as if all divorce is motivated by feminism. In fact, many of the cases are issues of a human dignity and safety (e.g. cases of adultery or physical abuse). In some cases divorce is triggered by men's "machoness."
You might say my mind has been corrupted by the feminist propaganda infiltrating the church, I think not.
I am curious - what does a male dominated marriage look like? How much power over a woman does the husband have? What decisions is he entitled to make on his own?
Can he tell her what to wear?
Can he decide what school the kids go to?
Can he take her paycheck?
Can he tell her who to be friends with?
Can he decide where they go out?
Can he tell her what to cook?
. . .
If you answer yes to these questions, then what makes this husband any different than miracleseek's wife? The gender?
If you answer no, then what exactly does a male dominated marriage entail?
The explanation I heard from my priest was that St. Mary certainly was not married to St. Joseph the Carpenter. This is one of the reasons the Jews sought to stone her at one point. Because she was betrothed to St. Joseph but she was pregnant. So they questioned her purity.
Fr. Peter, although those verses clearly say "wife," it's been explained to me that this is because she was betrothed to him so it makes her as good as his "wife." He can call her that. It's like when Our Lord Jesus Christ was told that his brothers were waiting outside for him. Those were not his real brothers, they were his cousins. This is how the Middle Eastern culture is. When I'm at my uncle's gas station and we're visiting him and my father is around, although they are first cousins, my uncle tells people who ask who he is that "he's my brother." That happens all the time.
This is how it was explained to me.
In either case she was clearly in a formal relationship with Joseph such that she was wife and he was husband, and she was mother and he was father.
Thank you for your prayers and efforts to rationalize a consensual explanation/summary of this discussion. All parties to every divorce receive deep lifelong spiritual injuries. For I hate divorce, says the Lord God of Israel, ... . Mal. 2:16. Here, my concern and indignation are for miracleseek and his innocent children. These are more lives of life long misery in the making. I’m just trying to share some of the divorce lessons that I learned, in similar circumstances, hopefully for their relief and benefit. Miracleseek, his children and the church can greatly benefit from his, and all other marriageable Coptic men, being as knowledgable as possible of their local divorce laws and customs. I have not seen nor heard of any contemporary Coptic church official’s ever being of any benefit to a Coptic husband and children who have been dragged into divorce court by a Coptic demonic feminist wife. Their involvement is usually a distraction and detrimental. In fact, I recently attended a divorce trial in Houston in which four Coptic demonic feminists, from his parish, appeared as false witnesses against the most ideal Coptic husband/father, that I know of or can imagine, and his three very innocent young boys. His new CPA demonic feminist wife had proudly calculated that she would receive $1000.00 per month for 16 years, just for the youngest boy. Please pray for the innocent children victims of the thousands, and growing, of demonic feminist caused divorces of orthodox families every year. My experience is that there are far fewer father caused divorces of orthodox, involving infants and youth, who also face the increased likelihood of life long spiritual and physical scars of divorce. But I don’t want to discuss this facet, and “who did what” situations because they aren’t relevant to miracleseek’s struggle.
There is also some reason to hope for the repentance of orthodox demonic feminists. They at least have the recently abandoned patriarchal gender and family traditions of their grandmothers and great grandmothers to return to. I’ve been told, by my FOC and others, primarily from upper Egypt, of their mothers and grandmothers who reverantly washed their husbands’ feet when they returned home from a hard day. I’m sure there are still many devoted, obedient Coptic and “old country” orthodox wives (probably not many PhDs, MDs, ThDs, etc.) who give great relief to their struggling husband and family by showing this type of God favored honor and support (as helper). See, Gen. 2:18.
Please also pray for Pope Shenouda and the other orthodox patriarchs and bishops who have been distracted from, ashamed of , and have abandoned the teaching of the traditional, tried and true, patriarchal scriptural model for holy, struggling marriages and families. I would understand that self-exposed targets of unrelenting feminist propaganda, insults, baiting and inuendos from demonic feminist officials and other members of the WCC and similar “christian” covens would seek temporary relief, but not by complete abandonment of God’s traditional, long observed, proven successful patriarchal gender and family commandments. It seems that perhaps Jesus’ parting admonitions don’t apply to these hierarchal ranks and demonic feminists: If you love me, you will keep my commandments. ... . If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me. John 14:15; 23-24. And, Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my words, they will keep yours also. ... . If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. John 15:20, 22.
I’d like to share another caution with you. The demonic method that is generally used to break down defenses of faith and obedience to God’s opposed commandments is generally referred to as Hegelian dialectic. Hegel was a heretic/athiest philosopher. Other athiests (and freudians) have made refinements to the method. Anyone who enters a polemical dialogue by trying to uncompromisingly defend God’s unpopular commandments (or any principled position) will face some version of this demonic technique (If you look, you will see several examples in this discussion). The sequence is; thesis, antithesis, consensus (or, original principle, agreed exception, new compromised principle); over and over until the intent of God’s word is destroyed, through bit by bit compromises to consensus that satisfies (temporarily) the unbeliever (Satan). Your parley on submission/love has, probably unintended, resemblances; wives should submit, husbands should love, both need to make big sacrifices, therefore both are equal sacrificers, i.e., no patriarchal ruler, no commandment. Just love and be happy. This is the great generator of Coptic demonic counselling/ marriage conference fees. Everybody is happy. Is God happy that the patriarchal spirit of His commandments and of His entire scriptural paradigm is subverted? I won’t presume to say so. For what final exam do we aim below passing and rely on wiggle and giggle post-exam negotiation? God is the creator, teacher and final judge. When has He negotiated on these terms? The Garden? The Flood?, Sodom? Nineveh? When? What was Jesus’ lesson in his teaching on Lazarus and the rich man? Do you recall the result of the rich man’s negotiation for his brothers? See, Lk. 16:19-31. Can we hope that Pope Shenouda’s, Bishop X’s, Y’s, Z’s, Mother Irini’s, Abuna’s, Feminist A’s, B’s, C’s, Nelly van Doorn-Harder’s negotiations for us will produce more “loving” results? I don’t believe these are the terms that Jesus ever gave us for passing His final exam. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Mt. 7:14. So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?” Acts 8:30-31. Thanks again, God bless you.
[quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=11418.msg137776#msg137776 date=1305194286]
Hello Miracleseek,
I get the feeling your wife is jealous. This comes about by insecurity. I think you will have to make her feel good about herself in a non-judgemental way.
You will have to accept the way she feels about something and reflect those feelings back to her. By saying - "you feel that ....." or "you sound ..." and fill in the rest by describing in your words how she feels.
It doesn't mean you are going to lose yourself. You are who you are. As GOD said to Moses, "I am Who I am." You have your territory. If some one came up and stood on your foot by accident most people would say sorry. So you have to define those boundries. You have to say how you feel when she comes into your territory. Be assertive in actions you decide on and take. She will get angry, but you have to get back your territory a little bit at a time. So start by protecting little parts at first and eventually she won't be insecure enough to have her parents there as well. Give her praise for the good things she does. This builds confidence.
May GOD protect you, strenghten you, and always be your guide.
I think this user, Joshua, has given the best advice here.
Now, this is what I think the problem is, from reading a bit about you, and your situation.
Your wife wants to punish you. She believes in God, but hates God for allowing her to get married.
Which means that YOU may have done something wrong before you got married.
Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you?
Did she feel that you were the only option available?
Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors?
She obviously isn't in love with you - and if she was jealous, I'd be OK with that, but this isn't jealousy. This is punishment.
Its obvious.
In fact, I don't know your wife, but I'd say she's very religious indeed, and maybe she is even mad at God for allowing her to get married.
If this is case, you need to say, that way I can give you the best advice. Im 110% sure that what Im saying is the reason.
If you seduced your wife before marriage, and she felt obliged to marry you because of it, or if you had sexual experiences that she didn't, she could feel hatred against you.
What you are enduring is pure hatred. I don't believe she has a mental problem. She has a spiritual problem.
Maybe she depended on God for marrying someone, and she ended up with you (not to make it sound bad against you) - and now she hates God for allowing her marriage to be with you. It could be for ANY of these reasons.
Women, who get married between 21 to 30, MAY feel their life is over at the point of marriage, and they could genuinely blame you for that. ITS TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE, i know - but if she had a good social life, and knew many friends, and was not sure about you, but depended on God to close this door with you, and it didn't close (i.e. you ended up getting married), she could hate you and God.
Ultimately, if what I'm saying is true, there are a few things you can do to help the situation:
a) Tell her that she decided , with her free will to marry you. Part of being an adult is that we are responsible for the decisions we make, and we don't take it out on others if we feel that we've made the wrong ones.
b) That she is assuming that she'd have found better than you - she doesn't know. She may have found worse.
I am pretty sure that when she sees the sacrifices you have given to calm her insecurities and her hatred, she will love you more. She IS the same girl you fell in love with, but marriage, at the wrong time, for some people, can produce bad results.
I would not talk about divorce yet or think this. Not at all.
But try to understand what is upsetting her. This is NOT the girl you married dude. She is definately not herself.
hi Zoxsasi,
Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you?
she had all the freedom... I suggested to break off the engagement couple of time...but she was determined to promise that it will work
Did she feel that you were the only option available?
I don;\'t think she felt that way...she had 2 previous engagement...but i don't think this is a problem for her
Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors?
she probably hates me..she actually asked for divorce now afterI have lost my job...and off course she feels her luxurious world is collapsing...her constant accustation that I don't love enough..leaving my family..my friends..and focusing on the well being of the children...getting abused to always lose weight...and I don't love enough...telling me what to eat and where to work and what to do..and all that is not enough...even when we go to church ..if it is ever allawd ..i will be taling care of both kids..so she can enjoy the holy masss...and I don't love enough,,
I have posted scriptural and patristic references and my personal experiences, on coptichymns.net, that are partially relevant to these posts. Some of the discussions were locked, but as I recall, the circumstances were not as you relate, but were rather directed against angry, disrespectful, irrational responses such as you now seem to be trying to provoke in this discussion. Your slander would be more credible if you had supplied links to the discussions you refer to. As I recall, those posts contained more factual materials related to the history of the development and goals of recent demonic feminist/goddess theology in the Catholic, Coptic and orthodox churches. Considerable material related to heretical orthodox support for ordination of demonic feminists to the priesthood, and beyond was presented. Signs of demonic feminism related to Mother Irini and her women’s monastery were also raised. I seem to recall that you similarly disagreed with my subject choice, factual accounts and supporting authorities in the same vague, unsupported, adhominem manner and tone as in this post. Post the links to your proofs, perhaps interested readers here would also be interested in the different, but relevant content of those discussions.
It would seem to be more credible, and fair, to readers of this discussion, if you would also provide quotations of and/or links to publications of Pope Shenouda and the other Coptic clerics you defend from my factual accounts of their support for and/or accommodation of anti-patriarchal/demonic feminism, particularly in regard to Coptic marriage and God’s gender and family commandments, to which I have openly invited discussion and contest. Bishop Youssef and other clerics have obtained advanced degrees in academic areas related to mercenary demonic atheistic freudian marriage counseling (exploitation). Gross receipts of official Coptic mercenary freudian counsellors have surely recently increased exponentially, comparable to the Coptic divorce rate. Where’s the meat? Where are their insightful publications of their new demonic marriage and family theology. Where is their new Shenouda Church Freudian Family Bible, so that new equal (demonic feminist) homogenized victims (wife? and husband?/ partners?) can have personal access to and personal (free) discussions of the rules of this new Coptic/orthodox sex game? Bishop Serapion has directed the World Capitol of Coptic demonic feminism and divorce for many years, probably witnessing more Coptic demonic feminist innovations, family/ pastoral takeovers and divorces than any Coptic bishop in history. Desparate husbands, like miracleseek, have sought his assistance to save their feminist wrecked marriages for years. Perhaps he has taken pearls of advice from international feminist scholar, Nelly van Doorn-Harder. Surely he has written some counsels that would be of assistance to miracleseek, these many years later. Bishop David’s demonic feminist manipulated parishes have been to the mountaintop, they have achieved a demonic feminist divorce provoked murder of one of their head deacons, during a parish meeting. Certainly an incident this serious has been sufficient to motivate his study and publication of remedial relevant scripture based guidelines, in order to take spiritual charge of this crisis. Aren’t the Coptic feminists, and the Coptic bishops’ secretive support for them, in light of the havoc they have fomented in this relatively short experiment the real embarrassment before the proven, ages old, gender and family principles and commandments of God’s Holy Bible and His Holy Orthodox Fathers? Maybe you can explain to us how the undefined status quo you defend is God given and God supported for Coptic liturgical marriages. If my understanding is sinful, I’ve been looking for correction for many years in many catholic and orthodox places. But, it is going to take more than your ridicule to show me that God’s scripture and the commentaries of the Holy Orthodox Fathers support and encourage the anti-patriarchal and feminist philosophies and theologies that you seem to support and encourage and that I consider to be traditionally viewed as demonic and therefore heretical. Somewhat relevant, but in admitted seeming self-serving exaggeration, your personal attack on me, rather than credibly addressing the theology I raise, seems to be a mini version of Pope Leo’s allies’ personal and physical attack on St. Dioscoros at Chalcedon, while ignoring his theological position.
Miracleseek came to this forum, as a last resort, in very desparate family circumstances that in large part, I believe, were caused by the demonic feminist experimental modern philosophical misadventure of the leadership of the Coptic Church. His circumstances are reasonably believeable in my experience. I have had secular experience with very similar feminist caused family destruction in a few thousand similar cases in the Houston/Dallas areas. I have had varying experience with about one similar Coptic case per year in the past 15 years in the Houston Coptic parishes. The patterns of dishonest, deceptive, abusive, immoral, hateful, etc. behavior of the Coptic demonic feminists/divorcers and that of the secular feminists/divorcers are very similar. Most of them sharpen their feminist mind, tongue and weapons at secular local women’s centers. The Coptic demonic feminists also get specialized Coptic demonic assistance from the seasoned demonic feminists (also catechized in feminist women’s centers and advanced feminist studies) in their Coptic parish women’s society. The secular feminists divorcers generally have more involvement with alcohol, drugs, sex, perversions, partying, etc., but their “dirty divorce tricks, fabrications, dishonesty and games” are reasonably identical. Some California Coptic feminist freedom suicide bombers are beginning to dabble in the named secular “higher” immoralities. Maybe the priests and bishops will be next to become just like the envied modern, trendy catholic model, who achieved virtual demonic feminist hegemony several decades ago.
Until you or someone else show me how it is sinful and/or displeasing to God, I believe that I should do whatever is within my ability to show other orthodox believers that demonic feminism and Coptic demonic feminist caused divorce are hated by God, and therefore should be hated by me. “You desire to rule your husband, but he is to rule over you.” Gen. 3:16b. “For I hate divorce, says the Lord the God of Israel, ... .” Mal. 2:16a.What more authoritative encouragement could there be? I believe that our patriarchal Holy Bible and the commentaries by our Holy Orthodox Fathers uncompromisingly support this uncontradicted premise. You have a keyboard, show us the contrary.
If you will review my posts, I hope you will be able to see (through your demonic feminist/unmentioned personal agenda) blinders that, because of the disastrous results of the possibility or fact of being married to an orthodox demonic feminist, I counselled miracleseek and all orthodox men to become familiar with and educated in their local civil divorce laws and customs. This is for the purpose of being prepared to defend some vestages of their sacred rights to exercise as much God given authority as possible over their children if and when their demonic feminist wife files for civil divorce (this is the usual situation after she has cleaned out as many family assets as possible) or, if she manipulates the marriage to such a disadvantage that her abused husband cannot tolerate her demonic feminist actions any longer. In the latest Houston Coptic divorce, at the last possible time (when civil divorce was the only practical protection for the victim husband and children), I believe that Bishop Youssef told the desparate Coptic husband/ father to file an utterly unprepared civil divorce. This saved a worst disaster, but left the husband and children in very precarious and expensive circumstances, especially because four Coptic demonic feminists made sworn false testimony against the husband at her divorce trial. I am also aware of a California divorce wherein the husband’s FOC, again “after the wild mare and family business were out of the barn” told him to file for civil divorce when the Coptic demonic feminist wife was intentionally distributing assets of the family business to her family and making malicious false sexual assault claims against franchisor representatives. These modern Coptic officials should, at least, invest equal time in studying demonic feminist inhuman behavior. As I have tried to explain earlier, pre-divorce advise from experienced fellow divorce victims is as/more necessary than that of mercenary divorce lawyers and freudian counsellors because their most profitable “professional” interest is a vicious divorce that requires three lawyers and three freudians (husband’s, wife’s, and children’s). What kind of personal interest do you have to imply this approach? What makes you, like the priest and the Levite, infer that the man laying on the Jericho Road was faking injury? See, Luke 10:30-37 (good samaritan). What makes you believe that the details of miracleseek’s plea to all of us is incredible? Would you doubt similar details from a tear soaked demonic feminist wife? No DEMONIC FEMINIST would! Take stock, fellow readers.
Yes, in the current threat and fact of rampant orthodox family destroying orthodox demonic feminist philosophy, psychology, theology, divorce, youth education, sermon censors, propaganda, etc., I believe that, until God’s patriarchal teaching and spirit has returned (hopefully not in 900 years, or more) to the Coptic and orthodox hierarchy and clergy, every orthodox diocese and orthodox parish board of ordained deacons should include a practical and spiritual sensitive surviving, former or current victim of the Coptic and/or orthodox demonic feminist spirit and/or rage; to observe, advise, and help the priest sweep the churches of these demons and guard against their return. Wouldn’t such an intent be blessed by our eternal patriarchal Father God, His Son and Holy Spirit, just as was taught by the Son and Holy Spirit to The Apostles, and passed on in their own writing to His Church by SS. Peter and Paul? What do you believe is the secret/ occult understanding of the sacrament of marriage, if we are not to believe its clear, literal bases in the Holy Bible, in the teachings of the Holy Orthodox Fathers and in the traditional (un-feminized) Coptic/Orthodox Marriage Liturgy? We are now in the beginning of the potential blessings of a nice long Apostles’ Fast. Another appropriate opportunity to return to the traditional patriarchal marriage model that SS Peter and Paul left for all of us, and that successfully served all orthodox and so called Christian churches for the first approx. 1950 years of their phenominal world growth from a few Jewish radicals’ families, until this current demonic feminist/ freudian apostacy.