Hello All,
My girlfriend and I are considering marriage and have reached a dilemma, as I am sure have been encountered numerous times before. I am Coptic orthodox and she is Catholic. I am trying to help her understand why it is important to me, for her to convert. Her concerns are valid and something I am trying to help her understand without it getting to a bad state. Most of her concerns are due to the views we have of our women (which is not something I agree with) She is also concerned with how fanatical our religion may seem, when in fact I am trying to tell her it isn’t the religion, but just the way some people are in our church, which may have given her a bad taste in her mouth. I also am looking for answers as to how similar or different we are from each other.
She feels that if she converts to our religion, she will be denouncing her God and I am not sure if that is correct, since we believe in the same God. I agree that she will be leaving her religion, but not her God, since we both believe in the same. I am searching for an understanding on how different and how similar our religions are, as well as why she should not worry about the way the church is b/c of a few people.
Also, why is it that if I marry her, without her converting, do I become banned from taking communion ever again in my church?
I will have more questions of course, but I just want to take this one step at a time.
Thanks,
Mena
Comments
Hello All,
My girlfriend and I are considering marriage and have reached a dilemma, as I am sure have been encountered numerous times before. I am Coptic orthodox and she is Catholic. I am trying to help her understand why it is important to me, for her to convert. Her concerns are valid and something I am trying to help her understand without it getting to a bad state. Most of her concerns are due to the views we have of our women (which is not something I agree with)
I don't see what "views" of women in our Church is she or you not liking.....please list specifics. Actually, it's more than just taking communion. The only reason people consider that to be the hardest act they will be banned of doing in our Church is that it's the most that they do in our Church....but it's more than that.
By breaking one of the laws of the Church, you are separating yourself from the Church entirely....not only communion of the holy Mysteries but the other sacraments too.
It's worth noting that this is not something against the Catholic church (or any others in that matter) but the rule is simply general and clear: no marriage allowed where the other spouse is of a church not in communion with our Church--full valid and declared communion between the churches leaders.
1. inequity of parties;
2. movement to establish superiority;
3. trying to explain things away as just people.
The Latin Church is in the place that it is because of Its actions of separation from the Apostolic Tradition and Patristic Teaching.
No offense, but it does not sound like she respects your background. One of the concepts of marriage is respect.
What does she want the women of our church to do so that she can draw a safe parallel?
--altar servers
--eucharistic ministers
--readers at the pulpit
I don't think that does much for women in the Latin Church other than to patronize them. It really does not give them the desired "western concept of involvement in the Church", but relegates them to a childish appeasement.
The Coptic Church is very exact. Each person has a role in the Church. The "Body" requires every portion to work properly in order for the forward movement and pace to the Eternal Father.
just we have a few different beliefs. most orthodox and catholic Christians don't even understand the differences, but it is important to be in the same church at the time of your marriage so that you can help each other in the spiritual journey.
the catholics believe their patriarch can tell the other patriarchs what to do, and we disagree with that. we say the heads of the catholic church and the orthodox churches are equal.
catholics also believe saint mary was specially conceived to be always without sin, but we believe only Jesus Christ our Saviour who was without sin. of course saint mary is the first among the saints and very important, but we do not make her equal with our Lord Jesus. she needed salvation just like we do, and although we can ask her to pray for us, it is only Jesus who saves us.
so if one of you is catholic and one orthodox, there may be disputes about which saints days to celebrate and when to fast. the practices are a bit different. also catholic liturgies are very short, and i don't think this gives you enough time to properly repent and be ready to receive the Body and Blood of our precious Lord.
but the main thing you should do together is to both pray together and ask God to show you his will. it is really important to use this opportunity to come close to God and lay down any selfish ambitions and live as God wants. maybe he doesn't want you to have the good job and the big house, but to live a simple life, helping the poor and showing His love to everyone you meet.
when you understand a lot about God's love, you realise that life with God is the best life, and serving God is the most beautiful thing, and you will be so close to God that it will be easy for you both to work out your differences and live a Christian life together.
it's better for you both to be catholic and really loving God and telling other people about Him and serving in the church than for you to be orthodox but not care very much and not fast very much and think that just having an orthodox label is enough to save you.
but of course, we are coptic, and would love very much for you both to know and love God and receive all the blessings from the church like we do.
for someone to leave another church and come to the orthodox church is a big thing (i know, i did it!) and it takes a lot of time for this. the best way to show your girlfriend how important it is, is to live how God wants you to and be devoted to serving Him and learning about Him and keeping away from sin.
it is a big effort for us to serve God, but it was a bigger effort for Jesus to suffer and die for us.
if you are ready to make the big effort, God will teach your girlfriend through you.
Depending on your girlfriend's knowledge of her own Church, it might help to discuss with her some of its stances and attitudes towards the Oriental churches, including the Coptic Orthodox Church. As far as I can remember (it's been a few years by now since I was an active RC), Orthodox Christians of both the Chalcedonian and the non-Chalcedonian stances are allowed to receive communion in (Rome-affiliated) Catholic churches, which is not something that they would be allowed if Rome thought that the Orthodox churches worshiped a different God. Mormons and other non-Trinitarians are not allowed, for just this reason.
Of course, no Orthodox Christian is allowed to receive from a Rome-affiliated church, but at least from your girlfriend's side that particular objection does not hold water, since the RC church believes that it worships the same God as the OC does. And there are plenty of reasons why a RC should become Orthodox. I'd list them here, but there are too many, other people here know them much better, and I am incredibly biased. ;)
esp. as my lunch break on the night shift is now over and (hopefully) father peter is still sleeping.
there are still other people in america who are still awake and of course, those in australia are already up, but i think you are a good source of relevant information.
:)
My wife and I are former Roman Catholics who are now Eastern Orthodox. I was received (Chrismated) into the Orthodox Church on Epiphany 2000. She was received in December 2008. Her biggest challenges was the bad rep Puerto Rican men have (I am PRican and she is Guyanese) and the term "Allah" was used in our Antiochian Church. She realized not all PRican men fell into that ugly stereotype since I've always treated her with respect and she enjoyed how warm our Church community is. The famed Middle Eastern hospitality won her over as well the open arm acceptance of her person, convert or not. My priest explained to her "Allah" is the general Arabic term for "God". I prefer "Rabena". Now we are happily Orthodox. She literally drags me out of bed Sunday mornings because she cannot wait for Divine Liturgy ( ;)!
So hopefully your family has treated her well so her worries can be quelled. The RCC Church has a deeper appreciation of things Orthodox since icons, patristics and catechetical credit are noticed. The RCC Catechism has alot of references of the Divine Liturgy and Orthodox history (one reason that led me "East"). There's tons of materials online concerning Faith differences between Orthodoxy and RCism. Monastisicm has its roots in the Egyptian Desert (St. Paul of Thebes and St. Anthony of Egypt). St. John Cassian was one of many "Western" Christians who drank from the fountain of the East to enrich Western monasticism.
My wife and I still pray the Holy Rosary together (with our priest's
permission) which is a RC form of devotion. My mother in Law and my mom (+2011) prayed the Rosary together in a nursing home (Mom in law, in English and my mom in Spanish). We pray it in a modified form with Orthodox prayers. But speak to a priest and God bless you both! Hope this helps.
This is not a condemnation against all Greek Orthodox, just a note on the history of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, and to let you know that the Greeks are not the chosen people of God. Through faith and adoption as sons, we all become the children of God. Do you think God cares whether the patriarch holding the candle is Greek, Arab, or Chinese? Lets get real. Thanks
[quote author=ELLADITSA link=topic=11429.msg138998#msg138998 date=1307247987]
We are the truth the pillar and with no dogmas or heresies. This is why in the Greek orthodox church we are proud to receive the light. All other orthodox follow us too. This is why we are all called Orthodox. Ορθο (ΟΡΘΟ) Ortho means correct in Greek. To believe in something the right way. No the Greek Patriarche is not the same thing. He is just a respectful man who has a stronger connection to God. To be a Patriarche is no easy task, you must have shown some divine connection. This is why only the Patriarche receives the light where Jesus was buried. Why the Greek Patriarche. well Ask God because this cannot be explained. Jesus said " My name will be glorified" when he saw the Greeks come towards him. Its something he felt. Israeli guards and many others have been investigating for tricks and gadgets for centuries and still cannot explain it themselves. There is no trick to this. We are chosen by Jesus . This you must ask him when you meet him to why only the Greeks. I really do not believe there are tricks to this and many do feel there are because they envy that fact the Greek Patriarche is the only one that receives the light.
I don't understand why you are getting such a girl to convert. What for?? If you love her because for her relationship with Christ, why ask her to convert??
if you are insisting to THIS extent on a wife as being Coptic Orthodox, why are you dating a catholic girl for?? I don't understand this mentality.
Also, most priests (if they are noble and wise) would not accept that a girl becomes Orthodox JUST FOR marriage. That's totally unacceptable.
Secondly, if she is Catholic and is practicing, you have to respect this. If she is NOT convinced about your Coptic Church - why insist for??
You love someone because of their relationship with Christ, yet ultimately what u are saying is that you don't accept them.
Its usually a disaster when a catholic becomes Orthodox like this, or in this way. If she is not convinced with our Church, forget it. If she hates the way our congregation EXPRESS their "orthodox faith" - and she thinks it IS fanatical - maybe you ought to take that into consideration. When you have kids who will grow up in the Orthodox faith, SHE WILL HATE YOU for allowing them to be influenced amongst Coptic Christians who she sees as "fanatical".
You will be bannned from communion from the orthodox Church - because they will not recognise your marriage IF you get married in the Catholic Church.
But WHY on earth are you dating a Catholic IF your criteria was to marry an Orthodox?? What's the point??
What is it about the Catholic Church that you don't like???
Congrats Mena! It seems your fiance has some cultural and religious issues she needs to have resolved so she can be confident in her wedding. She wants to know she will be respected as your wife and as a sister in Christ. She (or you or both) may need to speak with a Coptic priest about this.
My wife and I are former Roman Catholics who are now Eastern Orthodox. I was received (Chrismated) into the Orthodox Church on Epiphany 2000. She was received in December 2008. Her biggest challenges was the bad rep Puerto Rican men have (I am PRican and she is Guyanese) and the term "Allah" was used in our Antiochian Church. She realized not all PRican men fell into that ugly stereotype since I've always treated her with respect and she enjoyed how warm our Church community is. The famed Middle Eastern hospitality won her over as well the open arm acceptance of her person, convert or not. My priest explained to her "Allah" is the general Arabic term for "God". I prefer "Rabena". Now we are happily Orthodox. She literally drags me out of bed Sunday mornings because she cannot wait for Divine Liturgy ( ;)!
So hopefully your family has treated her well so her worries can be quelled. The RCC Church has a deeper appreciation of things Orthodox since icons, patristics and catechetical credit are noticed. The RCC Catechism has alot of references of the Divine Liturgy and Orthodox history (one reason that led me "East"). There's tons of materials online concerning Faith differences between Orthodoxy and RCism. Monastisicm has its roots in the Egyptian Desert (St. Paul of Thebes and St. Anthony of Egypt). St. John Cassian was one of many "Western" Christians who drank from the fountain of the East to enrich Western monasticism.
My wife and I still pray the Holy Rosary together (with our priest's
permission) which is a RC form of devotion. My mother in Law and my mom (+2011) prayed the Rosary together in a nursing home (Mom in law, in English and my mom in Spanish). We pray it in a modified form with Orthodox prayers. But speak to a priest and God bless you both! Hope this helps.
Boricua,
How are you? Long time no chat! lol
The Rosary is nice. We pray it also! We say the same words as them in our Church. If you read the prayers in Kiahk, its exactly the same Hail Mary.
The question is this:
a) Do you accept that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son? Filoque?
b) Do you accept the dogma of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Do you accept the dogma of purgatory??
I personally love the Catholic Church. I've never denied that, but why I'm Orthodox is very simple. I don't really care about those dogmas... neither do Catholics - that's not the point, although i disagree with them. The point is that the RC is a bit weired in many aspects that I find a bit dangerous: The different communities there are preaching a gospel literally different to each other. One believes in the Charismatic spirituality - praying in tongues, and another is DEAD against it. Yet BOTH these communities are part of the RC. Wow!
So, for me, its LESS of a headache to be Orthodox. Having said that, being Orthodox makes you backward compatible. I.e. the Catholics accept our baptism, but we don't accept theirs. Therefore, they welcome you to pray with them, but they are not welcomed to partake of our Communion.
Menas,
You will be bannned from communion from the orthodox Church - because they will not recognise your marriage IF you get married in the Catholic Church.
The RCC recognizes this issue, too, and for that reason usually insist that the couple get married in the Orthodox church. An acquaintance of mine who is RC and married a Russian Orthodox woman got married in a Russian Orthodox church for exactly that reason.
Personally, I like the Coptic Orthodox rule of not marrying outside of the communion...though I probably won't like it as much if I meet a nice Catholic or other Christian lady. ;)
But you are right: There's no point to those kinds of relationships if you ultimately can't marry the person. How long can we carry on in relationships that go nowhere? That never leads to anything good. I've even known people who changed religions for a girl...what stupid behavior! And if the relationship doesn't work out, or even if it does and you're married forever until one of you dies...you still have to face God on the last day, and explain why you chose someone else over Him. I figure I've got enough to answer for without adding that! :-[
But Russian saint of 19 century Ignatiy Brenchaninov in the book"The word about the death" wrote that catholics and muslims will go to the Hell.
Real orthodox i think must feel very big difference between orhtodox and catholics in all point of life.
but no-one except God can say who goes to hell.
if someone knows a little about God and worships Him as well as he can, and is kind and helps the poor and is humble and patient, that person is closer to God than someone who has been an orthodox Christian for many years yet does not attend church or pray or love his neighbour.
I know that I deserve Hell because I do not live always as I should in union with God. It is union with God which counts.
This causes me a great hesitancy in even considering the question of who is going to Hell. It is not one that should trouble us, except to be committed to sharing our own Faith and Life. If we are worried that people will be lost and are doing nothing to save them then surely we are the ones who are lost.
No, we are not in communion; the Roman Catholic still have dogmas we disagree with, and stop giving false ideas.