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Proposed union of Coptic Orthodox with Greeks in 1861

peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
I am interested in this period for a variety of reasons.

I know the general, summary information of the proposed union between the Greeks and Copts in Egypt during the Patriarchate of Cyril IV, and about his murder in 1861.

But does anyone have access to detailed information, in Arabic I guess, from the period which describes what was actually proposed. I understand that when the Greek patriarch went outside Egypt he left his own community in the care of Patriarch Cyril IV.

Where can I find very detailed information about all of this?

Father Peter

Comments

  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    As an introduction, Father, you may try Iris Habib El-Masry's book:  "The Story of the Copts".  It is not the most detailed account, but it will give at least a bibliography and footnotes in which to explore.
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    Thanks for the reference, ILSM.

    I have checked her second volume and it describes the events in a summary manner. I wonder what the Papal archives might contain. I am interested in this topic because it shows that the possibility of union with the Greek Orthodox is not something new at all, but a matter which is considered regularly in the Church, and usually in a positive sense.

    Does anyone know of an Arabic biography of Pope Kyrillos IV. I mean a detailed scholarly one.

    Father Peter
  • aidanaidan
    Bless Father

    You may also be interested in overtures made by the Russians at about the same time.

    http://eocf.free.fr/copte_russe.htm
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    I would definitely try the Coptic Encyclopedia.  If I remember correctly, that topic was discussed in one of the articles.
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    Thanks for these suggestions. I will follow them up.

    Father Peter
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    Where can one find the Coptic Encyclopedia?
    It's not in stock on amazon.com!
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Rev. Fr. Athanasius Farag of St. Anthony and St. Mina Coptic Orthodox Church in East Rutherford, NJ is a good source.

    I believe MacMillan did the publishing.
  • TITLTITL
    Does this count: http://www.copticheritage.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Coptic_Encyclopedia&file=index
  • TITLTITL
    Silly me, that's just Coptic music.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Fr Peter,
    I've been trying to find any reference to the proposed union in 1861. I know you listed a reference to Greenwood's Account of a Visit to the Christian Churches in Cairo. But outside of this one reference, I could not find anything else on the Union of 1861. Have you had any luck finding additional material?

    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10534.msg128008#msg128008 date=1295907268]
    I know the general, summary information of the proposed union between the Greeks and Copts in Egypt during the Patriarchate of Cyril IV, and about his murder in 1861.
    In Greenwood's account, there is no murder just an untimely death at the age of 45. Where did you read about a murder?


    Where can I find very detailed information about all of this?

    I checked the Coptic Encyclopedia. There are no details of any union. I will continue to look. Thanks.
  • joegjoeg
    Pope Cyril IV is included in Fr. Tadros Malaty's Encyclopedia of the Fathers of the Church and her Saints (ض-م), pages 306-317. There is mention of his poisoning and that the British authorities were ultimately behind his murder.
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    There are lots of references to his murder from many sources.

    When the Greek Patriarch used to leave Egypt he would leave his community in the care of Pope Kyrillos IV.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    [quote author=JG link=topic=10534.msg140829#msg140829 date=1309770607]
    Pope Cyril IV is included in Fr. Tadros Malaty's Encyclopedia of the Fathers of the Church and her Saints (ض-م), pages 306-317. There is mention of his poisoning and that the British authorities were ultimately behind his murder.

    JG, I can't find Fr. Tadros' book you referenced. Do you have a copy or is there a copy online that I can look at?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10534.msg140845#msg140845 date=1309805273]
    [quote author=JG link=topic=10534.msg140829#msg140829 date=1309770607]
    Pope Cyril IV is included in Fr. Tadros Malaty's Encyclopedia of the Fathers of the Church and her Saints (ض-م), pages 306-317. There is mention of his poisoning and that the British authorities were ultimately behind his murder.

    JG, I can't find Fr. Tadros' book you referenced. Do you have a copy or is there a copy online that I can look at?

    there is an account here i read: http://st-takla.org/Saints/Coptic-Synaxarium-Orthodox-Saints-Biography-00-Coptic-Orthodox-Popes/Life-of-Coptic-Pope-110-Pope-Cyril-IV_.html
    (it's in arabic)
    in it, they say that the goal of the Pope was to unify ALL THE ORTHODOX CHURCHES rather than only with the greeks.....and i guess that is believed to be so because of the good relations with the pope and the Armenians in egypt at that time (who helped on the issue of his ordination as a Metropolitan and than a Pope)
    which i think is taken from Abouan Tadrous' book (which i can't find online either).
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    [quote author=JG link=topic=10534.msg140829#msg140829 date=1309770607]
    There is mention of his poisoning and that the British authorities were ultimately behind his murder.


    Isn't a little strange that the Coptic story of Pope Cyril IV's murder is exactly opposite of what Rev Greenwood cautions the British to be careful with the Coptic church? Neither story have corrobating evidence (other than people repeating each story). I don't think either account has a lot of weight. How can we know for sure that there was an attempt for union between the Greek and Coptic Churches?

    Regarding the murder itself, it is just as curious that some claim Pope Cyril IV was murdered by poison in 1861 and another attempt was done to poison Pope Cyril V in 11/17/1874 (reference abounasalama.org). There is no real evidence other than rumors passed down orally. This sounds more like a Shakespearean tragedy or a Hollywood movie, rather than scholarly history. And the Coptic historians Aziz Attiya and Iris Habib al-Massry do not describe these incidents. Why? Because they didn't know it? I doubt it. I think they dismissed these stories as rumors.

    I'd like to see actual references either by Pope Cyril or Pope Calliticus about the proposed union or a corrobative evidence for the British account. Any body wish to contribute?
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    From Otto F.A. Meinardus' Two Thousand Years of Coptic Christianity:

    Throughout his pontificate, Cyril consolidated the Christian communities in Egypt, thus effecting some understanding between the Greek, Coptic, and Anglican communions. His dynamic character and his efficient thoroughness soon attracted the attention of the authorities, who had him quietly removed. He died on January 31, 1861.

    (p.70)
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=10534.msg140851#msg140851 date=1309809667]
    From Otto F.A. Meinardus' Two Thousand Years of Coptic Christianity:

    Throughout his pontificate, Cyril consolidated the Christian communities in Egypt, thus effecting some understanding between the Greek, Coptic, and Anglican communions. His dynamic character and his efficient thoroughness soon attracted the attention of the authorities, who had him quietly removed. He died on January 31, 1861.

    (p.70)


    This proves my point. Another historian saying Pope Cyril was not murdered, but quietly removed (?) by the Ottoman authorities. I don't know why Meinardus says he was quietly removed. Cyril IV died at 45 years of age. In addition, "consolidating Christian communities" does not raise the level of a union.

    Thank you for sharing Unworthy. I hope someone can find more references.
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    Quietly removed is English for murdered.

    I'm not sure why you are so resistant to this fact of history?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10534.msg140863#msg140863 date=1309813398]
    Quietly removed is English for murdered.

    I'm not sure why you are so resistant to this fact of history?

    because imikhail is using this as a bases for the bringing of some greek hymns in our Church.....which he asks to be removed.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10534.msg140863#msg140863 date=1309813398]
    Quietly removed is English for murdered.

    I'm not sure why you are so resistant to this fact of history?

    What a strange idiom to describe murder! Would it not be better to give description of the event then to simply imply murder? This weakens his credibility as a scholar.

    Anyway, it's not that I'm resistant to this fact of history, I'm resistant to claim it as history without any real evidence. This problem is very prevalent in the various histories of Chalcedon and post-Chalcedonian events. You, Fr Peter, know more than any of us how modern Chalcdonians recite "facts of history" that the Orientals are heretics. We've discuss the Trisagion and John Damascus in another forum. These false histories become the foundation of stereotypes and hatred.

    This supposed union may be true. And hopefully it is. It would be a sign of fraternal love and unanswered questions of why it didn't occur.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10534.msg140864#msg140864 date=1309813561]
    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10534.msg140863#msg140863 date=1309813398]
    Quietly removed is English for murdered.

    I'm not sure why you are so resistant to this fact of history?

    because imikhail is using this as a bases for the bringing of some greek hymns in our Church.....which he asks to be removed.


    This isn't really the reason. Even if the union did happen it remains important to define what actually resulted from the union. Some GB supporters argue that even if a union did happen, it was a union of faith, not linguistics. Even Pope Cyril IV attempted a union, it doesn't necessarily prove that Pope Cyril wanted to change Coptic. In other words, the union of the churches is not the cause of the change in Coptic pronunciation. What I'm really trying to show is that we should not make claims without solid evidence, whether historical claims of supposed events or linguistic claims of artificial change. And even if Pope Cyril did attempt a union, and even if Pope Cyril told Eryian Moftah to change the pronunciation, it still doesn't mean we should remove Greek hymns or revert to OB.

    Anyway, this thread is about the actual union and our interpretation of good evidence.
  • imikhailimikhail

    In other words, the union of the churches is not the cause of the change in Coptic pronunciation. What I'm really trying to show is that we should not make claims without solid evidence, whether historical claims of supposed events or linguistic claims of artificial change.

    The union attempt resulted in adding Greek hymns to our heritage. The Greeks pronounce their alphabet differently than the Copts. At that time, Aryan Afendi made a critical mistake that resulted in changing the sounds of the Coptic alphabet. He assumed that the Greeks are best to tell us how we should say the Coptic alphabet since it comes from Greek and the Greek language is still used.

    So, we changed our alphabet to suit the Greek pronunciation.

    All of this is explained in the El Adella Alrabteya ...

  • mabsootamabsoota
    it is typical upper class 19th century english to use an understatement to talk about a shocking or distasteful subject. this is called a euphemism.
    for example, if a lady said 'i am going to powder my nose', it means she needs to go and pee.
    a man might go to 'wash his hands'.
    'quietly removed' is a euphemism for murder.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    I just came across this sermon by Bishop Suriel and thought I would share. He specifically mentions the death (murder) of Pope Cyril IV.

    Forward to the 10:45 mark. He's pretty blunt about it.
  • imikhailimikhail
    One source that has written about this union is:

    Bulletin of Mari Mena 1952 page 52 by Yassa Abd Al Messih  (A page from the History of Copts)
  • jfarag92jfarag92
    Here is a list of coptic history journals: http://www.coptologia.com/journal.html

    Volume XII or XIII seem like they would be the most likely to have the info you want, otherwise it is a great resource
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